Imperialists threatening war crime trial.

[Threetune]

Now the imperialists are threatening war crime trial:

“The International Criminal Court will open an investigation Thursday into alleged crimes against humanity in Libya, the chief prosecutor's office has announced. Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo will work with the United Nations, African Union and Arab League and request information from Interpol and other sources, the office in The Hague said Wednesday. Moreno-Ocampo will deliver a report to the UN Security Council within two months.” Etc,etc,.

Maybe they can ask International Trotskyism to provide evidence?

[Threetune]

The butcher Mubarak and gang can walk away to a pampered retirement with billions. So why pick on Gaddafi for special hostile treatement, if his government poses no threat at all to imperialist plans?

[Omsk]

Ah,as always,they cant wait to 'press charges' against everyone who stands in their way,if they want to arrest people on accusations involved with war-crimes,maybe they should start by arresting the NATO war-criminals.:mad:

[Salyut]

Yes. Its not like Gaddafi has done anything bad amirite? The CIA-anarcho trot zionists are out to get him and comrade bob.

oh the humanity of it all :crying:

[Omsk]

Im not trying to say that Gadafi is inocent,but i want to bring up the fact that they like to accuse and arrest people because of war-crimes,while protecting war-criminals who were on their side.
You dont understand anything.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Im not trying to say that Gadafi is inocent,but i want to bring up the fact that they like to accuse and arrest people because of war-crimes,while protecting war-criminals who were on their side.
You dont understand anything.

Yes, like in the famed Nuremberg Trials, right? Oh, the horror. :rolleyes:

[Salyut]

Im not trying to say that Gadafi is inocent,but i want to bring up the fact that they like to accuse and arrest people because of war-crimes,while protecting war-criminals who were on their side.
You dont understand anything.

yes i have been unaware that that has been the status quo for the last sixty-seventy years

derp

[brigadista]

US runs tings at the ICC

[Omsk]

Yes, like in the famed Nuremberg Trials, right? Oh, the horror.
Ever heard of NATO war - crimes in former Yugoslavia?No?

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Ever heard of NATO war - crimes in former Yugoslavia?No?

Yes, I have heard. Which is so relevant to the OP's anti-Trotskyist tirade.

War crimes trials are obviously always going to be about victor's justice. That happened at Nuremberg with Nazis, who certainly deserved it as the monsters that they were anyway. And the same process was applied to Slobodan.

Still, I really cannot see the special point of tirades or complaints about that when a reactionary killer get the shaft from his imperialist former friends. Do you think Marxists should tear up about this?

[Salyut]

Ever heard of NATO war - crimes in former Yugoslavia?No?

Yeah...not like rape camps or ethnic cleansing was going on or anything. Trotskyite lies.

Also, I now have a proper workstation and can answer in depth. I believe that gunning down protestors on its own does not constitute a war crime under international law - or god knows the ICC would be backed up for years.

In the case of Gaddafi; I think its his use of aerial bombardment that pushed this into war crimes territory. The precedent goes all the way back to the Second Hague Conference.

[Sasha]

US runs tings at the ICC

That must be then why they refuse too ratify and even passed an bill allowing them to go into the hague armed and take prosecuted US citizens by force.

You simplistic idiots are an embarrassment to actual anti imperialism.

[Omsk]

Hague with Slobodan.
Not talking about Slobodan,im talking about the many people who died in the NATO bombing strikes.It's allright if the politicians dont get justice,but the people deserve it.

hich is so relevant to the OP's anti-Trotskyist tirade.
Anti-Trotskyist tirade or not,the west likes to throw war crime accusations,it's almost always on their side.

Do you think Marxists should tear up about this?
No,not about him,this is not about him,this is about all the people who evaded justice and lived on..

Yeah...not like rape camps or ethnic cleansing was going on or anything
Rape camps? ....
Nevermind,a crime does not justify another crime.Even 1 life lost is a tragedy.

[Salyut]

Do you think Marxists should tear up about this?

We need a good old fashioned dialectical pity party.

[Salyut]

Rape camps? ....


Yes. Mass war rape combined with concentration camps.


Nevermind,a crime does not justify another crime.Even 1 life lost is a tragedy.

