Perfect Storm

[Amphictyonis]

I'm not so sure I'd call it perfect because me and millions of others are going to be hurt by this....gas prices are spiking and the states 9in America) are getting ready for massive cuts to social programs nation wide. Gas prices went up 15 cents in just 1 week and rising. Any talk of so called "economic recovery" that was going on will now stop as people will stop consuming as much due to high prices at the pump.

This could all translate into some very fucked up times in advanced capitalist nations as most of the second/third world is experiencing. I think we're set to really feel the repercussions of this global crisis. In my opinion it's time for us to really get serious in the community. Things are going to be very interesting over the coming months.

[Proukunin]

I think now people are going to finally fucking wake up. Hopefully the demonstrations send shock waves through Washington.

And hopefully it is socialism that takes hold, not some phoney social democracy or liberalism.

[thesadmafioso]

The rising prices of commodities certainly are alarming and they could very well cause some general and vague social unrest, but I think you are taking quite the leap of faith by calling this a perfect storm and implying that it will have some sort of immediate effect upon the political structure of the US.

[Proukunin]

I don't think it would be immediate. American people are always the last to catch on to 'revolution'. But the collective mind in america is surely ready for change. Real Change

Now with that comes the expectations of what kind of society the majority of the american people want and hopefully they don't choose the path of Tea Party Conservatism!

[bcbm]

The rising prices of commodities certainly are alarming and they could very well cause some general and vague social unrest, but I think you are taking quite the leap of faith by calling this a perfect storm and implying that it will have some sort of immediate effect upon the political structure of the US.

things that would have seemed impossible at the end of last year are now very possible, from the threat of complete destruction for the public sector unions to the resistance against such. things can change fast and as the economic conditions worsen they will change even faster.

[thesadmafioso]

things that would have seemed impossible at the end of last year are now very possible, from the threat of complete destruction for the public sector unions to the resistance against such. things can change fast and as the economic conditions worsen they will change even faster.

Whenever I hear this sort of discussion I can't help but recall Lenin's rhetoric of impending socialist revolution in the early 1920's, just has the same sort of feel to it. I understand that these deteriorating conditions could very well lead to the occasional protest, but that sort of situation is quite far off from being revolutionary.

[bcbm]

Whenever I hear this sort of discussion I can't help but recall Lenin's rhetoric of impending socialist revolution in the early 1920's, just has the same sort of feel to it. I understand that these deteriorating conditions could very well lead to the occasional protest, but that sort of situation is quite far off from being revolutionary.

i'm not talking about impending socialist revolution, i'm saying that things can change very rapidly and i don't think the combination of economic environmental and other factors we are seeing right now should be easily dismissed. i don't think these times are "revolutionary" but i think they are interesting, more so than having "the occasional protest."

[Rusty Shackleford]

Whenever I hear this sort of discussion I can't help but recall Lenin's rhetoric of impending socialist revolution in the early 1920's, just has the same sort of feel to it. I understand that these deteriorating conditions could very well lead to the occasional protest, but that sort of situation is quite far off from being revolutionary.
and before 1917, Lenin said he would not see a revolution in his life time.

[DaringMehring]

Whenever I hear this sort of discussion I can't help but recall Lenin's rhetoric of impending socialist revolution in the early 1920's, just has the same sort of feel to it. I understand that these deteriorating conditions could very well lead to the occasional protest, but that sort of situation is quite far off from being revolutionary.

You are like a newborn puppy waving your head around looking for revolution, but since your eyes are still closed you won't recognize it unless it lands right under your nose . [apologies to Lenin for borrowing]

Lenin was correct in his assessment of the revolutionary potential in the phase in which he died. Italy 1919, Germany 1919, 1923, an ongoing struggle in China through 1949, German counter-revolution in 1933, Spain 1936, France was falling apart in the 30s, even in the USA there were mass strikes and violent confrontations. This phase culminated in the revolutionary outburst at the end of WWII, in Greece, Former Yugoslavia, etc.

Today we are at the front end of a long period which will be similar, based on the inescapable laws of capitalism. Right now there are all-out struggles in a number of countries. But still you talk about "the occasional protest" and the situation being "far from revolutionary" -- sorry, but the objective factors are in place and the problem is mostly subjective. And your orientation is actually a roadblock on the necessary subjective development.

[thesadmafioso]

I am not looking around for a revolution, I just presumed that the topics title implied such revolution or at least a comparable upheaval in society and thus I used the term in my initial response. I really don't think that making that connection is really too controversial either, given the fact that this topic is titled "Perfect Storm".

