Please watch this and tell me how I can fight this.. [Archive]

MarxistMan

4th March 2011, 20:33

Game Girl

4th March 2011, 21:28

I feel sad for those that allow themselves to hate like this. I sometimes worry about humanity.

Hoplite

4th March 2011, 21:37

I shot my drink out my nose at 4:10.

**Sigh** It's their right to be as stupid as they want to be in public, freedom of speech works both ways. We may seriously dislike it, but they have their rights.

R_P_A_S

4th March 2011, 21:59

I really want to take action... not violent.. wouldn't wanna sink to their level... nor give them a reason. What do u guys suggest...vwe cant have this ignorance

L.A.P.

4th March 2011, 22:02

This is the type of shit that honestly makes me want to shoot myself.

EDIT:

"One nation under God, not Allah"

I'm ready to pull the trigger now.

Revolutionair

4th March 2011, 22:02

I would just try to separate one and try to talk with him/her. If you stay calm and explain the situation from your point of view, you might win one of them over. You can't really do anything about them as a group though, they encourage each other to hate to a point where they just go on a frenzy. Don't let these people get to you.

Hoplite

4th March 2011, 22:05

I really want to take action... not violent.. wouldn't wanna sink to their level... nor give them a reason. What do u guys suggest...vwe cant have this ignorance
Sadly, there really isnt anything you CAN do.

Most of these people are so dug into their positions, intellectually, that almost nothing you do will dislodge them and most of what you can do would just reinforce their train of thought.

We just have focus on the fence-sitters and let people like this act like nuts and remember that this is not representative of the entire country or the human race.

Decolonize The Left

4th March 2011, 22:45

I need help guys. This is really bad and these people live amongst me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM&feature=player_embedded

That was one sad, sad, video, but it is the direct result of a huge political campaign to isolate and marginalize Muslims within the US. These types of displays should be expected and we should be prepared for more of the same.

You first need to realize that you are not going to change any of the protesters minds on your own, or through dialogue. So forget about 'explaining' things to them. They don't want to listen.

What you can do is stand up against discrimination when you witness it and let these people know that their hate speech won't be tolerated 'by a fellow American.' If you know of another rally like the one in the video, organize a counter-demonstration and get as many people as you can. From the looks of the video, we're talking about 20-40 people max in the beginning, and by the end they had trickled down to about 5-10. Those numbers are generous on my part, and even then it's not a large demonstration.

What you need to do is actively support the Muslim community. Contact local organizations and exercise the avenues of communication which are already open, and should this happen again you can counter-demonstrate with larger numbers. This would be the most effective way of dealing with this type of right-wing bigotry.

- August

Broletariat

4th March 2011, 23:00

It's their right to be as stupid as they want to be in public, freedom of speech works both ways. We may seriously dislike it, but they have their rights.

What is this word "right?" Are these things universal and inalienable? Why then do some people lack them? Rights are determined by the social agreement of society, they exist because society allows people to do certain things. If you want to allow people to harass minorities like this then fuck you.

Rafiq

4th March 2011, 23:14

Where are Anarchists when you need them....

¿Que?

4th March 2011, 23:25

I would try the LA ARA

http://antiracistaction.org/chapters

Hoplite

5th March 2011, 01:09

What is this word "right?" Are these things universal and inalienable? Why then do some people lack them? Rights are determined by the social agreement of society, they exist because society allows people to do certain things. If you want to allow people to harass minorities like this then fuck you.
I think we need the concept of rights around because it's a solid base for a set of ideas that we can all agree to as to how we treat each other. I mean what else do you call these kinds of social rules?

brigadista

5th March 2011, 01:35

I think we need the concept of rights around because it's a solid base for a set of ideas that we can all agree to as to how we treat each other. I mean what else do you call these kinds of social rules?

so are you saying the rights of these racists supercede the rights of the people they are abusing and attacking in the name of "free speech"?

Hoplite

5th March 2011, 02:15

so are you saying the rights of these racists supercede the rights of the people they are abusing and attacking in the name of "free speech"?
Rights are a two-way street; the people they're yelling at have the right to get their own group together and yell back.

Free speech is probably one of the best cards in the Socialist/Communist deck. It's the idea of free speech that got us through the McCarthy era and it's what protects us from people just shoving us aside.

Kuppo Shakur

5th March 2011, 02:17

**Sigh** It's their right to be as stupid as they want to be in public, freedom of speech works both ways. We may seriously dislike it, but they have their rights.
Liberal.:thumbdown:

jinx92

5th March 2011, 02:18

Hello my brothers, what I feel about the supporters of The Tea Party is pitty and compassion not hate. They are real mind-manipulated and brainwashed by the yellow TV news channels, and the yellow press. Specifically by the TV channel FOX into thinking that they are being nationalists by hating the muslims. They even say that they are christians, but real christianity is based on loving all humans and even turning the other cheek, and even on loving enemies.

The hatred against muslims and foreign people of USA is not real nationalism and independence of USA. True self-determination, independence of USA and true nationalism would be to kick the Zionist Israeli bankers out of the USA, the Israeli Lobby, and to nationalize all giant corporations under workers-control

In fact you can even let all mexican undocumented workers to work in the USA and that is still nationalism

So true nationalism, and true independence of the USA would be to support a Socialist Workers Party for the 2012 elections, and not The Republican Party, The Democrat Party or The Tea Party who are a lot more loyal to Israel, to the Zionist Power Configuration, to International Corporations, International Bankers, and not loyal to american poor people at all.

We need a socialist president, because socialism is the real patriotism. So what I feel for the supporters of the Tea Party is pitty because of how mind-controlled they are by FOX news channel.

.

QUOTE=Robocommie;2038892]I can't even express how angry this makes me.

Mao Said something similar to this:

"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better.... For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world. China's case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, "Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors." For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism. "

ExUnoDisceOmnes

5th March 2011, 02:25

Where's the red guard when you need it?

Stand Your Ground

5th March 2011, 03:04

Fucking Islamophobic scum. Look at the youtube ratings:

1620 Thumbs up
4385 Thumbs down

Broletariat

5th March 2011, 03:05

I think we need the concept of rights around because it's a solid base for a set of ideas that we can all agree to as to how we treat each other. I mean what else do you call these kinds of social rules?

So you DO agree people have the "right" to discriminate against minorities? That you actively promote this sort of behaviour by standing by idly? You think this behaviour shouldn't be restricted in anyway? That people should be allowed to scream threats at other people to the point where they are probably mentally damaged, I mean, did you see the children in that video? You think that sort of hatred has no effect on them? You would respect the "rights" of racists to scare these children?

Rights are a two-way street; the people they're yelling at have the right to get their own group together and yell back.

Free speech is probably one of the best cards in the Socialist/Communist deck. It's the idea of free speech that got us through the McCarthy era and it's what protects us from people just shoving us aside.

Did you not understand my first post at all?

Hoplite

5th March 2011, 04:04

So you DO agree people have the "right" to discriminate against minorities? Protesting is discrimination?

You think this behaviour shouldn't be restricted in anyway?
I feel there should be precautions taken to ensure it doesnt become violent and that no one is making active threats against the safety of the other side, other than that, no.

That people should be allowed to scream threats at other people to the point where they are probably mentally damaged, I mean, did you see the children in that video? You think that sort of hatred has no effect on them? You would respect the "rights" of racists to scare these children?
You're using the "think of the children" argument? As inappropriate as their behavior is, how is it worse than protests that we engage in? Should other people be allowed to stifle us because they feel uncomfortable with what they say?

For the record, I find their speech abhorrent and utterly inexcusable for a grown adult. However in this instance, I feel I must invoke Monsieur Arouet here, "I disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Why should we allow some to speak freely and deny that privilege to others, regardless of content?

Did you not understand my first post at all?
Apparently not, care to expand upon it?

