Ritual Humiliation/Bullying in Indian colleges

[Milk Sheikh]

Someone mentioned this in another thread, so I thought I could start one here so that people could get a better idea.

It's called 'ragging' in India, bullying in the rest of the world. Though it is common in other societies, it takes a startlingly bizarre form in India; it is absolutely insane, so much so that students have killed themselves because of this.

But that's not all. Both parents and teachers are okay with this - they say it's all part of growing up. Bullying is now so common in India that anyone who questions it is treated like a wimp. Put simply, bullying is the norm in Indian society and, if you dare raise your voice against it, you're abnormal. Unbelievable!

Strangely, this happens only in Hindu dominated areas and Hindu colleges. Never in Islamic or Christian ones. Draw your own conclusions.

Milk Sheikh

[RGacky3]

Strangely, this happens only in Hindu dominated areas and Hindu colleges. Never in Islamic or Christian ones. Draw your own conclusions.


What conclusion do you draw?

Bullying happens everywhere.

[#FF0000]

Strangely, this happens only in Hindu dominated areas and Hindu colleges. Never in Islamic or Christian ones. Draw your own conclusions.

That's funny. It happens all the time over here in the US and we're not known for our huge Hindu population.

[Viet Minh]

Bullying is a horrible thing, abusing your power over another individual. That disfunction also manifests itself in other horrific ways, such as domestic abuse, rape, child abuse etc.
To me it actually epitomises the right/ left struggle, with fascists obviously in the camp of bullying and opressing weaker individuals and groups.

[ZeroNowhere]

Strangely, this happens only in Hindu dominated areas and Hindu colleges. Never in Islamic or Christian ones. Draw your own conclusions.How nice of you to let us draw our own conclusions. What a wonderful exercise in critical thinking!

[hatzel]

That's funny. It happens all the time over here in the US and we're not known for our huge Hindu population.

But but but on the Simpson's...:confused:

[ComradeMan]

This kind of thing "ragging" is not by any chance similar to "phasing" (spelling?) and all that Fraternity House bs in the US- it must therefore be down to Hinduism.:rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

The term's "hazing".

[Bud Struggle]

So the Greek Letter Frats are actually Hundu?

[hatzel]

So the Greek Letter Frats are actually Hundu?

You know what the link between Greek letters and Hinduism is? That's right. Phoenician alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet). Proof enough for a global Hindu bullying conspiracy! :lol:

[hatzel]

bully (n.) (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bully) http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/dictionary.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bully)

1530s, originally "sweetheart," applied to either sex, from Du. boel "lover, brother," probably dim. of M.H.G.buole "brother," of uncertain origin (cf. Ger. buhle "lover"). Meaning deteriorated 17c. through "fine fellow," "blusterer," to "harasser of the weak" (1680s, from bully-ruffian, 1650s). Perhaps this was by influence of bull(n.1), but a connecting sense between "lover" and "ruffian" may be in "protector of a prostitute," which was one sense of bully (though not specifically attested until 1706). The verb is first attested 1710. The expression meaning "worthy, jolly, admirable" (esp. in 1864 U.S. slang bully for you!) is first attested 1680s, and preserves an earlier, positive sense of the word.



You learn something new every day! :confused:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Hindus have been known to have large amounts of harassment in their schools for centuries. And by hindus I mean pretty much fucking everyone. Milk Sheik, were do you get this impression that Christian/Muslim schools are exempt? Have you studied the subject in depth?


BTW, learned the other day that India has more muslims than Pakistan. Interesting.

[PhoenixAsh]

Whoah....no this has NOTHING to do with hazing....nor has it anything to do with any normal form of bullying.

Ragging is hazing on steroids++ involving physical mistreatment and often forms of torture such as electric shocks being applied (etc), beatings, sexual assault, outright rape and sexual humiliation...and is designated as a serious violation of human rights by several NGO's...and the UN.

Its practice has led to numerous deaths in the last years hundreds of hospitalisations and to hundreds of ragging victims being institutionalised for severe mental and physical trauma.

So...no...it is nothing like hazing.