And as for the impending revolution Lenin spoke of, the fact that conditions arose decades after his death and that most of them failed does not amount to much of a counterpoint really. It doesn't change the fact that he was largely wrong in his analysis. You have to keep in mind that he literally thought revolution would sweep across Europe immediately after Russia's revolution, he presumed it to be a necessary and inevitable step for socialism.

I don't deny the possibility that revolutionary conditions could possibly arise in the future, I simply am questioning the plausibility of their short term emergence in developed capitalist nations for the time being.

And just out of curiosity more than anything, do you have a source for Lenin making that comment Shackleford? From what I have read on Lenin I received the notion that he was quite anxious for revolution to occur and thus it would logically follow that he would presume it to be at least a possibility.

[DaringMehring]

I am not looking around for a revolution, I just presumed that the topics title implied such revolution or at least a comparable upheaval in society and thus I used the term in my initial response. I really don't think that making that connection is really too controversial either, given the fact that this topic is titled "Perfect Storm".


I mostly just wanted to steal a phrase from Lenin. But at the same time, you express a kind of defeatism about revolution.



And as for the impending revolution Lenin spoke of, the fact that conditions arose decades after his death and that most of them failed does not amount to much of a counterpoint really. It doesn't change the fact that he was largely wrong in his analysis. You have to keep in mind that he literally thought revolution would sweep across Europe immediately after Russia's revolution, he presumed it to be a necessary and inevitable step for socialism.


First of all the conditions were in place before his death, as Germany, Italy, and Hungary 1919 show.

His analysis stemmed from the Marxist understanding of capitalism, including the tendency of the rate of profit to decline, as well as mapping the trajectory of the class struggle.

He was right that is was a necessary step for socialism. But nobody could ever say in advance if the revolutions would succeed and the failure of the German, Spanish, etc. revolutions was devastation for socialism.



I don't deny the possibility that revolutionary conditions could possibly arise in the future, I simply am questioning the plausibility of their short term emergence in developed capitalist nations for the time being.


Will a revolution happen in the near future? It is hard to say, these things can flare out of nowhere (look at France's big strikes this year). Maybe it is unlikely, but

is it possible? Yes.
is it socially necessary? Yes.

Therefore, your eschewing is counter-productive. Our job as revolutionary socialists is to fight for the revolution, not to reaffirm smug bourgeois conceits about revolution being a myth.

[Amphictyonis]

The rising prices of commodities certainly are alarming and they could very well cause some general and vague social unrest, but I think you are taking quite the leap of faith by calling this a perfect storm and implying that it will have some sort of immediate effect upon the political structure of the US.


http://www.revleft.com/vb/countdown-california-t150843/index.html


I don't see a socialist revolution taking place at all but a small step towards it will be driving a wedge between the accepted ideological paradigm. I've seen posters on here post concerning opposing Tea Party idiots at recent union events but the actual enemy...the real threat to workers isnt some idiot fringe Tea Party population it's the continued acceptance of the false idea. We need to take this opportunity to push the political paradigm further to the left so when the next crisis hits the democrats/republicans will be off of the peoples minds and socialism will be on the peoples minds No I don't think a socialist revolution in America is just around the corner- never said that. What I do think is the mentality people like you have can be chipped away at with an ideological chisel during these coming hard times. (After reading my post in the thread I quoted) I'd like to know what you think of the Democrats HealthCare law now since Obama is showing the states how to cut tens of billions of dollars in each respective state from Medicare/Medicaid before the federal cuts of hundreds of billions nationwide take place when this law goes into full effect.

What we need to do is rid the left of people like you if we're going to have any future chance at socialism. People too stupid to see the reality right in front of their face. People, political infants really, lulled into a trance by whatever pied piper the Democrats throw in front of you. 5 dollar a gallon gas, no economic recovery, wages and jobs being cut left and right and you're applauding the new healthcare law as "good for workers". Go away already.

(Angry post is angry)

[bcbm]

What we need to do is rid the left of people like you if we're going to have any future chance at socialism. People too stupid to see the reality right in front of their face. People, political infants really, lulled into a trance by whatever pied piper the Democrats throw in front of you. 5 dollar a gallon gas, no economic recovery, wages and jobs being cut left and right and you're applauding the new healthcare law as "good for workers". Go away already.

this is both unnecessary and completely untrue. i think this kind of attitude is more problematic than people being cautious in their optimism, not that i give a shit about the fate of "the left" which could best serves its own ends by liquidating itself.

