A word on Canadian Imperialism

[Urban Rubble]

Just to show Felicia that Canada DID help in Iraq.




War and Imperialism, Canadian Style

By David McNally



National myths die hard. And few Canadian myths are more entrenched than the notion of this country as a peacekeeper, free from the militarism and imperialism of the US. Yet this image is a wild fantasy that obscures some ugly truths. Take Canadian participation in the war on Iraq, for instance. While many in Canada believed that this country’s armed forces were not part of the war, the reality was different. Twenty-five military planners from Canada were active members of the US military’s central command (CENTCOM) in Qatar, the body that planned and oversaw the assault on Iraq. About 1300 military personnel on three Canadian warships provided protection for US aircraft carriers from which much of the air war was launched. Canada also had 31 troops inside Iraq working with US and British forces, including ten Canadian pilots who participated in the aerial bombing of Iraq. On top of all this, the Canadian government allowed US aircraft bound for the Persian Gulf to refuel and change crews in Newfoundland. So, however questionable his motives, when US ambassador Paul Cellucci claimed that Canada was offering more support to the war in Iraq than all but three or four nations, he was right. In addition to this direct military involvement, Canadian business is a major producer of equipment for the US war machine. Canadian firms export almost $3 billion worth of military hardware to the US every year. Canadian-built simulators, flight management systems, data networks and computer equipment guided US helicopters, stealth bombers, fighter jets, armoured vehicles and ships used in the attack on Iraq. Not surprisingly, Canada’s business elite came out loudly in favour of the war. This is not because the Canadian business class is a mere puppet of US capitalists, as some commentators suggest. On the contrary, the business class in Canada represents a powerful and well-organized section of international capitalism which profits from imperialist undertakings of its own.

CANADIAN IMPERIALISM

While Talisman Energy of Calgary is the Canadian company that has gained the most notoriety in recent years (for its ties to a government that tolerated slavery and used terror against civilians), it is far from an isolated case. Earlier this year, for instance, a UN panel charged that eight Canadian mining companies are violating international standards in their business activities in the Congo, where three million people have died in civil wars. These charges come on top of repeated claims that Canadian mining firms operating in Tanzania authorized mass killings of miners.

As these reports make clear, mining companies from Canada are exploiting cheap labour, working with corrupt governments, and turning a blind eye to (if not participating in) terror against civilians in parts of Africa—the very sorts of charges raised against the world’s most rapacious corporations. And these mining companies are far from the only Canadian-based firms exploiting abundant resources, oppressed workers and shady arrangements with governments in the Third World.

We should not be surprised that Third World critics are pointing fingers at Canadian companies since Canada is home to scores of multinational corporations in telecommunications, aluminum, forestry, energy, shoes, rubber, and more. In addition, Canadian-based banks operate extensively in global markets, not least in the Caribbean where they are often among the dominant foreign financial institutions. This is especially true of the Royal Bank of Canada whose roots in the West Indies go back to 1882.

Rather than a small, dependent economy, Canada is a component part of the capitalistically developed world and home to major-league banks and corporations. As the author of a major study of global firms in Canada put it, “Canadian multinationals are not third-rate imitators, but are often at or near the top of their respective industries.” And these corporations are as exploitative and imperialist as can be.

Some Canadian nationalists argue that businesses in this country are in danger of being completely absorbed by US capital, but the facts tell a different story. In fact, Canadian capitalists are also major players in the world of foreign investment and global takeovers. If anything, they have become more significant actors in the world economy.

Between 1994 and 2001, for example, 384 more US businesses were bought up by Canadian corporations than the number of Canadian businesses that US companies managed to purchase. Judged in dollar amounts, Canadian capitalists spent $46 billion more purchasing US businesses than did the latter buying firms in this country. As a result, Canadian corporations have strengthened their presence in the front ranks of global business. In the early 1990s, for instance, the foreign assets of Canadian companies were equal to 23 percent of this country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). By 2001, foreign holdings by Canadian businesses had rocketed to 54 percent of GDP. As a result, since 2000 Canadian capitalism has run a “dividend surplus”— meaning that dividend flows into Canada derived from foreign holdings exceed dividend income flowing out of Canada—to the tune of $3.5 billion.

THIRD WORLD OPPOSITION

It should come as no surprise, then, that Canadian-based corporations have often been targets of opposition in the Third World. Most recently, Talisman Energy has been the focus of a worldwide campaign which ultimately forced it to sell off its operations in Sudan. But Talisman is far from an isolated case. One of the most celebrated cases of Third World opposition to Canadian capital took place in Trinidad in 1970.

Events there began in 1968-69 when black students at Sir George Williams University in Montreal (now Concordia U) began protesting racism at the school. When administrators failed to address their demands, the students occupied the university’s computer center. Rather than negotiate, the administration called in riot police. Of the 97 arrested protesters, ten were students from Trinidad.

As Montreal trials against the protesters opened in early 1970, protests broke out in Trinidad directed at both the Canadian High Commission and the main branch of the Royal Bank of Canada. When the Montreal students were convicted, further demonstrations were organized. The 700-strong Trinidad Regiment mutinied rather than repress the movement.

Like protesters in Africa today, those who took to the streets of Trinidad in 1970 were pointing directly at the racism and imperialism upon which Canadian capitalism has been built. While much of this legacy involves the colonization of indigenous peoples and the conquest of the people of New France (later Québec), we should never forget the international imperialist operations of Canadian corporations.

ANTI-IMPERIALISM

In sum, Canadian capital is an important player within the structures of world capitalism. True, Canadian business is not in the same league as US corporate power (and the war machine on which it can rely). But no other nationally-based capitalist class matches the US’s at the moment. This does not prevent the ruling classes of France, Britain, Germany, Japan, Italy, Belgium and Canada from having their own distinct interests, which they pursue globally. All of these countries, including Canada, are home to major multinational corporations and banks that form a significant part of world imperialism and are complicit in the racism that sustains it.

So, when anti-war activists and others embrace anti-imperialism, they should not equate it simply with opposition to the American empire, crucial as that is. Consistent anti-imperialism means opposition to the exploitative practices of all multinational corporations and banks and the governments and armies that protect them. Where Canada is concerned, anti-imperialism begins at home.



David McNally is a member of the New Socialist Group.

[Jesus Christ]

HAHAHAHA, i almost fell out of my seat when i read the words Canadian Imperialism
im sorry
lololol :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Urban Rubble]

O.K, so you're one of those misguided individuals that think Canada is not Imperialistic. So how do you justify Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan ?

I mean, the start of this article layed out in very basic terms the role Canada played in Iraq. Their role was a substantial one.

Did you even read the article or are baseless witty replies your specialty ?

