Diplomat: I can no longer represent Isreal

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Diplomat: I can no longer represent Isreal



Veteran diplomat Ilan Baruch quits, says he can no longer represent government; Israel's foreign policy is 'wrong,' he says, adds that blaming global anti-occupation views on anti-Semitism is 'simplistic, artificial'
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Foreign Ministry earthquake: A veteran diplomat says he has resigned from his post because he had a hard time defending the policies of Israel's current government, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Wednesday.


Ilan Baruch says he quit because "Israel's foreign policy is wrong," pointing to the Palestinian issue.
Should this trend continue, he warned, Israel will turn into a pariah state and face growing de-legitimization.

Baruch told Israel TV Wednesday that Israel's standing was in danger because of its policies, which he said were "difficult to explain."




Op-EdWhy Israel loses PR war /Moshe DannOp-ed:
Schizophrenic Israeli position led to paralysis of thinking, self-destructive withdrawals
Full Story (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4026143,00.html)




"I can no longer honestly represent this government," he said earlier. "As (Foreign Minister) Lieberman was elected by a large public in a legitimate manner, I cannot question him – but I don't have to serve him, and therefore I'm quitting."

"I have nothing against Lieberman the person," Baruch added. However, he said he had a problem with the diplomatic messages conveyed by the Jewish state at this time and its dismissal of former understandings pertaining to the Road Map and the Palestinians.

'Don't blame anti-Semitism'

Baruch sent a personal letter to all Foreign Ministry employees Tuesday to explain the motives for his decision.

"Identifying the objection expressed by global public opinion to the occupation policy as anti-Semitic is simplistic, provincial and artificial," he wrote. "Experience shows that this global trend won't change until we normalize our relations with the Palestinians."



A more than 30-year veteran, Baruch resigned a few years before the usual retirement age. His last overseas posting was ambassador to South Africa last year. He quit several months ago. The longtime diplomat lost an eye during the War of Attrition and joined the Foreign Service in 1974.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said it was unusual for a diplomat to criticize the government upon retirement. Officials at Lieberman's office declined to respond to Baruch's comments.


AP contributed to the story
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4036889,00.html

[GPDP]

In before he's accused of being an anti-Semitic self-hating Jew.

[Dimmu]

In before he's accused of being an anti-Semitic self-hating Jew.

Not this time.. This will get a lot of attention in Israel.

[RadioRaheem84]

Wow. Good for him.

[Viet Minh]

Wow. Good for him.

But bad for the rest. More moderates are needed within the system, not less.

[Robespierre Richard]

But bad for the rest. More moderates are needed within the system, not less.

What did moderates ever provide besides a position for the people in power to concede to when they want people fighting against them to stop? Elementary khvostism.

[Viet Minh]

They are also the ones who make peace treaties and concessions and compromise, in other words progression twoards peace and resolution.

[RGacky3]

I wonder how much air time this is getting in the US?

[Che a chara]

Mossad and Shin Bet are sharpening their knives :tongue_smilie:

Anyway, nice to see Baruch has finally developed a conscience. Let's hope he gets himself involved in matters regarding the Palestine issue and exposes the Zionist propaganda machine and doesn't stay silent. that would be a crime.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

[PhoenixAsh]

the problem is that the Zionist propaganda machine was already exposed when Israel confessed to spending billions to institutions and government organisations that advanced Israeli policy to governments all over the world with a specific aim to influence decission making.

It featured on page 5 or 6 in the papers and nobody cared.

:(


The CIDI (center for information and documentation Israel) is one of these organisations that informs members of parliament and government officials about Israel and Israeli policy. Its well known they get funding from Israel and its well known they function as propaganda and colour information...yet the govenment officially recognizes it as an informed advisory organ for government policy.

It also attacks and discredits opposition to Israel and Israeli policy and is known to prosecute for real or perceived anti-semitism. It actually holds a document which states what anti-semitism is which is composed of several points which basically say that if you criticise Israel you are an anti-semite. Last year they tried to prosecute an unknown arabic/black kid for saying he hated jews in an interview. Though that clearly was anti-semetism....it was also a 14 year old kid.

another example: "The CIDI is the gestapo of Israel" ---> saying that makes you an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI because I compare the actions of Israel to something that correlates or somehow compares it with something that has to do with WWII. Merely using it as an example makes me an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI since I am somehow equating Israel with nazi practices during WWII and therefore incite hatred eventhough I do not mean to do so.

[ComradeMan]

another example: "The CIDI is the gestapo of Israel" ---> saying that makes you an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI because I compare the actions of Israel to something that correlates or somehow compares it with something that has to do with WWII. Merely using it as an example makes me an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI since I am somehow equating Israel with nazi practices during WWII and therefore incite hatred eventhough I do not mean to do so.


The point is though, why the "gestapo"?

Of all the loathsome secret police units etc that have ever existed and of all the loathsome regimes too, it seems that the Nazis are always chosen for the rhetoric which intrinsically adds a "Jewish" dimension to the discussion. Why not the Politburo or the Stasi or the NKV etc? Also, the motives behind using the "Nazi" rhetoric towards the Jewish state are obvious and barbed.

This is also stupid because it plays into the hands of the propagandists too.

[Bud Struggle]

I wonder how much air time this is getting in the US?

If you Google the name Ilan Baruch you get a whole lot of nothing. Some Israeli papers some Arab blog sites, the Huffington Post and some San Francisco newspaper.

No main US news outlets.

[RGacky3]

Makes sense, imagen the media coverage if say, the same thing happened with a Cuban dipolmat, all over the news.

[Bud Struggle]

Of course. That would be important news! :)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The mainstream US news, and the leftist news for that matter, look at the issue solely as arab vs jew. Not the arab v arab or jew v jew reality that often exists, with the divisions among the same groups not as deep as the fault line between the two societies, but nothing close to heterogenous on one side or the other.

[RGacky3]

Except the situation in Palestine, is really Isreali state vrs Palestinians, through the occupation, the blockaid and the settlements, sure the palestinian authority might be corrupt, but they arn't the ones blockaiding, occupying and settling palestine.

[Bud Struggle]

Except the situation in Palestine, is really Isreali state vrs Palestinians, through the occupation, the blockaid and the settlements, sure the palestinian authority might be corrupt, but they arn't the ones blockaiding, occupying and settling palestine.

And that's what should be discussed not the machinations of a European Fascist state that went out of business almost 60 years ago.

[RGacky3]

I agree, calling them Nazis or whatever is'nt usefull, their actions are bad enough, they don't need to be tied to a old fascist movement.

But it should be discussed honestly, not this false concept that the palestianians do this, and the Isrealis do this, as if it was a ping pong match, its not, its an occupation, a blockaid and settlements, all totally illigal, and all destroying basic human rights and livelyhoods.

[PhoenixAsh]

The point is though, why the "gestapo"?

Of all the loathsome secret police units etc that have ever existed and of all the loathsome regimes too, it seems that the Nazis are always chosen for the rhetoric which intrinsically adds a "Jewish" dimension to the discussion. Why not the Politburo or the Stasi or the NKV etc? Also, the motives behind using the "Nazi" rhetoric towards the Jewish state are obvious and barbed.

This is also stupid because it plays into the hands of the propagandists too.

One step back. Look at what I said: ...saying that the CIDI is the gestapo of Israel is considered by CIDI to be anti-semitism....is considered by the CIDI as anti-semitism. Because using that example somehow incites hatred.

Now why would someone use the term Gestapo instead of NKVD/Stassi/Politburo? Assuming I would use that word to describe the CIDI....I could think of several reasons to use that specific term.

It always strikes me as incredibly amusing that somehow the comparison to WWII groups, policies and tactics can be used freely by Zionists and Israel but when used by opponents is denounced as anti-semitism....thereby claiming exclusivity over arguments of similarity.

And its used as an emotional argument devoid of any rationality and taken to an extreme "logical" position that suffering in the past somehow makes it right to inflict suffering on others. While offcourse the only rational conlusion should be that because you experienced the prosecution and suffering in the past you should not inflict it on others because you know first hand how incredibly horrid that is. ( I will come back to this)

WWII examples are indeed directly linked to the question of Israel and, lets face it, often used as an excuse to validate the actions and goals of Zionism and Israel. Which opens the debate for the opposition to these groups to do exactly the same. First to show the ridiculousnes of the excuse. Second to illustrate the similarities between the system that repressed jews and zionism in that era and the tactics and policies now used by the state of Israel and its proponents and the inherrent hypocracy in their arguments. Either by absurdism and/or by similarity....or by using the similar emotional motivation and connotation to underline the argument.

But it is that intrinsic link and its usage by Israel/Zionists which validates the comparison more than any other comparison to other groups you have mentioned. But there are offcourse several other reasons for legitimate comparison.

The specific ethnic and religious prosecution of specific groups which was all pervasive during WWII also plays a large role in the current situation with Israel. In which we have another distinct ethnic and religious group being discriminated against and being forcefully and politically expulsed from a specific country often with military force indiscriminately used against armed opponents, protesting civilians and even civilian residential areas.

Now term specificity (Gestapo) is chosen, which is not to say that I endorse it...but I will come back to this) for the role that organisation took during WWII and the similarities, both emotional and rational, it shows with the refered group (CIDI; and the tactics used by the government is is a proponent of).

The gestapo's role was to keep track and spying on dissident organisations, suspected dissidents in general, discredit them, prosecute them and actively working against any opponent to the system within Germany and occupied territory.

Which is what the CIDI is, amongst others doing and actively working to achieve and it is known to sent information back to Israel, MOSSAD and Shin Bet. Its a self proclaimed role inherrited in its function as active proponent of Israel. And its government ascribed role and complete submissiveness towards Israel/Zionism makes Holland more or less a vassal state in that regard.