Broletariat

5th March 2011, 04:13

Protesting is discrimination?

I'm sorry perhaps I'm posting in the wrong thread, I thought we were discussing this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM&feature=player_embedded

Maybe the mods need to move this from discrimination to Politics or something.

I feel there should be precautions taken to ensure it doesnt become violent and that no one is making active threats against the safety of the other side, other than that, no.

Let me guess, you think there should also be precautions taken to ensure that our little revolution doesn't become violent either? You think the bourgeoisie are just going to give up their power if we all get together and ask for it?

You're using the "think of the children" argument? As inappropriate as their behavior is, how is it worse than protests that we engage in? Should other people be allowed to stifle us because they feel uncomfortable with what they say?

I'm appealing to the common sense of, hey look these people are probably going to make those children feel incredibly uncomfortable with their own identity, maybe those assholes should lay off.

Are you honestly comparing leftists protests to Tea Party protests? Like, you do understand that the Tea Party and Socialists are on opposite ends of the political spectrum right?

No they shouldn't, but that's because we're right.

For the record, I find their speech abhorrent and utterly inexcusable for a grown adult. However in this instance, I feel I must invoke Monsieur Arouet here, "I disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Why should we allow some to speak freely and deny that privilege to others, regardless of content?

Because content is really fucking important, try and follow the slippery slope of "don't scream fire in a crowded theatre" to its logical conclusion.

We're fighting for the liberation of the global proletariat, they're fighting for the expulsion of a minority from their country, do you think the content here is unimportant?

Apparently not, care to expand upon it?

In my first post I was pointing out that "rights" are merely what the social arrangement allows to occur, and you're supporting a social arrangement that allows shit like that posted in the OP to happen.

Red Commissar

5th March 2011, 05:37

Fucking Islamophobic scum. Look at the youtube ratings:

1620 Thumbs up
4385 Thumbs down

Yeah, saw the same thing when the same video was posted in another thread here. It's a result of it being posted on a well-traveled site (Salon) and the fact that it's uploaded by CAIR, which Tea Baggers accuse of having a shadow agenda to implement Sharia (and the group they're protesting here is an orthodox Muslim group).

Problem is tea baggers and their sympathizers don't like being told they are racist and vile, and more over there is little sympathy for groups affected by this.

Like in Europe the fear mongering concerning the Islamification and implementation of Sharia has become a common thing that Tea Baggers cling on to and the opportunistic politicians that lead them. There's been a surge in many states introducing "anti-sharia" laws in their legislature to that end to throw them a bone.

There is a delicious contradiction here though, tea baggers suddenly taking a firm stance against one religion's perceived attempts at influencing government while they do precisely the same with their religion in abortion debates, social studies and science debates (America is a "Christian" country and evolution...), and a whole sort of laws to shove religion into peoples' lives.

Hoplite

5th March 2011, 06:21

No they shouldn't, but that's because we're right.
If that's your position, then I really cant continue this.

While I agree that our way of doing things is the best, being hypocritical while reaching for a more open society is an extremely poor way to do things.

I regret I cannot find common ground with someone who has the "Oppression sucks, except when we do it" mentality.

Robocommie

5th March 2011, 07:24

Fucking Islamophobic scum. Look at the youtube ratings:

1620 Thumbs up
4385 Thumbs down

Well, in it's defense, I actually put thumbs down myself because there's nothing on that video I enjoyed seeing.

Robocommie

5th March 2011, 07:32

If that's your position, then I really cant continue this.

While I agree that our way of doing things is the best, being hypocritical while reaching for a more open society is an extremely poor way to do things.

I regret I cannot find common ground with someone who has the "Oppression sucks, except when we do it" mentality.

You should realize that unrestricted freedom of speech is not generally something hardcore leftists get excited about. Hate speech in particular is one of those things that leftists generally feel need to be banned.

Your way of approaching it is more of a left-libertarian way, which is legitimate, but honestly I think you're overlooking that it's not hypocritical if you actually believe our side is right, and their side is wrong. It may sound simplistic, but really there is nothing simplistic about taking the principled stand that Muslim-Americans should be able to go about their daily lives without being verbally harassed and made to feel threatened and dehumanized.

Rights go both ways. Is it really fair to call it oppression to not let people assault the public dignity, or even public safety, of minority groups? That's not oppression, that's civic responsibility.

Hoplite

5th March 2011, 08:17

You should realize that unrestricted freedom of speech is not generally something hardcore leftists get excited about. Hate speech in particular is one of those things that leftists generally feel need to be banned. And to me, that borders on fascism. You arent trying to create an open society at that point, you are just part of a long line of people saying "MY way is right and you'll do it my way or else." That's the kind of mentality we are trying to combat.

Your way of approaching it is more of a left-libertarian way, which is legitimate I would hardly define myself as libertarian, even left libertarian. I'm not at all in favor of a small government with limited power and the desire to protect rights and have an open atmosphere is pretty widespread.

but honestly I think you're overlooking that it's not hypocritical if you actually believe our side is right, and their side is wrong. It may sound simplistic, but really there is nothing simplistic about taking the principled stand that Muslim-Americans should be able to go about their daily lives without being verbally harassed and made to feel threatened and dehumanized. I'm not faulting the BELIEF that your side is right and theirs is wrong, I'm sorry if it came out that way. But when you go out and say "I dont want you to speak because I disagree with what you're saying," that's incredibly dictatorial and for me it doesn't line up AT ALL with Socialist thought and jives only with the most extreme forms of Communism.

Rights go both ways. Is it really fair to call it oppression to not let people assault the public dignity, or even public safety, of minority groups? That's not oppression, that's civic responsibility.
If you are assaulting the public safety of minority groups, you've crossed the line into harassment and that should not be tolerated. But if you're assembling a group of people to protest against a fundraiser for something you disagree with, I dont see that as wrong. I find the individuals in the video to be petty, small minded, intolerant, un-educated or willfully ignorant, and incredibly racist idiots...but I feel they should have as much right to speak as anyone else.

If we start endorsing the "We dont like you so we dont want to allow you to speak" mentality, then I see us as doing the same thing as the forces we are actively working against. We are engaging in the exact same behavior that we decry in others and that kind of hypocrisy, at bare minimum, will drive people away from our cause.

Salyut

5th March 2011, 09:24

Where's the red guard when you need it?

Will some Maoist-Third Worldists do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwDpUcHU-9I)

BIG BROTHER

5th March 2011, 10:10

I just watched the video. Its so sick it made me want to throw up and my blood is boiling.

You should look into contacting any Chicano organizations around the Area, they are against Racism and would be happy to remind those people that their European ancestors were bigger terrorists and the ones that should have gone home.

brigadista

5th March 2011, 10:18

Rights are a two-way street; the people they're yelling at have the right to get their own group together and yell back.

Free speech is probably one of the best cards in the Socialist/Communist deck. It's the idea of free speech that got us through the McCarthy era and it's what protects us from people just shoving us aside.

do you really think that those being attacked have equal rights with these ignorant white abusers? sorry but i think you are naive and taking a liberal position here, this type of attack cannot be supported by a "free speech" argument ..."free speech" is only available for some not all in a capitalist racist state..you are supporting an illusion

BIG BROTHER

5th March 2011, 10:25

brigadista

5th March 2011, 12:23

I need help guys. This is really bad and these people live amongst me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM&feature=player_embedded

Good luck! I would join you if I was in the US - I know some nice americans so as a European I know that not all Americans are like the nutters in this video - in fact these nutters are every where -I wish you well and think its great that you want to standup against these people

kafkaesque

5th March 2011, 13:23

This is the creepy part of the tea-baggers. They're pretty conflicting in internel political idealism which could leave them into self-destructive and possibly demised as a movement. What keeps them united and spreading is there ultra-nationalism and xenophobia positions (which they attempt to keep cryptically, but it seeps through obviously).

