wtf are we doing about the revolution [Archive]

Deniz Gezmis

13th September 2003, 17:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 05:14 PM
By training, do you mean running out in the woods with guns training for Guerilla warfare? cause i'm not sure somthing like that is um...safe. I dont know if the Gov. Would react the same way they do to the Aryan Nation and Nazis that like to play soldier...but a revolution must be underground until the las possible moment to ensure the element of suprise.....you dont want to give your opponent any time to prepare
The only way we (The Irish) Brought the British to a stealmate was by killing collaborators.

Now, Are you saying that the revolution should be like the Cuban revolution? Fought by a few guerillas with little trianing, then being joined by peasants, ect.
Or the masses taking over factories, ect.

crazy comie

13th September 2003, 17:37

I think the best form of revoulotion is to take over centrel goverment in a quick operation.

Deniz Gezmis

13th September 2003, 17:52

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 13 2003, 05:37 PM
I think the best form of revoulotion is to take over centrel goverment in a quick operation.
Elaborate, Please.
What part would the masses play? What would the actual "operation" be?

Chewillneverdie

13th September 2003, 22:11

yes much like the Cuban revolution and te ELZN is a revolutionary group in mexico, so they have fought before, plus the training wouldnt be in the U.S. it should also be as quiet as possible, as which target would be next. and swift no big battles on the roads cus you'd be fucked like a duck. The only time a big battle would be okay would be the streets of NYC, cus do you really think they would be stupid enough to use artillery and bombs? and if they did, hey you have alot more comrades now. And if one group declared an all out war guess what, a shitload of other people would join in

Dyst

13th September 2003, 22:16

To start a "revolution" without AT LEAST 50% of revolutionary popularity in your area, no that is not a revolution that is a bloodbath. And training with guns and all, hm, well. I wouldn't join you in that revolution.

RebeldePorLaPAZ

14th September 2003, 02:03

wouldnt it make sense to target another nation 1st because the U$ is so fuckin big and you have to show the U$ that a revolution somewere else can be a positive thing, than promote whats wrong woth other government and establish more socialist countrys to follow in your steps. once seen by the american people than they will have the choice to react. either keep there cappie ways or think other wise and change for the good.

Chewillneverdie

14th September 2003, 05:58

that is not a revolution that is a bloodbath. no it would not be a bloodbath if you dont cluster together, plus what the hell are they gonna do send fucking tanks to a big city? they shoot one building the people will turn on them. All the countries that hate the US right now would surely support us. and i believe there are peasants in america, homeless or the people living in little shacks( trust me there are) why not do the same and show other countries? if you bring that up to revolutionaries in other countries you have made allies. a war is just about the ONLY way to bring down a country like this. Also think of the mass of guns in the country ammo shouldnt be hard to come by, or find terrain that makes it hard to get quite a few troops there without helicopter or planes, then shoot them down. just a few ideas.

Deniz Gezmis

14th September 2003, 09:05

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 05:58 AM

that is not a revolution that is a bloodbath. no it would not be a bloodbath if you dont cluster together, plus what the hell are they gonna do send fucking tanks to a big city? they shoot one building the people will turn on them. All the countries that hate the US right now would surely support us. and i believe there are peasants in america, homeless or the people living in little shacks( trust me there are) why not do the same and show other countries? if you bring that up to revolutionaries in other countries you have made allies. a war is just about the ONLY way to bring down a country like this. Also think of the mass of guns in the country ammo shouldnt be hard to come by, or find terrain that makes it hard to get quite a few troops there without helicopter or planes, then shoot them down. just a few ideas.
Chirac is right wing, As is Schroder, I'm not sure about Putin. But they're hardly going to support a communist revolution. Many countries on the 'Axis of evil' would support a communist revolution, I am sure.

Ian

14th September 2003, 11:16

yeah I spammed here, sorry about that.

the SovieT

14th September 2003, 11:43

all i have to say about this topic is:

Felicia

14th September 2003, 12:46

IAN, SOVIET!!!

KEEP THE PICTURES AND CHILDISH BEHAVIOUR FOR CHIT CHAT!

They are trying to have a serious discussion here, if you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

YOU GUYS SHOULD KNOW BETTER!

