Life is Pain

[¿Que?]

It seems that the natural condition for human consciousness is pain. Pain in the broad sense, as desiring and needing, as well as in the physical sense, as in hunger or disturbances against the physical body. Life in general is the constant pursuit of alleviating pain. When we find pleasure, we are conscious and not in pain, but it is only a transitory state. Eventually, we return to pain. If we are neither in pain nor pleasure, then we are not conscious, we are not ourselves. Either we are asleep, distracted or dead.

My question: Can communism change this?

[gorillafuck]

If life wasn't so hard due to capitalism then pains wouldn't stack up as much.

But abolishing capitalism wouldn't make all of the pain that comes with life go away no.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Can we clone people who we like just to go out with the clone? I am down for it.

[¿Que?]

If life wasn't so hard due to capitalism then pains wouldn't stack up as much.

But abolishing capitalism wouldn't make all of the pain that comes with life go away no.
Right, but that's not entirely what I'm saying. There will always be pain, but does pain have to be the natural (default) state of consciousness. It seems to me, that life is pain, and that the point of life is to alleviate the pain. But why? Why can't we live in pleasure, interrupted by occasional pain instead?

[¿Que?]

Can we clone people who we like just to go out with the clone? I am down for it.
That's just weird. But I lol'd anyway.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've often wondered a different (but similar) idea: if the government simply supplied me with the means to take my mind off my problems (such as "soma", the state-manufactured hallucinogen in the novel Brave New World), would I prefer that or not to a communist state/revolution?

[gorillafuck]

Right, but that's not entirely what I'm saying. There will always be pain, but does pain have to be the natural (default) state of consciousness. It seems to me, that life is pain, and that the point of life is to alleviate the pain. But why? Why can't we live in pleasure, interrupted by occasional pain instead?Oh. Well simplifying our consciousness to something that's default state is one of pain is way too simplistic. We humans feel stress frequently due to the way our brains are wired, but pain in itself isn't the default state of consciousness.

[¿Que?]

Oh. Well simplifying our consciousness to something that's default state is one of pain is way too simplistic. We humans feel stress frequently due to the way our brains are wired, but pain in itself isn't the default state of consciousness.
Then why do we ever do anything. Marx says that the mode of production determines consciousness, and the mode of production itself is nothing less than social and material organization in the capacity of meeting needs. You'd have to wonder, as Explosive's post implies, if we would even evolve if such wasn't the case.

[RedStarOverChina]

Somebody's had too many doses of Buddhism.

The Gautama Buddha had a major mental breakdown and suffered from severe backpain throughout much of his life (possibly a side-effect to sitting under a tree for 49 days?).

I can understand why somebody like him could feel only pain, in an age without asprin.

But come on. for the rest of us, there's a lot of fun to be had in the temporal world.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Capitalism can be abolished; women breaking your heart cannot be.

[¿Que?]

Capitalism can be abolished; women breaking your heart cannot be.
Yes, because that's exactly what I asked. :rolleyes:

[Il Medico]

Pain and pleasure, happiness and despair, they're two sides of the same coin. Happiness means nothing if you know nothing of sorrow, nor sadness if you know nothing of joy. And while sadness may dominate in our lives, i think this makes those rare periods of happiness all the better.

Could communism alleviate some of the despair we feel? I'm quite sure of it. Will it eliminate it, or make 'pleasure' our default? Not at all.

[Lyev]

WlBiLNN1NhQ

[Rafiq]

Capitalism itself is a very big cause of human suffering and pain. We don't know really what happiness actually is, in this kind of world .

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Pain is a mechanism developed by evolution by natural selection as a way of alerting us to (potentially) harmful stimuli. Unfortunately as it's wrought by natural processes it's a deeply flawed system - it may benefit the species by encouraging survival, but it can be literally torture for the organism concerned.

And about the whole, "if we didn't know pain we wouldn't know happiness" thing, that is utter bollocks. When I'm happy, high, having sex or in some other pleasurable state, I don't find it necessary to enter a less pleasurable state unless it's in the service of preventing future pain or ensuring future pleasure.

If I had a choice over whether I had to endure pain or not, why take the painful option?

[gorillafuck]

Then why do we ever do anything.People pursuing happiness doesn't necessarily mean that unhappiness is our default state. You could just as much make the argument that we avoid falling into a non-default state of unhappiness.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Welll life isn't at all painful for me, I don't get what your saying really. Why is life just baically pain? Its not for me :S

[praxis1966]

Somebody's had too many doses of Buddhism.