Keep a good eye on them...

Game Girl

5th March 2011, 13:33

Theres a different between free speech and hate speech. Yes, Freedom of Speech is awesome. But you have people like the scum in that video abusing that right! There should be limitations to free speech, in order to protect those of different races/sexualities/etc.

Hiero

5th March 2011, 13:42

Interesting in the discrimination forum no one picked up on Marxistman's anti-semitism.

IndependentCitizen

5th March 2011, 15:14

Holy shit, I had heard there was a protest about an American Islamic charity, but I thought it was because they were helping the Arab refugees get aid on the Tunisian/Libyan border.

But the charity was trying to help the vulnerable in their country, and get this shit from these people? As much as I disapprove of nationalism, what the American Muslims were doing was a hell of a lot more patriotic than these morons.

EDIT:

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6007/morons.jpg

No women's equality?

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

Sam_b

5th March 2011, 16:11

The Muslim community is not and should not be seen as separate from the wider community on this question. I suggest getting organised, with a group of supporters, to try and rectify this.

Firstly I would propose you meet with Muslim community leaders about possibilities for action, before calling a public meeting of concerned citizens. From this action points should be taken about moving forward. Form an umbrella network - 'citizens united' or some sort of thing, and hold a rally for the community on a Saturday to attract attention to this cause. This network is useful when such events happen again: and a counter-demo can always be called if these so-called 'patriots' turn up at another event.

The idea of 'rights' and 'free speech', something often used as an excuse, is a disappointing one coming from an SPUSA member, and saying that nothing can be done. This is downright shameful and thankfully this wave is being fought against within the SPUSA, by some members who post on this board. I don't think freedom of speech should be extended to those who want to destroy the community, disenfranchise people, and deprive them of 'rights' themselves. I think the choice is clear here: not calling in some group which are isolated from the community to demonstrate, but a united front by the community to shut these demos down when they appear. I think community organising is at the forefront of this, rather than dismiss it as 'not part of the wider community'. Thats why we need the wider community here to show these people up.

That video was bad, but honestly, Hoplite's response is a complete disgrace.

Broletariat

5th March 2011, 17:38

The Fighting_Crusnik

5th March 2011, 18:47

I think at this point, things are only going to get worse... Tis a sad thing how many fall from logic and reason when rhetoric and fear from that rhetoric manifests itself. :(

Fulanito de Tal

5th March 2011, 19:05

Stand Your Ground

5th March 2011, 22:26

Well, in it's defense, I actually put thumbs down myself because there's nothing on that video I enjoyed seeing.
Same here.

Stand Your Ground

5th March 2011, 22:36

Interesting in the discrimination forum no one picked up on Marxistman's anti-semitism.
Where?

Koba1917

5th March 2011, 23:26

It's just the typical Right Wing Christian Fundie Ignorance showing. Just how they said "One nation under god, not Allah". They Miss the point where they share pretty much the same exact god and Allah is Arabic for "God".

L.A.P.

6th March 2011, 01:52

So you DO agree people have the "right" to discriminate against minorities? That you actively promote this sort of behaviour by standing by idly? You think this behaviour shouldn't be restricted in anyway? That people should be allowed to scream threats at other people to the point where they are probably mentally damaged, I mean, did you see the children in that video? You think that sort of hatred has no effect on them? You would respect the "rights" of racists to scare these children?

What are we supposed to do? Suppress them because we don't like their opinion? Let's say hypothetically in a socialist society that a protests like this happens, would you just suppress them due to being "enemies of the people"? This is exactly the type of mentality that leads hopeful revolutionary governments go on such tyrannical crazes like the Reign of Terror after the French Revolution.

Kuppo Shakur

6th March 2011, 02:01

What are we supposed to do? Suppress them because we don't like their opinion?
Not just because we don't like it, but because it is invalid.

Freedom of speech only means freedom to say things that are ignorant, deceptive, and/or offensive. I would not call that a "right".

Robocommie

6th March 2011, 02:12

I'm not faulting the BELIEF that your side is right and theirs is wrong, I'm sorry if it came out that way. But when you go out and say "I dont want you to speak because I disagree with what you're saying," that's incredibly dictatorial and for me it doesn't line up AT ALL with Socialist thought and jives only with the most extreme forms of Communism.

http://www.sfsignal.com/mt-static/images/darthVader.jpg

If only you knew the POWER of the dark side of the Left...

No but seriously, I don't really have any respect for this notion that we as a society should have to protect hate speech. A lot of modern democracies, even liberal, capitalist democracies, have accepted this idea and it hasn't made them totalitarian except from a very American libertarian (and really, I mean libertarian in the sense of civil libertarian, not laissez faire economics) perspective wherein the rights of the individual are sacrosanct.

Rights, you have to understand, are extremely fuzzy things in socialism. After all, the same liberal philosophy which exalts the inalienable right of unrestricted free speech also exalts the right to the ownership of private property.

In socialism, there comes a point where the needs or abstract "rights" of an individual comes into conflict with the needs or abstract rights of the community or social whole. I firmly believe that a balance needs to be struck between the two, but allowing bigots the unrestricted right to spew hate and racist libel is not striking a balance. It's dangerously naive idealism based on bourgeois political philosophy, and to be perfectly frank, I think it's only something that could come from a position of privilege.

progressive_lefty

6th March 2011, 02:24

'Islam is a religion of hate'. Bit of pot calling the kettle black?

Hoplite

6th March 2011, 07:33

do you really think that those being attacked have equal rights with these ignorant white abusers? sorry but i think you are naive and taking a liberal position here, this type of attack cannot be supported by a "free speech" argument ..."free speech" is only available for some not all in a capitalist racist state..you are supporting an illusion I agree that the current reality does not reflect an equal balance of power, but I dont see what that has to do with what we are trying to do. We agree the current reality does not work and are trying to change it.

Yea I agree. This so called rights are abstract and not based on reality. Philosophically speaking, no. But I fail to see what that has to do with it. Rights are a basic set of ideas that a society agrees to for a baseline treatment of individuals, that seems like it's a pretty advantageous thing to develop to ensure people in that society are clear on what the societal expectations are.

The truth is those people were using their "right" to promote racism and oppression of Muslims. I myself don't think they should have any right to do that because it will only lead to oppression.
I dont think people have a right to promote racism and oppression. While I find what they're doing in the video abhorrent, I dont see that it should be quashed for the simple fact that we dislike what they say.

The idea of 'rights' and 'free speech', something often used as an excuse, is a disappointing one coming from an SPUSA member, and saying that nothing can be done. This is downright shameful and thankfully this wave is being fought against within the SPUSA, by some members who post on this board. I dont feel anything can be done for the simple fact that individuals like that often will not hear opposing points of view, a confirmation bias is an ugly thing and the effort you invest in fighting against it is MUCH better spent elsewhere.

People like the ones in the video WILL be handled. Time will push them away from the majority, it WILL make them obsolete and ignored.

I don't think freedom of speech should be extended to those who want to destroy the community, disenfranchise people, and deprive them of 'rights' themselves. I disagree. I think we need to let EVERYONE speak. It's when those words become actions that we need to be careful. If the guy sitting next to me on the bus is a Neo-Nazi, whatever, it's no skin off my ass what his beliefs are. But if he tries to act on those beliefs by beating up someone else, THEN it becomes my business and he needs to be dealt with. Coming down on people because they have beliefs or desires that are counter to yours is one of the cornerstones of the fascist way of working and it's something I will not be a part of, I dont care what system it's under.

I think the choice is clear here: not calling in some group which are isolated from the community to demonstrate, but a united front by the community to shut these demos down when they appear. I think community organising is at the forefront of this, rather than dismiss it as 'not part of the wider community'. Thats why we need the wider community here to show these people up. That's a great idea, counter-protests are effective and they still allow both sides to speak.

