So Much for Solidarity

[Summerspeaker]

I asked Franklin Lopez (http://endciv.com/) about the prospects of cooperation between primitivists and traditional leftists. He responded with skepticism, dismissing worker control of factories as support for the industrial system. I still stand beside my green anarchist comrades but realize they'll probably shoot me after the revolution. :lol:

[Kuppo Shakur]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Nolan]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Il Medico]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Tablo]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Jimmie Higgins]

After a revolution... they can have Alaska or New Zeland, what do we care. 80% of them would die off in the first year from starvation. No, just kidding. After the first year 80% will rejoin the working class run society after they see workers reorganizing work on a democratic basis in a much more human and environmentally friendly way than ever before in modern history.


Edit: then 80% of the remaining 20% will die of starvation or exposure or infection.

Edit: Ok, kidding again. I think many primitivists (at least the environmentally motivated ones, not the misanthropy-motivated ones) would probably be won over to our side in a revolutionary situation once they see that wholesale change of how production and industry is done in society actually is really possible.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Primitivists are morons. Most of 'em wouldn't survive a day in the wild. A lot of people who romanticize nature don't realize just how much nature can suck.

(Although yes, I am aware that primitivism is a critique/analysis more than it is a viable alternative.)


I still stand beside my green anarchist comrades but realize they'll probably shoot me after the revolution.

With what? Flint-tipped arrows?

[La Comédie Noire]

Fuck primitivists and the horses, they presumably, rode in on.

[Rusty Shackleford]

With what? Flint-tipped arrows?

i dont think a primitivist would even accept bows. too advanced. too much work to make:laugh:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Fuck primitivists and the horses, they presumably, rode in on.And the hipsters and the fixed-gear bikes they rode in on!:lol:

[CynicalIdealist]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.I keep misreading this and thinking that people on revleft really like to hate on premature babies.

[Martin Blank]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.
Grind their bones up and mix them into concrete for a new parking lot.

[Sasha]

Primmies?
Fuck them.
But use a condom.
An industrial produced latex one.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.
Not Derrick Jensen, though. I heard that he mates with salmon.

[gorillafuck]

How do you even know primitivists? I've never heard of anyone meeting them irl.

[Sasha]

Hang around a bit in EF! circles, but its an fad that died out pretty much around here after the rest of the Anarcho-squat scene had enough of them and didn't give them room anymore to spread their bs.

[Summerspeaker]

Primitivism appears in all the anarchist circles I've participated in so far. (Raleigh, NC, and Albuquerque, NM, primarily, but they're even more abundant in the Pacific Northwest.) I know tons of green anarchists and sympathizers in person. Some do want to collaborate with the rest of radical movement and don't dismiss us as reactionaries bent on the destruction of the planet. Lopez even suggested we might actually be on the same side when we parted ways after the event.

[Dimentio]

I've met them IRL.

Most of them realise that their vision is unrealistic, but it isn't their goal to be realistic. Most of them just want to rub their "principled stance" in the face of the rest of us.

Typical primitivist:

Male, his 20's, bearded, wears colourful but dirty clothes with brown spots, is a vegan and a freegan, sleeps in a tent or in a corridor, makes some shitty art, is from a wealthy urban family of academic left-wingers. If they have children, they try to breastfeed them. Most of them have bugs.

Heck, one of the primmies I know is even the nephew of Sweden's Neo-Liberal minister of Industry. He had never seen a moose in his entire life (when I was a kid, it was not unusual to see a moose stand on the lawn).

[Dimentio]

Hang around a bit in EF! circles, but its an fad that died out pretty much around here after the rest of the Anarcho-squat scene had enough of them and didn't give them room anymore to spread their bs.

Or their bugs.

[Tablo]

I've met a few. They seem to infect the anarchist subcultures(lifestylism). They aren't all bad. They just don't really understand anything pertaining to politics. A lot of them get involved with groups like Food Not Bombs. Their ideologies vary so I would argue some of them are legitimate anarchists with a distaste for technology and a belief civilization will collapse. Others are psychos bent on destroying humanity.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Jazzratt]

I think I was near one once, but I've never actually met one or held any sort of conversation with one outside of the internet.

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[bailey_187]

capitalism>>primitivism

[praxis1966]

I've actually heard one of the original primmies speak in person, Ramona Africa of MOVE (apparently a close friend of Judy Bari's). I was in the process of trying to learn about EF! as a movement, so I went to a Judy Bari memorial event at which she was one of the speakers. Bizarre sort of stuff she was spouting... She kept repeating, "Momma gonna take care of that!" IE Mother Earth would take care of all the polluters and industrialists by wiping them off the map via natural disaster, lol. I found myself thinking, "Well, if 'momma gonna take care of that,' what's the point of activism?" Anyway, I find it rather odd that a lot of primmies (especially and obviously the ones involved with EF!) will claim green anarchism as their ideology and then quote Malthus to prove their points.:lol: So yeah...

