Conspiracy Theories

[Left]

Heya, didn't really know where to put this thread but I guess it fits in here.

I'm really interested in conspiracy theories, I find it extremely fascinating to read about them and especially the ones that are true, anyone got any good links for reading about them?
I found a great link link on Google "33 Conspiracy Theories that turned out to be true" from "Newworldreport" but I can't link it to you, not enough posts :mellow:.

I'd like for us to talk about conspiracy theories in general, conspiracies that turned out to be true and other things.

Feel free to discuss about things like Illuminati, New World Order, 9/11 and what not, just make sure you don't go overboard with it :)

Do you guys think the CIA is still doing sick experiments and such? Personally I don't think they're as extreme anymore but I'm sure they're still doing some creepy things.

[tbasherizer]

My pet conspiracy theory is that the Illuminati send people to revolutionary forums to try see how well the revolutionaries have caught on to their evil schemes. Then they report to the reptilian overlords, who then report to the Elders of Zion, who then report to the CIA.

;)

[Omsk]

Now i wont be able to sleep at nights.



:(

[Catmatic Leftist]

Conspiracy theories are reactionary. It replaces the idea that history is driven by class struggle with the idea that history is driven by hidden cliques. Also, they are not backed by empiricism.

[Robespierre Richard]

Is Stalin behind 9/11?

[Robespierre Richard]

Now i wont be able to sleep at nights.



:(

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IRtcOuRJmp8/SIc-iNFkjhI/AAAAAAAABX0/93mGyCZ7DEM/s400/OMG%2BSo%2BScared%2BChinese-1.jpg

[Astarte]

I think the conspiracy theories may actually be the "conspiracy" itself - isn't it obvious that the capitalists have used it as another subject to use to make money off of? With all the silly books, etc... it has the dual purpose of scaring the ignorant and misinformed by projecting this false omnipotent image of the ruling class out there onto society while at the same time selling them books and dvds.

[Meridian]

I think the conspiracy theories may actually be the "conspiracy" itself - isn't it obvious that the capitalists have used it as another subject to use to make money off of? With all the silly book, etc... it has the dual purpose of scaring the ignorant and misinformed by projecting this false omnipotent image of the ruling class out there onto society while at the same time selling them books and dvds.

Indeed, what a cunning conspiracy.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There are real conspiracies, but they involve small amounts of people (less chance of someone blabbing), and while the identities of the conspirators may not always be revealed, it certainly becomes widely known that there was a conspiracy if it has wide-ranging or strong effects.

The kind propagated by paranoid conspiracy theorists, on the other hand, always involve large numbers of infinitely competent people who always get away with it and who never spill the beans to anyone apart from the kind of social outcasts that conspiracy theorists typically are.

Most suspicious, apart from the dodgy "evidence" that is sometimes presented, is that paranoid conspiracy theorists always have a handy explanation for why things appear to be otherwise. In other words, paranoid conspiracy theorists constantly shift the goalposts in addition to interpreting evidence according to a priori conclusions.

[coda]

<<that history is driven by class struggle with the idea that history is driven by hidden cliques.>>

History isn't driven by hidden cliques.. but we know that capitalism and the rules of commerce for the ruling class definitely are. For example Enron and the Iraq war.

I certainly believe that some of the so-called conspiracy theories are based on at least a sliver of fact. I checked out that 33 list too. The political one that came to mind, besides the recurrent JFK one, for me was Watergate. With Watergate the pieces slowly leaked out over a couple of years before the whole entire picture emerged. That could have easily have been written off and overlooked thus leading to a second term for Nixon had not some people vigorously pursued it. so, not all "conspiracy theories" should automatically be written off as as unsubstantial waste of time. Because of the premise that conspiracy theories are only engaged in by the crackpot lunatic fringe of society, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the conspirators themselves create the myth and propaganda for something to exist as a conspiracy theory so the majority will distant themselves and they, the conspirators are able to operate unimpeded. just a thought...

[praxis1966]

Yeah, conspiracy theories can be be a fun diversion much like the movie Toy Story is a fun diversion but that's about it, IMO.

There are real conspiracies, but they're never the ones the "conspiracy theorists" focus on. Why? Because they're always looking for some kind of shadow government headed by some faceless hand wringing mad scientist type in an underground lair or a bunch of guys in a dark, smoky room whispering in hushed tones.

The real truth is that people are conspiring to slice and dice the world up for their own gain, but that they don't have to do it under the cloak of darkness a la the Illuminati. They do their business in broad daylight, like when former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay was welcomed regularly into the office of then VP Dick Cheney... Or when Goldman Sachs pays a financial rating company like Standard & Poor's hundreds of thousands of dollars to rate a company like Timberwolf who obliges with a AAA rating (the highest available), Goldman turns around and sells $600 million worth of securities in Timberwolf based on said ratings, despite Timberwolf being a well known unsound investment... Or when the Obama administration nominates former Goldman Sachs executives to key financial regulatory and enforcement positions in his government just as his predecessor [Bush] had...

There aren't any cloak and dagger conspiracies because there don't need to be. Capitalists get whatever they want because it's completely legal and when it's not, they have the money to get laws changed (either by lobbying or through campaign contributions). Hell, they even have the money to send the US military to war and I'm not just talking about Iraq. My grandfather once told my father, "US foreign policy is nothing more than an extension of its business policy," and this was a guy who was a career military veteran who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam...