That video was bad, but honestly, Hoplite's response is a complete disgrace.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I refuse to start advocating that we act like the very people we are fighting against. I dont care how many people ostensibly on my side feel I'm a disgrace.

No but seriously, I don't really have any respect for this notion that we as a society should have to protect hate speech. Why shouldn't we? What makes hate speech any different than any other kind of speech? If I'm allowed to express my opinion that the Capitalist system is oppressive, why shouldn't someone else be allowed to express their opinion about race, religion, or anything else? A healthy society is diverse and has a wide range of opinion, regardless of the flag thats flying.

My points come down to several basic ideas.

1. Free speech is the cornerstone of a free, open, and healthy society. Truly free speech means allowing points of view that we may vehemently disagree with alongside those we laud. I will not support the suppression of the freedom of ANY group to engage in free speech. For me, that is what the Capitalists, Fascists, and other oppressor groups do and I will not do that. We are supposed to be liberating society, not exchanging one sort of dictatorship for another.

2. Rights may not be based in fact or concrete details, but to me they represent a good way to find a set of rules for the treatment of every human being.

3. Donning the mirrored sunglasses for a moment, some men you just cant reach. We as humans have a finite amount of energy and we need to recognize there ARE unwinnable battles, or at least battles that cannot be won without expending an unstrategically sound amount of energy. These individuals will not, regardless of what you do, hear you regardless how right you are and how wrong they are.

Chambered Word

6th March 2011, 08:42

Not to shit in your cornflakes comrade but your 'rights' are essentially social agreements that cease to exist once they fail to be respected and enforced. This is why defending attempts to trample on the rights of Muslim people under the rationale that we must defend free speech for everyone is fallacious; if the Tea Partiers want to isolate and demonize a minority, society doesn't have to necessarily agree with that and it definately should not. Can you justify that these people should stand around and let their rights be taken away by someone because if they resist, they might be infringing on another's rights?

I don't think Pinochet gave too much of a shit whose rights he took away so violently, but God forbid that anyone should have ever tried to stop him.

La Comédie Noire

6th March 2011, 09:38

The only reason these people are exercising their right to free speech is because they aren't allowed to burn mosques and kill Muslims yet.

I say let them speak, but their christian god help them if they try to do anything else.

Broletariat

6th March 2011, 11:25

brigadista

6th March 2011, 11:58

Why shouldn't we? What makes hate speech any different than any other kind of speech? If I'm allowed to express my opinion that the Capitalist system is oppressive, why shouldn't someone else be allowed to express their opinion about race, religion, or anything else? A healthy society is diverse and has a wide range of opinion, regardless of the flag thats flying.

this type of disgusting exhibition of hate and racism leads to physical assaults, terrorisation and murder.

Many liberals do not see it this way because they are usually unlikely to be the targets. This is not about expressing an opinion and a right to protest , its about legitimising hatred - eg a right to express hatred supports the right to have those opinions and then to act on it....take it further -

Sam_b

6th March 2011, 14:32

I dont feel anything can be done for the simple fact that individuals like that often will not hear opposing points of view, a confirmation bias is an ugly thing and the effort you invest in fighting against it is MUCH better spent elsewhere.

Your problem here is that this is just about the hate group. It isn't - it is also about defending the community from racism and attack.

Time will push them away from the majority, it WILL make them obsolete and ignored.

I believe this was said about a certain German organisation in the 1930s, but whatever. I think it's pretty clear to most here that the only way that this will happen is if we build a mass opposition and protect our communities. You cannot simply 'ignore' a group such as this.

I disagree. I think we need to let EVERYONE speak. It's when those words become actions that we need to be careful. If the guy sitting next to me on the bus is a Neo-Nazi, whatever, it's no skin off my ass what his beliefs are. But if he tries to act on those beliefs by beating up someone else, THEN it becomes my business and he needs to be dealt with. Coming down on people because they have beliefs or desires that are counter to yours is one of the cornerstones of the fascist way of working and it's something I will not be a part of, I dont care what system it's under.

Yet in this thread you have offered absolutely nothing to the OP about dealing with this group that is very evidently harassing the Muslim community. Is it 'no skin off your ass' when vulnerable members of your community are subject to vile racism either?

Rousedruminations

6th March 2011, 15:12

thanks for the video makes me angry and sad at the same time, i mean whatever happened to scrutinizing (not even) analysing a religion to the point where you know it perfectly before making a judgement ?

That is to say ...

Why judge others without completely knowing or understanding Islam itself ? It makes them very ignorant indeed. What breeds terrorism is not religion but extremism and misrepresentation. Regressing the ideology itself to its earliest forms so its primitive in an already modernistic society seems unrealistic. Religion though ancient, needs to shed off its traditional and ancient beliefs that are non-sensical or at least unreasonable to justify logic itself

Ignorance is bliss, what an odious video.

RED DAVE

6th March 2011, 15:30

You can start by joining or starting a pro-Wisconsin group and then work to generalize.

RED DAVE

Tim Finnegan

7th March 2011, 00:56

This really is just disgusting, here we have a "socialist" defending the Tea Party.
"Freedom is always and exclusively the freedom of the dissenter." I don't believe the great lady ever placed a particular ideological qualifier on what constitutes a legitimate "dissenter".

So let them speak. Let them scream and shout and spit and curse until the throats are sore. Let them bring out all their hate and bile and bigotry for the world to see. And then, shout back. Shout back, shout louder, and shout longer. Shout them down. Because there are more of us than there are of them, and they can only win if we let them.

Proukunin

7th March 2011, 01:09

It wouldve been nice if 10,000 communists could've stormed them out. This kind of hate is around Louisiana 24/7. It's just not organized AS MUCH as this.

Tim Finnegan

7th March 2011, 01:14

It wouldve been nice if 10,000 communists could've stormed them out.
It's been done before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_cable_street). It can be done again. :thumbup1:

(And if that sentiments seems contrary to my previous post, allow me to elaborate: I'm against using state violence to suppress views that I happen to find distasteful, because that sets some horrible precedents, but entirely in favour of the use of popular action to squeeze fascistoids out of common spaces and back into whatever rotten sewer they crawled out of.)

Proukunin

7th March 2011, 01:26

300,000 thousand is even better!

Fulanito de Tal

9th March 2011, 21:06

The OP's original link doesn't work anymore. Does anyone have a copy of the video or know where I can get one?

Thanks in advance!

Fulanito de Tal

9th March 2011, 21:11

The OP's original link doesn't work anymore. Does anyone have a copy of the video or know where I can get one?

Thanks in advance!

Here you go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6t6d9YBuFM

gorillafuck

9th March 2011, 21:31

Hoplite, since you believe in revolution (I assume), would you distribute materials to these groups to say things like this in a time of revolution?

And also, would you tolerate a Ku Klux Klan march through a black neighborhood holding up images of people they've lynched?

Sinister Cultural Marxist

9th March 2011, 23:53

They have a right to do that, just like we have a right to set up a counter-protest ten times as large.

If there's ever anything in California like this again, get people out there to the counter-protest. This shit needs to be fought categorically by leftists who need to try to educate and offer a constructive counter-message.

Broletariat

9th March 2011, 23:56

They have a right to do that, just like we have a right to set up a counter-protest ten times as large.

So I suppose you support the "right" of school children to verbally abuse homosexual students to the point where they suicide? It is their freedom of speech of course.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

10th March 2011, 01:23

So I suppose you support the "right" of school children to verbally abuse homosexual students to the point where they suicide? It is their freedom of speech of course.

I'm not saying that from a moral point of view, just from the legal, practical standpoint. And I didn't say anything about those tragic suicides, that's another case. I mean, practically, in the US what can you do except counter-protest?