Primmies?
Fuck 'em.

[Q]

lolprimmies

[bcbm]

yall just jealous of my log cabin

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

yall just jealous of my log cabin
REVISIONIST!:laugh:

[Kuppo Shakur]

yall just jealous of my log cabin
Log cabins are for cappies taking "camping" trips.

Oh, and cool purple name!:thumbup1:

[L.A.P.]

Primmies? Fuck em'


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em


Primmies? Fuck em

I smell a meme cooking up.:)

[Ele'ill]

Post-civ anarchist environmentalists wrath-to-the-rescue

[Magón]

Somehow I feel this just fits the whole discussion.

http://picrocker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/alligator-sleeping-bag-meme.jpg

[Kuppo Shakur]

I smell a meme cooking up.:)
Oh shit and it's my fault!
WHAT HAVE I DONE!

[Summerspeaker]

Here (http://queersingularity.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/primitivism-singularitarianism-turned-upside-down/) is my critique of the Lopez film. Especially given these responses, I'm amused that it played literally right in front of the local ANSWER office. We're such motley assortment of hostile elements here in New Mexico. :lol:

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's interesting to contrast someone who places absolutely no value on working class actions with the opinions of one John Zerzan.


Primitivists do not deny the important role that mass actions might have in undermining the state, but shy away from the idea that individuals might be made subject to collective force. Zerzan advocates wildcat strikes and factory occupations on the model of the May 1968 uprising in France, political vandalism, roaming riots and militant protest. However, unlike Kropotkin, his ambition is not to organize workers to expropriate owners and dismantle the means of industrial production. It is to encourage each individual – separately – to engage in the struggle against the ‘domination of nature, subjugation of women, war, religion … and division of labor’.

I guess that Jensen is the latest brand of kooky cereal that the primmies are consuming, though?

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

I asked Franklin Lopez (http://endciv.com/) about the prospects of cooperation between primitivists and traditional leftists. He responded with skepticism, dismissing worker control of factories as support for the industrial system. I still stand beside my green anarchist comrades but realize they'll probably shoot me after the revolution. :lol:
Not all green anarchists are primitivists.

[synthesis]

I smell a meme cooking up.:)

Calling a meme a meme is like explaining and thereby ruining a joke. Actually, I'd say it's more or less the same thing.

[Tablo]

Not all green anarchists are primitivists.
Very true.

[Summerspeaker]

Green Anarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Anarchy) has made me conflate the two terms. That's good to know. I'd like to meet some. :)

[L.A.P.]

Calling a meme a meme is like explaining and thereby ruining a joke. Actually, I'd say it's more or less the same thing.

It wasn't that great of a joke anyways.

[Salyut]

How many primmies actually attempt to live the lifestyle? Ie, in a yurt out in the countryside with the nearest Starbucks ~100 km away.

[Tablo]

A few, but they are a minority in the actual primitivist movement.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'd say close to zero, actually.

[Jazzratt]

I'd say close to zero, actually. To be fair to them you'd have to set your yurt in the middle of a desert or at one of the poles before you're 100km from the nearest starbucks :lol:

[synthesis]

Well, I'd say the more important point is that "real primitivists" wouldn't have any way of contacting the rest of us; it's like a "silent evidence" kind of thing.

[gorillafuck]

To be fair to them you'd have to set your yurt in the middle of a desert or at one of the poles before you're 100km from the nearest starbucks :lol:starbucks has locations at both poles.

[El Rojo]

starbucks?
fuck em, burn it to the ground (burning optional at the poles :D)

[Magón]

Green Anarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Anarchy) has made me conflate the two terms. That's good to know. I'd like to meet some. :)

John Zerzan is a pretty weird guy. I've never read Green Anarchy, but I have heard him speak once at some rally, just for a minute on Primitivism, and he's kinda got some weird ideas brewing for what he thinks the world should become more like.

But not all Primitivists, I don't think, are as extreme as John Zerzan and other major Primitive-Primitive Primitivists. Some do just want to live a life, where they're not so bombarded all the time, with new technologies that are meant to help us through our lives, or have a phone/iPod, etc. do everything but what their primary focus is meant to be.