STOP THE POINTLESS FLAMES!!

I'm disappointed :(

the SovieT

14th September 2003, 15:04

serious discussion?
since when is this overrated almost spammful topic a serious discussion?

what pisses me off is that most these people donta ctually know what COMMUNISM really is.. yet instead of LEARNING first and THEN debate no they rather say theyr mind and briliant conlclusions about word wide revolutions and hapopy hippy stuff without any actual knowledge..

now i may have a beef with that Felicia and sorry but this thing has gonne too far its time to stop these stupid posts...

Vladimir

14th September 2003, 15:24

Along the way, we may as well start silencing the upper class, i.e the rich, the politicians, the upper police chiefs etc. they can be silenced with our friend called the bullet. :o

Goldfinger

14th September 2003, 15:47

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 01:46 PM
They are trying to have a serious discussion here
You heard her, let's stay on topic.

WE NEED TO FIGHT THE CAPITALISM FOR THE REVOLUTION BECAUSE THE EVEIL PEOPLE ARE CAPITALISM AND NAXIS I SAY NO AGAINST!!1 THIS IS TIME FOR THE REVOLKIUTION AND TO THE VICTORY

BUT WE NEED MORE CHE SHIRTS FIRST

OH, AND I PRONOUNCE IT "CHEY"

ITS THE AMERICAN WAY

FistFullOfSteel

14th September 2003, 16:16

i wanna be a part of the guerrilla group.

革命者

14th September 2003, 17:05

Originally posted by the [email protected] 14 2003, 05:04 PM
serious discussion?
since when is this overrated almost spammful topic a serious discussion?

what pisses me off is that most these people donta ctually know what COMMUNISM really is.. yet instead of LEARNING first and THEN debate no they rather say theyr mind and briliant conlclusions about word wide revolutions and hapopy hippy stuff without any actual knowledge..

now i may have a beef with that Felicia and sorry but this thing has gonne too far its time to stop these stupid posts...
it`s what che-lives is about, SovieT-- you can learn along the way.

most kids don`t have the attention spam to read the communist manifest and don`t have the (political/economical) vocabulair needed, which they can get fimiliar with here--

if you don`t like it, leave-- i bet the ISF will be keen to debate on your elevated level.

When you started here you were a anarchist.... did you do wrong in visiting back then?

commieboy

14th September 2003, 17:57

I'd hate to burst your revolutionary bubble here guys, but an armed struggle cant just be hatched in one night and equipment found at a military surplus...You need to have continous training, you need weapons, money, people time, vehichles....I'd say get reading...
http://www.paladin-press.com/SearchResult....rilla%20warfare (http://www.paladin-press.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=guerilla%20warfare)

Gonna need guns or weapons...dont expect to buy an AK-47 from the store.
http://www.paladin-press.com/SearchResult....x?KeyWords=ZIPS (http://www.paladin-press.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=ZIPS)

After all that you're going to have to know how to survive, hunt, trap fish. Then you have to know Urban warfare, like what kind of wall material can stop what kind of rounds....becuse plaster ain't stoppin' a .223.

Then you have to know hte weapons your scavenge....and how to make bases and armour....its not somthing you can do overnight....What about the millions you'll spend on clothing and food? You cant run out with just a sharp stick...although an FS dagger can pierce average cop Kevlar vests...and that a vest with a trama plate and stop an AK round....But a Mosin NAgant round will blow right through it.

These are things you must know and always have fresh in your mind.....most of you arent ready for a revolution....all the adivice i can give anyone is READ UP! YOu can never know enough about war, because the is always somthing to get screwed up.

Invader Zim

14th September 2003, 21:25

Originally posted by æ+Sep 14 2003, 06:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (æ @ Sep 14 2003, 06:05 PM)
the [email protected] 14 2003, 05:04 PM
serious discussion?
since when is this overrated almost spammful topic a serious discussion?

what pisses me off is that most these people donta ctually know what COMMUNISM really is.. yet instead of LEARNING first and THEN debate no they rather say theyr mind and briliant conlclusions about word wide revolutions and hapopy hippy stuff without any actual knowledge..

now i may have a beef with that Felicia and sorry but this thing has gonne too far its time to stop these stupid posts...
it`s what che-lives is about, SovieT-- you can learn along the way.

most kids don`t have the attention spam to read the communist manifest and don`t have the (political/economical) vocabulair needed, which they can get fimiliar with here--

if you don`t like it, leave-- i bet the ISF will be keen to debate on your elevated level.