You'd have a problem if the Libyans put him up against the wall? :confused:

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Not talking about Slobodan,im talking about the many people who died in the NATO bombing strikes.It's allright if the politicians dont get justice,but the people deserve it.

Anti-Trotskyist tirade or not,the west likes to throw war crime accusations,it's almost always on their side.

No,not about him,this is not about him,this is about all the people who evaded justice and lived on..

Rape camps? ....
Nevermind,a crime does not justify another crime.Even 1 life lost is a tragedy.

The OP seems to want an anti-Trotskyist pity party for Gaddhafi. I'm very happy you don't share his point of view.

[Omsk]

Yes. Mass war rape combined with concentration camps.
The Yugoslav civil war was a complex and horrible conflict,lets not get into any discussions because neither do you nor i,know the real truth.

You'd have a problem if the Libyans put him up against the wall?
I was talking about the crimes in Yugoslavia,dont pull things out of the context.
Gadafi deserves no pity,his acts were unacceptable.

[Salyut]

The Yugoslav civil war was a complex and horrible conflict,lets not get into any discussions because neither do you nor i,know the real truth.

The complexity of Balkan politics and history don't excuse what happened.

[khad]

"We had 70-80 people from Chad working for our company - they were cut dead with pruning shears and axes, attackers saying: 'You are providing troops for Gaddafi'”

-Turkish worker, quoted in the BBC.

What are the chances that these perpetrators will be caught and tried for war crimes?

While no one is denying that high levels of violence have been committed by government forces, it is not wrong to point out the hypocrisy of the ICC either.

[Salyut]

What are the chances that these perpetrators will be caught and tried for war crimes?

If they get captured I strongly doubt the case will go to trial...


it is not wrong to point out the hipocrisy of the ICC either.I think its the way the law is framed. I need to go talk this shit out with a lawyer I know and then I'll see if I can get back to you on it. I could see a deal being cut where Mubarak got immunity from ICC prosecution in exchange for his giving up power - but if that is the case I don't think we'll find out (at least in the short term).

I won't deny that the ICC or any international body isn't prone to hypocrisy - but in this case I can't see it explaining the lack of charges alone.

[blake 3:17]

Maybe they can ask International Trotskyism to provide evidence?

Please quit it with the Trot bashing. Many of us will be actively opposing imperialist military interventions.

[Omsk]

The complexity of Balkan politics and history don't excuse what happened.
Im not looking for exuces,im trying to say that is a matter so complex i doubt we could come to an agreement in an eventual discussion.

[Salyut]

Im not looking for exuces,im trying to say that is a matter so complex i doubt we could come to an agreement in an eventual discussion.

"Rape camps are a terrible thing and a crime(s) against humanity."

How can we not agree on that? :confused:

[khad]

"Rape camps are a terrible thing and a crime(s) against humanity."

How can we not agree on that? :confused:
What about KLA human trafficking and organ harvesting that NATO supported? You worry so much about rape, but what about the Americans who were selling girls as young as 12 into slavery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jan/22/whistleblower-sex-traffickers-bosnia


On the last night, a handful of us gathered by the swimming pool to share some beers. "Hi y'all!" a man called Jim, from Mississippi, called. "Don't start the party without me." Jim had greasy grey hair, tobacco-stained teeth and was wearing nothing but swimming trunks. He grabbed a beer and splashed his way into the pool, telling us that he had already been on one peacekeeping mission in Bosnia and had liked it so much he was signing on for another year. He described how scenic the country was. Then he said, "And I know where you can get really nice 12- to 15-year-olds." There was an awkward silence as the others looked at me, the only woman in the group. But all I could think was that I must have misheard, or perhaps missed a part of the conversation that would have somehow put his comment into context. DynCorp – now riding high on its coveted position as one of the largest government contractors – certainly would not be employing a boasting paedophile....

In the following weeks, women and girls began to show up at the station door. Their stories were eerily similar, and their accounts of who was paying to use them were becoming more and more detailed. A clear but disturbing picture was forming. All across the country, brothels masquerading as cafes, bars and hotels had sprouted practically overnight around the military bases, where there were not only soldiers but hundreds of DynCorp employees. Girls and women were herded in, forced to strip and evaluated by bidders who bought and sold them like cattle.