And indeed it seems to more prevalent in Hindu schools as the vast mayority of these incidents take place in these institutions. Though I can not say that it does or does not take place in Christian or Muslim schools....it does atleast appear that its a very small % of the total number of ragging cases.

[Milk Sheikh]

*Sighs*

Bullying may be common in other societies, but it's always, yes always, recognized as wrong. Nobody ever tries to justify it by saying it's part of growing up, it's fun etc. etc. In Hindu societies, bullying is the norm rather than an aberration.

I hope people can see the difference. Bullying in other places is taken seriously, bullies treated with contempt. But in Hindu society, bullying is seen as harmless fun, and bullies themselves are seen as 'cool' people. Black is white, and vice versa.

Look at it this way. There is a society A where killings are condemned but they happen just the same. There's another society B where killings happen all the time because they're never condemned even by the authorities. So even though killings are common to both societies, B has a bigger problem because a 'wrong' is not even recognized as wrong. At least, A makes the basic effort in seeing wrong as wrong, killing as wrong.

Hope people can now understand better.

[Bud Struggle]

Well I can't say that college frat guys die regularly from hazing--but they do die on occasion. It is/was something of a problem here in the US.

Here's a site about the problem.

http://www.stophazing.org/

[RGacky3]

*Sighs*


What do you want to happen here, do you want us all to say "Yeah Hindus suck." Just so you can re-inforce your bigotry? Thats not gonna happen, we are not bigots.


Nobody ever tries to justify it by saying it's part of growing up, it's fun etc. etc. In Hindu societies, bullying is the norm rather than an aberration.


Some people do, in many societies, the tough love line.


Hope people can now understand better.

You belong on stormfront, not revleft, its SOOO obvious your just trying to demonize Hindus.

[PhoenixAsh]

We are not talking about something which is an out of control hazing....I tink you severely underestimate the situation. Where Hazing has excesses the excesses in Ragging are common practice.


Ragging in India has been recognized by the UN as well as the Indian Government and several NGO's as crime against humanity, torture and the violation of human rights.

We are talking about downright acts of torture here...such as electric shocks, severe beatings, waterboarding, rape, sexual humiliation and murder over prolonged periods of time.

It gets another brutal dimension as a hate crime when committed against Dalits or lower caste students who have very little legal protection as it is.

[Dimentio]

I think the caste system could have something to do with it.

In the USA, it is more the cult of male virility which is guilty.

[Bud Struggle]

OK it's bad. But here's the problem with the OP:



Strangely, this happens only in Hindu dominated areas and Hindu colleges. Never in Islamic or Christian ones. Draw your own conclusions.


Bottom line it isn't a Hindu problem or a religious problem at all. It's a societal problem that authorities don't do a good job of policing.

[PhoenixAsh]

What do you want to happen here, do you want us all to say "Yeah Hindus suck." Just so you can re-inforce your bigotry? Thats not gonna happen, we are not bigots.

Some people do, in many societies, the tough love line.

You belong on stormfront, not revleft, its SOOO obvious your just trying to demonize Hindus.


Before you try to denounce him as a member of Stormfront I would kindly like to request you to read somthing about the Indian caste system and the position of the Dalits in hindu culture and the way these people are treated by their own culture.

Before you try to take a position that criticising a culture for horrible acts as being intrinsicly part of that culture is somehow racist...first inform yourself into the validity of the position.

As I have no idea what the motivations of Milk Sheik are his argument here is in fact based in truth and reality of hindu culture...again...read up on the position of the Dalit...a caste of 83 million people in India and how they are treated.



I will clarify this before you do your research: The caste of the dalits is the lowest Hindu caste in India. They have very little to no judicial rights what so ever and their purpose and function in society is to serve the higher castes in any way they can and in anyway the higher castes see fit.

THis, for example, means Dalit women and girls are raped repeatedly, sexually humiliated sold in sexual slavery and its more or less accepted in the culture that if an employer employs a Dalit girl or woman he can use her in any way he sees fit.

Dalit children who get the chance to go to school are often beaten up, bullied against and threatened on a daily basis to such an extend their lives are threatened.