When you started here you were a anarchist.... did you do wrong in visiting back then? [/b]
most kids don`t have the attention spam to read the communist manifest and don`t have the (political/economical) vocabulair needed, which they can get fimiliar with here--

Lovely touch... Even if it was an accidental typo.

Chewillneverdie

16th September 2003, 00:25

comrades, training is key, and yes i can hunt , fish, scavenge, and i know weapons quite well. it is all about suprise, urban warfare is quite tricky if you dont have a way of escape. I know my stuff and i dont believe it would be a futile attempt, and shouldnt some1 update a new manifesto. My friends the time has changed and people are differant. change the name a bit also, Communism still has quite an overshadow of hatred. They will never know what hit them when it starts

FistFullOfSteel

18th September 2003, 12:49

yeh u right.

commieboy

18th September 2003, 19:22

Comrade Chewillneverdie its not just knowing how to survive, its knowing how to survive without detection. You'll have to have a firm knowlege of boobytraps....you cant just beat the crap out of armed personel.

Have you read Che's book on guerilla warfare? Very good, and Mao's book is very good its become one of my faves.....and "Afghan Guerilla warfare" was written by the Mujiadeen, they are the people we should be learning from...think about it...they had a bunch of old WWII rifles and a hand grenade and they defended their home from one of the two strongest countries in the world.

See, i can put it this way....you dont just read a book about surviving in the woods. You always read that book, you read it over and over to keep it fresh in your mind.

I'm not trying to piss you off, im just saying reading a book once doesnt make anyone an expert woodsman. I bet no one here is an expert unless they've been holding out.....we just need to know all this stuff not just read about it but have it!

One other thing is that the US military's manuals are available to purchase...you could know what the opistion is going to do, like they have a manual for Guerillas.

SO im just saying always read, and always know :hammer: :che: :castro: :cuba:

Saint-Just

18th September 2003, 20:10

Originally posted by æ@Sep 14 2003, 05:05 PM
if you don`t like it, leave-- i bet the ISF will be keen to debate on your elevated level.

When you started here you were a anarchist.... did you do wrong in visiting back then?
He does post on ISF. What political pursuasion are you of? And how do you know about ISF, have you ever visited?

Chewillneverdie

18th September 2003, 22:37

no comrade you arent pissing me off, i can survive, undetected and im quite good at finding ways out of a bad situation. Ive read Guerrilla Warfare numerous times (it has become my bible) and ive played paintball for years, i always use a cheap gun i customize so its quiet and accurate. and comrades its the United States guns and ammo will be easy to access. plus what is the american army gonna do? bomb everything? no my comrades if they bombed a big city it might fall to our advantage. dont worry im prepared. I do know what the enemy shall do, drive around and waste ammo in the surroundings. but it doesnt take 200 rounds to kill a person (unless their fucking superman then were screwed :D ) just one...

Chewillneverdie

28th September 2003, 06:28

biggest problem to me is so many people are complaining about this government but they sit on their fat lazy ass's doing nothing. If anything support the ELZN.

Vinny Rafarino

28th September 2003, 07:18

Well you've got heart Chewillneverdie, however you lack practical sense on the matter of first world armed struggle. Any organised group will maintain complete secrecy UNDERGROUND. When above ground the members will act in every way like a productive member of society. The goal is to have a large group of highly trained revolutionary guerrillas available at the exact moment the revolution begins.

These individuals will be ready to train the proletariat in the art of urban guerilla warfare.

The second objective is to insight massive domestic disturbance (popular riots) and attempt to escalate these disturbances into conditions that will possibly lead to organised revolt. These groups very rarely attack with direct action as several years of planning is required to successfully hit a target while being able to limit the number of casualties within the group. After any successful operation, the urban guerrilla will spend an undeterminable amount of time underground.

Targets are hit mainly for the purposes of training, but also to keep the the revolution fresh in the minds of the proletariat. Until a time that conditions are more geared towards full scale revolution, armed geurilla groups will maintain a very limited number of strikes.