[Invader Zim]

Tell me UR, why do you want to argue this with felicia, we all know what will happen, why invite a flame fest?..? As for your arguments, I dont have a clue if Canada is imperialistic or not.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:11 PM
HAHAHAHA, i almost fell out of my seat when i read the words Canadian Imperialism
im sorry
lololol :lol: :lol: :lol:
HAHAHAH ME TOO!

BAHAHA

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:19 PM
Tell me UR, why do you want to argue this with felicia, we all know what will happen, why invite a flame fest?..? As for your arguments, I dont have a clue if Canada is imperialistic or not.
yeah really!

hahaha


he just said in another thread that he wanted one last response from me and this would be over!!!

bahaaaaaaaaaahhahahahha

fuck, someone pinch me, I think I'm dreaming! :lol:

[chamo]

Ach, piss off. It's obvious you're trying to instigate a flaming thread.


fuck, someone pinch me, I think I'm dreaming!

I feel like punching someone...

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:31 PM
Ach, piss off. It's obvious you're trying to instigate a flaming thread.


fuck, someone pinch me, I think I'm dreaming!

I feel like punching someone...
me too :D

But as you can all see. I'm fine and calm about this. I insist that this thread will not have me arguing, only laughing :lol:

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It's a good article and raises some valid points, however, this is all I will say, as I do not wish to be attacked by felicia for saying something negative about Canada, even if it has to do with my anti-capitalist, anti-imperilaist, and anti-bourgeois sentiments. It's obvious that you're trying to irritate Felicia. Does it really belong in Chit Chat? Oh... I almost forgot that this is a flame thread. So I guess Chit Chat is quite appropriate.

[hawarameen]

this doesnt belong anywere, if it was meant to be a political discusion it shouldnt be in chit-chat

[Urban Rubble]

What the fuck ? So I guess intelligent debate is no longer accepted at Che Lives. So let me get this straight, it's O.K for someone to start a thread entitled "How dumb are yanks" but this thread is somehow innapropriate ? Wow, I must be living in fucking bizarro world.

The reason I started this thread is simple, alot of people on here seem to think that Canada has never been Imperialist. It's obvious that they are not nearly as Imperialistic as the U.S, but to say Canada has never been involved in Imperialism is sheer idiocy.

I am not trying to start a "flame thread'.

Enigma: I just wanted a debate, I don't get why you see it as a flame thread. I have not said a fucking word to instigate anything.

HappyGuy: Dude, go eat a bowl of dicks. Scolding me for starting a flame thread while telling me to piss off makes no sense.

I have to point this out, you guys can sit here and laugh at the notion that Canada is Imperialist, but not one of you have been able to refute the points in the article. It plainly shows that Canada helped the U.S a great deal in the invasion of Iraq, therefore, anyone who claims Canda is not Imperialistic is completely fucking wrong.

[Sasafrás]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 12 2003, 05:01 PM
So let me get this straight, it's O.K for someone to start a thread entitled "How dumb are yanks" but this thread is somehow innapropriate ? Wow, I must be living in fucking bizarro world.

I agree with you 100000000000%. People tend to take certain stereotypes and accept them and act as if they're okay, but as soon as you go contra another one, people start telling you to get bent and shove it. Totally hypocritical.

[hawarameen]

i dont know about anyone else but you've missunderstood me at least, this thread should not be in chit-chat, it is not off-topic/non-serious stuff. its about politics.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I'm glad you posted this, comarde, i enjoyed the article, but if you were looking for a serious discussion, why did you put in Chit Chat?? This suggests taht you may be looking for a flame war, eh? :unsure: I think so.

[Urban Rubble]

Honestly, I wasn't really thinking about it. I just posted it in the forum I was in. I did want Felicia's comment on it though, and we all know she never ventures outside of Chit Chat.

Anyway, I'm not looking for a flame war. I'm looking for an answer to this question: How can people claim that Canada is not Imperialistic despite evidence that says the total opposite?

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Sasafrás+Sep 12 2003, 08:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sasafrás @ Sep 12 2003, 08:06 PM)
Urban [email protected] 12 2003, 05:01 PM
So let me get this straight, it&#39;s O.K for someone to start a thread entitled "How dumb are yanks" but this thread is somehow innapropriate ? Wow, I must be living in fucking bizarro world.

I agree with you 100000000000%. People tend to take certain stereotypes and accept them and act as if they&#39;re okay, but as soon as you go contra another one, people start telling you to get bent and shove it. Totally hypocritical. [/b]
If rubble wants debate, shouldn&#39;t he be putting this thread in the appropriate forum? hmm? politics?

the "how dumb are the yanks" was about a political satire show, christ.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 08:20 PM
I&#39;m glad you posted this, comarde, i enjoyed the article, but if you were looking for a serious discussion, why did you put in Chit Chat?? This suggests taht you may be looking for a flame war, eh? :unsure: I think so.
yes, that&#39;s exactly what he&#39;s looking for. How sad

[Sasafrás]

Originally posted by felicia+Sep 12 2003, 05:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (felicia @ Sep 12 2003, 05:27 PM)
Originally posted by Sasafrá[email protected] 12 2003, 08:06 PM

Urban [email protected] 12 2003, 05:01 PM
So let me get this straight, it&#39;s O.K for someone to start a thread entitled "How dumb are yanks" but this thread is somehow innapropriate ? Wow, I must be living in fucking bizarro world.

I agree with you 100000000000%. People tend to take certain stereotypes and accept them and act as if they&#39;re okay, but as soon as you go contra another one, people start telling you to get bent and shove it. Totally hypocritical.
If rubble wants debate, shouldn&#39;t he be putting this thread in the appropriate forum? hmm? politics?

the "how dumb are the yanks" was about a political satire show, christ. [/b]
He could have come up with a less offensive title of the thread.. Or something. I mean, I&#39;m a "yank" as are lots of other people here, so, you know, referring to Americans as being dumb can be pretty hurtful. It would be like my posting a thread called "Aren&#39;t the Brits asshats?" and then posting some joke about British people. It&#39;s totally inconsiderate. I just think people should remember that what they say can be pretty mean. Seriously.

~ Sassy

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Sasafrás+Sep 12 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sasafrás @ Sep 12 2003, 08:39 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Sasafrá[email protected] 12 2003, 08:06 PM

Urban [email protected] 12 2003, 05:01 PM
So let me get this straight, it&#39;s O.K for someone to start a thread entitled "How dumb are yanks" but this thread is somehow innapropriate ? Wow, I must be living in fucking bizarro world.