It also considers itself above judicial and moral reproach. Though legally it isn't it is very hard to take legal action against the CIDI because their definition of anti-semitism is used by the government ....which as I stated include any criticism of Israel an its policy as well as opposition to Zionism. So filing legal suit against the CIDI for misinformation, slander and falsely discreditting an opponent will mostly result in failure or even counter procedures. This can be compared to the court rulings of the late 30's in which the gestapo was, by law, decreed to be above moral and judicial reproach....making it almost impossible to take any form of legal action against them,

Especially interesting is their role of informing Israel and its various intelligence services on activities of political parties, lobby groups, Palestinians here and of opponents to Israel. Which sometimes leads to legal action taken against people within Israel or to increased government surveillance on people or their families.

Now obviously the CIDI itself has no means of arresting people or torturing them within the boundraries of Holland....and I really do not think its fair to equate them to that specific branch of the gestapo...however...as pointed out above...the Israeli government has and sometimes does and sometimes does so on information given by the CIDI.

The comparison is also validated on several other grounds. The Gestapo was relatively small and relied for 85% of its cases on the active endorsement and free information given by local civilians to inform them....however its the meta-comparison that is of concern here.

Now... I said I would come back to two points.

The specific comparison I stated in my original post was made during a
lecture and discussion evening organised by the CIDI which a friend and I, attended....he is both Israeli and a jew.

During the lecture numerous references were made to WWII both to validate the state of Israel and its policy and to denounce the so called growing anti-semitism in Holland. Indeed numerous references were made to the meeting of Hitler with the Mufti and were used to show that Palestinians and Arabs in general were a 5th colon within Israeli society.
They also claimed that preserving the state of Israel was a jewish duty to the victims of teh Holocaust and pogroms throughout history.

I will not give you the whole interrruption speech of my friend...but the highlight of it was that he was completely sickened by the CIDI position, by the position of one of the attending Rabbi's and that the whole evening was a huge insult to every victim of the holocaust, including many of his own family because the validation of persecution, racism and ethnic cleansing/expulsion policies legitimised over the corpses of those who suffered the same faith is repulsive and abject. He also had a lot to say about the use of the word anti-semitism and the CIDI definition and tactics against open debate about the situation in Palestine. He directly compared the CIDI to the gestapo with the arguments used above.... He laso denounced the definition of anti-semitism as being instrumental in the increase of anti-semitism simply because it does not discriminate between legitimate forms of anti-semitism and legitimate opposition towards Israeli policy...ergo expanding the definition is a self fulfilling prophecy in seeing an increase and he also stated that the over use if the word means it will lose any form of meaning...

....THe whole time he remained calm and continued speaking eventhough he was repeatedly interrupted and shouted down. It all ended ofcourse in him being denounced as an anti-semite and for inciting hatred against jews. We were both expelled from the evening by the cops and legal charges were pressed against him which resulted in a settlement and a fine paid. I was given a fine for disturbing the peace...eventhough I remained silent the whole time.


>>
Now...to be clear...I am not making the comparison. I use the defence and arguments given by the one who did. It was directed not towards Jews in general but towards Zionists and the state of Israel. It in no way compares either towards the destruction of the Holocaust but instead refers to the racial and ethnic policies and towards the tactics used to discredit and track opponents.

I am sorry to say that such a disclaimer is almost always necessary given the fact that one is to easilly branded an anti-semite these days.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

The point is though, why the "gestapo"?


It's called "identifying with the aggressor." Zionists and Jews in general often obsess about the Nazis, as one would expect. Many of them find it easy to "do unto them what they did unto us," out of their near-intolerable sense of shame and survivor guilt, and this has been pretty much apparent since the days of the Hagganah. So if you don't want to be compared to the Gestapo, my advice is, don't go around consciously acting like the Gestapo. Abi gesunt.

[9]

It's called "identifying with the aggressor." Zionists and Jews in general often obsess about the Nazis, as one would expect. Many of them find it easy to "do unto them what they did unto us," out of their near-intolerable sense of shame and survivor guilt

wow brilliant class analysis, broseph...

[Milk Sheikh]

It's called "identifying with the aggressor." Zionists and Jews in general often obsess about the Nazis, as one would expect. Many of them find it easy to "do unto them what they did unto us," out of their near-intolerable sense of shame and survivor guilt, and this has been pretty much apparent since the days of the Hagganah. So if you don't want to be compared to the Gestapo, my advice is, don't go around consciously acting like the Gestapo. Abi gesunt.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

[Bud Struggle]

It's called "identifying with the aggressor." Zionists and Jews in general often obsess about the Nazis, as one would expect. Many of them find it easy to "do unto them what they did unto us," out of their near-intolerable sense of shame and survivor guilt, and this has been pretty much apparent since the days of the Hagganah. So if you don't want to be compared to the Gestapo, my advice is, don't go around consciously acting like the Gestapo. Abi gesunt.

No it complicates the issue to no end--it identifies the agressor for those people who sympathise with a certain viewpoint and thay are fighting words for those that do not. The object here is to change world opinion to change the plight of an oppressed people not to make yourself feel good as a Forum wit.

Verbage like that changes no opinions--they are fighting words that lets the opposite side use THEIR Nazi stories and words to better their advantage. There is nothing Nazi or Gestapo about Israel--they do bad thing--but they are no way connected to German Fascism AT ALL.

Speak the truth of the situation. The Israelis are brutal and opressing--but to make spurious analogies plays right into their hands. Using terms like Gestapo does more good than harm to the Israeli position.

The Israelis should plant a tree beyond the Green Line in the name of every person who compares them to the Nazis. You are a friend of Israel.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Israel--they do bad thing--but they are no way connected to German Fascism AT ALL.

The historic truth is, that Zionism is connected to German Fascism at the hip - and how could it be otherwise, Zionism was born as a reaction to antisemitism, not as a reaction to proto-Fascism as a whole; it carried over much of the argumentation of proto-Fascism into its own ideology. If you wish we can discuss the legal concept of Volksrecht as it evolved from late Hapsburg Vienna on, it's at the root of Nazi legal theory and Zionist theory as well: Herzl and Hitler were breathing the same poisoned air. Incidentally, there are countries in Europe where I, a Jew, would be tossed into a jail cell for even raising this question; and where the tossers would the relatives and friends of Nazi collaborators.

[Bud Struggle]

The historic truth is, that Zionism is connected to German Fascism at the hip - and how could it be otherwise, Zionism was born as a reaction to antisemitism, not as a reaction to proto-Fascism as a whole; it carried over much of the argumentation of proto-Fascism into its own ideology. If you wish we can discuss the legal concept of Volksrecht as it evolved from late Hapsburg Vienna on, it's at the root of Nazi legal theory and Zionist theory as well: Herzl and Hitler were breathing the same poisoned air. Incidentally, there are countries in Europe where I, a Jew, would be tossed into a jail cell for even raising this question; and where the tossers would the relatives and friends of Nazi collaborators.

Hell all of western civilization comes from the same historical roots. But Israel isn't a Fascist society. Israel had a reasonable democratic and free society for certain people--and not for others. that's not Fascist. Their economic system is is deeply 21st century Capitalist. And yea, Hitler and Herzl were neo-comtemporaries--but so were a lot of other people like Stalin and Trotsky.

You have to back off ideas the feed your opposition ammunition. Calling Israelis Nazis leaves a door open to calling any body that opposes them Nazis. That was an ideology that died 60 years ago--Israel is a bad state, but it's bad on it's own terms not on terms from a mid-20th century failed state.

Fight today's battles--not WWII.

[PhoenixAsh]

No it complicates the issue to no end--it identifies the agressor for those people who sympathise with a certain viewpoint and thay are fighting words for those that do not. The object here is to change world opinion to change the plight of an oppressed people not to make yourself feel good as a Forum wit.

Verbage like that changes no opinions--they are fighting words that lets the opposite side use THEIR Nazi stories and words to better their advantage. There is nothing Nazi or Gestapo about Israel--they do bad thing--but they are no way connected to German Fascism AT ALL.

Speak the truth of the situation. The Israelis are brutal and opressing--but to make spurious analogies plays right into their hands. Using terms like Gestapo does more good than harm to the Israeli position.

The Israelis should plant a tree beyond the Green Line in the name of every person who compares them to the Nazis. You are a friend of Israel.

I do not agree here. I think you are seriously overlooking the racial and ethnic background in both social and legal status and laws and policy enacted to directly discriminate against and marginalize unwanted religious and ethnic groups with an ultimate aim to subjegate and cleanse those from the territory.

I think Zionism is a form of fascism and I think a large part of its policies and tactics are similar to that of German Fascism....and that the continuous reference to the Holocaust, prosecution and the tactics used by groups of German society during WWII clearly shows that there is an intrinsic link.

Claiming such comparisons are spurious and claiming Zionism and Israeli policy has nothing to do with German Fascism and is completely dissimilar is a nice statement...but offer some arguments. In my previous post I defended the comparison on the basis of tactics and purpose used. I have seen no arguments to counter those except for statements without backup or basis offered of the contrary.

So explain to me why exactly comparisson of simmilar tactics and policy is not warranted or justified....especially since it is is being used by those we oppose with great succes when arguing against their opponents?

[Bud Struggle]

So explain to me why exactly comparisson of simmilar tactics and policy is not warranted or justified....especially since it is is being used by those we oppose with great succes when arguing against their opponents?

Tactics are just that tactics. The Gestapo and the Stazi had similar tactics--, they even had similar personel, but the Stazi wasn't Fascist. Same with the KGB or the CIA is you please. Same tactics--all used for a different totalitarian political system.

And if the people we oppose use corrupt tactics--that gives us the right? And it's people like you that keep bring up the Gestapo and Hitler and Nazism that keep those names and ideologies alive. Israel is a different state than any that has ever appeared in the modern world. Fight it for WHAT IT IS not for what it is similar to in the past.

The opression in Palestine is bad enough EXACTLY AS IT EXISTS with claiming some comparisons to bygone dictatorships.

You can see or not see similarities between Nazi Germany and Israel--that might be something for people to discuss in private or in school--but as a tactic to fight oppression: it's a bad one.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hell all of western civilization comes from the same historical roots. But Israel isn't a Fascist society. Israel had a reasonable democratic and free society for certain people--and not for others. that's not Fascist. Their economic system is is deeply 21st century Capitalist. And yea, Hitler and Herzl were neo-comtemporaries--but so were a lot of other people like Stalin and Trotsky.

