UKIP - are they now a real threat?

[ComradeG1967]

UKIP's rhetoric is admittedly not nearly as offensive as the BNP's, but in my experience they are a crypto-Fascist outfit. Here are some of their policies:


15 Culture & Restoring Britishness

· End support for multiculturalism and promote one shared British culture for all
· Be fair to England by introducing an ‘English Parliament’, ending the discriminatory Barnett Formula and making St George’s Day a national holiday in England
· Ban the burka and veiled niqab in public buildings and certain private buildings
· Require UK schools to teach Britain’s contribution to the world and celebrate cultures, languages and traditions from around the British Isles
· Scrap political correctness in public affairs

What do they mean by scrapping political correctness? :confused:


9 Welfare & Social Security

· Reform the ridiculously complicated welfare system (currently more than 70 different benefits)
· Help families by rolling childcare benefits and credits into one enhanced benefit
· Allow part-time workers to continue claiming ‘Basic Cash Benefit’ until their wages reach £11,500
· Introduce council-run ‘Workfare’ projects to improve local communities
· Ensure UK benefits are only available to those who have lived here for at least five years


3 Immigration & Asylum

· End uncontrolled mass immigration
· Introduce an immediate five-year freeze on immigration for permanent settlement
· Regain control of Britain’s borders to stop foreign criminals from entering our country
· End abuse of the UK asylum system and expel Islamic extremists
· Introduce a strict new points-based visa system and time-limited work permits
· Triple the number of UK Borders Agency staff engaged in controlling immigration (to 30,000)


The also will introduce a '31% flat tax' benfitting the rich, the reintroduction of grammar schools and the 'right to binding local and national referenda on major issues' won't take to long to see the return of capital punishment, in the wake of a media furore surrounding some heinous crime...plus the banning of minarets, etc, etc a la Switzerland. In fact the Daily Mail will have a field day with petitions for referenda on all sorts of issues. Sounds great... :rolleyes:

You can view it here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KJRWx0Lo8MgJ:www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1567-ukip-manifesto+ukip's+policies+%22ban+the%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk). It's a Google cache as their manifesto's being revised.

I'm not complacent, the BNP is still enemy number one.

But with the BNP in free fall at the moment - facing a winding up order, and having lost thousands of members, UKIP is beginning to concern me.

For one thing, finishing SECOND in the EU elections was expected, and even welcome given that they took so much support of the BNP, but finishing second in BARNSLEY, a working class Labour stronghold is scary.

Just my two cents. :)

[farleft]

A very distant second (2953 votes).

I think the concern is that is the UK gets the AV voting system will UKIP pick up second preference from the conservatives? I expect UKIP to make big electoral gains under AV (though not much gains in terms of membership).

[ZeroNowhere]

I'm not complacent, the BNP is still enemy number one.I don't know, I hear that the Conservatives are pretty bad; indeed, some even say that they are far more powerful than the BNP.

[IndependentCitizen]

The EDL members seem to love UKIP. They're a civic nationalist party, and they do need a close eye watching them. I don't seem them as a street-level threat, that's the BNP since they wanna become more militant. UKIP is an interesting topic though, and they will gain electoral support amongst more right-wing conservatives if AV becomes the new electora system.

[Hit The North]

If anything, UKIP are only a threat to the Tory vote.

[Hit The North]

I don't know, I hear that the Conservatives are pretty bad; indeed, some even say that they are far more powerful than the BNP.

Indubitably.

Anyone who considers the BNP to be enemy number one resides in an anti-fascist political ghetto and hasn't been paying attention to the wider world.

[Vanguard1917]

Indubitably.

Anyone who considers the BNP to be enemy number one resides in an anti-fascist political ghetto and hasn't been paying attention to the wider world.

Yep. Neither the BNP nor UKIP ever oversaw hundreds of thousands being put out of work, deported masses of immigrants or sent riot police to 'kettle' demonstrators.

Our main enemies are already in power, and were in power this time last year.

[hatzel]

What do they mean by scrapping political correctness? :confused:

Depending on how we define 'political correctness', you could point out that we ourselves are, in fact, politically incorrect. Maybe we should throw our weight behind UKIP, then...:laugh:

Seriously, they don't have any real significance and I can't see them getting much. They'll only get any significant support (as they have) for the EU parliament, with the anti-EU vote. I don't think most of those people who voted for them in the European Parliament elections to show their disdain for the EU would actually vote for them in a domestic election, where there are other matters to take into consideration, rather than just the opinion of the EU. They'll vote the Tories in for that :)

[Sam_b]

UKIP is not a fascist organisation.