I agree with you 100000000000%. People tend to take certain stereotypes and accept them and act as if they&#39;re okay, but as soon as you go contra another one, people start telling you to get bent and shove it. Totally hypocritical.
If rubble wants debate, shouldn&#39;t he be putting this thread in the appropriate forum? hmm? politics?

the "how dumb are the yanks" was about a political satire show, christ.
He could have come up with a less offensive title of the thread.. Or something. I mean, I&#39;m a "yank" as are lots of other people here, so, you know, referring to Americans as being dumb can be pretty hurtful. It would be like my posting a thread called "Aren&#39;t the Brits asshats?" and then posting some joke about British people. It&#39;s totally inconsiderate. I just think people should remember that what they say can be pretty mean. Seriously.

~ Sassy [/b]
yeah, I know

But it&#39;s not the title that&#39;s of issue here, it&#39;s the content.

But it&#39;s funny how it was a canadian talking about canadian imperialism... and not an american talking about canada ;) .......haha :lol:

[Urban Rubble]

18 posts and still no one has bothered to refute the points in the article. Fucking pathetic. Amazing really. You guys can ***** and moan when we say Canada is Imperialist, but you can&#39;t answer a simple point.

If Canada is not Imperialistic, refute the points. Tell me why the author was wrong in saying the Canadians helped with Iraq.

Also, I wasn&#39;t trying to start a flame war. I already said I wasn&#39;t thinking when I posted it, so please Oh mighty Felicia, move the shit. I don&#39;t gie a fuck.

SHOW ME WHY CANDA ISN&#39;T IMPERIALIST.


"But it&#39;s funny how it was a canadian talking about canadian imperialism... and not an american talking about canada "

I spefically found an article written by a Candian so you couldn&#39;t say it was a stupid American that wrote it. If the author is Canadian and he is critisizing Canada, doesn&#39;t that add some credibilty ?

[(*]

I don&#39;t think "Imperialism" is the right term to use.


However, Canada is far from being innocent. Politicians have a way of talking out of both sides of their mouths as they try to appease all sides of an issue.

[Jesus Christ]

NONONONONONONO
im not disagreeing with anyone on canadian imperialism, but im not agreeing either
theyre just two words that you dont hear every day lol

[Eastside Revolt]

UR, frankly you shouldn&#39;t have bothered, you&#39;re not going to change her mind about anything.

It is no secret, that the capitalist classes in EVERY COUNTRY INCLUDING CANADA engage in Imperialism.

When people start poppin-off about "how dumb the yanks are", it is because the culture coming out of America is ignorant to this with every fibre of it&#39;s being.

[Felicia]

haha :lol:

I don&#39;t see why I&#39;m the one Urban wants to refute this, hahaha.

You don&#39;t want debate, you want to flame with me.


I&#39;m moving this topic to Politics, that&#39;s where this thread belongs, I think everyone will agree.

[caliban]

I hate to admit it UB, but you are right. The facts speek for themselves. However, like the US, we have a total fuck up at the wheel and the ignorant masses remain ignorant. One way l guess it could be put is that we stopped listening to the guys at the wheel long ago when corruption in Canadian politics reached a new "low". Most Canadians are very distrustfull of our government because of blatant missmanagement and bending over to US protectionism. Again most Canadians just don&#39;t pay attention to what is going on in their own country let alone around the world. Once again, thanks UB for pointing those things out. It&#39;s long passed the point of being complacent and quickly approaching blind obedience(sp) for the people of Canada. Wake up. Sorry F, but as a proud Canadian l realize that l cling to memories of prouder days when as a nation we proved our worth with action and not inaction. Now, ignorance is not bliss, our hands are dirty and hiding them behind our back is not working anymore.

[Urban Rubble]

Thanks, I know that was hard. =)

Felicia, I&#39;ve said 3 times that I want to deabte this, not flame. I said I wanted everyone to answer, but yes, I especially want you to. The reason being is that you have said time and time again that there is nothing Imperialistic about Canada. I know that there is.

Please, why don&#39;t you just answer the post ? I just think that if someone is a rational human being that holds a belief, they should be able to defend it. I&#39;m trying to be polite as I can because I honestly don&#39;t want to start "flaming". I just want you to defend the position that you have held all along.

[caliban]

I think it shows that l am new to this kind of thing and l DO NOT mind being corrected or set stait, that is why i&#39;m here. I don&#39;t really know where l sit on the political scale of things and for the sake of saving space l won&#39;t list them all. I do realize that Canada is not perfect but the constant "Canada is just another US state" thing is what l hate. I will try not to drag that arguement on and on but forgive me if it creeps in from time to time.
What do you think of the belief that a lot of Canadians hold that we are basicly a socialist country with invading capitalism? I guess you could say that that is what l believe.

[Urban Rubble]

That&#39;s cool man, I pretty much agree. I have never said Canada is a U.S sattelite. I think that just comes from us being so close together and how similair our cultures are. Some people forget that.

One thing though.

"What do you think of the belief that a lot of Canadians hold that we are basicly a socialist country with invading capitalism?"

Basically, Canada is a Capitalist nation with Socialist tendencies. Alot of people say the same of the U.S, however, Canada is FAR more Socialist oriented that the U.S. At their core, they are Capitalists, but they do have some Socialist (liberal) policies.

[Felicia]

and add to the fact that the majority of the population (atleast 60%, it&#39;s 64-66 % in my province) are liberal or left.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 11:24 PM
I think it shows that l am new to this kind of thing and l DO NOT mind being corrected or set stait, that is why i&#39;m here.
ok, but just remember not to take the first opinion you hear from a leftist and make it your own. That&#39;s a big mistake. Thinking what you want to is one thing, but taking on an opinion because it&#39;s the one presented to you at the moment is wrong.

[caliban]

I&#39;m a bluenoser myself and l remember very well the old rule in NS....it&#39;s not but who you know. In a system like that you have the haves and the have nots. Many people that don&#39;t come from affluent families struggle. Maybe i&#39;m too much of an idiologist but good people fall through the cracks that way. :(

[Urban Rubble]

Still not going to answer the post Felicia ?

[Vinny Rafarino]

I have never said Canada is a U.S sattelite


I will then,


Canada like Europe and every other capitalist nation is a US sattelite.


What&#39;s all this fuss over Canada anyhow eh? They are well trained yippy-ankle-biting yanqui lap-dogs just like every other swarmy capitalist nation. Good grief people, get some focus here.

[Severian]

There&#39;s no two ways about it. Canada is a minor imperialist power. A junior partner of U.S. imperialism.

This is especially undeniable for anyone who&#39;s familiar with Lenin&#39;s pamphlet Imperialism, and how he defines the term.

"Satellite" could be misleading. Canada is not in the same category as Washington&#39;s puppets and client states in the Third World, I think. Canada&#39;s ruling class works with Washington because that&#39;s its best chance of advancing its own interests. And when their interests conflict, on various trade issues, Ottawa promotes its own interests against Washington.

It&#39;s a weaker imperialist predator than Washington, of course. But that doesn&#39;t make it any more virtuous. A jackal is not more virtuous than a lion.

