Anti-Holocaust Denial: A Revleft Resources project

[Invader Zim]

As I am sure most of you are aware, there is an excellent thread in anti-fascism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/holocaust-proof-t128842/index.html) which compiles sources and evidence of the holocaust. Reading through that thread it struck me that it might be useful to expand on the ideas encompassed by that thread. My initial thoughts were a thread where we identify and discuss holocaust denial, with an eventual summary list of key arguments, which could be used as an educational tool for members, regardless of their familiarity with the topic. But then i considered that maybe we could actually produce a far larger resource covering lots of different issues surrounding holocaust denial, and the holocaust more generally.



Anyway, to get the ball rolling here are a few potential ideas for topics, essays, discussions, etc, that people could submit/engage in.

1. Introduction - Provides an introductory narrative of the holocaust, they key theories, debates and texts which make up modern understanding of the holocaust.
2. Introduction to Holocaust Denial - Identifies, analyses and explains precisely what holocaust denial is, in all of its various mutations.
3. Holocaust Denial Arguments - Key holocaust denial arguments and their rebuttal.
4. The History of Holocaust Denial
5. Current Denial groups – A list of major holocaust denial groups, and an examination of their beliefs and arguments, and what the liars are up to.
6. Evidence of the Holocaust – Similar to the thread in anti-fascism.
7. Source List – a list of key texts and resources, both online and otherwise.

This is of course a bit of blue sky thinking, and I haven't really given a lot of consideration to how such a project could be organised, what kind of scope we could achieve on a message board or even whether a reasonable resource can be created using this medium. So if you think this is silly idea please do say. But by the same token if you think its a silly idea, but could be made into a good and workable one, or have any suggestions at all please comment freely.

[Hoplite]

Why expend energy trying to drown a fish?

[Invader Zim]

Why expend energy trying to drown a fish?
Well I guess that is a reasonable question, but I guess I still believe in the merits of education. That people can and will be convinced when provided sufficient evidence. I also think that even those who actively oppose and counter these kinds of fascist arguments find resources worthwhile for study and their own efforts in informing people.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Well I guess that is a reasonable question, but I guess I still believe in the merits of education. That people can and will be convinced when provided sufficient evidence. I also think that even those who actively oppose and counter these kinds of fascist arguments find resources worthwhile for study and their own efforts in informing people.

Zim, if there actually are folks out there dumb enough to sincerely believe that the Nazi genocide is just a bunch of lies concocted by the Jews, there's little chance that they are going to be convinced by any amount of evidence.

[Tablo]

If people are hit with proper evidence before they are even introduced to holocaust denial then they will more likely reject holocaust denial.

[Hoplite]

Well I guess that is a reasonable question, but I guess I still believe in the merits of education. That people can and will be convinced when provided sufficient evidence. I also think that even those who actively oppose and counter these kinds of fascist arguments find resources worthwhile for study and their own efforts in informing people.
I have to agree with Marxist Bro on this one. As sad as it is, there are some people that WILL NOT hear you unless you agree with them. The kind of people that subscribe to this kind of idea are not people who pride themselves on intellectual honesty.

You can try, and I wish you all the best, but I wouldnt bet any money that you'll change any hearts and minds. Holocaust deniers are just not the most open-minded people in the world.

[Invader Zim]

Zim, if there actually are folks out there dumb enough to sincerely believe that the Nazi genocide is just a bunch of lies concocted by the Jews, there's little chance that they are going to be convinced by any amount of evidence.

Well the aim is not to try to necessarily convert 'true believers' from their folly, as you suggest such an effort is likely to be wasted. But then again the effort should still be undertaken, after all why bother having any kind of anti-fascist educational resource? Rather the idea is to provide an education resource for our members to use when confronted with holocaust-denial, their own learning and of course to provide for those individuals initially flirting with the nonsense.