You have to back off ideas the feed your opposition ammunition. Calling Israelis Nazis leaves a door open to calling any body that opposes them Nazis. That was an ideology that died 60 years ago--Israel is a bad state, but it's bad on it's own terms not on terms from a mid-20th century failed state.

Fight today's battles--not WWII.

That entirely depends on your definition of fascism. And I think there is a really viable case to be made to argue the state of Israel is fascist in nature....there are many points of the definition of fascism to which Israel complies or mostly complies or complies to some extend.

To state that Israel has no fascist nature but is instead something else entirely is deeply naive imo.

Its also naive to state that a comparisson with policies and tactics that were core to Nazi Germany can not be made if these are also core to Israel and Zionism its policies, laws and practices. There is an undeniable link and the mere fact that Israel denounces nazi-Germany but continuously refers back to it to denounce opponents or justify behaviour means its equally valid to point out that if you denounce Nazism you should denounce policies which are similar, should refrain from similar tactics, organisations and practices....

[Bud Struggle]

That entirely depends on your definition of fascism. And I think there is a really viable case to be made to argue the state of Israel is fascist in nature....there are many points of the definition of fascism to which Israel complies or mostly complies or complies to some extend.

To state that Israel has no fascist nature but is instead something else entirely is deeply naive imo.

Its also naive to state that a comparisson with policies and tactics that were core to Nazi Germany can not be made if these are also core to Israel and Zionism its policies, laws and practices. There is an undeniable link and the mere fact that Israel denounces nazi-Germany but continuously refers back to it to denounce opponents or justify behaviour means its equally valid to point out that if you denounce Nazism you should denounce policies which are similar, should refrain from similar tactics, organisations and practices....

Yea--but you might have noticed. It doesn't work. If you want to see similarities, fine, I'm sure there are some. But the plan's been tried and failed. Some see it others don't insteading of fighting injustice on a real level you decend into academic argument.

TheYou are moving the arguement off the present day West bank of the Jordan River and moving it to the East bank of the Rhine River of 1939.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Israel had a reasonable democratic and free society for certain people--and not for others. that's not Fascist.
It's what's called a 'Herrenvolk Democracy," a model that's not at all uncommon. For instance it's at the basis of much of American populism, even today.


You have to back off ideas the feed your opposition ammunition.
Ah, yes, "Mir yidn musn zusamenshteyn..."

[Viet Minh]

Its a case of Reductio ad Hitlerum, the Nazis are pretty much universally agreed to be the greatest evil of the 20th century, so by comparing them you can demonise an entire movement and even an entire people. Regardless of whether thats the Israelis or Palestinians thats unfair. Its apples and oranges, you could argue that an apple is an orange because they are both round, edible, similar weight, but for anyone thats actually seen an orange the argument would be meaningless. Furthermore it reduces the whole concept to nothing more than a cliche, and it is no use as a means of bringing in support. The ignorant masses of the World probably just think 'how can jews be nazis' and disregard the statement from there. The Israelis are not lining up Palestinians into concentration camps and Gas chambers, they are sending out soldiers and tanks into Palestinian territory which kill innocent civilians. If the Palestinian supporters spent more time raising awareness of this and documenting cases etc it would be alot more helpful than any comparisons to the Nazis or Fascists.

[PhoenixAsh]

Tactics are just that tactics. The Gestapo and the Stazi had similar tactics--, they even had similar personel, but the Stazi wasn't Fascist. Same with the KGB or the CIA is you please. Same tactics--all used for a different totalitarian political system. id lack

No..theye are not when they are derived from racial and ethnic policies. Something the Stasi did lack and Israel and its foreign institutions do not.



And if the people we oppose use corrupt tactics--that gives us the right? And it's people like you that keep bring up the Gestapo and Hitler and Nazism that keep those names and ideologies alive. Israel is a different state than any that has ever appeared in the modern world. Fight it for WHAT IT IS not for what it is similar to in the past.

O nice adhominem. :thumbup1: but completely baseless.

Italy was a different state...but fascist none the less. Different state does not mean you are not fascist in your policy....or do not have large similarities with fascism.

as stated in my post above...I think there is a v ery viable case to make to argue that Israel and Zionism are fascist in nature...and certainly in implementation.




The opression in Palestine is bad enough EXACTLY AS IT EXISTS with claiming some comparisons to bygone dictatorships.

The problem is that people support Israel and its repression and treatment of Palestinians, arabs and Muslims exactly because of that bygone dictatorship.....making it not so bygone as you try to make it appear.




You can see or not see similarities between Nazi Germany and Israel--that might be something for people to discuss in private or in school--but as a tactic to fight oppression: it's a bad one.

We will differ on opnion...I find it an incredibly good tactic to counter the very same arguments against me or others who oppose Israel when the very succesfuly compare us with nazi-sympathisers or its institutions....usually they immediately start to back track and bring the discussion back on a more civil track.

The whole point of the initial argument is that it does not matter if its a good or bad tactic...it matters that it is designated both in its direct use as anti-semitism and when you state that the comparison itself is designated as anti-semitism by the CIDI is considered anti-semitism.


To clarify...when I state the following sentence:

"Comparing Israel and its allies to the Gestapo is considered to be anti-semitism by the definition of anti-semitism by CIDI"

This sentence is considered anti-semitism by the CIDI...

Yet you seem to overlook that fact and instead try to discuss and debate the validity of the comparison...why?

[PhoenixAsh]

Yea--but you might have noticed. It doesn't work. If you want to see similarities, fine, I'm sure there are some. But the plan's been tried and failed. Some see it others don't insteading of fighting injustice on a real level you decend into academic argument.

TheYou are moving the arguement off the present day West bank of the Jordan River and moving it to the East bank of the Rhine River of 1939.

I what I have noticed it is very effective....not always...but most of the time. So I do NOT share your analogy here....

But you are also overextrapolating....you are arguing if its the only argument we use and the only tactic we use...and that its the main point of our arguments....which kind of completely misses the point of the original post and ignores the stated reason and method for the argument in the answer to Comrademan.

[Bud Struggle]

id lack

No..theye are not when they are derived from racial and ethnic policies. Something the Stasi did lack and Israel and its foreign institutions do not. No it isn't racial--it's religious. And it's a VERY similar tactic to what most Arab countries do when they exclude Jews or Christians form from full participation in their government.




O nice adhominem. :thumbup1: but completely baseless.

Italy was a different state...but fascist none the less. Different state does not mean you are not fascist in your policy....or do not have large similarities with fascism.

as stated in my post above...I think there is a v ery viable case to make to argue that Israel and Zionism are fascist in nature...and certainly in implementation. Then you better make the case. I don't see them being similar economically at all. I don't see a Furher in Israel--they have a very democratic government--that lets both Israeli AND Arab citizens vote. How is that similar to Nazi Germany?


The problem is that people support Israel and its repression and treatment of Palestinians, arabs and Muslims exactly because of that bygone dictatorship.....making it not so bygone as you try to make it appear. Not at all. The real politic is over land and who owns it--not over anything else. It's more business than history.


We will differ on opnion...I find it an incredibly good tactic to counter the very same arguments against me or others who oppose Israel when the very succesfuly compare us with nazi-sympathisers or its institutions....usually they immediately start to back track and bring the discussion back on a more civil track.

The whole point of the initial argument is that it does not matter if its a good or bad tactic...it matters that it is designated both in its direct use as anti-semitism and when you state that the comparison itself is designated as anti-semitism by the CIDI is considered anti-semitism. Maybe in Europe--I don't know. But do that in America (the only placre that really counts) and you will get people laughing and rolling their eyes at you.



To clarify...when I state the following sentence:

"Comparing Israel and its allies to the Gestapo is considered to be anti-semitism by the definition of anti-semitism by CIDI"

This sentence is considered anti-semitism by the CIDI...

Yet you seem to overlook that fact and instead try to discuss and debate the validity of the comparison...why? I don't care what the CIDI says--they have their motives and reasons for things and I'm not going to get caught up in their web of logic. They can consider what they want to be anti-Semitism. Who cares?

[PhoenixAsh]

Its a case of Reductio ad Hitlerum, the Nazis are pretty much universally agreed to be the greatest evil of the 20th century, so by comparing them you can demonise an entire movement and even an entire people.

Yeah...I have heard that bullshit reasoning before. It inno way disqyualifies comparisson of the same at all.....instead it is a blanket statement which could be transposed on everything.



Regardless of whether thats the Israelis or Palestinians thats unfair. Its apples and oranges, you could argue that an apple is an orange because they are both round, edible, similar weight, but for anyone thats actually seen an orange the argument would be meaningless.

Yeah...but we are not equating apples and organes now are we? We are actually eqauting green and red apples.

but to take it into the context of something you say a little bit fruther one...you argue that you can actually not compare anything to anything...not even apples with apples because each individual case will differ on some minor points.



Furthermore it reduces the whole concept to nothing more than a cliche, and it is no use as a means of bringing in support. The ignorant masses of the World probably just think 'how can jews be nazis' and disregard the statement from there.

Besides from being incredibly elitist...you could take this to its logical extreme for any argument offered as a statement without arguments...kinda like saying that Israel has nothing to do with german Fascism whatsoever without offerig arguments to provide for that position.

Instead you could back up your claim...as I have done...with why you say that.



The Israelis are not lining up Palestinians into concentration camps and Gas chambers, they are sending out soldiers and tanks into Palestinian territory which kill innocent civilians.

O...yes...but now you are committing the crime of overgeneralizing....remember the apples which are incomparible?

Its also reducing and simplefying the political system and context of Nazi Germany and its policies to the Holocaust and the death camps.

Overlooking racial marriage laws, property disowning, social and political marginalization, birth laws and numerous other activities against jews....and the harrassment policies used against political opponents. To name but a few.



If the Palestinian supporters spent more time raising awareness of this and documenting cases etc it would be alot more helpful than any comparisons to the Nazis or Fascists.

yeah...again...completely missing the point of the initial post. But hey...its not like that is not being done.