[Amphictyonis]

this is both unnecessary and completely untrue. i think this kind of attitude is more problematic than people being cautious in their optimism, not that i give a shit about the fate of "the left" which could best serves its own ends by liquidating itself.

We can agree to disagree on the topic of Sadmafioso and his friend Numb3rs. They display a sort of shoot yourself in the foot support for the Democrat party. It's a problem in America- too many people buy into what is essentially a one party system, a plutocracy. In the coming months this plutocracy should be exposed. We have a good opportunity to expose the conflict between capital and labor but this wont happen if the Democrat party coops and waters down our efforts as they usually do. If you can't see the marginalizing effect Obama has on "the left" then you're having too many drinks on the weekend. Hell, I could drink a bottle of moonshine and see it :)

I'm aware I'm being rude to Sadmafioso but I became fed up with the incestuous relationship many of us have with liberals long ago and find it hard to contain my frustration at times. I'm not ashamed to lambaste people who I see as a detriment to the overall goal of socialism.

If you want to defend him then can you explain why a socialist would think the privatization of healthcare whilst cutting hundreds of billions from public healthcare during the worst recession in our lifetime is a good thing. And with people like that it's not just healthcare but most issues they end up supporting because they're too emotionally involved in the MsM bourgeois political story line. This is a problem we have but if you refuse to acknowledge it there's nothing I can do about it.

If us three were talking in person some of this might be going on:

jocRd-aajW0

[Reznov]

I think conservatives have more of a chance for change than socialists.

The Tea Party is hugely popular in my area, while I am probably the only self identifying Leftist.

[Amphictyonis]

I think conservatives have more of a chance for change than socialists.

The Tea Party is hugely popular in my area, while I am probably the only self identifying Leftist.

Just wait a couple months when states start cutting education, healthcare, jobs, wages and social programs left and right while gas prices spike. This will effect the Tea idiots as well but the Tea Party people are a problem as far as buying into the false dichotomy thats presented on FOX news just as liberals buy into the MSNBC story line. Both fail to see the conflict between labor and capital. Both are 'brainwashed' in a sense. In the end it doesn't matter if a democrat or republican is in office the two parties simply represent different capitalists. Much of the time they represent the same capitalists. I see people who get gung ho behind democrats no different than I see Tea Party people.....as a detriment to socialism. They can throw around all the Noam Chomsky quotes in the world and it wont change the fact democrats have been our achilles heel. Democrats are, in my eyes, the Benedict Arnold party "for" the working class. One giant red herring distracting workers from this:


bvzj5g0nCXs

[bcbm]

We can agree to disagree on the topic of Sadmafioso and his friend Numb3rs. They display a sort of shoot yourself in the foot support for the Democrat party. It's a problem in America- too many people buy into what is essentially a one party system, a plutocracy. In the coming months this plutocracy should be exposed. We have a good opportunity to expose the conflict between capital and labor but this wont happen if the Democrat party coops and waters down our efforts as they usually do. If you can't see the marginalizing effect Obama has on "the left" then you're having too many drinks on the weekend. Hell, I could drink a bottle of moonshine and see it :)

i don't think the democrats will be able to co-opt much because i think capitalism is in trouble and the state will be working overtime in its role of managing the catastrophe. as it stands they are pulling out all the punches in a push for austerity that is meeting with a good deal of opposition and i think they're quickly coming to a "rock and a hard place" scenario- they can't afford to maintain the welfare state and maintain themselves as a wealthy elite. from this position there isn't a lot of "ideological" leverage and i think the situation globally could become increasing unmanageable.


I'm aware I'm being rude to Sadmafioso but I became fed up with the incestuous relationship many of us have with liberals long ago and find it hard to contain my frustration at times. I'm not ashamed to lambaste people who I see as a detriment to the overall goal of socialism.

if you think socialism needs to be won by winning people i don't see how being rude to people with a slightly different viewpoint furthers that goal.

[Amphictyonis]

i don't think the democrats will be able to co-opt much because i think capitalism is in trouble and the state will be working overtime in its role of managing the catastrophe. as it stands they are pulling out all the punches in a push for austerity that is meeting with a good deal of opposition and i think they're quickly coming to a "rock and a hard place" scenario- they can't afford to maintain the welfare state and maintain themselves as a wealthy elite. from this position there isn't a lot of "ideological" leverage and i think the situation globally could become increasing unmanageable.



if you think socialism needs to be won by winning people i don't see how being rude to people with a slightly different viewpoint furthers that goal.