[Futility Personified]

The UKIP isn't much of a threat at all. Just a tory party +1 really. Although they have a fascist cultural tendancy, they really don't resonate well with the working class in the same way that ELD and BNP do (or did?)

[Sam_b]

Although they have a fascist cultural tendancy

Explanation or source?

[Futility Personified]

"End support for multiculturalism and promote one shared British culture for all". Sounds fairly fascist to me

[hatzel]

"End support for multiculturalism and promote one shared British culture for all". Sounds fairly nationalist to me

Fixed :)

[ZeroNowhere]

"End support for multiculturalism and promote one shared British culture for all". Sounds fairly fascist to me
Multiculturalism has failed? We should stop supporting it? That sounds strangely familiar. Fascists: they're everywhere.

[Nolan]

"End support for multiculturalism and promote one shared British culture for all". Sounds fairly fascist to me

http://rinth89.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/businessman-banging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

[Dimentio]

UKIP is a much bigger threat.

About 48% of the population would be ready to vote on a party like that. Especially if the current government fails.

But they are not only a threat to the immigrants and the leftists.

They are a threat to the United Kingdom itself. An English parliament would basically mean English chauvinism, and English chauvinism would mean alienation of the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots, which would opt for increased powers to their own regions, something which a UKIP government would be unable and unwilling to provide.

Effectively meaning a repeat of the break-up process of Yugoslavia.


UKIP's rhetoric is admittedly not nearly as offensive as the BNP's, but in my experience they are a crypto-Fascist outfit. Here are some of their policies:



What do they mean by scrapping political correctness? :confused:






The also will introduce a '31% flat tax' benfitting the rich, the reintroduction of grammar schools and the 'right to binding local and national referenda on major issues' won't take to long to see the return of capital punishment, in the wake of a media furore surrounding some heinous crime...plus the banning of minarets, etc, etc a la Switzerland. In fact the Daily Mail will have a field day with petitions for referenda on all sorts of issues. Sounds great... :rolleyes:

You can view it here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KJRWx0Lo8MgJ:www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1567-ukip-manifesto+ukip%27s+policies+%22ban+the%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk). It's a Google cache as their manifesto's being revised.

I'm not complacent, the BNP is still enemy number one.

But with the BNP in free fall at the moment - facing a winding up order, and having lost thousands of members, UKIP is beginning to concern me.

For one thing, finishing SECOND in the EU elections was expected, and even welcome given that they took so much support of the BNP, but finishing second in BARNSLEY, a working class Labour stronghold is scary.

Just my two cents. :)

[farleft]

I read an article on the BBC and Nigel Farage reckons with the demise of the Lib Dems UKIP will become the 3rd party in British politics.

Hopefully it will be the Green Party, at least they have an MP.

[Malatesta]

UKIP are the anti-immigration party it is okay to like. They do not have the racist baggage that the BNP have. The EDL have announced they are considering becoming a political party which will mean diluting the anti-immigration/Islam vote.
The BNP is knackered: possible new leadership challenge, declining and dissatisfied membership, terrible media image, and massive financial concerns. It goes on.
The Butler faction and British Fluffy Fascists are still in a very weak position.
The NF was recently taken over by Eddy Morrison, a very dodgy proposition, and there was a worry in the BNP that the NF would stand against them in elections. However, NF have no money. What is weird though is that, as the BNP collapses and UKIP and NF could well absorb some of their votes Morrison has just declared himself a national socialist which is a total vote loser. Why?
The EDL becoming a political party will further fragment the anti-immigration/Islam vote. It will also mean that the focus will move away from the demos, become less glamorous to the hooligans, require a lot of legwork which is tedious, and become 1 more tiny party with very few votes which is good news for antifascists. Even if they did get in to a local council they would be like the BNP who lacked any political understanding and gave up after 1 term. The EDL are, like the BNP, a single issue party. And who would they have as representatives? Richard Price as minister for children? Stephen Fucksley-Trousers as drugs tsar? Jeff Marsh as defence minister (knives only). They would be a protest vote, like UKIP, but with a much worse media image. We shall see…

[Dr Mindbender]

UKIP is not fascist, its talk of British culture (whatever that is) is subjective to say the least... they aren't the ones calling for 0% immigration and enforced/'encouraged' repatriation based on ethnicity like the BNP. Nor does it share the BNP's shady history, blood n' soil nationalism or thinly veiled attempts to appease the working class vote. They are unashamedly a toff's party. At worst, they are right wing tories.

[Dimentio]

UKIP is not fascist, its talk of British culture (whatever that is) is subjective to say the least... they aren't the ones calling for 0% immigration and enforced/'encouraged' repatriation based on ethnicity like the BNP. Nor does it share the BNP's shady history, blood n' soil nationalism or thinly veiled attempts to appease the working class vote. They are unashamedly a toff's party. At worst, they are right wing tories.