Now, what&#39;s up with Canadian leftists that many of them don&#39;t want to acknowledge this?

Well, nothing special really. People on the left can be infected by nationalism, and have been, in many countries. Leftists in the U.S., for example, often have problems along these lines. Comes out in the reasons given for opposition to NAFTA and the WTO, for example: "American" jobs being sent to Mexico and other countries.

I think, however, that nobody on the far-left in the U.S. would be quite as blantantly nationalistic and chauvinistic as we see in Canada, and some of the other minor imperialist powers. France, for example.

This is not a new problem. Someone who visited Nicaragua during the 80s told me about one of the revolutionary anniversary celebrations there, where the Canadian contingent marched behind a maple-leaf flag, singing "Oh Canada." I think Nicaragua solidarity activists from the U.S., whatever their political problems, would have had better sense than to do the equivalent - march through Managua behind the Stars and Stripes.

So I guess there is some benefit in living in the country that&#39;s most obviously the world&#39;s arsenal of counterrevolution. Heck, Russia fit tht description at one time the biggest center of counterrat one time, y&#39;know, and it was also the first to have a victorious workers&#39; revolution. Sometimes the first shall be last and the last shall be first....

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 03:51 AM
I&#39;m a bluenoser myself and l remember very well the old rule in NS....it&#39;s not but who you know. In a system like that you have the haves and the have nots. Many people that don&#39;t come from affluent families struggle. Maybe i&#39;m too much of an idiologist but good people fall through the cracks that way. :(
I&#39;M A BLUENOSER TOO&#33;&#33;&#33; Gotta love that scooner&#33;

WHERE YOU FROM&#33;&#33;??

Me: Kings County&#33;

I&#39;m hoping that you&#39;re Nova Scotian&#33; Otherwise, I&#39;m still the only one here&#33; :lol: :( :( :(

*EDIT*

I&#39;ll add some more substance to this post, lol.

Yeah, I know what you mean. NS is often referred to as the "welfare province" which isn&#39;t fair.

Nova Scotians work hard, very hard for what they have, we&#39;ve always done it that way. But now, with the tories, there&#39;s just no way to get over the "gap."

Personally, I voted NDP in th last election (are you old enough to vote?). They have a better platform than the libs or tories, and they care more about individual rights and poverty than other parties.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2003, 05:02 AM
Still not going to answer the post Felicia ?
answer to what post? This thread?

Who said I was going to respond to this thread. Like you said already. You didn&#39;t post this to start a flame war, you wanted to debate with people. So go debate&#33;

What the fuck is your problem??&#33;&#33;


COMRADE RAF

What&#39;s all this fuss over Canada anyhow eh
He&#39;s trying deliberately to start a flame war with me, only I&#39;m not buying into it :lol:

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 03:54 AM
and add to the fact that the majority of the population (atleast 60%, it&#39;s 64-66 % in my province) are liberal or left.
I don&#39;t want to get into a huge argument about this, but the Liberals are really a centre party these days. The NDP is left and they are supported by less than 20% of the population.

In terms of the general debate, I think it is fair to say that Canada has taken some imperialist actions at times. Not all our leaders have been very good; indeed some (like Mulroney) were apalling and were right wingers. This is no direct reflections upon all Canadians, just like it is wrong to condemn all &#39;yanks&#39; as &#39;stupid&#39; just because Bush is a first class moron. Equally I think it is important to realise that Canada has at times stood up against imperialism, like when it supported the Sandinistas.

The other thing to aknowledge is that although Canada is far more left leaning than the US (particularly at present), it is not really very socialist. There are many countries with better social services, such as Norway, Sweden and Germany.

[Invader Zim]

Enigma: I just wanted a debate, I don&#39;t get why you see it as a flame thread. I have not said a fucking word to instigate anything.

Yes, that may be the case, but I am speeking from experiance of what happened last time...

[Urban Rubble]

I know, it seems to happend rather easily. I just think it&#39;s funny, before, there were like 5 Canadians saying that Canada has NEVER done anything Imperialistic, and when I put forth evidence that they have, not ONE person can put forth a rational debate. I mean, if they aren&#39;t, put forth your evidence.

Felicia, I&#39;m not trying to fight you. Do you deny that you said this "Canada is not an Imperialist nation, we helped in Afgahnistan because the people felt thereatened, we did not help in Iraq". You said it, and this article shows that you were wrong. I just think that if you say something, you should be able to back it up.

No "flaming" about it, you (and many others) have made a claim, I would like you to back it up.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Uhuru na Umoja+Sep 13 2003, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Uhuru na Umoja @ Sep 13 2003, 10:34 AM)
[email protected] 13 2003, 03:54 AM
and add to the fact that the majority of the population (atleast 60%, it&#39;s 64-66 % in my province) are liberal or left.
I don&#39;t want to get into a huge argument about this, but the Liberals are really a centre party these days. The NDP is left and they are supported by less than 20% of the population.

In terms of the general debate, I think it is fair to say that Canada has taken some imperialist actions at times. Not all our leaders have been very good; indeed some (like Mulroney) were apalling and were right wingers. This is no direct reflections upon all Canadians, just like it is wrong to condemn all &#39;yanks&#39; as &#39;stupid&#39; just because Bush is a first class moron. Equally I think it is important to realise that Canada has at times stood up against imperialism, like when it supported the Sandinistas.

The other thing to aknowledge is that although Canada is far more left leaning than the US (particularly at present), it is not really very socialist. There are many countries with better social services, such as Norway, Sweden and Germany. [/b]
in NS, the NDP have 32% popularity. The Liberals have 32% popularity. That leaves the conservatives with a minority as far as popularity goes, but because their support is concentrated in clumps, they get more seats.
But this year, they have a minority government, bahaha, the the NDP is the official opposition :lol:

rubble

Felicia, I&#39;m not trying to fight you. Do you deny that you said this "Canada is not an Imperialist nation, we helped in Afgahnistan because the people felt thereatened, we did not help in Iraq". You said it, and this article shows that you were wrong. I just think that if you say something, you should be able to back it up.

No, I doubt that&#39;s how I said it. I&#39;ve said that canada helped in afghanistan to fight this "terrorism" thing. The WTC was just bombed and we couldn&#39;t do nothing. The war, in that case, was seemingly justified. As for Iraq, I&#39;ve said that our government didn&#39;t put people in there. Canadian military students have exchange programs in the US, and vice versa. Therefore, inadvertantly, a few canadians were in iraq. They had technical jobs or something, to my knowledge, they didn&#39;t fight. However, when Iraqi&#39;s (from the military I assue) were brought into canadian custody, due to the war ships in the vacinity due to their deployment to afghanistan, canada refused to hand them over to the states when requested by the US government/military .