[Summerspeaker]

Jensen-style primitivism isn't about individual choices or purity, so criticizing proponents for not withdrawing to the wilderness misses the point. Dropping out does exactly nothing to stop the industrial machine. It's akin to bashing communists for using money.

With that said, I was mildly amused that I biked home from the event while Lopez left in some sort of awesome-looking hippie van. :lol:

[Jazzratt]

starbucks has locations at both poles. You're fucking with me, surely. You are shitting me. I am being shat by you.

[gorillafuck]

You're fucking with me, surely. You are shitting me. I am being shat by you.Indeed, I shat you well.

[Tablo]

This is chit-chat, not shit-shat.

[Vanguard1917]

Jensen-style primitivism isn't about individual choices or purity, so criticizing proponents for not withdrawing to the wilderness misses the point. Dropping out does exactly nothing to stop the industrial machine. It's akin to bashing communists for using money.

That's a fair point, i guess. But whereas communists pressupose majority or mass support for the accomplishment of their aims, primitivists could not possibly do so, since only a very small fraction of the current world population would be able to exist (and not very well) in the kind of society primitivists have in mind.

Thus in effect it is an incredibly minoritarian and elitist 'ideology'. Primitivists may as well gather together and just live in some wilderness very, very far from the rest of us, since their politics could not possibly take account of the rest of us (barring our destruction, of course).

[Sasha]

just wait until after the zombie-apocalypse and any of you still alive will regret all the mean things you said about the primmies

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'd rather fight off the zombie hordes with a belt-fed M60 machine gun (provided courtesy of industrial society) as opposed to a sharpened stick, thank you very much.

[Tablo]

I'd rather fight off the zombie hordes with a belt-fed M60 machine gun (provided courtesy of industrial society) as opposed to a sharpened stick, thank you very much.
How can you hurt zombies like that! They having feeling too! Or do they.. Would animal rights activists be against killing zombies?

[Pirate Utopian]

just wait until after the zombie-apocalypse and any of you still alive will regret all the mean things you said about the primmies

Technology will still exist after the zombie apocalypse haven't you seen Land of the Dead.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

How can you hurt zombies like that! They having feeling too! Or do they.. Would animal rights activists be against killing zombies?
I hope you're joking.

[Magón]

Would animal rights activists be against killing zombies?


I hope you're joking.

http://www.risingupmovie.com/Rising_Up/Home.php

[Crux]

I hope you're joking.
I hope he's serious.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

http://www.risingupmovie.com/Rising_Up/Home.php
http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facepalm.jpg

[bailey_187]

just wait until after the zombie-apocalypse and any of you still alive will regret all the mean things you said about the primmies

try surviving it without guns though

[Pirate Utopian]

If anything when the inevitable zombie apocalypse happens primitivists will be the first to go.

[The Douche]

Threads about primitivists on revleft are like threads about communists on stormfront. Equally full of hatred, and equally misinformed.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Threads about primitivists on revleft are like threads about communists on stormfront. Equally full of hatred, and equally misinformed.

I think that it's a pretty sketchy ideology even if you're familiar with some of the arguments. For example, I think that the idea that technology or "civilization" is inherently alienating is absurd...one is a neutral tool that can either be used for productive or destructive ends, and the other is an ideological buzzword based on whatever economic system is in place. If you say you want to destroy civilization based on the capitalist conception of the term, then that's fine with me, but all of the romanticized warmed-over-Situationist muck about how "the beach is under the paving stones" is so silly. Just so silly.


Civilization is like a jetliner, noisy, burning up enormous amounts of fuel ...


Civilization is like a 747, the filtered air, the muzak oozing over the earphones, a phony sense of security, the chemical food, the plastic trays, all the passengers sitting passively in the orderly row of padded seats staring at Death on the movie screen ...



Civilization is like a 747, filled beyond capacity with coerced volunteers – some in love with the velocity, most wavering at the abyss of terror and nausea, yet still seduced by advertising and propaganda.


You can clearly see Situ influence in crap like that. Lots of poetic license and vague references to the enrapturing gaze of the spectacle (or in this case "civilization").

The bottom line is that I don't think they have much to offer to any sort of program for real change. But I'm becoming more and more discouraged with that prospect daily, it seems, so who knows. Maybe one day I'll decide that they were right all along, and next thing you know you'll see me being hauled out of a cabin in rural Idaho by the FBI.

[Summerspeaker]

Primitivists fall into the same trap as many Singularitarians in viewing technology as a monolithic, autonomous force. They likewise echo the classic Marxist error of being too certain about the future.

[Tablo]

I hope you're joking.
You looking to start something! :lol:

[Toppler]

Primmies? Fuck em ;)