That is why they could win political support.

[farleft]

Are the EDL not connected with the English Democrats party?

[gorillafuck]

I consider the British government to be a far greater threat than the BNP or UKIP combined. Fascists are not going to take over Britain now or any time soon at all. But the British government is already in power, the British ruling class is making all the attacks on workers that the UKIP could dream of. And it's engaged in imperialist wars abroad, making massive cuts, and deporting immigrants. And all some people can think about is UK nationalists like the UKIP or a dumb crypto-fascist party like the BNP.

Forget all this antifa crap.

[Mather]

Are the EDL not connected with the English Democrats party?

No. There may be some ex-English Democrats in the EDL, but the two are not connected.

[Malatesta]

[QUOTE=Zeekloid;2040843]I consider the British government to be a far greater threat than the BNP or UKIP combined. Fascists are not going to take over Britain now or any time soon at all. But the British government is already in power, the British ruling class is making all the attacks on workers that the UKIP could dream of. And it's engaged in imperialist wars abroad, making massive cuts, and deporting immigrants. And all some people can think about is UK nationalists like the UKIP or a dumb crypto-fascist party like the BNP.

QUOTE]

yes of course the govt are a massive threat but the antifascist struggle still goes on. most antifascists are also involved in anti-cuts struggle as well. the problem is not whether 'fascists' take over but the fact that the EDL are marching through our town and cities and annoying folk. to quote the dude, this cannot stand, man!
ukip, bnp, edp, etc are all single issue/protest votes and if the EDL go the legit political route then good. they will be too tied up with that to do their irritating demos and then, like most of these parties, wither and die. they dont have the nouse or political stamina to supercede the bnp or ukip. we hope!
'Forget all this antifa crap.' i thought this as an antifascist thread?

[pastradamus]

UKIP is not a fascist organisation.

Im afraid I disagree. Their policies contain extreme anti-worker sentiments, racist beliefs, nationalism and many of its members are anti-abortion.

This is a party which wants to destroy the Nationalised NHS system and replace it with privately-run clinics and hospitals motivated by profit and not by standards and principles.

It wants to destroy multiculturalism in Britain by promoting a brain-washing system of "british culture for all" through education channels and they keep spouting off about how immigration is "destroying" job oppurtunities for British citizens.

This is the BNP with better window-dressing.

[gorillafuck]

Their policies contain extreme anti-worker sentiments, racist beliefs, nationalism and many of its members are anti-abortion.Sounds like the conservative party.

[pastradamus]

Sounds like the conservative party.

Yeah, thats just it. Whatever about the likes of the UKIP or the BNP we must still recognise that the conservative party is still the largest enemy of the working class in the Uk today.

[Dr Mindbender]

Yeah, thats just it. Whatever about the likes of the UKIP or the BNP we must still recognise that the conservative party is still the largest enemy of the working class in the Uk today.

The conservative party is merely the puppet of the bourgeoisie pockets that support them.

[pastradamus]

The conservative party is merely the puppet of the bourgeoisie pockets that support them.

True enough but it is a council of the bourgeois that stands as a direct enemy to the working class and makes political decisions which directly attack their (the workers) wellbeing.

[Tim Finnegan]

If anything, UKIP are only a threat to the Tory vote.

The UKIP isn't much of a threat at all. Just a tory party +1 really.
I agree. UKIP are just hard-line Tory dissidents, not fascists. If they pose a threat, it is simply in that they give a voice to hardline reactionaries without fear of the party whip, and so drag the mainstream discourse to the right.


An English parliament would basically mean English chauvinism, and English chauvinism would mean alienation of the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots
You say that as if it would be a novelty.


I consider the British government to be a far greater threat than the BNP or UKIP combined. Fascists are not going to take over Britain now or any time soon at all. But the British government is already in power, the British ruling class is making all the attacks on workers that the UKIP could dream of. And it's engaged in imperialist wars abroad, making massive cuts, and deporting immigrants. And all some people can think about is UK nationalists like the UKIP or a dumb crypto-fascist party like the BNP.

Forget all this antifa crap.
I don't know if it's as simple as that. One of the staples of mainstream and imperialist racist rhetoric in Britain is the myth of a "white working class" alienated by multiculturalism and threatened by "Islamic extremism", evidenced, it is claimed, by the existence of far-right populist and Islamophobic parties like UKIP and the BNP. (It isn't admitted, of course, that both parties have a largely middle class base, because that would spoil things.) Actively opposing the far-right is necessary to drag the mainstream political discourse away from the right, something which is desperately in need of doing- it was observed, for example, that when Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time, the representative of even the nominally centre-left parties managed to simultaneously condemn him while accepting his basic premise that multiculturalism and immigration are both Bad Things. Now, granted, it can only be one plank in a far broader platform, but that is true of any single plank, from immigration to war to service cuts.