If canada was "imperialistic" we would be getting something out of what we participate in. Seriously. We didn&#39;t get anything out of afganistan except 4 dead men. We&#39;re in Iraq now doing peacekeeping work and trying to manage the mess that country was left in due to a war that canada did not support in the first place. But yet we&#39;ve committed OUR CITIZENS to aid in the aftermath. I hardly see that as imperialistic. We have the means to help others, and we choose to do so.

If you&#39;re trying to say that canada is in it for some kind of "oil" payout, I very much doubt that it&#39;s true. Alberta ALONE has enough oil to fuel Canada for the next 300 YEARS&#33;

[caliban]

I guess it would be easier to say(for a Canadian) that the trouble erupted when the Canadians were on the NATO tour and we just went along as part of the rotation. Easy to say but hard to swallow. It even sounds like bull shit. Being from Halifax, home of the Atlantic fleet, l know how long Canadian ships have been in the gulf acting as a picket, that we sent PPCLI to Afghanistan and the "new" recce vehicles to Iraq and most down play the roll we played. But involvement means that you were there and helped. Another glowing moment of our government sitting on the fence.
Most Canadians tollerate Americans because we have been "friends" for so long, but we can be far worse than they are sometimes. Again most Canadians stick their heads in the sand and believe what they want to believe, that we are on some sort of moral high ground and that we just aren&#39;t like that. Every bio and chem agent in the Nato or US stockpile was tested at Suffield(sp) Alberta, the cruise missles were tested in the NWT, and Agent Orange was tested at a place called Hibernia Ridge in New Brunswick(was there, nothing but grass grows to this day). So like l said we TRY to take the moral high ground but we benefited from the testing and had our own stockpile(mostly at the bottom of the Grand Banks now). It is a hard pill to swallow.
RAF, have you ever heard the old saying "you catch more flies with honey than with shit"? you seem to know what you are talking about but the delivery is seriously lacking.

[Felicia]

Well, all I can say is if the US tests that shit in my country, Canada had better kick them the fuck out. Seriously, Canada needs to take a fucking stand against the US, once and for all.

I just found out last night, that my MP is american born and raised&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; WHAT THE FUCK&#33;&#33;??? GO HOME AND BE A POLITICIAN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, damn PC bastard <_<

[caliban]

Remember the problem with one ass leaving Felicia...you run the risk of a bigger one taking their place. In this system they are all assholes looking to fill their pockets at the workers expense. Don&#39;t really know who to vote for anymore, they all want the same thing just wrapped in a new shade of paper and a pretty bow.
now living in Upper Canada Felicia....miss the beach and salt air. Are you near Bridgewater?

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 05:54 PM
Remember the problem with one ass leaving Felicia...you run the risk of a bigger one taking their place. In this system they are all assholes looking to fill their pockets at the workers expense. Don&#39;t really know who to vote for anymore, they all want the same thing just wrapped in a new shade of paper and a pretty bow.
now living in Upper Canada Felicia....miss the beach and salt air. Are you near Bridgewater?
There is no bigger ass than the US, I&#39;m sorry, we&#39;ve been ruled by Britain aswell. The only "Ass" left to rule us is ourselves&#33; :lol:

I&#39;m a short distence from bridgewater&#33; About an hour, give or take.

Upper canada.... that&#39;s quebec yes?.... I&#39;m moving to quebec before the end of october&#33; :lol:

no wait, I think quebec is lower canada, lol, my mistake&#33; They recieved their names from the direction the Niagra River flows in....not latitude, my mistake, lol

[commie kg]

Isn&#39;t it our goal to do away with the concept of "nations" completely? Isn&#39;t is pointless to argue that any capitalist nation isn&#39;t imperialistic? Capitalism is by nature inperialistic, wether it be military or economic imperialism.

So how about we stop sounding like nationalists, and set our sights on destroying capitalism, ALL forms of it. Canadian or Americal, it&#39;s all the same.

Good post, UR.

[Felicia]

yeah, but for a strong communist nation, you need people with strong patriotism in that country. You can&#39;t just have a goal of eliminating nationalities. You need nationalism, in my opinion. If everyone&#39;s an internationalist in a newly "communist" country, I doubt it will go to far.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 08:31 PM
in NS, the NDP have 32% popularity. The Liberals have 32% popularity. That leaves the conservatives with a minority as far as popularity goes, but because their support is concentrated in clumps, they get more seats.
But this year, they have a minority government, bahaha, the the NDP is the official opposition :lol:
Point taken; however, NS is only one province. Remember that across Canada the Alliance is far more significant a political force than the NDP. Besides, lumping them together with the central Liberals gives misleading numbers of &#39;socialists&#39;. Some Liberals are very liberal, but remember that a large portion of the party is also opposing gay marriage. There is a significant minory of quite right wind MPs within the Liberal party.

Across Canada the Liberals sit at something like 40-45% (depending upon the month, the poll, etc.) and the NDP at about 10% - hardly a convincing majority, especially considering the Liberals somewhat questionable credentials.

BTW, good luck to the NDP in NS. There was and NDP government when I was living in BC, but Clarke was a dumbass so they are now massively out of favour.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 10:03 PM
yeah, but for a strong communist nation, you need people with strong patriotism in that country. You can&#39;t just have a goal of eliminating nationalities. You need nationalism, in my opinion. If everyone&#39;s an internationalist in a newly "communist" country, I doubt it will go to far.
Why not merely be a humanist and not a nationalist? Are we not all equal? The problem with nationalism is the implicit (sometimes explicit) suggestion that you country, and hence its people as well, are somehow better than those from other countries. Why should people go about talking about how great their countries are, especially if they are socialists? As far as I&#39;m concerned no country has fully sorted out socialism yet, and hence none really should be bragging. The few that might be able to are those such as Cuba that have come far closer than Canada, which remains a decidedly capitalist nation (albeit with a social concience).

And also if everyone is regionalist in a newly communist country it will split into difference regions and cease to be a single entity.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Uhuru na Umoja+Sep 14 2003, 02:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Uhuru na Umoja @ Sep 14 2003, 02:39 PM)
[email protected] 13 2003, 08:31 PM
in NS, the NDP have 32% popularity. The Liberals have 32% popularity. That leaves the conservatives with a minority as far as popularity goes, but because their support is concentrated in clumps, they get more seats.
But this year, they have a minority government, bahaha, the the NDP is the official opposition :lol:
Point taken; however, NS is only one province. Remember that across Canada the Alliance is far more significant a political force than the NDP. Besides, lumping them together with the central Liberals gives misleading numbers of &#39;socialists&#39;. Some Liberals are very liberal, but remember that a large portion of the party is also opposing gay marriage. There is a significant minory of quite right wind MPs within the Liberal party.

