Is communism/socialism purely athiest?

[RedGuerilla]

Just wanted to know since that case came up a few times, and can anybody list a few functioning socialist/communist states or countries?

[bcbm]

no...

[Rafiq]

Communist, Or Socialist "state' is contradiction in terms. Communism is stateless by definition.

Secondly, I wouldn't say they are "atheist" But the systems are definitely secular, (a bit like how Europe is secular). You can be religious and a Communist and Socialist, but you cannot be a religious Marxist(Well, you can if you want, but they contradict),

[thesadmafioso]

The essential ideological foundation of any traditional Marxist state is strictly based in materialist thought, so in theory any socialist government following the tradition of Marx would indeed be atheistic. Though reality has often caused breaches in the materialist aspect of Marxism and religious has played a part in a variety of socialist nations. For instance religious prosecution was toned down by Stalin during world war two as it was dividing the soviet people in a time of war. You also have the notion of liberation theology which took hold in Latin America, which blends some selected aspects of religion with certain other portions of leftist thought. So it is not unheard of, though it is not in line with the official Marxist thought that most any socialistic government draws from to some degree or another.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Marxism rejects religion.

[StalinFanboy]

It seems like the God question for marxists is irrelevant. I think it's more than just being an atheist as that allows the theists to dictate the discourse. God just simply does not matter.

[Zanthorus]

The answer to both questions is no.


The essential ideological foundation of any traditional Marxist state is strictly based in materialist thought, so in theory any socialist government following the tradition of Marx would indeed be atheistic.

Apart from the other problems with this formulation, I don't think Marx would've been fond of the idea of so-called Marxists running around forcing people to reject their religious beliefs.


I requested further that religion should be criticised in the framework of criticism of political conditions rather than that political conditions should be criticised in the framework of religion, since this is more in accord with the nature of a newspaper and the educational level of the reading public; for religion in itself is without content, it owes its being not to heaven but to the earth, and with the abolition of distorted reality, of which it is the theory, it will collapse of itself. Finally, I desired that, if there is to be talk about philosophy, there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogy man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people. Voilà tout.- Marx to Ruge, November 1842


Since, however, the existence of religion is the existence of defect, the source of this defect can only be sought in the nature of the state itself. We no longer regard religion as the cause, but only as the manifestation of secular narrowness. Therefore, we explain the religious limitations of the free citizen by their secular limitations. We do not assert that they must overcome their religious narrowness in order to get rid of their secular restrictions, we assert that they will overcome their religious narrowness once they get rid of their secular restrictions. We do not turn secular questions into theological ones.- On the Jewish Question


"1. The Alliance declares itself atheist; it wants abolition of cults, substitution of science for faith and human justice for divine justice."

As if one could declare by royal decree abolition of faith!- Marginal Notes on the Program and Rules of Bakunin's International Alliance of Socialist Democracy


His [Bakunin's] programme was a superficially scraped together hash of Right and Left – EQUALITY Of CLASSES (!), abolition of the right of inheritance as the starting point of the social movement (St. Simonistic nonsense), atheism as a dogma to be dictated to the members, etc.- Marx to Friedrich Bolte, November 1871

[gorillafuck]

Communist, Or Socialist "state' is contradiction in terms. Communism is stateless by definition.That's not necessary to mention every time someone says the word "state". If someone is a stalinist or something (for example), then obviously when they say communist state they mean a state that follows marxist-leninist ideology.

Anywho socialism is secular. It's not necessarily "atheist" though.

[thesadmafioso]

The answer to both questions is no.



Apart from the other problems with this formulation, I don't think Marx would've been fond of the idea of so-called Marxists running around forcing people to reject their religious beliefs.

- Marx to Ruge, November 1842

- On the Jewish Question

- Marginal Notes on the Program and Rules of Bakunin's International Alliance of Socialist Democracy

- Marx to Friedrich Bolte, November 1871

I was basing my comments more on materialist thought as exposed by Marx than I was on any literal correspondence in which Marx said something which is in opposition to a narrow interpretation of my remarks. If you noticed I also referenced examples of unmistakably non-atheistic thought which have been allowed under socialist governments.

I suppose that's the danger of trying to use any historical leftist figure in making a point though, there will always be someone waiting around the corner to pull some quote of questionable relevance and claim it to be a valid counterpoint.

[L.A.P.]

The relation of communism and atheism is as pure as the Virgin Mary.
But seriously, the very philosophical backbone of Marxism (materialism) goes against having any religious belief, but it happens (Christian Communism) .