But you seem to be hell bend on focussing on something which is used in debate tactics and try to extrapolate that to it being somehow the main goal and tactic used. :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

I what I have noticed it is very effective....not always...but most of the time. So I do NOT share your analogy here....

But you are also overextrapolating....you are arguing if its the only argument we use and the only tactic we use...and that its the main point of our arguments....which kind of completely misses the point of the original post and ignores the stated reason and method for the argument in the answer to Comrademan.

No I'm not saying that it's the ONLY argument--but when you use it it become a focal point that the opposition can use to great effect.

The past is dead. Remember it--but don't use it to try to win arguments. The FACTS of the matter are bad enough.

[Viet Minh]

All these debates miss the point, we could spend eternity comparing Palestinian groups or Israeli Government to the Nazis or Fascists, and likewise we could debate the anti-Israel = antisemitism fallacy, but ultimately it nothing will change. The points we should be debating are fundamental issues such as illegal settlements. Until then you're really not even acknowledging the real problems, it just inevitably ends up in a slagging match and everyone becomes more polarised.

What we should be looking for are solutions, and lets face it if revleft can agree on anything there's hope for Israel and Palestine! :lol:

[PhoenixAsh]

No it isn't racial--it's religious. And it's a VERY similar tactic to what most Arab countries do when they exclude Jews or Christians form from full participation in their government.

O yeah...it has a definate racial component....simply because there are several laws adopted against arabs and those of arab descent. But I will not deny its mainly religious.... stating its religious does not really deny or refute the comparison at all...since...like we all know the prosecution of jews was also...religious....but sinced Israeli laws also upholds jewish descent through birth and genetics it makes it very much ethnic and racial.

We are not discussing the Arab countries we are discussing the Israeli's...who...different from Arabs...use the reference to the Holocaust and WWII and nazi's to justify themselves and debase their opponents.

In fact...isn't it also a prefered tactic of Zionist debate to point towards the wrongs in arab society to detract from the situation in Israel...and somehow make it appear that you can not attack Israeli policy wityhout also attacking the arab policy at the same time?




Then you better make the case. I don't see them being similar economically at all.

which reduces fascism to economics and not politics.



I don't see a Furher in Israel--they have a very democratic government--that lets both Israeli AND Arab citizens vote. How is that similar to Nazi Germany?

O yes...very democratic...where the Arab members of parliament are not allowed to participtae in over 50% of the committees...are continuously monitored, their families mointored, by mossad and Shin Bet, have their offices raided when suspected and can be detained without trail when merely suspected of assisting opponents of Israel or working against the security of the Israeli state....all of which happens a lot.



Not at all. The real politic is over land and who owns it--not over anything else. It's more business than history.


You seem to purposely do not get the issue. they support Israel because they are drawn in by the arguments of how they were so much prosecuted during WWII...they are taken in by the lies that opponents of Israel are anti-semitic making people afraid to state their opinion or dissent for fear they are somehow anti-semitic and because opponents are compared to Nazi's and nazi sympathisers.



Maybe in Europe--I don't know. But do that in America (the only placre that really counts) and you will get people laughing and rolling their eyes at you.

I don't live in the US...now do I...and neither does the CIDI...but you have similar organisations doint exactly the same.



I don't care what the CIDI says--they have their motives and reasons for things and I'm not going to get caught up in their web of logic. They can consider what they want to be anti-Semitism. Who cares?

well...if you would have read the posts...you would have seen that they are there to influence government policy...and directly paid and funded by Isarel, Mossad and Shin Bet to which it reports back about activity in the Netherlands which opposes Israeli politics.

It was mentioned as part of the debate how Israel has already been exposed of reserving and investing billions in organisations which sole puprpose is to influence policy makers around the world and to further the position of Israel.

as for the CIDI.... They have lobbied, succesfully, to get the government to adopt their definition of anti-semitism which now includes most forms of criticism against Israel and Zionism. which means its harder to criticise Israel.

Its also very worrying that you do not give a fuck...especially since the comparisson with the Gestapo was directly linked to the organisation CIDI. Basically you are arguing without any knowledge of what you are arguing against.

[PhoenixAsh]

No I'm not saying that it's the ONLY argument--but when you use it it become a focal point that the opposition can use to great effect.

The past is dead. Remember it--but don't use it to try to win arguments. The FACTS of the matter are bad enough.

again: its used in a reply of the opposition doing that.

But...seeing as how you stated in your previous post that you have no idea how the comparison was made and that it was made against the specific organisation of CIDI...which was argued...we are talking past each other.

[PhoenixAsh]

All these debates miss the point, we could spend eternity comparing Palestinian groups or Israeli Government to the Nazis or Fascists, and likewise we could debate the anti-Israel = antisemitism fallacy, but ultimately it nothing will change. The points we should be debating are fundamental issues such as illegal settlements. Until then you're really not even acknowledging the real problems, it just inevitably ends up in a slagging match and everyone becomes more polarised.

What we should be looking for are solutions, and lets face it if revleft can agree on anything there's hope for Israel and Palestine! :lol:

I think debating those issues gives legitimacy to the state of Israel and denies the bigger issue...should there be a seperation between Jews and Palestinians at all...the fundamental question is does the state of Israel have the right to exist as it exists now.

[Bud Struggle]

We are not discussing the Arab countries we are discussing the Israeli's...who...different from Arabs...use the reference to the Holocaust and WWII and nazi's to justify themselves and debase their opponents.

In fact...isn't it also a prefered tactic of Zionist debate to point towards the wrongs in arab society to detract from the situation in Israel...and somehow make it appear that you can not attack Israeli policy wityhout also attacking the arab policy at the same time? We certainly are discussing the Arab states--because once you let one anology in--why not let in 100?


which reduces fascism to economics and not politics. And Fascism is BOTH. So you don't have the economics and you are just making a weak case for the political. Best to move on, don't you think?


O yes...very democratic...where the Arab members of parliament are not allowed to participtae in over 50% of the committees...are continuously monitored, their families mointored, by mossad and Shin Bet, have their offices raided when suspected and can be detained without trail when merely suspected of assisting opponents of Israel or working against the security of the Israeli state....all of which happens a lot. And the Nazis cooked the Jews in ovens. Yea, I see the similarities.


You seem to purposely do not get the issue. they support Israel because they are drawn in by the arguments of how they were so much prosecuted during WWII...they are taken in by the lies that opponents of Israel are anti-semitic making people afraid to state their opinion or dissent for fear they are somehow anti-semitic and because opponents are compared to Nazi's and nazi sympathisers. Oh I get the issues--I just think they are meaningless. "You are like Nazis" "No we're not like Nazis" "No you are like Nazis" "No those guys over there are like Nazis."


but you have similar organisations doint exactly the same. That is EXACTLY my point.


well...if you would have read the posts...you would have seen that they are there to influence government policy...and directly paid and funded by Isarel, Mossad and Shin Bet to which it reports back about activity in the Netherlands which opposes Israeli politics. I haqve nothing against the Netherlands--pretty place.


as for the CIDI.... They have lobbied, succesfully, to get the government to adopt their definition of anti-semitism which now includes most forms of criticism against Israel and Zionism. which means its harder to criticise Israel.I know--so stop letting them feed on the entire Nazi BS. Let it die.


Its also very worrying that you do not give a fuck...especially since the comparisson with the Gestapo was directly linked to the organisation CIDI. Basically you are arguing without any knowledge of what you are arguing against.

Comrade--you could win ever battle and still lose the war. And that is what you are doing.

[Bud Struggle]

isreal will never have a right to exist.get real.

And the way it's going neither does Palestine.

You see there's something or a problem here.

[freepalestine]

And the way it's going neither does Palestine.

.tell that to 10million Palestinians.forget the arabs.
therell never be peace until zionism no longer exists.

[Viet Minh]

Yeah...I have heard that bullshit reasoning before. It inno way disqyualifies comparisson of the same at all.....instead it is a blanket statement which could be transposed on everything.

I'm not disqualifying the argument at all, it is an effective tactic, however it largely ignores the real problems happening in the middle east, and brings in some issues which are irrelevant to the situation.


Yeah...but we are not equating apples and organes now are we? We are actually eqauting green and red apples.

but to take it into the context of something you say a little bit fruther one...you argue that you can actually not compare anything to anything...not even apples with apples because each individual case will differ on some minor points.

Very true. Naziism is taken as a byword for Fascism, yet a fundamental aspect of Nazi ideology was reactionary anti-semitism, wheras the Italian Fascists had a prominent Jewish member. We as humans tend to categorise things because it makes it easier to understand, but there are exceptions to rules.


Besides from being incredibly elitist...you could take this to its logical extreme for any argument offered as a statement without arguments...kinda like saying that Israel has nothing to do with german Fascism whatsoever without offerig arguments to provide for that position.

Instead you could back up your claim...as I have done...with why you say that.

I didn't say Israel has no parallels to German Fascism, of course it does, most political movements have at least soemthing i common with others. My point was that the comparison itself does not really help the issue at hand unless it provides some sort of solution, in this case Russia and the USA/ UK invading Israel and dividing it into east and west with a wall between them isn't really a long term solution imo.
Can you back up your claim, as I missed it, sorry. What are the aspects you feel Israel and German Fascism share?


O...yes...but now you are committing the crime of overgeneralizing....remember the apples which are incomparible?

It seems to me its YOU that is overgeneralizing. You are effectively dismissing the reality of the situation in favour of a general notion of opression, its as though if your belief system of ISrael being Fascist collapsed you wouldn't give a damn for the people of Palestine. I'm probably wrong but thats the way its coming across. And I'm not simplifying the holocaust by any means, as I said before I feel that it is largely irrelevant to the situation in the middle east, any similarities should be treated as issues in themselves and not symptomatic of a wider 'fascism' that seems to be a term of convenience to some. For instance is Kosovo Fascist/ Nazi because it also shares similarities to Israel?


Its also reducing and simplefying the political system and context of Nazi Germany and its policies to the Holocaust and the death camps.