This is exactly what I was gonna say. The OP sounds like he's simply reworked the first three of Buddha's Four Noble Truths.



All existence is suffering.
Suffering is caused by desire (or attachment, or attachment to desire, depending on who's doing the translating from the original Sanskrit).
To eliminate desire is to eliminate suffering.
To eliminate desire, one must follow the Eightfold Path.

Then the Eightfold Path follows with a bunch of spiritual hooey and arbitrary (though not always necessarily bad) moralizing.


I can understand why somebody like him could feel only pain, in an age without asprin.

Here's where you missed the point. Buddha wasn't just talking about physical pain... Not that it matters one way or the other because we're still talking about superstition, but it's something I know something about as a former Buddhist.


But come on. for the rest of us, there's a lot of fun to be had in the temporal world.

True, but a lot more pain as well. I'd refer you at this point to Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for more on the topic...

[bailey_187]

Kl0LazzWDto

[Il Medico]

And about the whole, "if we didn't know pain we wouldn't know happiness" thing, that is utter bollocks. When I'm happy, high, having sex or in some other pleasurable state, I don't find it necessary to enter a less pleasurable state unless it's in the service of preventing future pain or ensuring future pleasure.

If I had a choice over whether I had to endure pain or not, why take the painful option?
I disagree of course. To live a life of with no sadness is to be merely content. If I had never suffered in the past, I wouldn't understand, nor have the happiness i currently do. This period, however long or short it may be, would just be another day, another week, another month. Completely meaningless. I'd rather live a life with pain and know actual joy, than life with no pain and only be content.

This is not to say that I do not think we should alleviate the emotional and physical pain we feel, I'm all for that. But I am quite against its elimination. It is a necessary part of life in my opinion.

[¿Que?]

I actually think that the crazy religious people got it right for once! Or maybe I just learned that through from all the incense burning hippies I meet. In any case, I fail to see how anyone could argue that consciousness is naturally in a state of pain, alleviated only temporarily by pleasure. It could be the other way around I guess, but the point is how would you prove it. From my experience though, I seem to go through pain, pleasure, and distraction (neither pain nor pleasure). The reason I think pain is the default is because if I choose to do nothing in my life, like absolutely nothing, then I will starve, be lonely, be thirsty etc. So it seems the impetus of action is avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure. But you have to act, or else you will have pain. You cannot have pleasure if you don't act.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a painful mid-term to write.

[Il Medico]

I actually think that the crazy religious people got it right for once! Or maybe I just learned that through from all the incense burning hippies I meet. In any case, I fail to see how anyone could argue that consciousness is naturally in a state of pain, alleviated only temporarily by pleasure.
Pain is not the default in my opinion, but neither is pleasure. Pain, it seems to be, is more common though.

[Meridian]

In any case, I fail to see how anyone could argue that consciousness is naturally in a state of pain, alleviated only temporarily by pleasure.
'Consciousness' doesn't have pains or pleasures. It is humans that have pains and pleasures. Otherwise I wouldn't ask you if your leg hurts, I would ask you whether your consciousness' leg hurts.


The reason I think pain is the default is because if I choose to do nothing in my life, like absolutely nothing, then I will starve, be lonely, be thirsty etc.
Perhaps doing something so stupid as being completely still and waiting would lead to pain eventually, but this doesn't make pain 'the default' (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean). You have pain when you have pain, end of story. You have pleasure when you have pleasure, end of story. Nothing mystical about it.


So it seems the impetus of action is avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure. But you have to act, or else you will have pain. You cannot have pleasure if you don't act.
But what you say could also be completely false, as in the following example: A person is trapped, and if she moves just a single inch a gun would shoot at her from afar. Now, doing anything at all would lead to pain. Additionally, say that if she just sits completely still for ten hours, her favorite piece of music is turned on, causing her pleasure!

This disproves your assertions.

[¿Que?]

'Consciousness' doesn't have pains or pleasures. It is humans that have pains and pleasures. Otherwise I wouldn't ask you if your leg hurts, I would ask you whether your consciousness' leg hurts.
I think, though, technically, it is the consciousness' leg that hurts. The brain is part of the nervous system, and pain is impossible without some sense of consciousness.

Perhaps doing something so stupid as being completely still and waiting would lead to pain eventually, but this doesn't make pain 'the default' (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean). You have pain when you have pain, end of story. You have pleasure when you have pleasure, end of story. Nothing mystical about it.
I wasn't implying anything mystical. Simply because I agree on a philosophical point with Buddhists doesn't make me a mystic.