Urban armed struggle is not something that anyone that has played "paintball" a few times with his mates can actually grasp with any amount of reason. These groups are out there, and you never know when they will strike, it may come sooner than everyone thinks. My advice would be for you to quietly seek out like minded individuals within the CP and most definitely, stop talking about being "ready" to be an urban armed guerilla, what you plan to to and what you think you are capable of.

Lastly, I would like to remind you that Che's book is a model for urban armed struggle and has no value in the first world. I also suggest you rid yourself of the idea that ANY TIME SOON there will be massive warfare against the government on the streets of the first world. This type of action would lead to the dessimation of the entire geurilla force within a matter of hours. You ask "what are they gonna do? Roll tanks into the streets?" Yes comrade they will do that most definitely, and much much worse.

REDWARRIOR

29th September 2003, 03:19

If u were to launch a guerilla urban war agianst the US forces there are some things to be considered first, and kept in mind: Remember that the US loves to use it very large and well eqquiped air force. They are mostlikely to send in waves of air craft and bomb the hell outa the city before sending in their troops. The americans are afraid to get into a bloody conflict where lives can be lost. yet this point can be used to ur advantage....force them into a bloody conflict where bombing is not an opption...oh yea, and stock up on the anti-aircraft weapons if u are even considering launching an assult in a us city....not like it's gonna happen any time soon no matter how much we wanna see it happen.
Oh, and don't forget all the special forces that would be loving to stick there m-16 up ur ass.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

29th September 2003, 17:26

Small anti-air weapons don't have any effect against high altitude aircraft. Like B-52's. Altough they could be very handy in a later stage of battle, in which US choppers provide support to US infantery. But portable anti-air weapons are very expensive. So I think that they should be only delivered to elite-units. Regular units should have RPG's, which are very effective anti-personel, anti-tank and if used properly effective anti-chopper weapon. (the automatic exploding head detonates at 800 meters)

To avoid their bombings, you should "embrace" them. Which means that you should encounter troops only at close distances. Close enough to avoid bombings, this makes ofcourse their massive fire power useless. Same tactic that the mujahideen used in the war against the soviets. Made the soviet airsuperiority and ground firepower useless.

Furthermore, a city is the attackers/occupiers worst nightmare, if his battleling geurilla's. The Geurilla's can hide weapons, ammo in their city. Perform hit and run actions with ease and afterwards seek safety back at home, while acting like a normal "liberated" person. Which is what is now pretty much happening in Iraq.

This should be the most important, form cells. Don't meetup with anyone, except from your own cell. Plan your actions well and don't go on your own. Use a lot of RPG's. It can easily blow up the much used Humvees in Iraq.

Chewillneverdie

29th September 2003, 20:11

a really good shot could take out a chopper. AND HA AND I TOLD U SO! to all those who said you shouldnt fight in urban scenarios :D

Eastside Revolt

29th September 2003, 22:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 05:43 AM
hey just curious but all most of you are talk, what the hell are you doing to kick the revolution into gear? i know some1 who might be able tofind the ELZN for training and support. haha if youve got any better ideas post on my site www.xanga.com/antibushmovement
Fankly buddy I don't know how much money you've got, but I sure as hell can't afford an AK or a trip to Mexico for that matter.

Better ideas?

Well, we could not go on suicide missions, and we might not want to make it TOO EASY for them to make us look-like "terrorists". :D

I mean geurilla training might be useful when the next depression comes, but that might not come for another 50 years, and I don't know about you but I'll 71 years old then. :lol:

My personal advice, if you want to prepare yourself militarily for a possible revolution. Learn some martial arts, and keep learning. That way if shit actually does hit the fan you might be sly enough pull-off a little resistance. :ph34r:

As far as us "being all talk" I don't even think we are "all talk" which to me is a problem. Instead we are more like mostly a load of fucking hot air. We have a bunch of people who uselessly cling to these OLD ideologies that we may or may not, know anything about. We constantly argue over a bunch of theorhetical bullshit (as if ANY of us ar ever gonna see anarchism, or communism within our lifetimes even if we DO see a revolution). We don't listen to eachother, so don't call us "all talk" because to me "talks" require a exchange, instead of complete stonewalling. ;) .