Temples need to be ritually cleansed after a Dalit visits (which they are not allowed to do...however there is 1 Dalit government official who serves as the exception); it is not allowed for higher castes to use something which has been previously been used by a Dalit. Dalit workers and caste members are denied to live inside the community. Are not allowed to dig their own wells on their own land (if they are lucky enough to own land that is), can be murdered or severely beaten when they use objects which they are not alowed to use (which is basically everything somebody of a higher caste uses)...

Dalits are en masse sold as slaves by higher cast members to companies, organisations or to foreigners....it is estimated over 1 million Dalit have been sold abroad as slaves.

If a dalit boy sends a love letter to a girl from a higher caste he can be murdered or severely abused.

Murder, torture, mistreatment, threats, rape sexual abuse, assault, exploitation and humiliation are part of daily Dalit life.

This practice is engrained in Hindu culture and also takes place in Sri Lanka and Nepal. ...and in lesser extend in Surinam...and are often justified through religious theory. which enforces the view that Dalits are sub human. be aware: Hindu religion....delcares Hindu's of the Dalit caste to be sub human. Further criminalisation of the caste is being argued through reincarnation...which sattes that being born as a Dalit means you have been horrible in your previous life. It also holds the promise to Dalits that if they dutifully perform the role they are designed for (see above) they have a chance to be born in the next life into a higher caste. seeing as being a Dalit is being a punishment for having been a horrible person it is also validated to mistreat Dalits without religious condemnation because...hey...they deserve it.

caste membership is dependent on birth. So nobody can ever escape being a Dalit. and class membership also indicates which jobs you can and can not perform...naturally Dalits perform the worst of the worst jobs. Such as manually cleaning a sewer or removing corpses and carcasses.

Though there are certain laws in place in India to prevent this these laws are not often enforced and the practice is all persuasive. Police often turning a blind eye and when cases are prosecuted sentences are often light depending on the region.

Even the so called government programs to protect Dalits and emancipate them are no more than window dressing and even the dalit who benefit from these programs face severe discrimination and abuse in the work place...which is often the goverment itself.

Even converted Hindu's treat Dalits who converted from Hinduism differently...but to a lesser extend... For a Dalit to convert to escape his or her position in life also means it sacrifices the so called protections of the government because these only serve to protect Hindu Dalits.

So...regardles of the personal motivations of Milk Sheik...his argument is completely valid.

IN this thread I did not read him stating all Hindu's share this view...but he rightly stated that these veiws and practices are an integral part of hindu culture.

[PhoenixAsh]

OK it's bad. But here's the problem with the OP:



Bottom line it isn't a Hindu problem or a religious problem at all. It's a societal problem that authorities don't do a good job of policing.

no Bud...it really is a religious problem and a social problem.

The caste system in India is part of the religious culture as different castes posess in Hindu religion different parts of the body of the different gods (gods are caste specific). Dalits, hindu religion states, do not poses these parts....and are therefore not normal human beings...and do not share the same rights as the other castes.

Being born a Dalit in Hindu culture is because you have been a horrible horrible person and are now punished. Other Hindu's are not allowed to treat Dalits as a human being and can not even use objects Dalits use because it will taint their spirit.

Dalits serve the role of having to do everything the higher castes say, when they say it without limitation and have to accept that dutifully because this is their lot in life for being punished by the Gods.

[Dimentio]

I start to understand why Nazis love Hinduism.

www.savitridevi.org


Before you try to denounce him as a member of Stormfront I would kindly like to request you to read somthing about the Indian caste system and the position of the Dalits in hindu culture and the way these people are treated by their own culture.

Before you try to take a position that criticising a culture for horrible acts as being intrinsicly part of that culture is somehow racist...first inform yourself into the validity of the position.

As I have no idea what the motivations of Milk Sheik are his argument here is in fact based in truth and reality of hindu culture...again...read up on the position of the Dalit...a caste of 83 million people in India and how they are treated.



I will clarify this before you do your research: The caste of the dalits is the lowest Hindu caste in India. They have very little to no judicial rights what so ever and their purpose and function in society is to serve the higher castes in any way they can and in anyway the higher castes see fit.