Across Canada the Liberals sit at something like 40-45% (depending upon the month, the poll, etc.) and the NDP at about 10% - hardly a convincing majority, especially considering the Liberals somewhat questionable credentials.

BTW, good luck to the NDP in NS. There was and NDP government when I was living in BC, but Clarke was a dumbass so they are now massively out of favour. [/b]
well. I was speaking of "my province."

However, the liberals have a little over 50-65% popularity in all of canada. The PC sits somewhere around 15% and the NDP is around 13%. I know the percentages don&#39;t add up the greatest, but those are roughly the last percentages I&#39;ve heard.

as for patriotism and humanism...... poeple aren&#39;t the greatest. If they can&#39;t be humanists they have to be something that can support their country.

[Urban Rubble]

"You need nationalism, in my opinion. If everyone&#39;s an internationalist in a newly "communist" country, I doubt it will go to far. "

That is ridiculous. One of the biggest problems in Western civilization is Nationalism. It&#39;s what allows the U.S to take the actions it does, it&#39;s what fueled the Nazi takeover, it is the roots of Imperialism. Fuck Nationalism, it is FAR more dangerous than racism.

[(*]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2003, 08:41 PM
"You need nationalism, in my opinion. If everyone&#39;s an internationalist in a newly "communist" country, I doubt it will go to far. "

That is ridiculous. One of the biggest problems in Western civilization is Nationalism. It&#39;s what allows the U.S to take the actions it does, it&#39;s what fueled the Nazi takeover, it is the roots of Imperialism. Fuck Nationalism, it is FAR more dangerous than racism.
True, and on the same note...Zionism is also a form of nationalism

[Pete]

1. Upper Canada is Ontario not Quebec.

2. Canada supplied weapons to the US for use in Iraq, go to Z-Net for proof I don&#39;t see the need of me pulling up the whole article.

3. Canadians did fight in Iraq, but they did so of their free will. In this way they where like the Canadians and Americans who fought in Spain during the 1930&#39;s, and acted independant of the nation.

4. Humanists, socialists, and communists are just as bad as any capitalist, nationalist, or zionist when they elevate humanity above nature, and pursue a material culture.

5. This thread has very little to do with Imperialism (in the last page), but Canada as a product of British Colonialism and later Imperialism (I am treating the two as different things as you can see) our nation (using a nationalistic phrase, I know) is Imperialist and Colonial in its very founding and thus its nature. Historical examples follow.

a) The Red River in the 1880&#39;s. The Canadian government battled the Metis over the Red River colony (later Manitoba). I don&#39;t have a sound backing here, but it basically was a war of Imperialism.
b) The Boer War. We supported it.
c) World War One. Again.
d) The Aquistion of the West. That land was not always Canada, it came to us and we colonized it, annexed it, and called it home.
e) Newfoundland. Was the vote that allowed this province into the Confederation rigged? Either way the empire expands. (this is 1949 btw)
f) A lot of things regarding the Northern Territories and the Northern Parts of our provinces smack to do with economic imperialism. The logging in Northern Quebec can be seen as imperialist pressures commiting genocide against the Cree who live there. Or in B.C. This is today aswell. What about Ipperwash? Canada is still creating an empire on land recongized as her own by others. We are doing it in a bloody manner as well. Its fucking disgusting.

I guess you guys get the point. I didn&#39;t mention the Grain trade, but I don&#39;t think it fits as well.

Cheers.

[Urban Rubble]

Thanks Pete, good post.

One thing, I don&#39;t think using the term "we" is Nationalistic. I mean, you are Canadian.

[RyeN]

Wow... the words ring true in my ears. Although it is true it gives us a vision for the future. We need to root out the opresion and Imperialism, all be it signifigantly less than any other country i can name, it is still wrong. Take a look at your life and what youve done to help. If you love Canada and what it stands for your list shpuld be long.

[Pete]

"We", in the sense that I used it is very nationalistic. It was used as an exclusionary phrase. I meant "we" Canadians, not we "humans" which directly excluded most members of this board immediately based on where they where born and/or currently reside.

Tell me how is that not nationalistic?

I attacked both of your arguements within mine Rubble. Materialist? Are humans superior? Do you need a lot of production for &#39;advancement?&#39; Those ideas are the legacy of colonialism and imperialism as well. They also need to go.

America is by far worse than Canada in its actions, but Canada often targets people at home for its imperialist moves and has been labeled genocidal by many a countries, only it is never reported. So has America.

This arguement is petty and divisive and takes our eyes from the real problem when we try to qualify who is &#39;worse.&#39; Perhaps you should, instead of arguing about who is the baddest bad guy, recognize that they are both horrible abominations and work to change this.

Until Next Time.

[Felicia]

Petey, Petey, Petey.....

*tisk tisk*

You&#39;re so anti-government :P

You help my side, but not too much :lol:

Ahh, but thanks man :)



One thing, I don&#39;t think using the term "we" is Nationalistic. I mean, you are Canadian.
Of course it is. :D

I say "we" and speak of canadians all the time, you call me a "nationalist bastard" while you tell Pete he isn&#39;t a nationalist because he used the word, but said things that aren&#39;t pro-canadian like I do.

rubble, you&#39;re so full of shit it must hurt.

[IHP]

"I just found out last night, that my MP is american born and raised&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; WHAT THE FUCK&#33;&#33;??? GO HOME AND BE A POLITICIAN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY"

I&#39;m not agreeing with either of you on this petty topic, but Felicia, this is disgusting.

--IHP

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 09:02 AM
"I just found out last night, that my MP is american born and raised&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; WHAT THE FUCK&#33;&#33;??? GO HOME AND BE A POLITICIAN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY"

I&#39;m not agreeing with either of you on this petty topic, but Felicia, this is disgusting.

--IHP
what? He&#39;s american. Born in the US, raised in the US. He moved to canada as AN ADULT. He doesn&#39;t know us, he just wants to benefit from us. It would be different if he moved here as a child or teen and did some growing up with canada. But that&#39;s not the case.

He can go home for all I care. The last thing we need here is importing american conservatives, THANK YOU&#33;

I hate him because he&#39;s conservative, but I hate him more to know he&#39;s american and a canadian politician. I don&#39;t like that. I don&#39;t know how many canadians are in the US SENATE, but I&#39;m guessing that it&#39;s none. It would be different if it was small time politics, but this is our parliament, he ran for leadership of our conservative party............oh, he didn&#39;t win, and good thing too&#33;

[IHP]

You hate him simply because he&#39;s an ex-pat American? I can&#39;t sympathize with you on this.

--IHP

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 09:11 AM
You hate him simply because he&#39;s an ex-pat American? I can&#39;t sympathize with you on this.

--IHP
who says he ex-patriotic?

he&#39;s PC, the PC love the US government.