RyeN

29th September 2003, 22:59

I dont think that a revolution where we kill a bunch of Capitolist is going to help our cause. Wait IT would but not to the extent of bringing down the system. We need to wage an Internal war against Capitolism. The Weapon of our mind is more powerful than any gun. Do you really think that any sort of resistance against the super powers will do anything. Sadam and his regime were the biggest opposition to America and how long did it take the Americans to take over that country.

I think our revolution if it is going to be successful will be more covert. Take up computer hacking instead of Gurelia warefare and your arsenal will be stronger than with a gun. Shut down the sytem they run on and such. Just some new Ideas as opposed to Violence.

Chewillneverdie

1st October 2003, 02:33

DAMN HACKERS ALWAYS MESS UP MY PORN!!! :lol: but how will they overrun their own country? hmmm now there is a thought to ponder (sorry i just drank like 8 cups of coffee :blink:

RyeN

11th October 2003, 09:03

go to
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=0&#entry279081 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=18045&st=0&#entry279081)

shakermaker

11th October 2003, 09:34

where is the revolution gonna start?
are you trying to make 1, 2 or several Iraqs in europe? ...or in latin american?
and hoping that peasants are going to help ya?
and do the revolution like Che wanted it to happen?

Hawker

14th October 2003, 01:11

I suggest if the revolution happens.We first gain support of communists countries.We have to go to Vietnam and learn how to make traps,to some S. American countries and learn how to fight as guerillas professionally.Then we have to send envoys to communist countries,although there aren't many,and all of them are afraid of the US,the only country capable of matching the US military prowess is China,but they have become a ***** of the US just like most countries.I guest we're pretty much on our own.If the revolution happens and we need to get rid of some people,I suggest we try "selective terrorism",a form of terrorism invented by Michael Collins during the Irish Revolution.

Yazman

17th October 2003, 14:05

Well could any of you please provide information as to how any of us might contact and/or join any guerilla-based organisations, or something along those lines? This would be most helpful.

Chewillneverdie

26th October 2003, 00:20

well well boys, my movement FFE supports the EZLN, why dont you just join up with them? there are numerous ways. I could give you some info if your realy into it. but Guerrilla groups should fight some revolutions in Central and South America first. There are several reasons, one to draw imperialist army away from the country, two support of several newly established governments, three if atrocities are commited the people will know. surely the men would have ample training and perhaps supplies. IM me or PM me if you would like to know lots of ways to support the EZLN or perhaps join up

Man in the White Shirt

26th October 2003, 01:14

Comrade Che, I admire your spunk, but I'm a reasonable man, a young white (in my case) American boy can not just go join a foreign revolution. If you were a guerilla wouldn't seem a bit odd to you? And even if you would not been put against a wall and shot for being a spy, what could you do? Do you speak Spanish, or more importantly their diliect? Do you know how to live off the land, stay quiet, shoot a gun? Could you kill someone?

The questions I've listed above are the inherent problem with becoming a "Che". Without a reputation, or a leat the ablilty to talk with the locals, you can not help all that much. You would help the ELZN by startig a solidarity movement in the States or something along those lines. Revolutionaries can only fight in their own revolutions. communism can not be created by a band of people who liberate others counties for them. Remember, "liberators do not exist, the people liberate themselves".

ComradeRobertRiley

28th October 2003, 19:17

I have mentioned in other threads about waging an internal war, I was entitled CHU (communist Hackers Unit).

I think its a great idea :-)

Soviet power supreme

29th October 2003, 17:40

I think that revolution starts from a street protest.Street protests evolve into riots and riots overthrow the goverment.In Bolivia the president was overthrown by the people at the streets.That may not be a perfect example but it shows the power of riots.

I think that guerilla warfare could only succeed in third world countries today. Maybe in the future we can see guerillas in New york,London , Paris, etc,etc.

What can be done?Well, I think that you got two options.You can spread the communism in the western countries or join a guerilla army in the Kolumbia,Mexico,Nepal etc,etc.

My english is so bad :(

Man in the White Shirt

29th October 2003, 20:33

My english is so bad

It is much better then many of the kiddies from the U$A. Almost as good as the Kapitan's!