THis, for example, means Dalit women and girls are raped repeatedly, sexually humiliated sold in sexual slavery and its more or less accepted in the culture that if an employer employs a Dalit girl or woman he can use her in any way he sees fit.

Dalit children who get the chance to go to school are often beaten up, bullied against and threatened on a daily basis to such an extend their lives are threatened.

Temples need to be ritually cleansed after a Dalit visits (which they are not allowed to do...however there is 1 Dalit government official who serves as the exception); it is not allowed for higher castes to use something which has been previously been used by a Dalit. Dalit workers and caste members are denied to live inside the community. Are not allowed to dig their own wells on their own land (if they are lucky enough to own land that is), can be murdered or severely beaten when they use objects which they are not alowed to use (which is basically everything somebody of a higher caste uses)...

Dalits are en masse sold as slaves by higher cast members to companies, organisations or to foreigners....it is estimated over 1 million Dalit have been sold abroad as slaves.

If a dalit boy sends a love letter to a girl from a higher caste he can be murdered or severely abused.

Murder, torture, mistreatment, threats, rape sexual abuse, assault, exploitation and humiliation are part of daily Dalit life.

This practice is engrained in Hindu culture and also takes place in Sri Lanka and Nepal. ...and in lesser extend in Surinam...and are often justified through religious theory. which enforces the view that Dalits are sub human. be aware: Hindu religion....delcares Hindu's of the Dalit caste to be sub human. Further criminalisation of the caste is being argued through reincarnation...which sattes that being born as a Dalit means you have been horrible in your previous life. It also holds the promise to Dalits that if they dutifully perform the role they are designed for (see above) they have a chance to be born in the next life into a higher caste. seeing as being a Dalit is being a punishment for having been a horrible person it is also validated to mistreat Dalits without religious condemnation because...hey...they deserve it.

caste membership is dependent on birth. So nobody can ever escape being a Dalit. and class membership also indicates which jobs you can and can not perform...naturally Dalits perform the worst of the worst jobs. Such as manually cleaning a sewer or removing corpses and carcasses.

Though there are certain laws in place in India to prevent this these laws are not often enforced and the practice is all persuasive. Police often turning a blind eye and when cases are prosecuted sentences are often light depending on the region.

Even the so called government programs to protect Dalits and emancipate them are no more than window dressing and even the dalit who benefit from these programs face severe discrimination and abuse in the work place...which is often the goverment itself.

Even converted Hindu's treat Dalits who converted from Hinduism differently...but to a lesser extend... For a Dalit to convert to escape his or her position in life also means it sacrifices the so called protections of the government because these only serve to protect Hindu Dalits.

So...regardles of the personal motivations of Milk Sheik...his argument is completely valid.

IN this thread I did not read him stating all Hindu's share this view...but he rightly stated that these veiws and practices are an integral part of hindu culture.

[Bud Struggle]

no Bud...it really is a religious problem and a social problem.

The caste system in India is part of the religious culture as different castes posess in Hindu religion different parts of the body of the different gods (gods are caste specific). Dalits, hindu religion states, do not poses these parts....and are therefore not normal human beings...and do not share the same rights as the other castes.

Being born a Dalit in Hindu culture is because you have been a horrible horrible person and are now punished. Other Hindu's are not allowed to treat Dalits as a human being and can not even use objects Dalits use because it will taint their spirit.

Dalits serve the role of having to do everything the higher castes say, when they say it without limitation and have to accept that dutifully because this is their lot in life for being punished by the Gods.

It's a civil problem. Listen, if the civil society let Catholics do what they wanted they would be burning Lutherins at the stake to this day. In society where Shria Law is implemented people die and are punished for committing religions crimes--where a reasonable rule of law in in place, such things aren't allowed.

I don't know the civil code of India--but I suspect that all of this torture and all of this mistreatment of Dalits is illegal.

It behooves the civil society of India to do a better job of policing and defending these people. It's a matter of makeing the Hindu religion conform to a reasonable and equitable code of law. Civil authorities just can't let medieval religious practices go unchecked.