I&#39;m sure he loves the US too.

Why he came here, I don&#39;t know. I&#39;ll go stop over to his place later and ask him (something we can do here). But I probably won&#39;t, I don&#39;t know his address.


** I was editing the previous above post when you responded.

[IHP]

By ex-pat, I meant expatriate (sorry, this might be an Australian abreviation) as in living in a foreign country.

My issue is not with you saying that you hate conservatives, hell we all do. My problem is that you say importing &#39;American conservatives,&#39; as if it makes a difference where he is originally from. You should hate Canadian conservatives as much.

--IHP

[Pete]

One of the &#39;better&#39; parts of Canadian politics is that it does not matter where you come from, but what you (or your party) can promise...Delivery also means little, but hey this is democracy. It is such a dirty dirty word, that.


Turner was a liberal Prime Minister, but born in England. So what? He was a prime minister. He was a member and supported of a system which put Brain Mulroney at the reigns. Sure he wasn&#39;t as bad. But arguements like that are highly counterproductive and reinforce nationalism even more.

I have good American friends. I have an American prof. It doesn&#39;t make them worse people, it makes them different because the culture is different (don&#39;t say its the same that is bullshit and you know it). Different is good, but anyways I don&#39;t know what my point is right now.

I propose an end to the petty arguements here with this: Canada is Imperialistic. Canda does fight wars for its imperialism, they are only within Canada&#39;s defined boundries (which are mostly arbitrary agreements between the Americans and British to stop wars such as the Alaskan panhandle or the boundry of Maine, 49th Paralell, ect.) and are inherently imperialistic and foster nationalism. Stop arguing which is worse, both are really bad in different ways. Canada is genocidal at home; America, abroad. Do something about it, but stop arguing that displacing and killing Natives is better than displacing and killing Iraqis. That will get NOWHERE&#33;

The suffering intellectual,

Pete.

P.S. Nationalism is the love of a Nation (or a Nation-State), where as the love of the LAND (physical land that is not in the way that Country is usually used) is not necassarily nationalistic. I have a connection to a certain plot of territory, but it is not my nation. It is my home. Home-ism and Nationalism are different. To defend the ideas of ones home (food, shelter, love, water) is different than to defend the ideas of a nationstate (security, division of the people, laws, government).

Your Enviro-Communist

Pete

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 09:37 AM
By ex-pat, I meant expatriate (sorry, this might be an Australian abreviation) as in living in a foreign country.

My issue is not with you saying that you hate conservatives, hell we all do. My problem is that you say importing &#39;American conservatives,&#39; as if it makes a difference where he is originally from. You should hate Canadian conservatives as much.

--IHP
I know. I hate canadian conservatives too.

I hated my MP before I knew he was american. Now I just hate him more because he&#39;s not a native of my country.

Call it my personal ignorance, I don&#39;t care.

Pete

Yeah, but you&#39;re a little different and you know that :lol:

[caliban]

Waaait one second F, what do you mean by not liking him more because he&#39;s from another country? Remember, the famous Canadian company Roots was started by 2 draft dodgers from the US. Sorry, but not a very "Canadian" thing to say. I know l don&#39;t care much for the American government, but the people(although somewhat blinded) or very welcome here. ALL people are. Please explain. <_<

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 05:38 PM
Waaait one second F, what do you mean by not liking him more because he&#39;s from another country? Remember, the famous Canadian company Roots was started by 2 draft dodgers from the US. Sorry, but not a very "Canadian" thing to say. I know l don&#39;t care much for the American government, but the people(although somewhat blinded) or very welcome here. ALL people are. Please explain. <_<
I know that roots was founded my 2 americans. They saw an opportunity to cash in on canadian patriotism. That pisses me off.


I don&#39;t like the guy because he&#39;s from another country. The fact that it&#39;s the US is just the icing on the cake

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 04:03 AM
3. Canadians did fight in Iraq, but they did so of their free will. In this way they where like the Canadians and Americans who fought in Spain during the 1930&#39;s, and acted independant of the nation.
What? They were soldiers of the Canadian armed forces, and could not fight anywhere that Ottawa didn&#39;t want them to.

How about the Canadian warships in the Gulf, did they go there "of their own free will" too?

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Severian+Sep 15 2003, 05:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Severian @ Sep 15 2003, 05:52 PM)
[email protected] 15 2003, 04:03 AM
3. Canadians did fight in Iraq, but they did so of their free will. In this way they where like the Canadians and Americans who fought in Spain during the 1930&#39;s, and acted independant of the nation.
What? They were soldiers of the Canadian armed forces, and could not fight anywhere that Ottawa didn&#39;t want them to.

How about the Canadian warships in the Gulf, did they go there "of their own free will" too? [/b]
NATIVE AND ABORIGINAL PEOPLES HAVE DUEL CITIZENSHIP IN CANADA AND THE US

They can fight for either country regardless of the one they were born in. THAT&#39;S most likely the people that Pete was referring to.

[Urban Rubble]

"This arguement is petty and divisive and takes our eyes from the real problem when we try to qualify who is &#39;worse.&#39; Perhaps you should, instead of arguing about who is the baddest bad guy, recognize that they are both horrible abominations and work to change this. "

Pete, forgive me if this comes of as rude or antogonistic, it is not intended that way. This paragraph kind of made me wonder if you have read my posts on this thread and the other ones of the same nature. I have never tried to argue who is "the baddest bad guy" or who is worse. The reason I started this is because more than a few members on this board have attacked me for saying that Canada is Imperialistic. Another reason was because Felicia specifically said that Canada had NO part in Iraq, and that they were NEVER Imperialistic. People around here think that Canada is some perfect angel of a country when in fact it is not all that different from most Capitalist nations. I felt the need to set the record straight and make the point that as Socialists we should be opposed to ALL Capitalist nations. Nationalism has no place within Socialism. I have never tried to distinguish what is worse. I do not see how this is petty.

Also, I realized your post was against both Felicia and me. I still thought it was a good post that added to the discussion.

"I say "we" and speak of canadians all the time, you call me a "nationalist bastard" while you tell Pete he isn&#39;t a nationalist because he used the word, but said things that aren&#39;t pro-canadian like I do.

rubble, you&#39;re so full of shit it must hurt. "

Your ability to miss the point so completely continues to amaze me. I have NEVER called you a nationalist for using "we". If I have, show me where, if you can&#39;t, admit you were wrong (of course I know that you would never do that). I haven&#39;t called you nationalist because of that, I call you nationalist first of all, because you yourself admit that you are. I call you nationalist because you constantly put Canadians above others (mostly Americans). I call you nationalist because you fit the exact description of one, and you admit it. You missed the point, once again. Oh, and as far as me being full of shit, you&#39;re so fucking petty. I have not made one "flame" towards you in many posts, this just goes to show that while you attack me for wanting to flame, you are the one who keeps doing it.