But what you say could also be completely false, as in the following example: A person is trapped, and if she moves just a single inch a gun would shoot at her from afar. Now, doing anything at all would lead to pain. Additionally, say that if she just sits completely still for ten hours, her favorite piece of music is turned on, causing her pleasure!
The gun example is easy to refute. It's simply a matter of choosing pain or pain, there is no getting around pain. Unless you think having to sit still out of threat of being shot a pleasurable experience to have.

The music example is a little trickier. Sure she would have pleasure while the song plays, however the song has to end eventually. But even if the song played infinitely, other needs (pain) would arise that would supersede the pleasure derived from listening to her favorite song. Eventually she would have to either drink something or eat something, or else she'll suffer.

It's simply a matter of thesis/antithesis. Pain is the thesis, pleasure is the antithesis, and the impetus to "do" is the synthesis. Note that this formula does not work if pain and pleasure are reversed, that is if pain is antithesis and pleasure is thesis.

My assertion stands.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Life can be painful. But it's better than the alternative.

[black magick hustla]

hang in there buddy i am at daggers drawn with the existent too

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

It seems to me that life is mostly pain and misery, to varying extents according to people's conditions.

I think that without social and economic oppression, pain wouldn't exist to the extent that it does now. For now, we have our own versions of Brave New World's Soma; the media, anti-depressents, consumerism - all forms of artificial happiness and pleasure, designed to distract us from the general pain and misery of our existence.

I know its not all bad, but take a look at the world. Its a miserable and painful place for most people. Its largely the reason that I'm a communist.

[Os Cangaceiros]

hang in there buddy i am at daggers drawn with the existent too

hahahahaha nice

[¿Que?]

hang in there buddy i am at daggers drawn with the existent too
hahahahaha nice
Was that some sort of reference. I thought it was just motivational talk (sort of).

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://zinelibrary.info/daggers-drawn

[L.A.P.]

When I'm happy, high, having sex or in some other pleasurable state, I don't find it necessary to enter a less pleasurable state unless it's in the service of preventing future pain or ensuring future pleasure.


Isn't getting high that much better after not having money for weed for a month? Isn't finally having sex with that chick you always liked and had unrequited live over that much better? I don't really think we would know how great the things are that make us happy if we didn't know how much it sucked without them.

[¿Que?]

http://zinelibrary.info/daggers-drawn
You crazy anarchists with your zines and public recklessness.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Isn't getting high that much better after not having money for weed for a month? Isn't finally having sex with that chick you always liked and had unrequited live over that much better?

Only by contrast. Sure, it's nice to get high after a long time or to finally find someone, but it's the presence of those things that counts, not their absence.

Also, the causes for a lack of pleasure are more often than not the result of external circumstances, rather than personal choice. I might put off having a cigarette until after dinner because it's more pleasurable that way, but if I'm lacking cigarettes because of circumstances outside my control, then the net effect on my happiness is negative.


I don't really think we would know how great the things are that make us happy if we didn't know how much it sucked without them.

So what, we shouldn't eliminate involuntary pain and suffering because it might cause a lack of appreciation?! So we should bring back smallpox because people ***** and moan about more minor ailments? How is that anything but totally absurd?

[KC]

So what, we shouldn't eliminate involuntary pain and suffering because it might cause a lack of appreciation?! So we should bring back smallpox because people ***** and moan about more minor ailments? How is that anything but totally absurd?

Only in the face of death does one learn to truly appreciate life.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Only in the face of death does one learn to truly appreciate life.

Now that just doesn't make sense. People may be glad to be alive after a close brush with death, or they might fight their impending doom with every ounce of their strength, but I don't think either of those are the same thing as what you say. How can life ever be meaningfully appreciated if life is required to appreciate anything in the first place?

[Bilan]

Commies of the world, have fun!

[KC]

Now that just doesn't make sense. People may be glad to be alive after a close brush with death, or they might fight their impending doom with every ounce of their strength, but I don't think either of those are the same thing as what you say. How can life ever be meaningfully appreciated if life is required to appreciate anything in the first place?

Shut up.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Shut up.

Make me.

[Tablo]

Just give me a cybernetic body and I will be happy.

[Summerspeaker]

Life is suffering. Suffering is caused by desire oppression. Desire oppression can be overcome. The Eightfold Path social struggle is the way to overcome desire oppression.

I'm not terribly zen. :(