I'm going to criticize him and his smug friend anytime they do something as stupid as to defend the new healthcare law. It's not like, in the other thread, they were being humble and kind about their idiocy they were insulting people left and right. Quit acting like Mother Teressa because I've been posting here long enough now to know thats not the case. If you want to be kind to liberals and hold their hands softly in fields of flowers and reform go right ahead. I'm 33 years old and have had enough of it. Been a socialist for 15 years and have seen so much of our efforts squandered by aligning with liberals it makes me dizzy. I haven't seen an opportunity such as the one we have now in my lifetime. I take it seriously, sorry. Now isnt the time to pussyfoot with liberals when discussing the reality of the economic/political system. It would obviously alienate us if all socialists took my aggressive position but consider me and people like me the bad cop (yes there's more of us). Be the good cop if you want I'm just too fed up to play that role. Especially on a revolutionary socialist forum. If I wanted to correspond with liberals I'd be on Daily Kos or some facebook group. Besides the criticism you're throwing my way...this...
i don't see how being rude to people with a slightly different viewpoint furthers that goal. ...could apply to just about every post on this site. There are disagreements on minor issues abound. I don't take part in the Marxist/Anarchist divide but I do draw the line at support for the democrats. Sorry. :( I'll try not to be rude.

[thesadmafioso]

I mostly just wanted to steal a phrase from Lenin. But at the same time, you express a kind of defeatism about revolution.



First of all the conditions were in place before his death, as Germany, Italy, and Hungary 1919 show.

His analysis stemmed from the Marxist understanding of capitalism, including the tendency of the rate of profit to decline, as well as mapping the trajectory of the class struggle.

He was right that is was a necessary step for socialism. But nobody could ever say in advance if the revolutions would succeed and the failure of the German, Spanish, etc. revolutions was devastation for socialism.



Will a revolution happen in the near future? It is hard to say, these things can flare out of nowhere (look at France's big strikes this year). Maybe it is unlikely, but

is it possible? Yes.
is it socially necessary? Yes.

Therefore, your eschewing is counter-productive. Our job as revolutionary socialists is to fight for the revolution, not to reaffirm smug bourgeois conceits about revolution being a myth.

Political reality simply does currently allow for any sort of substantial revolution or any comparable upheaval in the worlds developed nations at the moment, that is not defeatism that is realism.

I am certainly not disagreeing with the general basis of Lenin's analysis, I am simply saying that his time frame was off a good bit.

I never doubted the possibility of revolution entirely nor did I say that it is not socially necessary, I merely am trying to introduce a bit of reality into these lofty and for the moment unobtainable objectives. Call it defeatism if you must, but that does not change the nature of the current political environment in the worlds developed nations and it really doesn't have any practical impact.

[thesadmafioso]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/countdown-california-t150843/index.html

No I don't think a socialist revolution in America is just around the corner- never said that. What I do think is the mentality people like you have can be chipped away at with an ideological chisel during these coming hard times. (After reading my post in the thread I quoted) I'd like to know what you think of the Democrats HealthCare law now since Obama is showing the states how to cut tens of billions of dollars in each respective state from Medicare/Medicaid before the federal cuts of hundreds of billions nationwide take place when this law goes into full effect.

What we need to do is rid the left of people like you if we're going to have any future chance at socialism. People too stupid to see the reality right in front of their face. People, political infants really, lulled into a trance by whatever pied piper the Democrats throw in front of you. 5 dollar a gallon gas, no economic recovery, wages and jobs being cut left and right and you're applauding the new healthcare law as "good for workers". Go away already.

(Angry post is angry)

Your title is rather strongly worded, as I have already said one could easily draw the connotative value of it implying imminent social unrest or even plausibly revolution.

Though onto the main event though, which somehow has become another debate over healthcare. You seem to be ignoring the fact that this new law will completely restructure the nature of the American health care system and that it will likely take some of the burden off of programs such as medicare and medicade. The law may not yet have taken full effect but that does not mean that preparation for its complete implementation cannot begin. Though I should be clear that I do not support these sorts of cuts, I am just saying in the current economic context that they make sense from a broader political perspective.