[PhoenixAsh]

I had a hindu collegue once...she cakme fom a traditionalist family and had her marriage arranged when she was 5. She was lucky because she and her husband clicked and fell in love. Another white collegue had a hindu boyfriend who she claimed said he woud marry her...and she warned her that she should not count on it.

So after that conversation I asked her why. Her litteral reply was: "because when it comes to blood Hindu's are worse than Nazi's"

Now...this is ofcourse annecdotal evidence and her opinion on the matter...and to be fair she said this half jokingly... But she explained that Hinduism is often obsessed with ethnical purity of blood...meaning Hindu's marry hindu's and get hindu children.

Later when I had a long relationship with a Chinese-Surinam girl...her best friend was Hindu....she was given an ultimatum to either ditch her dutch boyfriend and find herself a nice Hindu boyfriend or her parents would chose one for her. Now...since her parents lived in Holland for about thirty years and came here when they were both still infants...I asked her why her parents wanted her to get a hindu boyfriend. And she stated that her parents held the view that halfblood children were not pure and not real hindu's.

Now...I have heard this more often...parts of Hindu religion hold very strict views on ethnical and racial purity within the context of religion.

I also remember reading something about it or seeing it in an documentary about the Nazi-antopologist expeditions to Nepal and India....that that is what they also admired about teh hindu culture.

That and ofcourse the fact that Indians are directly descendent from the Aryans....who introduced, incidentally, the caste system to India (Dalits are probably the descendants of the original population) and formed the upper castes.
The engtire Hindu religion is formed and reshaped around this system to validate the rulership of aryans over the indiginous people.

[PhoenixAsh]

It's a civil problem. Listen, if the civil society let Catholics do what they wanted they would be burning Lutherins at the stake to this day. In society where Shria Law is implemented people die and are punished for committing religions crimes--where a reasonable rule of law in in place, such things aren't allowed.

I don't know the civil code of India--but I suspect that all of this torture and all of this mistreatment of Dalits is illegal.

It behooves the civil society of India to do a better job of policing and defending these people. It's a matter of makeing the Hindu religion conform to a reasonable and equitable code of law. Civil authorities just can't let medieval religious practices go unchecked.

I think your position is wholy one sided. As if society is not formed by the main institutions and state religion of Hinduism.

More than 80% of the population is active Hindu. Following a religion that actively preaches sub humanity of dalits.

Government has recently adopted several laws which are supposed to protect teh Dalit but these are not inforced and the mayor Hindu political parties are trying to infringe on these laws daily. Many of the 28 states in India do not have protection of Dalits and pay it lip service.

Now...this is not only because the state does not do enough.....but its a matter of the state not doing enough because of its religious context and the opnions of its population.

So saying its NOT a religious problem but merely a social problem is denying the fact that its a policy which has been and still is enforced by religious principle and practice which directly influences policy and enforcement of policy....but is still also intrinsi part of Hindu religion.


I also like to point out that you argue that eventhough religion may hold a certain view...and its followers put this view in active practice...I might add...its the state which is responsible for enforcing law. Which I agree with. But your argument is counter opposed to your claim:


Bottom line it isn't a Hindu problem or a religious problem at all. It's a societal problem that authorities don't do a good job of policing.In denouncing the OP. Either it is intrinsic part of Hindu'ism or it isn't...you can not both claim it at the same time as suit your needs.

As Milk Sheik has argued its an intrinsic part of Hinduism....which you attacked as being problematic....and I have shown you how that is indeed the case...this is actually regardles of enforcement of state law.

What you need to realise is that 80% of the population of India which practice its religion and all it encompasses and all the bigotry it holds...regardles of the state laws.


Now I also agree with you it is also a social and political problem. as teh communists and Maoists state the governments interests are certainly not by bettering the position of the Dalits. They serve as cheap labour and can be used to deflect and scapegoat. Its policies are mere window dressing as an obvious attempt to placate the Dalits and to persuade them to vote for them....

[ar734]

when i saw the title of this thread i thought it had to do with the treatment of bradley manning at the prison in quantico, va. according to reports the guards there were forcing manning to sleep naked and then stand at attention in the morning, still naked.

sounds like some kind of ritual homoerotic bullying.