Hypocrites like you sicken me. There were war crimes on all sides, so don't pretend like your shit don't stink.

[Omsk]

That is a perfect example,both sides did some horrible things,and preaty much the only thing we can agree with is that something like the conflict in former YU should never happen again.(although,i afraid that is unlikely.)

[Salyut]

What about KLA human trafficking and organ harvesting that NATO supported?

That I didn't know about. Did NATO actively support it or did they just pretend not to notice? I'm not sure if that's actually covered as a war crime or something else - but I'll be sure to ask the aforementioned lawyer.



That is a perfect example,both sides did some horrible things,and preaty much the only thing we can agree with is that something like the conflict in former YU should never happen again.

I agree.

[Sir Comradical]

Ever heard of NATO war - crimes in former Yugoslavia?No?

As a side note, those trials were carried out by NATO, not by the ICC.

[khad]

That I didn't know about. Did NATO actively support it or did they just pretend not to notice? I'm not sure if that's actually covered as a war crime or something else - but I'll be sure to ask the aforementioned lawyer.


On the last night, a handful of us gathered by the swimming pool to share some beers. "Hi y'all!" a man called Jim, from Mississippi, called. "Don't start the party without me." Jim had greasy grey hair, tobacco-stained teeth and was wearing nothing but swimming trunks. He grabbed a beer and splashed his way into the pool, telling us that he had already been on one peacekeeping mission in Bosnia and had liked it so much he was signing on for another year. He described how scenic the country was. Then he said, "And I know where you can get really nice 12- to 15-year-olds." There was an awkward silence as the others looked at me, the only woman in the group. But all I could think was that I must have misheard, or perhaps missed a part of the conversation that would have somehow put his comment into context. DynCorp – now riding high on its coveted position as one of the largest government contractors – certainly would not be employing a boasting paedophile....

In the following weeks, women and girls began to show up at the station door. Their stories were eerily similar, and their accounts of who was paying to use them were becoming more and more detailed. A clear but disturbing picture was forming. All across the country, brothels masquerading as cafes, bars and hotels had sprouted practically overnight around the military bases, where there were not only soldiers but hundreds of DynCorp employees. Girls and women were herded in, forced to strip and evaluated by bidders who bought and sold them like cattle.

Clean out your own outhouse before *****ing about anyone else's smell

[Threetune]

The question of Trotskyism joining in with the imperialist attack on Libya by repeating the hysterical demonising propaganda in readiness for further imperialist intervention is not an Anti-Trotskyist tirade. It is a fact. All your attempts to divert attention away from that fact are pointless and as shameful as the fact itself.

[Salyut]

Clean out your own outhouse before *****ing about anyone else's smell

Where am I disagreeing with you?



The question of Trotskyism joining in with the imperialist attack on Libya by repeating the hysterical demonising propaganda in readiness for further imperialist intervention is not an Anti-Trotskyist tirade. It is a fact. All your attempts to divert attention away from that fact are pointless and as shameful as the fact itself.

Not sure I'm following you.

[Omsk]

Well than you should inform yourself rather than starting with a 'fact discussion' straight away.
NATO pretended not to notice the crimes,and they generally never did turn much atention on the 'other side'.Not to mention the current leader of Kosovo is a criminal.

[khad]

Where am I disagreeing with you?


Did NATO actively support it or did they just pretend not to notice? I'm not sure if that's actually covered as a war crime or something else - but I'll be sure to ask the aforementioned lawyer. I'm sure these UN peacekeeper and aid worker penises found themselves in 6 year olds by sheer neglect.

"Oops, didn't see you there. I was looking the other way." :rolleyes:

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-27/world/charity.aidworkers_1_jasmine-whitbread-children-uk-report-abuse?_s=PM:WORLD


Humanitarian aid workers and United Nation peacekeepers are sexually abusing small children in several war-ravaged and food-poor countries, a leading European charity has said.

Children as young as 6 have been forced to have sex with aid workers and peacekeepers in return for food and money, Save the Children UK said in a report released Tuesday.