With Watergate the pieces slowly leaked out over a couple of years before the whole entire picture emerged. That could have easily have been written off and overlooked thus leading to a second term for Nixon had not some people vigorously pursued it.

Uhh, Nixon was elected to a second term.

[coda]

Yup, I agree, Praxis.. it's all done now in the front room out in the open. That is how they are able to do lots of shit that the citizenry doesn't know about. That is where conspiracy enters... It's the things that the citzens are entitled to know full disclosure..if (even) half of the stuff was legal to do.

<<Uhh, Nixon was elected to a second term.>>

Achh!!!! i technically remember it, was xx during the impeachment, he didn't serve the full second term. By the time of the Iran contra hearings circa 1987, another nice conspiracy example that was much worse than Watergate--and later revealed the CIA drug running to So America when a CIA plane went down and was abandoned. thereafter it was fully expected the gov always were acting behind the scenes for the most part.... which pretty much would consist of a modern day conspiracy. But to me that is just the way government operates. We KNOW they have classified files and that categorically things are being done covertly --- without the public's knowledge. hence.. Conspiracy!!

add:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/nixon.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-transcript.html

.

[praxis1966]

Yup, I agree, Praxis.. it's all done now in the front room out in the open. That is how they are able to do lots of shit that the citizenry doesn't know about. That is where conspiracy enters... It's the things that the citzens are entitled to know if (even) half of the stuff was legal to do.

Calling the sort of thing I was talking about a conspiracy is one way to put it. Another way to put it is business. Yet another is fascism. To quote Mussolini, aka the asswipe who invented the stuff, "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." I challenge anybody to disprove the assertion that a complete merger of state and corporate power is anything other than what we now have.

[coda]

I wholly agree that we have a complete merger of state and corporate power.... It is the exact definition of fascism.. and couple that with ongoing war and the behind the scenes machinations done covertly (conspiracy), the plotting to dissolve certain foreign heads of state and next invasion and occupation and the attempt to seize all important natural resources.. indeed, fascist supremacy on a globalized level..

[F9]

i killed jfk!!!!!!!!!!
wait... i wasnt alive:unsure:

[NoOneIsIllegal]

i killed jfk!!!!!!!!!!
wait... i wasnt alive:unsure:
I smell a conspiracy.

[Minima]

The problem arises when the issue is actually of a conspiratory nature. then all the powers that be have to do is disavow their enemies as "conspiracy theorists" and then the stigma around conspiracy theories as a category does the work for them. It's my dream that one day, when we are in power, that the right will accuse the left of conspiracy. And we will turn to them and say; "why yes, it is! yes indeed!"

[bezdomni]

Osama bin Laden shot himself.

[Comrade J]

Yeah, conspiracy theories can be be a fun diversion much like the movie Toy Story is a fun diversion but that's about it, IMO.

There are real conspiracies, but they're never the ones the "conspiracy theorists" focus on. Why? Because they're always looking for some kind of shadow government headed by some faceless hand wringing mad scientist type in an underground lair or a bunch of guys in a dark, smoky room whispering in hushed tones.

The real truth is that people are conspiring to slice and dice the world up for their own gain, but that they don't have to do it under the cloak of darkness a la the Illuminati. They do their business in broad daylight, like when former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay was welcomed regularly into the office of then VP Dick Cheney... Or when Goldman Sachs pays a financial rating company like Standard & Poor's hundreds of thousands of dollars to rate a company like Timberwolf who obliges with a AAA rating (the highest available), Goldman turns around and sells $600 million worth of securities in Timberwolf based on said ratings, despite Timberwolf being a well known unsound investment... Or when the Obama administration nominates former Goldman Sachs executives to key financial regulatory and enforcement positions in his government just as his predecessor [Bush] had...

There aren't any cloak and dagger conspiracies because there don't need to be. Capitalists get whatever they want because it's completely legal and when it's not, they have the money to get laws changed (either by lobbying or through campaign contributions). Hell, they even have the money to send the US military to war and I'm not just talking about Iraq. My grandfather once told my father, "US foreign policy is nothing more than an extension of its business policy," and this was a guy who was a career military veteran who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam...

Really solid post.

Edit - Really tired atm so I wasn't gonna add anything, but before the conversation drifts I would add that Intl. Politics is a fascination of mine, in particular the way that states interact on realpolitik terms that serve their ruling elite in business/governmental positions, whilst all the time maintaining a facade of ideology.

I also think this level of 'conspiracy' on an international scale (such as IMF loans, 'aid' programmes, trade envoys etc.) is a massively underused argument from the left when attempting to convince others of our politics, as this culture of maintained wealth concentration and exploitation can be proven beyond doubt. Before you convince someone that there is a valid alternative to capitalism, you have to first demonstrate why we need to get rid of it, and this probably would compel a wider audience than discussing who should control the means of production.

[deLarge]

I have a conspiracy theory that the freemasons spend most of their time laughing at the hubbub over themselves, and then go do league bowling and eat dinner at fancy hotels while showing off their rings.

[ColonelCossack]

nazis made zombies in ww2 and they made a game about it.