Overlooking racial marriage laws, property disowning, social and political marginalization, birth laws and numerous other activities against jews....and the harrassment policies used against political opponents. To name but a few.

Agreed, comparing Israel to the Nazis is simplifying the context of Nazi Germany, it also simplifies the context of the Middle east.
Your argument: Zionism, bad, Fascism, bad, Palestine, Good
At least thats the way it coming across, its not wrong its just not dealing with the individual issues. As gacky said the main problems are blockade and illegal settlement. Neither of these are applicable to Nazi Germany as far as I can see, and if they were how much can we actually learn from it?


yeah...again...completely missing the point of the initial post. But hey...its not like that is not being done.

But you seem to be hell bend on focussing on something which is used in debate tactics and try to extrapolate that to it being somehow the main goal and tactic used. :rolleyes:

The OP? I'm not talking about Israels tactics as a whole, which I object to, I only responded because I truly believe that comparisons between Israel and Fascists or Nazis are not helpful, they just polarise people further which is not what the people there need. And I know its not the main tactic being used, there are a lot of positive attempts being made to bring people together, to discuss issues in a progressive manner.

[Bud Struggle]

tell that to 10million Palestinians.forget the arabs.
therell never be peace until zionism no longer exists.

And when Israel no longer exists there will be 10 million Jews saying there will be no peace until Palestine no longer exists.

You don't think there might be a better solution?

[Viet Minh]

I think debating those issues gives legitimacy to the state of Israel and denies the bigger issue...should there be a seperation between Jews and Palestinians at all...the fundamental question is does the state of Israel have the right to exist as it exists now.

Well the reason there's a seperation is because both sides were attacking each other, its pointless playing the blame game now, because if it went back to the way it was before, aftyer decades of violence, there would be wideshed slaughter again, which I'm sure neither side wants.


isreal will never have a right to exist.get real.

tell that to 10million Palestinians.forget the arabs.
therell never be peace until zionism no longer exists.

A lot of palestinians would disagree, some have actually agreed to the pre 1948 borders. Of course as an exclusively Jewish State opressing Arabs Israel has no right to exist, there need to be serious changes. I don't know your position but if you're suggesting that the Israeli Govt army and piolice etc are abolished, and the walls brought down, I believe that will only lead to more bloodshed. A lot of people would take revenge for the injustices of rpevious years, it won't be that esy for people to forgive and forget and move forward.

[PhoenixAsh]

We certainly are discussing the Arab states--because once you let one anology in--why not let in 100?

Because the topic of the debate was Irael and its policy of denouncing opposition as ani-semitism. I which a reply was made about that and what is considered anti-semitism and an example was named which sparked this debate...NOT arab countries and NOT analogies which are not relevant to the state of Israels policy or conduct.



And Fascism is BOTH. So you don't have the economics and you are just making a weak case for the political. Best to move on, don't you think?


No I really am not making a weak case for the political....just stating I do is not enough now is it? Offer arguments.



And the Nazis cooked the Jews in ovens. Yea, I see the similarities.

Once again: reducing fascism and nazism to the concentration and destruction camps. Nice tactic:thumbup1:



Oh I get the issues--I just think they are meaningless. "You are like Nazis" "No we're not like Nazis" "No you are like Nazis" "No those guys over there are like Nazis."

No...you are really NOT getting the issue. And I would like to suggest you reread the roiginal post and the reply which sparked this debate i which you attack a position which was not a position at all.




That is EXACTLY my point.

Which is an illogical and incredibly stupid point. You state that nothing is the same and nothing can be compared to anything which completely refutes similarities which are the same and which can be compared.

Two different apples are never the same...yet they share numerous similarities and can therefore be compared.



I haqve nothing against the Netherlands--pretty place.

I know--so stop letting them feed on the entire Nazi BS. Let it die.

Comrade--you could win ever battle and still lose the war. And that is what you are doing.

The problem is we can not let it die because they continuously bring it up with great succes.

Nut you do NOT get the issue at all...I again...suggest you reread the posts relevant to the issue. And see where your entire position and arguments are completely missing the point.

[PhoenixAsh]

isreal will never have a right to exist.get real.

yeah...that is kind of what I am arguing here...you know

[Bud Struggle]

Because the topic of the debate was Irael and its policy of denouncing opposition as ani-semitism. I which a reply was made about that and what is considered anti-semitism and an example was named which sparked this debate...NOT arab countries and NOT analogies which are not relevant to the state of Israels policy or conduct. Are you saying that Arab countries aren't anti-Semetic? They are. There is no closed system. Once your introduce one anology, other analogies are certainly permitted.


No I really am not making a weak case for the political....just stating I do is not enough now is it? Offer arguments. You made a very narrow point--and you consistantly hold onto it. It means nothing in the larger context.


Once again: reducing fascism and nazism to the concentration and destruction camps. Nice tactic:thumbup1: Right it REALLY shouldn't brought up at all.


No...you are really NOT getting the issue. And I would like to suggest you reread the roiginal post and the reply which sparked this debate i which you attack a position which was not a position at all.I understand the origional point--and there is some similarity between certain parts of Israel and certain parts of Nazi germany--but it's a moot point. there are dertain tactics between all sectey service organiantions. You are going no where with it.


Which is an illogical and incredibly stupid point. You state that nothing is the same and nothing can be compared to anything which completely refutes similarities which are the same and which can be compared. I was quoting you, dufus.


Two different apples are never the same...yet they share numerous similarities and can therefore be compared. Sure--it's just a worthless waist of effort to do so.


The problem is we can not let it die because they continuously bring it up with great succes. That's dreamworld tald.


Nut you do NOT get the issue at all...I again...suggest you reread the posts relevant to the issue. And see where your entire position and arguments are completely missing the point. I read the orirional point--and it's a minor issue to the major point of changing the government in Palestine.

[Bud Struggle]

care to explain that.?
.

No peoples have any "rights" to any land. All land belongs to all people.

Remember?

[gorillafuck]

The mainstream US news, and the leftist news for that matter, look at the issue solely as arab vs jew. Not the arab v arab or jew v jew reality that often exists, with the divisions among the same groups not as deep as the fault line between the two societies, but nothing close to heterogenous on one side or the other.If it was presented as a political conflict and not a conflict of anti-Semitic terrorists versus Jews it would be more difficult for Israel to silence every criticism of itself through accusations of anti-Semitism.


No peoples have any "rights" to any land. All land belongs to all people.

Remember?You're trying to make it seem as though opposition to property is justification of making ethnic groups flee their homes. Obviously you either don't understand criticisms of private property systems, or you don't understand what's going on in Palestine.

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm not disqualifying the argument at all, it is an effective tactic, however it largely ignores the real problems happening in the middle east, and brings in some issues which are irrelevant to the situation.

Yes...but these situations are an intrinsic part of the debate. Once you debate the State of Israel there are three points which always will be brought up by zionists, their proponents and Israel:

1). Biblical rights to the land. Which believe it or not is actually widely accepted...even biby people who do not believe in God as a legitimate argument....because of the historical accuracy of the claim that there had been prior jewish kingdoms in the area.
2). The holocaust. Jewish persecution.
3). Anti-zionism and nazi apologistic behaviour.




Very true. Naziism is taken as a byword for Fascism, yet a fundamental aspect of Nazi ideology was reactionary anti-semitism, wheras the Italian Fascists had a prominent Jewish member. We as humans tend to categorise things because it makes it easier to understand, but there are exceptions to rules.I tink there are a lot of similarities...but there is a clear distinction. Both are different aspects of fascism...one directly and one introducing racial, religious and ethnical elements.



I didn't say Israel has no parallels to German Fascism, of course it does, most political movements have at least soemthing i common with others. My point was that the comparison itself does not really help the issue at hand unless it provides some sort of solution, in this case Russia and the USA/ UK invading Israel and dividing it into east and west with a wall between them isn't really a long term solution imo.
Can you back up your claim, as I missed it, sorry. What are the aspects you feel Israel and German Fascism share? the racial and ethnic and religious elements....acts of marginalisations and cleansing of the area of the unwanted group. designating a group as morally and ethnically and socially inferior. Which directly leads to dictatorship of one group over another...both in political power and judicial position.

acts of repression by intelligence services; para military organisations; state legislation; extra legal actions;

extreme nationalism

proposing continious military struggle against other nations...which in some casses is necessary...but is also used to legitimise continued occupation and is used as a preemptive argument. It also is used to legitimise continuous military actions within borders of other nations.



It seems to me its YOU that is overgeneralizing. You are effectively dismissing the reality of the situation in favour of a general notion of opression, its as though if your belief system of ISrael being Fascist collapsed you wouldn't give a damn for the people of Palestine. I'm probably wrong but thats the way its coming across. well...since my position the current state of Israel can not be allowed to exist with the same structure and institutions as it does now and continuously argue for a one, seculiar, state solution...preferably based on socialism...I tink the fact of Israel is fascist or not is completely unrelated to that.




And I'm not simplifying the holocaust by any means, as I said before I feel that it is largely irrelevant to the situation in the middle east, any similarities should be treated as issues in themselves and not symptomatic of a wider 'fascism' that seems to be a term of convenience to some. For instance is Kosovo Fascist/ Nazi because it also shares similarities to Israel? That depends completely on what the similarities are.

Your argument however which I said was simplification denounces comparison on the basis that Israel does not have gaschambers and concentration camps. My argument is that even though it has not...though it practices extra judicial detention on a large scale...there are numerous similarities in its policy which warrant and justify a comparisson.


Agreed, comparing Israel to the Nazis is simplifying the context of Nazi Germany, it also simplifies the context of the Middle east.
Your argument: Zionism, bad, Fascism, bad, Palestine, Good
At least thats the way it coming across,Now show me where I am saying Palestine is good. What I am saying...which has not been refuted n any way shape or form is that the Israeli state practices birth laws, marriage laws, discrimination based on ethnicity and religion, repression and actively works to purge its territory of its unwanted population which show incredible similarity with the practices, laws and tactics used in an era by a state and political system which they denounce.