After interviewing hundreds of children, the charity said it found instances of rape, child prostitution, pornography, indecent sexual assault and trafficking of children for sex.
NATO pretended not to notice the crimes,and they generally never did turn much atention on the 'other side'.Not to mention the current leader of Kosovo is a criminal.
Not only did soldiers and American mercs buy child prostitutes, but they sponsored local crime syndicates and protected them against the law.



This was the single largest case implicating IPTF we had yet documented, and I suggested we conduct a photo lineup. Positive identification of IPTF monitors who were frequenting brothels would send a strong message to mission officials and all IPTF members that these were serious charges.

The next morning, I turned on my computer to find an email from a senior official. The email was sent to me and approximately 120 others, most of whom were American DynCorp monitors. It said there had been a raid on "some houses of ill repute" and that a "few ladies of the evening" had been taken into custody. And: "I have been informed that several descriptions were given of 'American IPTF' monitors... Apparently, photo lineups will be made available to the 'witnesses'."

My head was spinning. Did an officer just leak confidential information on the particulars of a case – to the suspects in the case? They might as well have entitled the email: "Get your alibis in order, everyone!" Shortly after, the case was pulled. Nobody could tell me why. I was livid. Why was I being paid taxpayer dollars to collect evidence I was then forced to suppress? Why should trafficked women risk their lives coming to the IPTF and give us information when we were not going to do anything with it?

That night, I sent an email to about 50 mission personnel. I described how women found themselves trafficked to Bosnia. I offered specific details, telling the story of a woman who was forced to dance naked on a table in a bar. For kicks, the bar owner smashed the light bulb above her head and forced her to hold hot electrical wires while she danced. When this bored him, he yanked her by the hair and raped her. I wrote: "It is time we realise this is serious organised crime, making huge amounts of money."

The next day, another senior figure, deputy commissioner J Michael Stiers, began lobbying to have me removed from my position.

[blake 3:17]

The question of Trotskyism joining in with the imperialist attack on Libya by repeating the hysterical demonising propaganda in readiness for further imperialist intervention is not an Anti-Trotskyist tirade. It is a fact. All your attempts to divert attention away from that fact are pointless and as shameful as the fact itself

Sources?


Joke: What do you get when you put three Trotskyists in a room together?

Two tendencies, three factions and four parties

[Salyut]

I'm sure these UN peacekeeper and aid worker penises found themselves in 6 year olds by sheer neglect.

"Oops, didn't see you there. I was looking the other way." :rolleyes:

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-27/world/charity.aidworkers_1_jasmine-whitbread-children-uk-report-abuse?_s=PM:WORLD

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me. I asked to what extent NATO was aware of the KLA's activities (out of legitimate interest too); not "herp derp raping children is ok".

[Omsk]

Stop ridiculing these horrible and vicious things!
Yes,they knew it all!They helped the KLA for good's sake!And still lost.

[khad]

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me. I asked to what extent NATO was aware of the KLA's activities (out of legitimate interest too); not "herp derp raping children is ok".
Of course they were. The KLA were a mafia that had hands on half the heroin flowing into Western Europe. That heroin came all the way from the opium in Afghanistan, an industry that the CIA sponsored. The CIA ran a drug train from latin America to the US, and they ran one from Asia to Europe. Groups like the KLA and PKK were known clients. They knew full well the criminal nature of these groups they were sponsoring.

[blake 3:17]

All the more reason to end the War On Drugs.

[khad]

All the more reason to end the War On Drugs.
Which this thread isn't about, but thanks for your input.

I would have much less of a problem with war crimes prosecutions if the proponents of the ICC simply admitted that they are hypocrites handing out politically motivated sentences.

I would be fine with that, because at least then we wouldn't have to put up with this fiction that they speak for everyone.

[Salyut]

Stop ridiculing these horrible and vicious things!
Yes,they knew it all!They helped the KLA for good's sake!And still lost.

You misunderstand. I'm legitimately interested in the things Khad is sharing - I knew about DynCorp but the KLA organ smuggling was not a topic I was familiar with. So the obvious solution is...to read about it by asking Khad for sources so I don't have to miss lunch chasing down articles across the internet.