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

29th October 2003, 21:40

In the guts of every guerrilla movement, there is a small utopian society. People working, fighting, and living together. You cannot just have everyone try and contribute their own two cents to communism. I suggest we do this the way FARC does it. Just start a free commune, try starting legit via producing as if you were a businuss to fund food, facilities, other necessities for survival, until you have some manpower, and then start funding it with drug money to get the funds to get some weapons. (Although I am for the banning of drugs, this is the only way possible). Eventually you will have the money and manpower to get start carrying out some small objective based missions. Assassinate someone, spread some propaganda, blow up a large businuss, etc. Even though these things will not necessarily bring about revolution, they will cause the movement to gain some momentum, and do at least some harm to the capitalists. Do you think Fidel Castro was expecting his first assault to immeditately bring about revolution? Do you think he even had support of the general people? At first he didn't, he had to get out there are earn it, but once people saw what he was trying to accomplish, they started to join his movement. You don't need support of the people to start a revolution, you just need support to finish it. There are no prohibative expences via this method, and even your internet armchair revolutionaries can start to partake in the festivities.

Man in the White Shirt

29th October 2003, 23:54

Do you think Fidel Castro was expecting his first assault to immeditately bring about revolution?

If you are refering to the assault on the barracks before he fled to Mexico, yes, he thought such a strike would spark an uprising.

Kez

30th October 2003, 10:40

Read, Educate
Discuss
Organise

Comrade Marcel

31st October 2003, 14:49

Read first, fight later.

The Art of War - by Sun-Tzu (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/sun-tzu/works/art-of-war/index.htm)

The Art of War -by Niccollo Machiavelli (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/machiavelli/works/art-war/index.htm)

On War - By Clausewitz (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/clausewitz/index.htm)

Guerrilla Warfare - By Lenin (http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1906/sep/30.htm)

On Guerrilla Warfare - By Mao Tse-Tung (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/1937/guerrilla-warfare/index.htm)

On guerrilla Warfare - By Che Guevara (Does anyone know were to find this online?)

that's a basic list, a more complete one can be found here (http://marxists.org/subject/war/index.htm).

The Children of the Revolution

4th November 2003, 22:55

A revolution will not occur during our lifetime - in the West. Revolution, when it comes, will be in the countries with the largest exploited class, Latin America for example. Capitalism has transcended national boundaries. The "bourgeoisie" are almost exclusively white American/Europeans, whereas the "proletariat" live in countries where labour is still cheap; Indian sweatshops being a case in point. The unemployed ex-miner in Britain recieves at least 10x the average world wage from the state. This doesn't mean we have defeated poverty - we have merely shifted the burden elsewhere. A Revolution is therefore unlikely in our society. The aim of Communists worldwide should be to politicise the exploited classes on which the West depends. How can one purchase a 'Starbucks' if the coffee slaves / workers earning $1 a day rebel? Once the masses in the developing countries unite, the fall of Western exploitation is inevitable.

bush youth

5th November 2003, 00:34

I agree we've shifted the burden elsewhere, but we haven't exactly defeated poverty... or more so class struggle in our own country either. There is no capitalist country with out proletarians in it. America/Europe has tons. Of course, 3rd world countries are being exploited by America/Europe as well, but I think it's most important to first free our own country of exploitation... If we free our own country,,, by getting rid of capitalism,,, America/Europe will no longer be exploiting other countries... because of its fortunate lack of capitalism.

BuyOurEverything

5th November 2003, 00:48

I agree, people don't tend to revolt when they have enough to eat and aren't being tortured, as is the case with most people in the first world. The third world needs to revolt and when the flow of ridiculously cheap goods into the first world stops, then it will change.

The Children of the Revolution

5th November 2003, 01:16

"bush youth";

You are, of course, correct when you say:
There is no capitalist country with out proletarians in it. Alas, I never said there was. I only wished to indicate the massive difference in our societies perception of poverty. I think Marx intended for revolution to occur when the situation of the proletariat became unbearable - there's a quote on the tip of my tongue but I can't seem to remember it. Although there are huge differences in the standard of living of an unemployed manual labourer in the UK and his ex-boss, there are equally huge differences between the standard of living of said worker, and the coffee picker, or the football maker in India.