[PhoenixAsh]

when i saw the title of this thread i thought it had to do with the treatment of bradley manning at the prison in quantico, va. according to reports the guards there were forcing manning to sleep naked and then stand at attention in the morning, still naked.

sounds like some kind of ritual homoerotic bullying.

I don't think it belongs to the topic of the thread but yes...it is indeed a form of bullying and is an extreme form of hazing and a form of ragging...I think it has little to do with homoeroticism however and more with sexual abuse and humiliation.

Though I do not think you actually mean in it in such a way I think you should be careful with using this terminology...because it could be mistaken for the idea or concept that somehow the bullying stems from homosexuality and not from the policy of humiliation and degradation.

[Jose Gracchus]

No Hindus in the fraternities on my campus. Just WASP good ol' boys. :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

That would be like if National Socialism would be a religion instead for an ideology.

[RGacky3]

Except caste discrimination is not actually in the hindu scriptures, they talk about different castes, but the discrimination that comes out of it is societal.

[Viet Minh]

I don't know much about Hinduism, I know there is an idea of caste and karma which justifies extreme social hierarchies, arguably a lot of that could be put down to class divides in the Victorian British Empire. There is also undoubtedly racial discrimination between light skinned and (usually southern) dark-skinned Indians. Regardless this is not an excuse to attack Hindus, rather the system of belief itself* and its impact on a supposedly multicultural and secular democratic soceity. I'm not saying anyone was attacking Hindus per se, I just wanted to clarify that distinction.

EDIT: by system of belief I don't mean the religion, I mean how the religion is interprested in modern society. For example Christianity is allegedly anti-homosexual, yet many christians hold 'liberal' views (for lack of a better word offhand) on for example gay marriage.

[PhoenixAsh]

Except caste discrimination is not actually in the hindu scriptures, they talk about different castes, but the discrimination that comes out of it is societal.


Except...that it is...

the Varna and caste system and its inherrent discrimination as well as the position and rights of each caste was codified by the vedic scriptures. Most notorious is the Manava Dharmastastra which many believe to be authorative.

edit: to clarify...you are absolutely right in saying its a social problem...but its also a religious one. Society and religion evolve hand in hand and both influence the other. Just to make that clear.

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't know much about Hinduism, I know there is an idea of caste and karma which justifies extreme social hierarchies, arguably a lot of that could be put down to class divides in the Victorian British Empire. There is also undoubtedly racial discrimination between light skinned and (usually southern) dark-skinned Indians. Regardless this is not an excuse to attack Hindus, rather the system of belief itself* and its impact on a supposedly multicultural and secular democratic soceity. I'm not saying anyone was attacking Hindus per se, I just wanted to clarify that distinction.

EDIT: by system of belief I don't mean the religion, I mean how the religion is interprested in modern society. For example Christianity is allegedly anti-homosexual, yet many christians hold 'liberal' views (for lack of a better word offhand) on for example gay marriage.


No...actually none of that can be put down on the British imperialism.
because it existed centuries before they came to India. Now...wether or not this is linked to some suppossed Aryan invasion centuries before BC or that it somehow came later does not negate the fact that the cast system and its rules and regulations about social status and the legal positions of the different castes have been codified in Hindu texts and the religion.

Indeed as I stated its an intrinsic part of Hindu texts. Not all Hinud's ascribe to this and some want to see it changed....but most do and have a hard time getting over these ways.

Now...I am criticising Hindu as a religion for these texts....and I am criticising the Hindu's that adher to these texts and practice them for their behaviour.

And its a fair statement that, for example, speaking about the treatment of Dalits for example, you mostly see that with Hindu's and that is because large parts of the Hindu religion are based on caste discrimination and endorse it and justify it.

Nietsche and Nazi antropoligists really admired the Hindu religion. That is not for nothing. for one the Hindu religion is validates blood purity, for another it preaches social difference, legal difference, and offers a religious frame work for discrimination and explaining why some people are born better than others and are superior and others are inferior.

That is not to say all Hindu's are bad or all Hindu's should be generalised that that is exactly what they believe and practice....but it it part of the religion.