Here we go again with the generic Republican talking points against the Democrats. You do realize that you are essentially using arguments that have made by corporate financed right wing think tanks which were intended to further their own political objectives, right? I am fairly sure that no one here, including myself, sees the Democratic party as an ideal means of creating policy which benefits the working class, but that does not mean that they are equatable to the Republican party in every imaginable way. The moderate leftism on the American political spectrum which they represents is the only viable option to pursue given current circumstances as there is no alternative, and complaining about how defeatist it is to think otherwise will not change that. Your staunch line of uncompromising hatred towards liberalism will not achieve anything beyond a bit of applause in leftist circles, but beyond the incredibly limited scope of this audience it is entirely ineffective.

[Rafiq]

At times like these, the right wing will

1. Blame a certain ethnic group (Blacks, Immagrants, Jews, )

2. Blame a political party (Cpusa, RCP, spusa, psl, iww)

3. Less likely, blame a single person (George Soros, Obama, :laugh: bob avakian).

This is the shit that happened in Italy, and Germany as well, what we need to do, is learn from our mistakes, and actually not fuck things up this time around.

[Proukunin]

We can already see what they want to do in the congress. Caring more about getting rid of women's rights than jobs and healthcare.

Why can't Revleft start our own country?????

[Rusty Shackleford]

We can already see what they want to do in the congress. Caring more about getting rid of women's rights than jobs and healthcare.

Why can't Revleft start our own country?????
because it would spontaneously implode and turn into a bunch of secessionist republics/territories/whatevers.

[Amphictyonis]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that this new law will completely restructure the nature of the American health care systemCan anyone help me out here so I don't have to type so much? Preferably a person who has a grasp on reality? (I'm not doing a face palm right...no I'm doing a whole rub head face brain palm what the fuck are you talking about type WTF?)

[Rusty Shackleford]

alright, fine.


Where in the new law will a person be guaranteed health care? where in the law will the necessity of insurance be eliminated? where in the new law will private run health are industry be abolished? where in the new law will drugs be made affordable or free?

no where in the new law is there any form of fundamental transformation. all it did is refine the institution and make it a wee bit, if any bit at all, less exploitable. the main provision, which was a pile of shit, is even being subverted by obama himself and it was declared unconstitutional. it doesnt go into full effect until 2014

[Amphictyonis]

Here we go again with the generic Republican talking points against the Democrats. You do realize that you are essentially using arguments that have made by corporate financed right wing think tanks which were intended to further their own political objectives, right?

I just got home back from the bar and I have to say thats the funnest thing I've ever seen-



Generic Republican talking points against the Democrats

LOL

[Amphictyonis]

Your title is rather strongly worded, as I have already said one could easily draw the connotative value of it implying imminent social unrest or even plausibly revolution.

Yes, social unrest is on the way. Yes.


Though onto the main event though, which somehow has become another debate over healthcare. You seem to be ignoring the fact that this new law will completely restructure the nature of the American health care system and that it will likely take some of the burden off of programs such as medicare and medicade.

By shifting the "burden" of paying for it from the rich over to the poor. You're only highlighting your ignorance and substantiating my earlier statement, this one:


What we need to do is rid the left of people like you if we're going to have any future chance at socialism. People too stupid to see the reality right in front of their face. People, political infants really, lulled into a trance by whatever pied piper the Democrats throw in front of you. It's a restructuring of healthcare yes, you're right about that. The problem here is people like you, liberals, can't even see the reality in front of your face. The new healthcare law is just a part of the ongoing and upcoming structural adjustment program in America to make the working poor pay for this crisis. If you can't see this you have no buisness on this site- perhaps you should loom around the learning section before you post again? You and the other near sighted liberal who thanked your pathetic post.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

we can't always chose the revolution we want. If anyone has had a chance to check Michael Moore on democracynow.org this morning (starts some 28 minutes into the show), you'll have noticed a very cogent call for actions around the coup in Wisconsin. (How can I tell it's cogent? Because my knowledge of revolutionary moments comes from direct experience.)

It must have been pretty cogent, because last I heard the State House in Wisconsin was being blockaded by demonstrators who are keeping the Assembly from finalizing the bill. My hunch is, it's going to get serious.

Now, guys, you will forgive my vanity in identifying with Rosa Luxemburg, but as I said, I've seen this movie before, and like Rosa I'd rather be on the losing side out of solidarity, than go along with the short-term "winners" out of self-preservation.

So. As a small symbolic gesture of support to the high-school students in Madison, who have called for a walkout tomorrow, I am "walking out" of this blog at least for the immediate future. Maybe you guys can come up with something better in the meantime. ;)