[Nolan]

I think when a lot people read this sort of thing on a communist website it might backfire and make them more vulnerable to the old nazi charge that the Holocaust is a jewish-communist propaganda work. Leftists that come to this forum to connect with like-minded people are never Holocaust deniers of any degree anyway.

Also there are far better sources on the internet. This would probably be of a far lower quality.

I guess if anything this project might actually serve to make, say, teabaggers more prone to Holocaust denial. Since commies believe it it must be worth questioning no matter what the liberal media says.

[Red_Struggle]

I'm not an expert on the topic of holocaust denial, but what I find somewhat humorous is that neo-nazis can't even agree on their own conspiracy theories. I've seen people who advocate the real death toll, like some even get tattoos that actually say "6 million more" (sick), and some will say something like "well, it was more like 60,000 and there weren't even that many Jews in Europe at that time."

Interestingly enough, the source for this downplaying of the number of deaths is "Did 6 million really die" by German Neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, whose book contradicts The Nazi Party's own records. Not to mention the same guy wrote another book promoting esoteric nazism, basically saying that Hitler was involved with UFOs in the Arctic Circle or something like that. He later admitted it to be a farce to get people's attention.

[bailey_187]

the point of being able to argue about holocaust denial isnt to try and change the mind of an actual Nazi, but to inform those who may be also reading/listening to your argument

i think this is a good idea, and i hope this gets done. I know nothing so i cant really help :(

[PhoenixAsh]

I think it is a nice idea...but I have to ask: what do you consider Holocaust denial?

[Hoplite]

the point of being able to argue about holocaust denial isnt to try and change the mind of an actual Nazi, but to inform those who may be also reading/listening to your argument
A fair point, but I would think that most people who already think that way are not going to listen to argument in the other direction and most other people are going to agree with you anyways.

[PhoenixAsh]

A fair point, but I would think that most people who already think that way are not going to listen to argument in the other direction and most other people are going to agree with you anyways.

well...yes and no...there is a large group of poeple who have grown up several generations after the event. And eventhough everybody knows about the holocaust...actual knwoledge is very little in the avarage person.

I have seen websites which do not refute the persecution of jews but the destructon on a planned and executed way by offering "scientific" arguments that do not negate jewish deaths but slyly attacks some points of it and taking that as evidence....not by debunking but by sowing doubt and raising questions.

As I have family members who have suffered the concentration camps and have been brought up with grandparents who both were long time communists and actively involved in the struggle against fascism and nazism it has been a large part of my upbringing...and interest. so I knew alot about it.

...yet when I first encountered the website which was extremely professionally done and looked completely legit and unsuspectingly read the articles and research which conformed with modern day standards of scientific reporting. Now because I was not aware it was revisionism with the intend of denial and because this was not obvious on first sight read casually through it and found myself actually in some doubt that there perhaps were some factors which did not add up.

This lasted exactly 5 minutes before I saw in one of the articles notes the name: Irving.

Now...I have a lot of knowledge about the Holocaust. And I am by nature sceptical and naturally I knew exactly who Irving was...but had I not known... the website was so constructed and so convincingly dressed that even though all of this knowledge there was some moment in which though...ok...so perhaps there is some validity to further research into the matter.

Had I not known who Irving was I may have very well have accepted the claims as legitimate critical side notes to he Holocaust.

In my defense...I knew who Irving was but had very little experience with the arguments and tactics used by holocaust deniers and revisionists since their works are forbidden in Holland. And since I was at that time a history student and legitimate revisionism on several issues including the holocaust (especially the role of the Dutch during and after the war), communism and the politional actions in Indonesia also being attacked at that time and we had a platform of open debate and opposed restrictive legislation...so I somehwat mistook the website on first glance as a legitimate work based on scientific research.

But yeah...they had me fooled for a minute there...if this can happen to a person with a lot of knowledge and first hand annecdotes...what could happen to people who have little knowledge?

I think it is very important to both inform and collect evidence and arguments used by illigitimate revisionists and deniers and counter argue these based on debunking their falsifications and exposing their tactics.