And as with Christians and with Muslims...we should oppose those parts of the religion and should oppose those who practice them.

[Bud Struggle]

Except...that it is...

the Varna and caste system and its inherrent discrimination as well as the position and rights of each caste was codified by the vedic scriptures. Most notorious is the Manava Dharmastastra which many believe to be authorative.

And slaves and slavery and are mentioned in Christian and Jewish scripture. That issue seems to have been overcome.

[PhoenixAsh]

And slaves and slavery and are mentioned in Christian and Jewish scripture. That issue seems to have been overcome.

while the issue of Dalits is most certanly still a large scale problem.

changes need to be made in both the practices of the state and within the temples...

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

hindsight-you are making broad generalizations about the nature of the religion.

First, "Hinduism", first off, doesn't really exist as a religion, it's merely a Persian and British name for the various forms of orthodox religion they found in the Indian Subcontinent, and a title that later got appropriated by this group. In reality, there are diverse host of related faiths and traditions that are often interchangeable and rooted in some shared texts, but aside from a general acceptance of "the Vedas", there's really no "one" Hindu religion in the way we would think of a "Christian", "Jewish" or "Muslim" religion.

Second, it's a polytheistic religion, so it has a greater diversity of texts than just about any religion on earth. Yes, it has some of the most reactionary and vile religious texts in existence. But it also has many that explicitly reject caste discrimination and support egalitarianism, and truly beautiful texts that speak to the essential equality of all beings. As a polytheistic religion with a 4,000 year old history, much of it during the feudal era, it has expanded to become just about the most diverse religion in the world in practice and in belief, and yes, much of it includes a highly metaphysical defense of class relations.

Third, its hardly the only caste system in the world. Japanese Samurai were allowed to kill peasants, and Indios in Spanish America were treated no better than untouchables. And Dalits are not a caste per se, but outcastes, or pariahs. This is why they are referred to as "untouchable"; they exist outside the caste system because they took roles that placed them outside of ritually proscribed existence. I don't think they're even mentioned in the Vedas (the sudra are mentioned, however, as the "low caste" which is not untouchable but still "lower" than the three ruling castes).

Fourth, the OP wasn't talking about caste, or at least he didn't mention it. Even if he was, caste as an institution also infects Sikh, Christian and Muslim practice in India, even though these religions reject castism. One of the great crimes of non-Hindu religions in India is that they tend to ignore manifestations of caste crime within their flock. This is because Caste is based on class and metaphysical purity relations which are deeply culturally ingrained beyond the spiritual beliefs of a person. Getting Baptised as Catholic doesn't make upper caste Indians want to eat from the plate with the people who clean fecal matter any more than a Brahmin would.

Fifth, you mention the importance of Blood to Hinduism ... this is an unfair criticism of the religion. The concern for Blood is just as much an issue for all ancient religions which are left today: Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and the few small ethnic religions like the Huichols or Yazidi. Anthropologically speaking, you could probably make the argument that this goes back to the days of tribalism from where all these religions originated. Some of these groups accept converts, some don't. Christianity and Islam, on the other hand, as well as western secular Atheism, view themselves as universal religions (awaits the atheist angrily insisting atheism "isn't a religion"), and as such don't give two shits about blood. Consider the historical origins of why the faith has this before judging them on it!

Sixth, there have been so many reformists or reform movements in Hinduism who criticize the caste system, such as Mahatma Gandhi, Vivekananda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekananda), Basava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basavanna), Brahmo Samaj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmo_Samaj), Annamacharya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annamayya) and so on. And these reformists tend to be the most revered people in Hinduism later on in time. Even fairly conservative theologians such as Adi Sankara came around to rejecting the truth value of the Caste system, at least on an ontological or metaphysical level. So while it is accurate to say that it is a part of the Hindu tradition, it is not accurate to say that it is the essence of the Hindu tradition. If anything, rejecting the metaphysical truth value of the Caste system is seen as a stage of enlightenment according to many of the philosophical texts.