Tim Finnegan

10th March 2011, 02:08

And also, would you tolerate a Ku Klux Klan march through a black neighborhood holding up images of people they've lynched?
What, you don't wanna watch a Klansman get bricked? :p

So I suppose you support the "right" of school children to verbally abuse homosexual students to the point where they suicide? It is their freedom of speech of course.
I think that it is possible to entertain support for free expression while simultaneously addressing the fact of emotional violence.

Hoplite

10th March 2011, 18:40

This really is just disgusting, here we have a "socialist" defending the Tea Party.If you're going to be reactionary, be my guest. Just dont expect to be taken seriously.

Your problem here is that this is just about the hate group. It isn't - it is also about defending the community from racism and attack.Why does it hurt you if a small group of idiots is racist? I dont condone racism, but we need to understand that someone simply having an opinion, whatever it is, is not grounds for treating them like the enemy.

Especially since you'd probably heap scorn on them for feeling the exact same way about us for being leftist.

These people were protesting at an event they disagreed with. If they had been protesting outside a Muslim home, fine, I agree that that is harassment and should not be tolerated.

I believe this was said about a certain German organisation in the 1930s, but whatever. I think it's pretty clear to most here that the only way that this will happen is if we build a mass opposition and protect our communities. You cannot simply 'ignore' a group such as this. And opposition is fine, just dont be hypocritical. If you're fighting for a better world, dont pretend you're doing it for "the people" when in reality you're only doing it for YOUR people.

Yet in this thread you have offered absolutely nothing to the OP about dealing with this group that is very evidently harassing the Muslim community.
I suggested several times to counter-protest. What do you want me to say? Grab bricks and go to town? Yeah, THAT will solve problems.

Is it 'no skin off your ass' when vulnerable members of your community are subject to vile racism either?
Again, I support free speech regardless of what that speech is because in my opinion it's safer to let everybody talk rather than trying to pick and choose who we want to hear from.

Hoplite, since you believe in revolution (I assume), would you distribute materials to these groups to say things like this in a time of revolution?
I'm not clear what you're asking. Would I say these things to that group? Absolutely, and I have done in the past. My hometown had a teabagger infestation for a while until everyone got bored.

And also, would you tolerate a Ku Klux Klan march through a black neighborhood holding up images of people they've lynched?
I would classify that as trying to intimidate a community, not an expression of free speech.

Diello

10th March 2011, 18:44

Fulanito de Tal

10th March 2011, 19:03

It amuses me gigantically to hear Christian fundies go on as if Islam is on the brink of sweeping across the U.S. You know, "In a few years it'll be illegal to proclaim your faith in Jesus!" "Christians are the most persecuted group in America!" etc. etc.

That's what they say. What I hear is, "I'm a complete moron and have turned over control of my mind to someone else! Don't be my friend or lend me a hand when I need it!"

Diello

10th March 2011, 19:45

That's what they say. What I hear is, "I'm a complete moron and have turned over control of my mind to someone else! Don't be my friend or lend me a hand when I need it!"

XD What I hear is, "I'm so addicted to the notion of being persecuted that I'll keep going on about how oppressed I am even as I'm stomping someone else's face in!"

MarxistMan

10th March 2011, 19:54

It's real hard almost impossible to turn a racist into a non-racist. Only if a Socialist Workers Party rises to US government, and from a government powerful possition propagates, preaches and teaches the American society non-racism values.

But from our weak individual possition its real hard to turn capitalists, racists, classists right-wingers into real democratic humanist loving people.

Althouth a big economic crisis maybe can make racists people forget about their racism and hatred and concentrate on economic matters, and to mingle and unite with poor americans of all races against the 5% oligarchic ruling class exploiters of USA.

.

.

I really want to take action... not violent.. wouldn't wanna sink to their level... nor give them a reason. What do u guys suggest...vwe cant have this ignorance

MarxistMan

10th March 2011, 20:21

3pyLQbFLxF4
The payment silenced the masses, santified by oppression. I feel angry, i feel violent against the capitalist class

Hello, you know one of the biggest and worst problems of America, of the whole US population is the ultra-absolutist, ultra-pragamatist thinking of most americans. For example if you tell a person that follows a high-carbohydrate diet in USA that low-carbohydrates diets are better than high carbohydrates diets, instead of being open minded to other forms of dieting, and even being open minded to try a low-carb Dr. Atkins diet for a few days, what the high-carb dieter will tell you is that you are crazy, nuts and to fuck off.

And the same is true almost for every thing in America. Americans love to create their own world, with their own set of values, of course not in a Nietzschean free-will sense, but they love to follow set of values that they are taught and given to them to follow by God-Ordained authorities like CNN, NBC, FOX news, schools, teachers and their local church authorities for exchange of little sugar on their cereal bowls (meaning for their weekly paychecks, and food that they eat in USA)

So americans are silenced by their paycheck. Like the song "One" by Creed, that says: "The Payment silenced the masses".

Americans hate to defy the moral values that are given to them by their monster government and authorities.

And I think this is caused by the sole fact that the US government, along with all the US government buildings, its Federal Houses, Federal Public offices, and all the shock and awe fearmongering elements of US government, like its fat bulked policemen, that look more like wrestlers and football players instead of reagular police men (And its true, the policemen of other nations do not like 300 lb. wrestlers like in America most cops look like Hulk Hogans on steroids, maybe to instill fear in US citizens)

And all the fear-mongering elements of the US government that i mentioned here among with many, many, many others are maybe the main cause of why most americans even hate politics, try to stay away from politics, hate even talking about 9-11, JFK, zionism, capitalism, imperialism, etc. Because they are literally scared by the monstrous things in USA that are really meant to instill fear in people.

So maybe that's a big cause of why members of Tea Party, Republican Party are followers of the agenda of their leaders which is white-nationalism, racism and capitalism

.

Problem is tea baggers and their sympathizers don't like being told they are racist and vile

Quail

10th March 2011, 21:43

In the society that we live in, freedom of speech for everyone regardless of what garbage they're spouting is a good thing, in my view. I don't think this because I think that people should be able to incite hatred and violence, but because the alternative would be suppression of "extremist" views by the state, which would work against us on the left. I'm not opposed to stopping people with disgusting views from expressing them, but I think that discriminatory speech should be challenged and stopped by people from below.

Broletariat

10th March 2011, 21:52

If you're going to be reactionary, be my guest. Just dont expect to be taken seriously.

From the looks of things, I'm being taken far more seriously than you. I'm also befuddled as to how, between the two of us, you are the one defending reactionary racists and yet I am the reactionary.

Diello

10th March 2011, 23:29

From the looks of things, I'm being taken far more seriously than you. I'm also befuddled as to how, between the two of us, you are the one defending reactionary racists and yet I am the reactionary.

Ooh! Ooh! I'm not taking you all that seriously!

Honestly, I'm rather taken aback that this is even disputed; of course idiots have a right to their idiot views.

Broletariat

10th March 2011, 23:33

Ooh! Ooh! I'm not taking you all that seriously!

Honestly, I'm rather taken aback that this is even disputed; of course idiots have a right to their idiot views.
I suppose you are against the idea of having the Opposing Ideologies sub-forum on revleft then? Or is it because revleft is private property and can do as it pleases that this is fine?

Diello

10th March 2011, 23:54

I suppose you are against the idea of having the Opposing Ideologies sub-forum on revleft then? Or is it because revleft is private property and can do as it pleases that this is fine?

Whether RevLeft is run one way or the other doesn't really bother me on a personal level. I would run it differently if I were in charge, sure, but it is what it is.

Hoplite

11th March 2011, 19:34

From the looks of things, I'm being taken far more seriously than you. I'm also befuddled as to how, between the two of us, you are the one defending reactionary racists and yet I am the reactionary.
I am defending their right to speak freely, as I would do with anyone who I felt was having their freedom of speech infringed upon. Be they racists, Nazis, Communists, Socialists, workers, etc etc.