The website does not exist anymore...unfortunately...and it was largely based on falsifications and misrepresentations of scientific evidence and resorted to such obscure and complicated chemical analysis of soil and tree life and abstracted arguments from that...which was quickly exposed after I saw the name Irving and did some more research in what they were actually saying and proving, or rather what they were not proving, with all their chemical formula's and calculations.

[Hoplite]

well...yes and no...there is a large group of poeple who have grown up several generations after the event. And eventhough everybody knows about the holocaust...actual knwoledge is very little in the avarage person.

I have seen websites which do not refute the persecution of jews but the destructon on a planned and executed way by offering "scientific" arguments that do not negate jewish deaths but slyly attacks some points of it and taking that as evidence....not by debunking but by sowing doubt and raising questions.

As I have family members who have suffered the concentration camps and have been brought up with grandparents who both were long time communists and actively involved in the struggle against fascism and nazism it has been a large part of my upbringing...and interest. so I knew alot about it.

...yet when I first encountered the website which was extremely professionally done and looked completely legit and unsuspectingly read the articles and research which conformed with modern day standards of scientific reporting. Now because I was not aware it was revisionism with the intend of denial and because this was not obvious on first sight read casually through it and found myself actually in some doubt that there perhaps were some factors which did not add up.

This lasted exactly 5 minutes before I saw in one of the articles notes the name: Irving.

Now...I have a lot of knowledge about the Holocaust. And I am by nature sceptical and naturally I knew exactly who Irving was...but had I not known... the website was so constructed and so convincingly dressed that even though all of this knowledge there was some moment in which though...ok...so perhaps there is some validity to further research into the matter.

Had I not known who Irving was I may have very well have accepted the claims as legitimate critical side notes to he Holocaust.

In my defense...I knew who Irving was but had very little experience with the arguments and tactics used by holocaust deniers and revisionists since their works are forbidden in Holland. And since I was at that time a history student and legitimate revisionism on several issues including the holocaust (especially the role of the Dutch during and after the war), communism and the politional actions in Indonesia also being attacked at that time and we had a platform of open debate and opposed restrictive legislation...so I somehwat mistook the website on first glance as a legitimate work based on scientific research.

But yeah...they had me fooled for a minute there...if this can happen to a person with a lot of knowledge and first hand annecdotes...what could happen to people who have little knowledge?

I think it is very important to both inform and collect evidence and arguments used by illigitimate revisionists and deniers and counter argue these based on debunking their falsifications and exposing their tactics.

The website does not exist anymore...unfortunately...and it was largely based on falsifications and misrepresentations of scientific evidence and resorted to such obscure and complicated chemical analysis of soil and tree life and abstracted arguments from that...which was quickly exposed after I saw the name Irving and did some more research in what they were actually saying and proving, or rather what they were not proving, with all their chemical formula's and calculations.
Then it would seem that better education on the subject is necessary, not wasting energy fighting Holocaust deniers. I agree that education can come out of that kind of exchange, but it's likely to come at a high cost. I would think your time would be better spent educating others directly about the Holocaust.

[PhoenixAsh]

Then it would seem that better education on the subject is necessary, not wasting energy fighting Holocaust deniers. I agree that education can come out of that kind of exchange, but it's likely to come at a high cost. I would think your time would be better spent educating others directly about the Holocaust.


Fair enough...but I think it is also important to offer within that education some examples of what is acceptable historic revisionism...ie...based on actual historic evicence and the right interpretation of that evidence....and illigitimate revisionism....which serves a political agenda.

[pastradamus]

As I am sure most of you are aware, there is an excellent thread in anti-fascism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/holocaust-proof-t128842/index.html) which compiles sources and evidence of the holocaust.

Not to undermine your post Zim, or indeed those of other comrades here, but, the act of denying that the holocaust ever occured is so idiotic that to even entertain a debate on it is to succumb to such idiocy.