[khad]

You misunderstand. I'm legitimately interested in the things Khad is sharing - I knew about DynCorp but the KLA organ smuggling was not a topic I was familiar with. So the obvious solution is...to read about it by asking Khad for sources so I don't have to miss lunch chasing down articles across the internet.
Oh, you're interested in that, eh?

http://moderntokyotimes.com/2011/02/21/grisly-albanian-organ-harvesting-crimes-is-justice-going-to-be-served/


In my late December essay Amorality of US Kosovo Policy: Friends with the Snake I have published reactions to the Council of Europe (CoE) 27-page report authored by the Swiss-Italian politician, senator and prosecuting lawyer Dick Marty. The report, after his two-year investigation, claimed that the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) thugs headed by the current Kosovo prime minister Hashim Thaci, known as the “Snake,” abducted mostly Kosovo Serbs but also some Albanian so called “collaborators,” transported them to northern Albania, murdered them, extracted their organs like the kidneys, and sold them on the black market. These macabre Nazi/Croatian Nazi style crimes were covered up by the leading international organizations such as the UN, NATO, OSCE as well as the governments of leading western countries. NATO’s secret documents as well as an UN report have been leaked out clearly demonstrating that both of those international organizations had full knowledge of these grisly crimes and opted to cover them up in addition to several western governments, the U.S. and Germany in particular. While a EULEX investigation is being launched, it will focus on the grisly crimes committed by the Snake and his thugs but will not include an investigation of those who enabled these crimes to be covered up for over a decade. In addition, it is doubtful if EULEX is capable of conducting an all-encompassing inquiry. Hence, the most important question needs to be posed: Is the justice going to be served.

NATO’s Secret Documents
The CoE report is further supported by NATO’s secret documents tagged “USA-KFOR,” which were leaked to the British The Guardian and published the day the CoE debated the Marti report. According to the papers, the Snake has been identified as one of the “biggest fish” of organized crime in Kosovo. He was the head of a “mafia-like” network responsible for smuggling weapons, drugs and human organs during and after the 1998-99 Kosovo war. Xhavit Halili, member of the Drenica gang, former KLA logistics head and a high level official in Thaci’s party is identified for the same crimes as Thaci. Halili, described as “the power behind Hashim Thaci,” and Thaci’s chief “political and financial adviser,” carries a Czech 9mm pistol. He is also implicated in two murders in Albania including that of the young Tirana journalist Ali Uke, who shared an apartment with Thaci.

It has become more than obvious that that the 2008 irresponsible push to recognize Kosovo’s independence came against a background of full awareness of Snake’s and his thugs criminal track records. Nonetheless, the western powers preferred to turn a blind eye to Kosovo reality and what was originating from Kosovo.


Some more articles:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/14/illegal-organ-removals-charges-kosovo
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/new-details-emerge-in-kosovo-organ-trafficking-case

[Salyut]

I would have much less of a problem with war crimes prosecutions if the proponents of the ICC simply admitted that they are hypocrites handing out politically motivated sentences.

They are hypocrites. The problem I'm running into is if someone committed war crimes (as defined by international law), and was convicted, is the sentence legitimate regardless of the ICC's selective prosecution?


Oh, you're interested in that, eh?

Yes. I wasn't defending NATO/Dyncorp/etc. I should have worded my post better (brain shuts down when hungry).

[Sir Comradical]

Yes. Mass war rape combined with concentration camps.



You'd have a problem if the Libyans put him up against the wall? :confused:

Who are "the Libyans"? Look at the conflict now and tell me it isn't a bourgeois faction fight? The Libyan Army split and its defectors now form an opposition movement that huddles under the flag of the old monarchy. Russia still continues to support Gaddafi while the United States contemplates intervening on behalf of the opposition. Ideally yes, the Libyan working class should rise together and overthrow Gaddafi, but in reality you'd just be supporting one bourgeois faction against another.

[Threetune]

Sources?

Just read Weekly Worker and Workers Power and any of the numerous contributions to the debates on Revleft.

[Threetune]

I think it is the duty of all sincere anti-imperialist, anti-oppression, anti-authoritarian Trotskyists, to gather together the evidence that they have posted on Revleft against the Gaddafi government and present that evidence to the Court of Human Rights, or the UN or the USA.