Broletariat

11th March 2011, 21:47

I am defending their right to speak freely, as I would do with anyone who I felt was having their freedom of speech infringed upon. Be they racists, Nazis, Communists, Socialists, workers, etc etc.
Then we're right back to this

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2039128&postcount=11

Hoplite

11th March 2011, 22:23

Then we're right back to this

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2039128&postcount=11
I believe I have already answered that question.

Sam_b

13th March 2011, 17:15

Why does it hurt you if a small group of idiots is racist?

Because I don't believe in racial seperatism or this asinine and undefined notion of 'rights'. If the Muslim community is being attacked and threatened by vile racism, it is an attack on myself and the community, because I don't want to see racism creep in through either the front or back door. I'm not going to stand there and have the nerve to call myself a leftist if I don't do anything about it; or sidestep by saying that it apparently 'does not hurt me' because I am not directly threatened by racism.

I dont condone racism, but we need to understand that someone simply having an opinion, whatever it is, is not grounds for treating them like the enemy.

So this communicates an argument of indifference to racism in the community. Why exactly are you defending this group, and much more so than anything you've said about the Muslim community? Surrounding a community event and using threatening and racist rhetoric is not simply an 'opinion'.

These people were protesting at an event they disagreed with. If they had been protesting outside a Muslim home, fine, I agree that that is harassment and should not be tolerated.

So outside a home 'should not be tolerated', but around a place where the community gathers is acceptable? What a twisted world you live in. No doubt you'd also accept this Islamophobia if it were done outside a Mosque right?

And opposition is fine, just dont be hypocritical. If you're fighting for a better world, dont pretend you're doing it for "the people" when in reality you're only doing it for YOUR people.

Does this mean your own political fight is fighting for a better world for the ruling class as well, for instance? Iapologise if i'm not going to leap to the defence of organised racists.

I suggested several times to counter-protest. What do you want me to say? Grab bricks and go to town? Yeah, THAT will solve problems.

You'll see in many of my posts that I argue very much against squadist organisationary tactics, so I have absolutely no idea why you're incinuating that I would advocate 'grabbing bricks and going into town'. Rather than assisting OP in how to organise within the community, you've spent most of your time advocating the defence of the rights of racists. How exactly are you a revolutionary leftist?

Again, I support free speech regardless of what that speech is because in my opinion it's safer to let everybody talk rather than trying to pick and choose who we want to hear from.

That doesn't answer the question. You have shown your indifference to attacks on a vulnerable part of the community under the guise of 'free speech', which has never been defined properly. The problem I think you have is that you genuinely see yourself as separate from the community and its diversity and thus support a liberal position to compensate for a lack of activity or understanding.

Frankly, I don't think you are a revolutionary.

Hoplite

13th March 2011, 22:01

Because I don't believe in racial seperatism or this asinine and undefined notion of 'rights'. If the Muslim community is being attacked and threatened by vile racism, it is an attack on myself and the community, because I don't want to see racism creep in through either the front or back door. I'm not going to stand there and have the nerve to call myself a leftist if I don't do anything about it; or sidestep by saying that it apparently 'does not hurt me' because I am not directly threatened by racism. Racism is dying out. Our attitudes ARE changing and as a result, racism is becoming less and less accepted. I dont see why we need to augment that by shutting down an entire group of people.

So this communicates an argument of indifference to racism in the community. Why exactly are you defending this group, and much more so than anything you've said about the Muslim community? Surrounding a community event and using threatening and racist rhetoric is not simply an 'opinion'. I'm defending the group because I defend anyone who I feel are being unjustly attacked. I find them just as idiotic as you do, but I dont see that that is grounds for restricting their ability to express their opinions.

So outside a home 'should not be tolerated', but around a place where the community gathers is acceptable? What a twisted world you live in. No doubt you'd also accept this Islamophobia if it were done outside a Mosque right? That I would consider harassment. The protest took place outside a fundraising event for a political group. I dont care who the respective groups were or what their ideologies are, it's irrelevant. How is this any different than people protesting outside a fundraiser for any other group? I mean would you be this offended if people protested outside a fundraiser for a Republican candidate?

It seems to boil down to "I think we're right, so we can be dicks and it's ok for us to criticize other people for doing the same things we do because we're right." I cannot in good conscience stand behind that kind of hypocrisy.

Does this mean your own political fight is fighting for a better world for the ruling class as well, for instance? Iapologise if i'm not going to leap to the defence of organised racists. I think you give far too much credit to the racist community. My fight is to create a world where the ruling class have two choices; give up the throne and join the masses or be exiled.

You'll see in many of my posts that I argue very much against squadist organisationary tactics, so I have absolutely no idea why you're incinuating that I would advocate 'grabbing bricks and going into town'. Rather than assisting OP in how to organise within the community, you've spent most of your time advocating the defence of the rights of racists. How exactly are you a revolutionary leftist? I spend my time advocating the defense of any group I feel is being unfairly attacked. Be they racists, trade unionists, Socialists, Neo-Nazis, Democrats, women, students, whatever.

The way I see it, unless you are willing to fight for groups that you may disagree with, you are no different than the ruling class you decry. You just use different vocabulary. If you want to create a system where anyone who expresses a positive opinion of the system is patted on the head and any dissenters or people who hold different beliefs are quashed, fine, but dont expect any help from me. I will not be a party to re-creating our current system with different language.

That doesn't answer the question. You have shown your indifference to attacks on a vulnerable part of the community under the guise of 'free speech', which has never been defined properly. The problem I think you have is that you genuinely see yourself as separate from the community and its diversity and thus support a liberal position to compensate for a lack of activity or understanding. I have explained to you why I feel the way I do. If that's not good enough then I genuinely do not know what to tell you. I wont compromise my beliefs because you dont feel they're "Socialist enough."

Frankly, I don't think you are a revolutionary.
Create a system where only those who agree with the system are allowed to speak and we can test that theory.

Sam_b

13th March 2011, 22:31

Racism is dying out. Our attitudes ARE changing and as a result, racism is becoming less and less accepted. I dont see why we need to augment that by shutting down an entire group of people.

It's always a good idea to start out your response with a sweeping generalisation. Look, for instance, at the popularity of the Jobbik in Hungary, increasing support for the Swedish democrats, the EDL...

What you're doing here is now making excuses for inactivity with the assertion that racism will somehow just wither away altogether if left alone. This idea, platformist or not, was one of the conclusions, if i'm not mistaken, of the Social Democrats and communists in Germany in the 1930s; and then history shows that this was not the case. Why not show some empirical evidence to back up the statement that 'racism is dying out'.

I find them just as idiotic as you do, but I dont see that that is grounds for restricting their ability to express their opinions.

So you're just going to wait for yet more racially-motivated attacks, for instance, to come to some sort of active position? Unbelievable.

That I would consider harassment. The protest took place outside a fundraising event for a political group. I dont care who the respective groups were or what their ideologies are, it's irrelevant. How is this any different than people protesting outside a fundraiser for any other group? I mean would you be this offended if people protested outside a fundraiser for a Republican candidate?

This is again nothing but a copout. This is a wider question, and a wider political question, and you are too obtuse to see it for what it is. The question is whether or not you support a platform for racists. You evidently do, to the point you're publicly defending them on a leftist forum. Funnily enough, this 'protest' is one that is driven solely by white people, surrounding and shouting racial abuse at Muslim families. That this can be defended is pretty dispicable.

It seems to boil down to "I think we're right, so we can be dicks and it's ok for us to criticize other people for doing the same things we do because we're right." I cannot in good conscience stand behind that kind of hypocrisy.

I think in all good conscience you should drop the pretence you're some sort of revolutionary. You are a liberal.

I think you give far too much credit to the racist community. My fight is to create a world where the ruling class have two choices; give up the throne and join the masses or be exiled.