The most brutal exploitation then, is clearly in the 'developing' world - it is here that the excesses of capitalism will be felt most strongly, and that revolutionary ideas will spread most rapidly. When the Proletarians rebelled in Tsarist Russia, there had been no foreign source of labour; the markets had not yet expanded overly far. Britain, France, and Germany (to some extent) survived the 19th centuary without revolution because they drew upon and plundered their empires. America had only recently become independent, therefore the people rejected further change. In Russia, oppression was felt at home - the worst excesses of capitalism were levied on Russians. And a revolution (of sorts) took place.

When the proletarians of the developing world realise their plight, a revolution WILL be inevitable, and it will be driven by the masses. In the Western world, the majority of the populace (who are content with their possessions and their money - and are consumed by greed) would oppose a revolution, thereby undermining its legitimacy no matter how noble the cause. When the developing world undergoes a revolution, the very foundations of our "modern", "secure" world - the cheap products gained by exploiting others - will be shattered. And the West will follow the developing world in glorious revolution!!! (Well, we live in hope!!!)

bush youth

5th November 2003, 01:23

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 01:48 AM
I agree, people don't tend to revolt when they have enough to eat and aren't being tortured, as is the case with most people in the first world. The third world needs to revolt and when the flow of ridiculously cheap goods into the first world stops, then it will change.
It seems so easy for them just stop succumbing, and I see where both of you guys are coming from, but consider, for the sake of argument, that people who live in 3rd world countries just want to survive.. they're not exactly politically aware. Which isn't their fault, they just want to get through the day with enough food on their plate.
Even when tortured... they'll just become lifeless and go into "survival mode".. they would become exhausted and more or less lifeless.

If they were to rebel, and stop working for $1/day in sweatshops, they wouldn't have any money, and therefore no food. A rebellion wouldn't work so well under starvation. (In sweatshops in Cambodia for example, workers are fired for missing days.)

Another thing preventing them, like Comrade Marcel and Kamo said, revolution takes a lot of organization and education. Needless to say, that's something that isn't as widely available to 3rd world countries as is the West.

The Children of the Revolution

5th November 2003, 01:49

That was the entire crux of the arguement!!! Instead of trying to carry out the impossible (in my view) task of instigating a revolution in a hostile environment, (i.e. the West) communists should make it their aim to politicise this potentially revolutionary class abroad!!! The very fact that these slaves / workers ARE starving should only increase their righteous anger, directed at the capitalist oppressors - which is how revolutions are started!!!

I do take your point that many of the worlds poor exist on a survivalist basis - the West deliberately keeps it this way. If the workers had some degree of security or stability, they may decide that they could outlast the West in a 'strike scenario'. Unlikely perhaps, but possible. However, once these same workers see the flagrant inequality that exists in the world, they will justifiably be incensed. Having been politically educated, and driven by years of living as second class citizens, a revolution WILL follow.

Although the Russian Revolution (long live Lenin, or rather his memory) was carried out militarily by an "elite", the revolution was broadly supported by the workers. They had been existing along a survivalist line, but risked persecution, torture by the Okhrana, or death from the Cossacks and flooded onto the streets in their thousands. It is this revolutionary fervour that must be harnessed if a revolution is ever to succeed. It is found only in the TRULY oppressed - 90% of which lie in the 'developing' world.

Hawker

5th November 2003, 01:51

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 4 2003, 11:55 PM
A revolution will not occur during our lifetime - in the West. Revolution, when it comes, will be in the countries with the largest exploited class, Latin America for example. Capitalism has transcended national boundaries. The "bourgeoisie" are almost exclusively white American/Europeans, whereas the "proletariat" live in countries where labour is still cheap; Indian sweatshops being a case in point. The unemployed ex-miner in Britain recieves at least 10x the average world wage from the state. This doesn't mean we have defeated poverty - we have merely shifted the burden elsewhere. A Revolution is therefore unlikely in our society. The aim of Communists worldwide should be to politicise the exploited classes on which the West depends. How can one purchase a 'Starbucks' if the coffee slaves / workers earning $1 a day rebel? Once the masses in the developing countries unite, the fall of Western exploitation is inevitable.
I agree.Capitalism is expanding all over the world.Communism is the class to destory it.