This extends abroad to organisations which fuction as a form of secret plice which sole purpose is to influence and subjegate, spy on, inform on, and create an environment of fear in oppositon groups.


its not wrong its just not dealing with the individual issues. As gacky said the main problems are blockade and illegal settlement.I would once again like to point out that the whole debate started by this post in reply to OP which satted the practice of Israel denouncing opponents as anti-semitic:



the problem is that the Zionist propaganda machine was already exposed when Israel confessed to spending billions to institutions and government organisations that advanced Israeli policy to governments all over the world with a specific aim to influence decission making.

It featured on page 5 or 6 in the papers and nobody cared.

:(


The CIDI (center for information and documentation Israel) is one of these organisations that informs members of parliament and government officials about Israel and Israeli policy. Its well known they get funding from Israel and its well known they function as propaganda and colour information...yet the govenment officially recognizes it as an informed advisory organ for government policy.

It also attacks and discredits opposition to Israel and Israeli policy and is known to prosecute for real or perceived anti-semitism. It actually holds a document which states what anti-semitism is which is composed of several points which basically say that if you criticise Israel you are an anti-semite. Last year they tried to prosecute an unknown arabic/black kid for saying he hated jews in an interview. Though that clearly was anti-semetism....it was also a 14 year old kid.

another example: "The CIDI is the gestapo of Israel" ---> saying that makes you an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI because I compare the actions of Israel to something that correlates or somehow compares it with something that has to do with WWII. Merely using it as an example makes me an anti-semite in the eyes of the CIDI since I am somehow equating Israel with nazi practices during WWII and therefore incite hatred eventhough I do not mean to do so.

And the reply to Comrademan why specifically Gestapo was chosen....I gave a reply as to why that comparison was specifically chosen...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeMan http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2040271#post2040271)
The point is though, why the "gestapo"?

Of all the loathsome secret police units etc that have ever existed and of all the loathsome regimes too, it seems that the Nazis are always chosen for the rhetoric which intrinsically adds a "Jewish" dimension to the discussion. Why not the Politburo or the Stasi or the NKV etc? Also, the motives behind using the "Nazi" rhetoric towards the Jewish state are obvious and barbed.

This is also stupid because it plays into the hands of the propagandists too.
One step back. Look at what I said: ...saying that the CIDI is the gestapo of Israel is considered by CIDI to be anti-semitism....is considered by the CIDI as anti-semitism. Because using that example somehow incites hatred.

Now why would someone use the term Gestapo instead of NKVD/Stassi/Politburo? Assuming I would use that word to describe the CIDI....I could think of several reasons to use that specific term.

It always strikes me as incredibly amusing that somehow the comparison to WWII groups, policies and tactics can be used freely by Zionists and Israel but when used by opponents is denounced as anti-semitism....thereby claiming exclusivity over arguments of similarity.

And its used as an emotional argument devoid of any rationality and taken to an extreme "logical" position that suffering in the past somehow makes it right to inflict suffering on others. While offcourse the only rational conlusion should be that because you experienced the prosecution and suffering in the past you should not inflict it on others because you know first hand how incredibly horrid that is. ( I will come back to this)

WWII examples are indeed directly linked to the question of Israel and, lets face it, often used as an excuse to validate the actions and goals of Zionism and Israel. Which opens the debate for the opposition to these groups to do exactly the same. First to show the ridiculousnes of the excuse. Second to illustrate the similarities between the system that repressed jews and zionism in that era and the tactics and policies now used by the state of Israel and its proponents and the inherrent hypocracy in their arguments. Either by absurdism and/or by similarity....or by using the similar emotional motivation and connotation to underline the argument.

But it is that intrinsic link and its usage by Israel/Zionists which validates the comparison more than any other comparison to other groups you have mentioned. But there are offcourse several other reasons for legitimate comparison.

The specific ethnic and religious prosecution of specific groups which was all pervasive during WWII also plays a large role in the current situation with Israel. In which we have another distinct ethnic and religious group being discriminated against and being forcefully and politically expulsed from a specific country often with military force indiscriminately used against armed opponents, protesting civilians and even civilian residential areas.

Now term specificity (Gestapo) is chosen, which is not to say that I endorse it...but I will come back to this) for the role that organisation took during WWII and the similarities, both emotional and rational, it shows with the refered group (CIDI; and the tactics used by the government is is a proponent of).

The gestapo's role was to keep track and spying on dissident organisations, suspected dissidents in general, discredit them, prosecute them and actively working against any opponent to the system within Germany and occupied territory.

Which is what the CIDI is, amongst others doing and actively working to achieve and it is known to sent information back to Israel, MOSSAD and Shin Bet. Its a self proclaimed role inherrited in its function as active proponent of Israel. And its government ascribed role and complete submissiveness towards Israel/Zionism makes Holland more or less a vassal state in that regard.

It also considers itself above judicial and moral reproach. Though legally it isn't it is very hard to take legal action against the CIDI because their definition of anti-semitism is used by the government ....which as I stated include any criticism of Israel an its policy as well as opposition to Zionism. So filing legal suit against the CIDI for misinformation, slander and falsely discreditting an opponent will mostly result in failure or even counter procedures. This can be compared to the court rulings of the late 30's in which the gestapo was, by law, decreed to be above moral and judicial reproach....making it almost impossible to take any form of legal action against them,

Especially interesting is their role of informing Israel and its various intelligence services on activities of political parties, lobby groups, Palestinians here and of opponents to Israel. Which sometimes leads to legal action taken against people within Israel or to increased government surveillance on people or their families.

Now obviously the CIDI itself has no means of arresting people or torturing them within the boundraries of Holland....and I really do not think its fair to equate them to that specific branch of the gestapo...however...as pointed out above...the Israeli government has and sometimes does and sometimes does so on information given by the CIDI.

The comparison is also validated on several other grounds. The Gestapo was relatively small and relied for 85% of its cases on the active endorsement and free information given by local civilians to inform them....however its the meta-comparison that is of concern here.

Now... I said I would come back to two points.

The specific comparison I stated in my original post was made during a
lecture and discussion evening organised by the CIDI which a friend and I, attended....he is both Israeli and a jew.

During the lecture numerous references were made to WWII both to validate the state of Israel and its policy and to denounce the so called growing anti-semitism in Holland. Indeed numerous references were made to the meeting of Hitler with the Mufti and were used to show that Palestinians and Arabs in general were a 5th colon within Israeli society.
They also claimed that preserving the state of Israel was a jewish duty to the victims of teh Holocaust and pogroms throughout history.

I will not give you the whole interrruption speech of my friend...but the highlight of it was that he was completely sickened by the CIDI position, by the position of one of the attending Rabbi's and that the whole evening was a huge insult to every victim of the holocaust, including many of his own family because the validation of persecution, racism and ethnic cleansing/expulsion policies legitimised over the corpses of those who suffered the same faith is repulsive and abject. He also had a lot to say about the use of the word anti-semitism and the CIDI definition and tactics against open debate about the situation in Palestine. He directly compared the CIDI to the gestapo with the arguments used above.... He laso denounced the definition of anti-semitism as being instrumental in the increase of anti-semitism simply because it does not discriminate between legitimate forms of anti-semitism and legitimate opposition towards Israeli policy...ergo expanding the definition is a self fulfilling prophecy in seeing an increase and he also stated that the over use if the word means it will lose any form of meaning...

....THe whole time he remained calm and continued speaking eventhough he was repeatedly interrupted and shouted down. It all ended ofcourse in him being denounced as an anti-semite and for inciting hatred against jews. We were both expelled from the evening by the cops and legal charges were pressed against him which resulted in a settlement and a fine paid. I was given a fine for disturbing the peace...eventhough I remained silent the whole time.


>>
Now...to be clear...I am not making the comparison. I use the defence and arguments given by the one who did. It was directed not towards Jews in general but towards Zionists and the state of Israel. It in no way compares either towards the destruction of the Holocaust but instead refers to the racial and ethnic policies and towards the tactics used to discredit and track opponents.

I am sorry to say that such a disclaimer is almost always necessary given the fact that one is to easilly branded an anti-semite these days.



Its function was chosen to show the position and extreme to which the position of these group lead in stifling free speech by denouncing it as anti-semitism if you even give an example of what they consider to be anti-semitism.

Now...personally I think the state of Israel is fascist in nature....is it fascist in every aspect? No...but in enough aspects which are relevant to be able to make the claim. And my personal position is that a comparisson on similarities is justified on principle...becaue I do follow the line of reasoning above....and the stae of Israel so denounces averything to do with it as being repulsive and denounces its opponents as being anti-semites and in some cases as being nazi apologists.

Now...that has somehow been made into a debate about comparison as a tactic. Instead of what the subject really is: denouncing opposition to Israel as anti-semitism and redefining anti-semitism to include most critique of Israel.




Neither of these are applicable to Nazi Germany as far as I can see, and if they were how much can we actually learn from it?Well...I do not think these are the main issues at all. But why do these take place? Its because the state of israel holds the position that it is not allowed for anybody else than a jew to hold land in Israel and all Palestinians should be expelled and disowned. So solving them has very much to do with the racial/ethnic and religious laws and views of the state of Israel.

Which is impossible without destroying the institution of the current state and form a new one. To clarify...this does not mean the destruction of its inhabitants.



The OP? I'm not talking about Israels tactics as a whole, which I object to, I only responded because I truly believe that comparisons between Israel and Fascists or Nazis are not helpful, they just polarise people further which is not what the people there need. And I know its not the main tactic being used, there are a lot of positive attempts being made to bring people together, to discuss issues in a progressive manner.Yeah...reread the spoilers I posted. You are arguing against a point which was not made.

[Viet Minh]

You're trying to make it seem as though opposition to property is justification of making ethnic groups flee their homes. Obviously you either don't understand criticisms of private property systems, or you don't understand what's going on in Palestine.

You're putting words in his mouth, he didnt say that. Besides jews have fled from palestinian territory (there are very few jews in palestine to my knowledge) so its rather a selctive view of history. His point, as I understood it, was that both sides are guilty of the same thing, just because one side happens to have 'won' or have the upper hand doesn't make them right or wrong, ultimately the leftist view is that there should be no Israel, or Palestine.