Don't duck the question. Surely you accept that a revolution and fundamental change has to be one that reaches beyond man-made national borders. So what is this 'exile' then?

I don't give too much credit to racists - though i've seen first hand the abuse and physical attacks that come out of these movements. Luton with the EDL is an excellent example of this.

I spend my time advocating the defense of any group I feel is being unfairly attacked. Be they racists, trade unionists, Socialists, Neo-Nazis, Democrats, women, students, whatever.

Disgraceful. Why do you support a platform for fascists, for instance? I'll also take a wild guess at you being a white male with no experience of coming into contact with the fascist community.

I wont compromise my beliefs because you dont feel they're "Socialist enough."

I don't think that they are not 'socialist enough'. I don't think they are socialist at all.

Create a system where only those who agree with the system are allowed to speak and we can test that theory.

I think your track record of posts on this forum is good enough to show that my theory is absolutely fine.

Dimentio

13th March 2011, 22:48

They have removed the video. :(

Hoplite

14th March 2011, 00:15

It's always a good idea to start out your response with a sweeping generalisation. Look, for instance, at the popularity of the Jobbik in Hungary, increasing support for the Swedish democrats, the EDL... You're talking about isolated spurts of activity. Hell even the Klan is still technically around. The overall trend for the acceptability of racism is going down, try standing on the street of any city in America and screaming about Jews or blacks and see what happens.

What you're doing here is now making excuses for inactivity with the assertion that racism will somehow just wither away altogether if left alone. This idea, platformist or not, was one of the conclusions, if i'm not mistaken, of the Social Democrats and communists in Germany in the 1930s; and then history shows that this was not the case. I'd argue that our circumstances today are radically different than the 1930's.

Why not show some empirical evidence to back up the statement that 'racism is dying out'. What would you like?

So you're just going to wait for yet more racially-motivated attacks, for instance, to come to some sort of active position? Unbelievable.
What do you suggest we do?

This is again nothing but a copout. This is a wider question, and a wider political question, and you are too obtuse to see it for what it is. The question is whether or not you support a platform for racists. You evidently do, to the point you're publicly defending them on a leftist forum. Funnily enough, this 'protest' is one that is driven solely by white people, surrounding and shouting racial abuse at Muslim families. That this can be defended is pretty dispicable. Is this the part where we excommunicate each other; you call me a liberal and I call you a fascist. Call it whatever you want, I WILL NOT support a policy of "only me and mine can speak."

I think in all good conscience you should drop the pretence you're some sort of revolutionary. You are a liberal. Yup, looks like this is indeed that part.

Don't duck the question. Surely you accept that a revolution and fundamental change has to be one that reaches beyond man-made national borders. So what is this 'exile' then? No, I dont. I think the idea of nations and borders will serve whatever purpose they need to serve once we have a fundamental shift in our way of thinking, once Capitalism falls.

I tend to take the view that it's not only stupid but arrogant to assume that one person can dictate a system that will meet everyone's needs everywhere. It's something that has to be worked on collectively with input from people that it effects and who will be living under the system. Otherwise how are you any different than a dictator?

I don't give too much credit to racists - though i've seen first hand the abuse and physical attacks that come out of these movements. Luton with the EDL is an excellent example of this. You seem to be mistaking random acts of cheap-beer fueled violence with political awareness and organization. Refresh my memory, how many seats in the House does the Klan control? How about the Senate? How many governors can trace their support to the Aryan Brotherhood?

Disgraceful. Why do you support a platform for fascists, for instance? I'll also take a wild guess at you being a white male with no experience of coming into contact with the fascist community. Defending one's freedom to speak is not the same as supporting their ideology. I shouldnt have to explain that.

I don't think that they are not 'socialist enough'. I don't think they are socialist at all. Good thing for me you arent the Socialist Pope.

I think your track record of posts on this forum is good enough to show that my theory is absolutely fine.
That's fine. But I would suggest you know virtually nothing about me.

Sam_b

14th March 2011, 00:52

You're talking about isolated spurts of activity. Hell even the Klan is still technically around. The overall trend for the acceptability of racism is going down, try standing on the street of any city in America and screaming about Jews or blacks and see what happens.

Which is completely different from organised racism, which this protest represented. Why not show some evidence about suvch stagnation? The far that the far-right is growing in many places is not some sort of isolated phenomena.

I'd argue that our circumstances today are radically different than the 1930's.

Well do so. Do you not agree we need to look at history to an extent and learn from it though? First they came for the Muslims, and I said nothing...

Is this the part where we excommunicate each other; you call me a liberal and I call you a fascist. Call it whatever you want, I WILL NOT support a policy of "only me and mine can speak."

Except you have no evidence to call me a fascist. The problem is, you are linear-thinking again. You are trying to give this notion of 'free speech' to those who want to destroy free speech for numerous sections of the community.

I think the idea of nations and borders will serve whatever purpose they need to serve once we have a fundamental shift in our way of thinking, once Capitalism falls.

eh? You think that a revolution can be isolated and national and achieve the desired affects? This is pretty funny seeing as you talk about when capitalism 'falls', without once aknowledging the idea of borders and capitalism's international and monopolising nature.

I tend to take the view that it's not only stupid but arrogant to assume that one person can dictate a system that will meet everyone's needs everywhere. It's something that has to be worked on collectively with input from people that it effects and who will be living under the system

You're now going widely off-track. Nobody has mentioned 'one person'. The emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself.

ou seem to be mistaking random acts of cheap-beer fueled violence with political awareness and organization

I suggest you know absolutely nothing about the structures of the EDL etc if you think these acts are 'random', or not ideologically seperate.

Refresh my memory, how many seats in the House does the Klan control? How about the Senate? How many governors can trace their support to the Aryan Brotherhood?

Again, a ridiculous question and something that shows up your ignorance. Fascism has, by large, not really been oriented towards electoral politics. Electoral politics are also not always a barometer for political power. If you believe racist groups, a lot who organise on the streets, ie the 'boot boys', are not powerful because they are not elected to the senate; you're completely delusional.
Have you ever actually read anything on the topic of fascism and racism?

I shouldnt have to explain that

Perhaps you should explain that to the Roma population of Hungary, after the 'defence of freedom of speech' for the Jobbik resulted in activists going through towns and burning down buildings. Several people died. Perhaps explain it to the Muslim families that were the target of the protests in the video, about how you rushed to defend the 'freedom of speech' for a racist group but practically paid lip-service to their situation.

But I would suggest you know virtually nothing about me

I know you have a twisted defence of white racist groups when they target vulnerable sections of society.

Hoplite

14th March 2011, 02:19

Which is completely different from organised racism, which this protest represented. Why not show some evidence about suvch stagnation? The far that the far-right is growing in many places is not some sort of isolated phenomena. Except it isnt organized racism. Its a bunch of knuckledraggers who want to feel proactive so they drag themselves off the couch for one day a month to feel like they're doing something to make Rush Limbaugh proud.

You're looking at a bunch of yuppies like it's the second coming of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

You really are giving these people far more credit than is due.

Well do so. Do you not agree we need to look at history to an extent and learn from it though? First they came for the Muslims, and I said nothing...
I agree. But I think we also need to recognize that our circumstances today are much different than they were then. Our attitudes, our entire societal mindset is different.

Except you have no evidence to call me a fascist.
You seem to support a "they're wrong, I'm right, so therefore it's ok to shut them up" policy. That's pretty fascist. Hence why I dont support it.