[Hit The North]

About 48% of the population would be ready to vote on a party like that.

Yes, and 87.5% of statistics are made-up on the spot :rolleyes:

[GallowsBird]

They are a threat to the United Kingdom itself. An English parliament would basically mean English chauvinism, and English chauvinism would mean alienation of the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots, which would opt for increased powers to their own regions, something which a UKIP government would be unable and unwilling to provide.

I disagreed with that view when a Tory (I forget which) aired it and I still disagree with it. I can't see how the English having their own parliament or an assembly as every other country in the UK bar Cornwall (which was never joined to England or UK in an official act of union) has will mean the disempowerment of Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland whereas the population of England being represented solely by the British Empire's ...er United Kingdom's.. parliament on all matters is clearly an injustice to the common people of England and of course helps fascist, nationalist, anti-Scottish and Nazi parties flourish by proclaiming the inability of the centre and left (as many leftists seem to disagree with any English regional or national liberation) to treat the English worker fairly. It is the reason that many English workers are now falling for Nationalist-scum propaganda (that and the insistence of the media to blame the Polish migrant workers for all the ills of society).

The fact England has by far the biggest population of the British Isles and yet have less representation than the other countries is just another fault of the British capitalist system. I think that the individual "nations" of the UK should have more autonomy at this present time as they were mostly unified against the will of the people and not on equal terms. There should be safeguards put down to stop interference from the individual regions from interfering with others.

[Tim Finnegan]

The real problem with an English parliament is that it would be redundant, nothing more a double of the British parliament with a few seats trimmed, the equivalent of a second US congress without California; dead weight, in short. If you're going to argue for English devolution- a perfectly legitimate cause- you should argue for regional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_england) parliaments, which would be the practical rather than merely ideological equivalent of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish bodies.

[GallowsBird]

The real problem with an English parliament is that it would be redundant, nothing more a double of the British parliament with a few seats trimmed, the equivalent of a second US congress without California; dead weight, in short.

Yes, but it may help the Uk collapse and I am Anti-Unionist.



If you're going to argue for English devolution- a perfectly legitimate cause- you should argue for regional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_england) parliaments, which would be the practical rather than merely ideological equivalent of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish bodies.

No, no I agree. I should have said "parliaments" as I want regional parliaments (the Northumbrian one especially as I am biased). So yes I agree.

[El Chuncho]

I have campaign for regional parliaments for years now. It makes sense, because the parliament in London doesn't represent the interests of regional communities like local parliaments will. The whole government structure needs a re-haul, anyway.

[YorkshireAntifa]

I'd say the BNP is still the number one threat to the U.K. right now. The UKIP, as "farleft" said, is a distant second.

[RedAntifa]

I'd say the BNP is still the number one threat to the U.K. right now. The UKIP, as "farleft" said, is a distant second.

In my limited experience I'd say the National Front are definitely on the rise, and the BNP are decreasing in support rapidly. Certainly in the upcoming Scottish elections, there are far more NF candidates standing than BNP. It was a bit of a shock seeing the headline in my local newspaper that the NF were running, then going on to read about their policies and what these candidates stood for. Scary stuff, and I get the feeling that some of the loons around these parts may vote for them...

[IndependentCitizen]

The north-west infidels (a splinter group of the EDL) have taken a lot of physical aspects of the National Front, and actually openly promotes them. The EDL could possibly breakdown, and a new-era NF style group has taken shape. The NF may leach onto this movement and make some ground on it.

The BNP is falling apart, which is a good thing for us. But other groups are going to benefit from their failing, mainly the NF and the North west infidels.

[YorkshireAntifa]

In my limited experience I'd say the National Front are definitely on the rise, and the BNP are decreasing in support rapidly. Certainly in the upcoming Scottish elections, there are far more NF candidates standing than BNP. It was a bit of a shock seeing the headline in my local newspaper that the NF were running, then going on to read about their policies and what these candidates stood for. Scary stuff, and I get the feeling that some of the loons around these parts may vote for them...

I thought the NF was basically the BNP nowadays?

[Tim Finnegan]

I thought the NF was basically the BNP nowadays?
The BNP pretty much took over the NF's position as the leading fascist party, but their tendency to shy away from street thuggery and to avoid overtly fascist rhetoric left the NF with a niche on the ultra-right. Unfortunately, as British politics shifts to the right, NF shift closer to the new centre, allowing them to expand their niche as the BNP had been doing, and all the more so as the BNP begins to collapse in on itself.