[Bud Struggle]

You're trying to make it seem as though opposition to property is justification of making ethnic groups flee their homes. Obviously you either don't understand criticisms of private property systems, or you don't understand what's going on in Palestine.

No you misunderstand--There is no problem with private property being owned by individual people, And if personal land was taken from individual people it should be returned or paid for--but certainly you don't believe that certain ethnic groups have any EXCLUSIVE right to any countries. If you think that, you position is exactly the same as the Zionists.

[PhoenixAsh]

Are you saying that Arab countries aren't anti-Semetic? They are. There is no closed system. Once your introduce one anology, other analogies are certainly permitted.

No...I am arguing that their position is not the topic not a valid comparison in the light of the debate. It is a valid discussion topic but not in the light of this thread...since Arab policy does not ogically follow in the line of OP:

diplomat quits over Israeli tactics denouncing opposition as anti-semitism --> example of redefining anti semitismf by organisations funded by Israel abroad to persuade legislation and policy which includes criticism of Israel as anti-semetic --> example given which includes given the example as what is considered anti-semetic by that definition as being considered anti-semitic. --> question why that specific comparison was chosen --> explanation based on arguments in the light of the policy of Israel.

Arab nations and their policy do not feature in that line of debate.

But to once again state...you are arguing against a point which was not made.



You made a very narrow point--and you consistantly hold onto it. It means nothing in the larger context.

read my reply to loyal4life



Right it REALLY shouldn't brought up at all.

tell that to the opposition which actually intrinsically links the creation of the state of Israel and its coninued legitimacy to it. Comparing opponents of Israel with great succes to nazi sympathisers...and justifying its acts as being a simple right to selfdefence because they were prosecuted during the holocaust.

Saying it should not be brough up at all is whishful thinking...which was the original point made.

But what you do in your arguments is equally base....reducing prosecution of jews to their mere destruction...denies the whole context and prelude to it. Which is actually taking place in Israe more and more in case you have not ntived with increasing calls amongst the population for expelling the arabs, muslims and palestinians from the broders of the state of Israel and an increase of extremists who claim the only good Palestinian is a dead one.



I understand the origional point--and there is some similarity between certain parts of Israel and certain parts of Nazi germany

Then we are in agreement on that.



--but it's a moot point. there are dertain tactics between all sectey service organiantions. You are going no where with it.

As I stated...yes...actually we are...because it imediately leads to back tracking of arguments of nazi-sympathy and anti-semitism with ongoing debates in which that accusation is thrown around. It serves as a check and balance....deflecting teh argument of similarities and pointing out the futility of the comparison in debate....which is a point I made several times....thank you for catching up here...



Second to illustrate the similarities between the system that repressed jews and zionism in that era and the tactics and policies now used by the state of Israel and its proponents and the inherrent hypocracy in their arguments. Either by absurdism and/or by similarity....or by using the similar emotional motivation and connotation to underline the argument.




I was quoting you, dufus.


Yes and I was replying to your argument you made out of that....ie...your point.



Sure--it's just a worthless waist of effort to do so.

what a stupid position...it entirely depends on the context and the goal.



That's dreamworld tald.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I don't know what tald means.





I read the orirional point--and it's a minor issue to the major point of changing the government in Palestine.

Yes...as I stated several times it served as an example for which calrification was asked.....and yet you chose to make it into a large debate abuot the validity or invalidity of comparing Israel to Nazi's and fascists within the larger context of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict....

[gorillafuck]

I don't support palestinian nationalism but I'm not going to argue with people who equate violence of the colonized with violence of the colonizers.

[Thug Lessons]

I don't support palestinian nationalism but I'm not going to argue with people who equate violence of the colonized with violence of the colonizers.

Go to hell for not supporting Palestinian nationalism. Long live a united front of Fatah, Hamas and the PFLP against Israeli imperialism.

[PhoenixAsh]

Go to hell for not supporting Palestinian nationalism. Long live a united front of Fatah, Hamas and the PFLP against Israeli imperialism.

stop trolling

[Thug Lessons]

I do occasionally troll, but I do actually support Palestinian self-determination and I'm surprised how unpopular that (and national liberation generally) is here.

[PhoenixAsh]

I do occasionally troll, but I do actually support Palestinian self-determination and I'm surprised how unpopular that (and national liberation generally) is here.

Its unpopular because nationalism is actually running counter opposed to the socialist idea that nations as we currently know them are actually constructs to devide workers and propagate land ownership instead of collective ownership of land....

Hamas, Fatah and PLFP are not interested in furthering socialism and are in fact horribly reactionary...they also deny the fact that several million jews have rights to. Though indisputably their fight is against Israels imperialist and oppressive regime...the solution they offer is more of the same. They are symptoms of and repellent to and cause for the continuation of the conflict....

Thats why the conflict is so incredibly difficult...and not only a question of national liberation but also of what happens next.

[Viet Minh]

Yes...but these situations are an intrinsic part of the debate. Once you debate the State of Israel there are three points which always will be brought up by zionists, their proponents and Israel:


1). Biblical rights to the land. Which believe it or not is actually widely accepted...even biby people who do not believe in God as a legitimate argument....because of the historical accuracy of the claim that there had been prior jewish kingdoms in the area.

That is not a legitimate argument in my opinion, regardless of any religious aspect by that logic Israel could belong to Greece or Italy. The Palestinian claim over all of Palestine falls into the same category however, both are equally reactionary.


2). The holocaust. Jewish persecution.

Well as I've said, thats clearly bullshit, and equally when applied in reverse. I can understand if a supporter of Israel uses that logic, you have every right to respond with similar comparisons, but otherwise its defunct.
To play devils advocate here though, Palestinian issue aside, do you support the creation of a Jewish state anywhere else, given their persecution in other countries?


3). Anti-zionism and nazi apologistic behaviour.

Thats tarring everyone with the same brush. One palestinian fires a rocket into Israel and 'all palestinians are terrorists'. One Israeli soldier shoots an unarmed civilian and they are all opressors. Both sides have a rsponisbilty to curb violence by their own side.


I tink there are a lot of similarities...but there is a clear distinction. Both are different aspects of fascism...one directly and one introducing racial, religious and ethnical elements.

the racial and ethnic and religious elements....acts of marginalisations and cleansing of the area of the unwanted group. designating a group as morally and ethnically and socially inferior. Which directly leads to dictatorship of one group over another...both in political power and judicial position.

These are quite vague terms, and could be applied to both sides. Yes Israel came out 'on top' but it is not a dictatorship, Hamas govern the Gaza strip for example, not the Israeli Government. Within Israel itself very few would describe it as a dictatorship.


acts of repression by intelligence services; para military organisations; state legislation; extra legal actions;

extreme nationalism

proposing continious military struggle against other nations...which in some casses is necessary...but is also used to legitimise continued occupation and is used as a preemptive argument. It also is used to legitimise continuous military actions within borders of other nations.

As previosuly stated intelligence services are not unique to fascism, you find them in most ostensibly socialist countries as well. Paramilitary organisations ended with the creation of Israel, the only groups widely labelled paramilitary are Palestinian ones. I'm not criticising those groups, just putting it into context of your argument.
Extreme Nationalism - to me Nationalism is the antithesis of Imperialism, which is the more usual allegation aimed at Israel.
As for military struggle against other nations, I assume you mean Palestine, aside from conspiracy theories I don't know of any wider agenda, Israel serves its own interests. And of course I absolutely oppose any incursion of Israeli forces into Palestinian territory, and vice versa (legal Israeli territory at least)


well...since my position the current state of Israel can not be allowed to exist with the same structure and institutions as it does now and continuously argue for a one, seculiar, state solution...preferably based on socialism...I tink the fact of Israel is fascist or not is completely unrelated to that.

I would agree completely, however there are a lot who don't, and inevitably if you forced palestinians and israeli together again, there would be bloodshed. Maybe I can convert you to my three state solution? :thumbup1:


That depends completely on what the similarities are.

Your argument however which I said was simplification denounces comparison on the basis that Israel does not have gaschambers and concentration camps. My argument is that even though it has not...though it practices extra judicial detention on a large scale...there are numerous similarities in its policy which warrant and justify a comparisson.

If its political system is Fascist, it merits comparison, however I think most agree here it isn't. It is authoritarian, which means the left should oppose it much like they (generally) do with Libya etc for the same reason.


Now show me where I am saying Palestine is good. What I am saying...which has not been refuted n any way shape or form is that the Israeli state practices birth laws, marriage laws, discrimination based on ethnicity and religion, repression and actively works to purge its territory of its unwanted population which show incredible similarity with the practices, laws and tactics used in an era by a state and political system which they denounce.

Okay I apologise, sometiems the opposition to Israel results in an unquestioning support for all things Palestinian, I assumed that is the position you were coming from. I share your concerns about Israeli policy, I think everyone here does, but your one state solution I don't think will bring about a better quality of life for the common people, in fact I soemwhat suspect it will return to the chaos of the 1920 Palestine riots, or worse.


This extends abroad to organisations which fuction as a form of secret plice which sole purpose is to influence and subjegate, spy on, inform on, and create an environment of fear in oppositon groups.

Which secret police exactly? I don't know anything about that, all I'll say is there is a line between state security, and personal freedom. There are many groups which cross that line but not always fascist per se. ie kgb, cia.


I would once again like to point out that the whole debate started by this post in reply to OP which satted the practice of Israel denouncing opponents as anti-semitic:



10
I think I have made my views on that clear, I do not accpet that criticism of Israel = antisemitism.


And the reply to Comrademan why specifically Gestapo was chosen....I gave a reply as to why that comparison was specifically chosen...


Its function was chosen to show the position and extreme to which the position of these group lead in stifling free speech by denouncing it as anti-semitism if you even give an example of what they consider to be anti-semitism.