[NGNM85]

Most Anarchists have rejected religion, both on the basis of philosophical opposition to religious institutions, and to the irrationality of religion, itself.

[MarxSchmarx]

Most Anarchists have rejected religion, both on the basis of philosophical opposition to religious institutions, and to the irrationality of religion, itself.

I think that is probably accurate for today, but historically there has also been a uniquely devoutly religious segment to anarchism - for example Tolstoy considered himself both deeply Orthodox and anarchist, and in parts of America anarchism had its strongest bastion in Jewish community organizations.

One reason, I suspect, is that organized religion has struggled with the role of the state as well in a way that few modern institutions have. Historically even in theocracies this tension has been manifest, and when religions are out of power they are accustomed to competing with the state for dominance. This is as true of the state as it is of economic powers, and to some extent this tension still exists today.

It's not clear to me that this has any consequence for our movement today. Still, I think the anti-authoritarian rhetoric of religion can be borrowed - especially in societies where religion still plays a major role like Myanmar or America.

[hatzel]

One reason, I suspect, is that organized religion has struggled with the role of the state as well in a way that few modern institutions have. Historically even in theocracies this tension has been manifest, and when religions are out of power they are accustomed to competing with the state for dominance.

Which is all well and good, but considering Tolstoy spent half his time writing about how it's inevitable that all churches will totally distort the Christian faith beyond anything remotely recognisable as the teachings of Jesus*, I really doubt he would have been all too concerned with their lack of power vis à vis the state...:rolleyes:

*e.g.

- 'Churches cause dissension among men, and are always hostile to Christianity'

- 'The significance of the Gospel is hidden from believers by the Church, from unbelievers by Science'

- 'Nowhere nor in anything, except in the assertion of the Church, can we find that G-d or Christ founded anything like what Churchmen understand by the Church. In the Gospels there is a warning against the Church, as it is an external authority, a warning most clear and obvious in the passage where it is said that Christ's followers should "call no man master." But nowhere is anything said of the foundation of what Churchmen call the Church'

- 'The churches as churches are not, as many people suppose, institutions which have Christian principles for their basis, even though they may have strayed a little away from the straight path. The churches as churches, as bodies which assert their own infallibility, are institutions opposed to Christianity. There is not only nothing in common between the churches as such and Christianity, except the name, but they represent two principles fundamentally opposed and antagonistic to one another'

...etc. etc.

[Black Sheep]

Socialism and communism are purely materialist worldviews, and materialism leads in a 1-1 relationship to atheism.

[Thirsty Crow]

Socialism and communism are purely materialist worldviews, and materialism leads in a 1-1 relationship to atheism.
I wouldn't say that socialism is a worldview since it does not aim to represent and account for every single facet of human experience and natural phenomena. It is a doctrine which bears upon real, concrete social antagonisms and produces the basis for the abolition of itsprimary causes.

That being said, there is not a necessary link between one's socialist persuasion and the belief in supernatural phenomena, or lack of this belief.
But it is importanjt to note that socialism necessitates an emphasis on the rigidly secular character of the revolutionary political government. Personal beliefs are a private matter.

[MarxSchmarx]

Which is all well and good, but considering Tolstoy spent half his time writing about how it's inevitable that all churches will totally distort the Christian faith beyond anything remotely recognisable as the teachings of Jesus*, I really doubt he would have been all too concerned with their lack of power vis à vis the state..
.

I use the term "power" guardedly. I did not intend for it to mean merely the coercive mechanisms or even the ability of an organized church to dominate certain social roles like education. Rather, the "power" of religion, especially as it opposes the state, is not just its parallel institutions (though these exist and can be quite powerful as well), it also applies to the claim of religion (and not necessarily an organized one) that its authority supersedes the authority of the state.

[smashcapital]

I do not think that religion is incompatible with a communist society. If anything it should be incompatible with a capitalist society. Religion has messages of being against greed and praising people who have decided to live a more humble life. This goes against everything that capitalism stands for and even the majority of lower and middle class people in this society want to strive to attain more wealth for themselves. Seems to have had contradictory messages in the past especially in feudalist societies where a King was ordained by God to live in great comfort, wealth, and above everyone else. Despite such contradictions it has actually flourished in such societies. But never the less, there will probably always be people that have religious beliefs even if a society in general is against such views. I do not think that such beliefs need to be promoted, but it is more an individuals choice if they want to believe in such things.