I think people should be critical of the caste system, but there's no need to shit all over a 4,000 year old culture simply because there are some skeletons in its closet. Many temples do desperately need to reform the ritual rules about allowing in Dalits. Rural villages need reform even more than the Temples do, since rural villages are the center of economic life and where most caste reactionary violence seems to happen. But while many Hindus have disgustingly reactionary views about Caste, many hold very moderate or progressive views, and most people lie somewhere in between (as is often the case with these kinds of issues). I think Hindus are and have always been deeply divided on the issue of the Caste system. Dalits themselves are often, but not always, Hindu (many convert to other religions out of anger with the caste system, but many more don't). What's really needed is the social and critical education of both the Dalits and the upper caste members, as well as an attempt to use Hindu scriptures themselves as a tool to dismantle the ideological and material structures preserving caste privilege.

Part of the problem is this stupid naive Western view of Hinduism, where Hinduism is either this utopian, hippy religion of enlightened yogis on one hand, or a den of caste-based hatred, discrimination, ignorance and magical thinking on the other. Neither is accurate. Both have aspects of the truth, but both are also equally naive orientalist reductions of what Hinduism is.


As to the OP-there's no evidence provided at all that this is a worse problem at Hindu colleges. No pretext or anything. Maybe there are problems, who knows, but it would be nice to get at least a little context.

[RGacky3]

Except...that it is...

the Varna and caste system and its inherrent discrimination as well as the position and rights of each caste was codified by the vedic scriptures. Most notorious is the Manava Dharmastastra which many believe to be authorative.

edit: to clarify...you are absolutely right in saying its a social problem...but its also a religious one. Society and religion evolve hand in hand and both influence the other. Just to make that clear.

I understand that the caste system is in the vedic scriptures, but whats not in there is discrimination based on caste, at least from what I've heard.

BTW, if your gonna nit pick in hinduism (as many people here also do with Islam) to try and show its somehow an "Evil" religion, I can do the same thing with the first testiment of the bible to show that Jews are evil, many of these religious texts can be interpreted many different ways and acted on many ways.

Take for example the idea of the Jews being Gods special people, you can take that along with other scriptrues in the Jewish scriptures about all men being equal, and how non-jews should be treated with the same respect and so on, or you can take it to mean that non jews should be treated with contempt. Its the same with Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and so on.

[pranabjyoti]

I want to know whether bullying is something related to racism, communalism. In short, bullying a person for his birth in a "low-level" community in other places of world? In India, this is often related to community and caste. The upper cast Hindus, who make the elites of India, often bully people from Muslim community and lower caste just for their religion and caste. As far as I know, this is outright banned in US and other advanced countries.
Though I am from a upper caste Hindu family, but I must confess that. I often engaged into debate with other Hindus, mostly upper caste, regarding their opinion about Muslims. Even on one day, in a train, someone even asked my name (actually he wanted to know whether I am Muslim or Hindu) and then I showed my identity card (govt. issued) to that man to show that I am from a upper cast Hindu family.
Milk Sheikh actually want to point out the racism, communal mentality hidden in bullying, but whether it's his inability to make it understandable or other inability to understand the Indian situation properly, this lead had taken a different path.
Bullying one is crime, but bullying one for his religion, color and other factor is CRIME OF CRIMES.

[pranabjyoti]

I don't know much about Hinduism, I know there is an idea of caste and karma which justifies extreme social hierarchies, arguably a lot of that could be put down to class divides in the Victorian British Empire. There is also undoubtedly racial discrimination between light skinned and (usually southern) dark-skinned Indians. Regardless this is not an excuse to attack Hindus, rather the system of belief itself* and its impact on a supposedly multicultural and secular democratic soceity. I'm not saying anyone was attacking Hindus per se, I just wanted to clarify that distinction.

EDIT: by system of belief I don't mean the religion, I mean how the religion is interprested in modern society. For example Christianity is allegedly anti-homosexual, yet many christians hold 'liberal' views (for lack of a better word offhand) on for example gay marriage.
I don't know whether you have any Indian background or not, but you have real good idea about Indian perspective. I am requesting the moderators to lift the restriction on this user.

[pranabjyoti]

That would be like if National Socialism would be a religion instead for an ideology.
Well, in my opinion, religions are old, fossilized ideology.