GOTO 10


Now...personally I think the state of Israel is fascist in nature....is it fascist in every aspect? No...but in enough aspects which are relevant to be able to make the claim. And my personal position is that a comparisson on similarities is justified on principle...becaue I do follow the line of reasoning above....and the stae of Israel so denounces averything to do with it as being repulsive and denounces its opponents as being anti-semites and in some cases as being nazi apologists.

Aaaand you've just done exactly what you're criticisng Israel for.. If you can say Israel is Fascist why can't Israel say you are fascist?


Now...that has somehow been made into a debate about comparison as a tactic. Instead of what the subject really is: denouncing opposition to Israel as anti-semitism and redefining anti-semitism to include most critique of Israel.

Nobodies really debating that I don't think, me personally I'm just saying that doesn't logically extend to Israel being Fascist.


Well...I do not think these are the main issues at all. But why do these take place? Its because the state of israel holds the position that it is not allowed for anybody else than a jew to hold land in Israel and all Palestinians should be expelled and disowned. So solving them has very much to do with the racial/ethnic and religious laws and views of the state of Israel.

Which is impossible without destroying the institution of the current state and form a new one. To clarify...this does not mean the destruction of its inhabitants.

Glad to hear it. But really do we need to destroy Israel? As I said before the State of Israel, horrific as it is, may actually be holding back a far more violent and sustained civil war. What we need is progression, looking forward not back.


I truly believe that comparisons between Israel and Fascists or Nazis are not helpful


Yeah...reread the spoilers I posted. You are arguing against a point which was not made.


Now...personally I think the state of Israel is fascist in nature....

[Thug Lessons]

Its unpopular because nationalism is actually running counter opposed to the socialist idea that nations as we currently know them are actually constructs to devide workers and propagate land ownership instead of collective ownership of land.... Yeah, and I think that's a totally useless sentiment propagated by idealists who are uniterested in anything beyond advancing their utopian vision. Freedom for the Palestinians means nothing because it's just a lesser evil, so who cares what happens between now and anarchy?



Hamas, Fatah and PLFP are not interested in furthering socialism and are in fact horribly reactionary...they also deny the fact that several million jews have rights to. Though indisputably their fight is against Israels imperialist and oppressive regime...the solution they offer is more of the same. They are symptoms of and repellent to and cause for the continuation of the conflict....

Thats why the conflict is so incredibly difficult...and not only a question of national liberation but also of what happens next.

Those groups all have differing views. They respectively endorse a two-state solution, a two-state solution and a one-state solution. Despite what you might have heard, none of them want to kill all the Jews.

[PhoenixAsh]

That is not a legitimate argument in my opinion, regardless of any religious aspect by that logic Israel could belong to Greece or Italy. The Palestinian claim over all of Palestine falls into the same category however, both are equally reactionary.


neither do I....and it is not legitimate. However it is one which is almost impossible to refute.



Well as I've said, thats clearly bullshit, and equally when applied in reverse. I can understand if a supporter of Israel uses that logic, you have every right to respond with similar comparisons, but otherwise its defunct.

Yes...that was my initial position.



To play devils advocate here though, Palestinian issue aside, do you support the creation of a Jewish state anywhere else, given their persecution in other countries?

No, I do not. Problems are to be solved inside the countries....and the logic behind this denies a socialist solution to be the only solution to the problem. Creating a new state anywhere else is imperialism.



Thats tarring everyone with the same brush. One palestinian fires a rocket into Israel and 'all palestinians are terrorists'. One Israeli soldier shoots an unarmed civilian and they are all opressors. Both sides have a rsponisbilty to curb violence by their own side.

Yes...it is...


>>> I am not quite clear if you understood that these mentioned arguments are the ones brought up by the Zionists and the state of Israel....but just in case I would like to state that again.




These are quite vague terms, and could be applied to both sides. Yes Israel came out 'on top' but it is not a dictatorship, Hamas govern the Gaza strip for example, not the Israeli Government. Within Israel itself very few would describe it as a dictatorship.

No...they really aren't and can't.


Its a dictatorship of one group over another. One group holds political power and one group has been given voting rights but its representatives are not allowed to vote on al issues. Neither is the judicial and social position of b oth groups the same...and the position of one is relaly dependent on the intentions of the other and not dependent on their consent. Basically this follows the scholastic definition of dictatorship....in which dictatorship is defined as the political system which refutes denmocratic rights to parts of its population from the aspect of that part of the population.


As previosuly stated intelligence services are not unique to fascism, you find them in most ostensibly socialist countries as well. Paramilitary organisations ended with the creation of Israel, the only groups widely labelled paramilitary are Palestinian ones.

Intelligence services itself are not...but it does entirely depend on the context in which they operate and the function they hold.

Really? You do not think Settlers and orthodox armed groups are paramilitary?




Extreme Nationalism - to me Nationalism is the antithesis of Imperialism, which is the more usual allegation aimed at Israel.


Extrene nationalism is certainly not an antitheses of Imperialism.



As for military struggle against other nations, I assume you mean Palestine, aside from conspiracy theories I don't know of any wider agenda, Israel serves its own interests. And of course I absolutely oppose any incursion of Israeli forces into Palestinian territory, and vice versa (legal Israeli territory at least)

you may have missed the continued calls for armed intervention in Iran....and continued incursions into Lebanon...or the assisinations carried out by mossad against opponents in other countries.



I would agree completely, however there are a lot who don't, and inevitably if you forced palestinians and israeli together again, there would be bloodshed. Maybe I can convert you to my three state solution? :thumbup1:

No...you can't :)



If its political system is Fascist, it merits comparison, however I think most agree here it isn't. It is authoritarian, which means the left should oppose it much like they (generally) do with Libya etc for the same reason.

...




Okay I apologise, sometiems the opposition to Israel results in an unquestioning support for all things Palestinian, I assumed that is the position you were coming from. I share your concerns about Israeli policy, I think everyone here does, but your one state solution I don't think will bring about a better quality of life for the common people, in fact I soemwhat suspect it will return to the chaos of the 1920 Palestine riots, or worse.


that is not necessary.

the 1920 riots were inspired by increased immigration of Zionists who actively worked towards an independent Jewish state....and armed themselves. so destroying the jewish state and creating a new one this would not be an issue.



Which secret police exactly? I don't know anything about that, all I'll say is there is a line between state security, and personal freedom. There are many groups which cross that line but not always fascist per se. ie kgb, cia.

No..thats right. It depends on the context and purpose. All arguments I mentioned are working in concert and are not to be taken alone. If taken alone they do not equate fascism...if taken together they provide 7 core tennants of fascism...



Aaaand you've just done exactly what you're criticisng Israel for.. If you can say Israel is Fascist why can't Israel say you are fascist?


well...because I do not conform with any of the core tennants of fascism nor do I agree with them....israel conforms to 7 of the ten which more or less warrants a comparison...



Nobodies really debating that I don't think, me personally I'm just saying that doesn't logically extend to Israel being Fascist.


well...it was the main argument proposed in the counter arguments....




Glad to hear it. But really do we need to destroy Israel? As I said before the State of Israel, horrific as it is, may actually be holding back a far more violent and sustained civil war. What we need is progression, looking forward not back.

The state of Israel and its racist institutions/laws will not solve any problems. Destroying these institutions and creating a secular state will actually solve the problems,

Allowing Israel to coexist next to a seperate Palestinian state legitimises the fact that several hundred thousand people were expelled from Israel in the first place and had their property seazed and were refused to allow to retun to their homes and property.

Within the current context of the Israeli state and its institutions any solution to that is impossible if it does not allow for the return of these poeple and give them unrefutable equal status. That is not going to happen when the current state of Israel still exists...not is giving the Palestinians...who made up 70% of the nation in 1948 less than 505 of the territory of unequal land (in the sense of aerability and which is also devided geographically...)

To clarify:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CswEfc9aGOU/TQdZf-9AszI/AAAAAAAAS9I/OJlwoZ9Cm74/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg

[Viet Minh]

I had a huge long answer for you but went and clicked something and lost it all :cursing: I can't be assed re-writing it, maybe later! ;)

[PhoenixAsh]

I had a huge long answer for you but went and clicked something and lost it all :cursing: I can't be assed re-writing it, maybe later! ;)

o crap...I hate when that happens

[PhoenixAsh]

So I have argued that the state of Israel is well on its way to becomming a fascist state...and can even be considered to be one already depending on the position you take on fascism.

Now...this position has been attacked and comparison to fascism and Israel has been argued against...as unfounded and counter productive especially when comparing it to German Fascism.

Now I was reading through the archives of haaretz today and came across an interesting article.

I found this article in Haaretz. (http://www.haaretz.com/culture/will-israel-turn-into-the-fascist-state-of-judea-by-2022-1.303585)

Now...this article does not entirely agree with my position. I personally think, as stated, that Israel is already well on its way to become fascist and can even now be considered a fascist state in nature. The article takes a different position.

However...and that is the point that this article does make...the article clearly shows the comparison to Israel and fascism is not so far fetched, in fact very valid and even discussed within Israel.

A few quotes:


retired judge and Yediot Ahronot Legal Affairs Editor Boaz Okon wrote in a chilling op-ed piece: "These dots are growing evidence of the lack of spirit of freedom and the emergence of apartheid and fascism."


But it's already happening right now, bit by bit: the loyalty oath law, the religious conversion law, the ban on commemorating the naqba, the ban on demonstrating at the homes of high-ranking army officers... When you break down the basic building blocks of democracy, fascism will fill that void."


"I would use different colors, but this is basically what I believe," wrote one commenter.

Now interestingly enough...the artist specifically used a red and white flag and black coloured symbol to designate his artistical representation of Israeli Fascism....as you look at the photographs in the article you can see the striking similarity to another flag....one which was also red, white and had a black symbol.

But the article goes further than that. The arguments given...also in the co-op piece mentioned...are by and large exactly the same arguments I used to validate the comparison.

So...basically...a comparison is valid. Its being made by Israeli jews within Israel discussed in mainstream media and on social network sites and is by many considered to be a real valid fear and a very possible development.

Now obviously the article in essence refutes, but does not negate, my position that Israel is already there...it does however validate the arguments made.