The problem is, you are linear-thinking again. You are trying to give this notion of 'free speech' to those who want to destroy free speech for numerous sections of the community.
You assume I wouldnt stand in a counter-protest against the racists. Simply because I support someone's right to speak freely, doesnt mean I agree with their ideas.

eh? You think that a revolution can be isolated and national and achieve the desired affects? This is pretty funny seeing as you talk about when capitalism 'falls', without once aknowledging the idea of borders and capitalism's international and monopolising nature. I dont believe revolutions are strictly necessary. In areas where there is already a democratic system in place, I dont see it as necessary. Violence and chaos are antithetical to systems like Communism and Socialism, they dont do well when there is a great deal of chaos.

If we can remove the influences of things like the media, private interests, capital etc etc over people's thinking, we will see people naturally gravitate towards ideas like Communism and Socialism. If people are free to make their own choices, have free access to information, and are not manipulated, they WILL come to this on their own.

Revolution should be used to overthrow dictators, to break oppresive governments, to give people a platform to liberate themselves.

You're now going widely off-track. Nobody has mentioned 'one person'. The emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself.
You seem to think I should have all the answers.

I suggest you know absolutely nothing about the structures of the EDL etc if you think these acts are 'random', or not ideologically seperate. About the EDL specifically, I dont have any detailed information. Considering I dont live in the UK...that would follow.

Again, a ridiculous question and something that shows up your ignorance. Fascism has, by large, not really been oriented towards electoral politics. Electoral politics are also not always a barometer for political power. If you believe racist groups, a lot who organise on the streets, ie the 'boot boys', are not powerful because they are not elected to the senate; you're completely delusional. In our current structure, they dont have any power. They can beat the crap out of people, but there are limits to what brute force can do. Eventually they crumble to internal power struggles, they're no different than any other gang. There IS a reason that most of these groups are a few thousand strong at best and why NOBODY takes them seriously.

Have you ever actually read anything on the topic of fascism and racism?
Any suggestions?

Perhaps you should explain that to the Roma population of Hungary, after the 'defence of freedom of speech' for the Jobbik resulted in activists going through towns and burning down buildings. Several people died. I shouldnt have to explain to you what is wrong with this picture.

Perhaps explain it to the Muslim families that were the target of the protests in the video, about how you rushed to defend the 'freedom of speech' for a racist group but practically paid lip-service to their situation. I would explain it by helping them set up a counter-protest.

I know you have a twisted defence of white racist groups when they target vulnerable sections of society.
If I'm wasting my time talking to you, let me know.

Tim Finnegan

14th March 2011, 03:19

You're looking at a bunch of yuppies like it's the second coming of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
This made me laugh. :laugh:

Sam_b

14th March 2011, 03:34

Except it isnt organized racism. Its a bunch of knuckledraggers who want to feel proactive so they drag themselves off the couch for one day a month to feel like they're doing something to make Rush Limbaugh proud.

So those who organised the demo just stumbled upon it, aye?

"they're wrong, I'm right, so therefore it's ok to shut them up" policy. That's pretty fascist. Hence why I dont support it.

I reccommend you read some Trotsky on fascism to get an idea of what i'm on about. You also seem to have no idea about definitions, hence you're banding around the term 'fascist' here: which is pretty dangerous as it waters down the term.

You assume I wouldnt stand in a counter-protest against the racists.

Fgihting fascism is not merely standing in a demo, it is actively organising in the community to defeat such ideas. I trust you wouldn't help a bit in this, seeing as you support the right of people to hold threatening views, a lot of the time which manifests itself in action.

I dont believe revolutions are strictly necessary. In areas where there is already a democratic system in place, I dont see it as necessary. Violence and chaos are antithetical to systems like Communism and Socialism, they dont do well when there is a great deal of chaos.

Are you a reformist?

You seem to think I should have all the answers.

I don't think you have any answers. Plus I fail to see how this one-liner hear has any relevence to the point I was making.

About the EDL specifically, I dont have any detailed information. Considering I dont live in the UK...that would follow.

So why would you even comment on such a matter if you didn't know what actually happened? This is actually thoroughly dishonest. In addition, this is a cop-out at the end as well. Considering I live in the UK, why, for instance, am I aware of much of what is going on in Wisconsin; or why do we have an understanding of the situation in Egypt?

In our current structure, they dont have any power. They can beat the crap out of people, but there are limits to what brute force can do. Eventually they crumble to internal power struggles, they're no different than any other gang. There IS a reason that most of these groups are a few thousand strong at best and why NOBODY takes them seriously.

Why are you not concerned at the mention of a 'few thousand'? Also, what do you think about the growth of the Tea Party in relation to this? Again I reiterate you are completely wrong if you are connecting power with something that exists within an electoral structure alone.

Any suggestions?

http://www.marxists.org/subject/fascism/index.htm are good selections for a historical basis to fighting fascism. But there are also many others from a myriad of perspectives. I've always looked to Trotsky's works as a basis of my thought.
As an aside, brief but important here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1974/06/fists.htm

I would explain it by helping them set up a counter-protest.

Resistance has to go much deeper than merely a demo however.

Hoplite

14th March 2011, 05:02

So those who organised the demo just stumbled upon it, aye?
So the yuppies can use Facebook.

I reccommend you read some Trotsky on fascism to get an idea of what i'm on about. You also seem to have no idea about definitions, hence you're banding around the term 'fascist' here: which is pretty dangerous as it waters down the term. I'm well aware of what fascism means.

What else would you consider the mentality that only those that you agree with should be allowed to speak?

Fgihting fascism is not merely standing in a demo, it is actively organising in the community to defeat such ideas. I trust you wouldn't help a bit in this, seeing as you support the right of people to hold threatening views, a lot of the time which manifests itself in action.
You're talking about the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills like it's the next Fascist party. I agree that fascism is scary and needs to be fought, but we need to not wear ourselves out fighting people who get their political information from talkshows. You want to get an army together to stomp out these raving Fascists, fine, but I'd rather spend the energy on causes that actually do something useful besides burn a Saturday afternoon.

Are you a reformist?
From what I know of Reform Socialism, sort of. I believe that reform is the best course when you have a relatively open society. Revolution is often necessary to create that open society, but it shouldnt be used to create a Socialist one. Whatever you'd like to call that.

I don't think you have any answers. Plus I fail to see how this one-liner hear has any relevence to the point I was making. I'm not sure I understand the point you're making in this instance.

So why would you even comment on such a matter if you didn't know what actually happened?
So what actually happened?

This is actually thoroughly dishonest. In addition, this is a cop-out at the end as well. Considering I live in the UK, why, for instance, am I aware of much of what is going on in Wisconsin; or why do we have an understanding of the situation in Egypt?
So your issue is that I dont have an encyclopedic knowledge of every group of scumbags on the planet?

Why are you not concerned at the mention of a 'few thousand'?
Because half of 'em are at double-digit IQs. The vast majority of the racist crowd are knuckle-dragging ogres that chug cheap beer and punch each other in the face as a form of artistic expression. There are....and I threw up a little in my mouth in writing this....semi-educated individuals in the racist ranks. But anyone with even the veneer of credibility will ALWAYS be weighed down by the skinheads.

Now what, honestly, are racists going to do?

Also, what do you think about the growth of the Tea Party in relation to this? I think once a new American Idol comes out, they'll get bored. Or until Glenn Beck says something stupid and sinks his career. Teabaggers are, on the whole, ignorant as shit and reactionary as hell. They may make basic changes with rabble-rousing, but in the long term, they'll be lost and forgotten, like a bad fart.

Again I reiterate you are completely wrong if you are connecting power with something that exists within an electoral structure alone.
What "power" do these idiots have?"

http://www.marxists.org/subject/fascism/index.htm are good selections for a historical basis to fighting fascism. But there are also many others from a myriad of perspectives. I've always looked to Trotsky's works as a basis of my thought.
As an aside, brief but important here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1974/06/fists.htm
I'll take a look.

Resistance has to go much deeper than merely a demo however.
And I agree, but let's resist something worthwhile. "Revolution for the Hell of It" is a great book title, it's not a great credo to live by.