"I propose an end to the petty arguements here with this: Canada is Imperialistic. Canda does fight wars for its imperialism, they are only within Canada&#39;s defined boundries (which are mostly arbitrary agreements between the Americans and British to stop wars such as the Alaskan panhandle or the boundry of Maine, 49th Paralell, ect.)"

Sorry Pete, you&#39;re wrong on this one. Yes, most of the time it is within their boundries, but not always.

" Now I just hate him more because he&#39;s not a native of my country."

God. I cannot believe you haven&#39;t been caged yet. How can you say that ? How do you live with yourself with these views. HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A SOCIALIST ? This goes against EVERYTHING Marx Engels and Lenin EVER said. This is dead wrong Felicia. God, I guess when you say you are a Nationalist and a Socialist you really mean "National Socialist".

[Felicia]

Another reason was because Felicia specifically said that Canada had NO part in Iraq,I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT&#33;

Stop manipulating things to put them in your favour&#33;

WTF??? GO READ THAT THREAD IN CHIT CHAT THAT YOU&#39;RE SO KEEN ON KEEPING GOING.


" Now I just hate him more because he&#39;s not a native of my country."

God. I cannot believe you haven&#39;t been caged yet. How can you say that ? How do you live with yourself with these views. HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A SOCIALIST ? This goes against EVERYTHING Marx Engels and Lenin EVER said. This is dead wrong Felicia. God, I guess when you say you are a Nationalist and a Socialist you really mean "National Socialist".
Do you even know what that&#39;s about?

shut up.

[Pete]

Severian, re read my post the answer is there.

Urban I read bits of this thread, and especially the last page or so. It does seem a bit like finger pointing, but that is the nature of such an arguement. Although that is its nature that does not mean that it is productive or good. It is niether.

Mostly within our actions, the rest of the time it is rarely, very rarely, the Canadian government&#39;s direct action. Usually it is through the guise of multinational organizations, which I would like to divide from unilaterial movements, if you will.

Americas war in Iraq is American imperialism. The actions in Afganistan was not American imperialism, but a broader form of Western Imperialism. Also the actions of the WTO is economic imperalism of the first world. You see the difference?

Canada is liberal, in the modern sense, but definitly not socialist.

-Pete

[RyeN]

Well in the up comming years i think it will be good to push towards one world gouvernment. Then it doesnt matter where your from, so why would it mater your color, or race, or sex... Think about the funding. :ph34r:

[Urban Rubble]

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT&#33;

Stop manipulating things to put them in your favour&#33;

WTF??? GO READ THAT THREAD IN CHIT CHAT THAT YOU&#39;RE SO KEEN ON KEEPING GOING.

Yes, you did, if you want me to go find the post I will. I know for a fact you said it and if you really want to deny it I could spend a few minutes and find it.


Do you even know what that&#39;s about?

Yes, it&#39;s about you disliking someone because they aren&#39;t from your country. It&#39;s pretty cut and dry what you said. Your Nationalism shines brighter with every day.

[CubanFox]

You don&#39;t like your local MP because he&#39;s a Yank? What kind of nationalistic bullshit is this?

Nationalism does not go with socialism.

I think Mussolini was a nationalist...maybe you should wander into his camp. They could make you Il Duce of Canada.

[Vinny Rafarino]

RAF, have you ever heard the old saying "you catch more flies with honey than with shit"? you seem to know what you are talking about but the delivery is seriously lacking.


That&#39;s probably because I can give a fuck all about the delivery. What sugar-coating a pile of shit makes you do is pop it in your mouth without thinking. Once you begin to chew, that sugar turned out to be one nasty little trick. I prefer to know it&#39;s shit right from the start, therefore I can choose not to have to taste it, cos let&#39;s face it, shit taste like shit.

[Felicia]

Yes, it&#39;s about you disliking someone because they aren&#39;t from your country. It&#39;s pretty cut and dry what you said. Your Nationalism shines brighter with every day.


NO. It&#39;s about be disliking him because he&#39;s a conservative politician. And on top of it, not canadian. He&#39; smaking decisions in my government, and most likely for US interests. Because he&#39;s conservative, he&#39;s probably pro-US interests anyway.

I just don&#39;t like the combination.

[Urban Rubble]

U.S interests are almost always Canadian interests.

Oh, and I like your theory about him just being there to serve U.S interests. Ya, that&#39;s it Felicia, he&#39;s a secret American agent infiltrating your country&#39;s politics. Maybe he&#39;s James Bond&#39;s American son.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 16 2003, 10:47 PM
U.S interests are almost always Canadian interests.

Oh, and I like your theory about him just being there to serve U.S interests. Ya, that&#39;s it Felicia, he&#39;s a secret American agent infiltrating your country&#39;s politics. Maybe he&#39;s James Bond&#39;s American son.
no you nimrod. That&#39;s not my point.

you&#39;re so fucking dense, it&#39;s not funny.

sevarian

How about the Canadian warships in the Gulf, did they go there "of their own free will" too?
Most likely they&#39;re there due to their deployment to afghanistan....... it&#39;s the same gulf.

[Urban Rubble]

Ya Severian, they don&#39;t send their own warships to Iraq, they just let ours use their waters and fuel up at their ports.

Felicia, I know, I was exagerrating your point. Your point was that he cannot be a good Canadian politician because he is American, which is fucking absurd. You are getting out of hand. I don&#39;t see how Andrey is caged and you aren&#39;t. And from the 5 PMs I get per day, alot of the board agrees.

[Pete]

U.S interests are almost always Canadian interests

That is incorrect...but I don&#39;t feel the need to disprove it in length, but I will cite some examples (working my way from sometime after WWII to now)

The Vietnam War
The Suez Canal Crisis
Public Healthcare
Environmental issues (America is very destructive here)
ect
ect
ect...

I am not trying to provide a strong arguement, because I don&#39;t believe that you truly believe the above statement.


Felicia....just stop posting here. It will do you no good. I know your colours, but the questions here are meant to provoke. Your sentiments are being presented a bit skewed in comparison to what they really are, but that is the context of this thread.

I&#39;m not defending either, but this is getting annoying. When you are in a corner you fight will all you have...even if you do not fully agree with the methods.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 17 2003, 02:39 AM
Ya Severian, they don&#39;t send their own warships to Iraq, they just let ours use their waters and fuel up at their ports.
Huh? No. There are Canadian warships off Iraq. Have been for a decade, enforcing the blockade. The Onion even had a piece of crappy satire about it - who knew Canada had warships, etc. I say crappy because good satire should have some element of truth.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 16 2003, 11:39 PM
And from the 5 PMs I get per day, alot of the board agrees.
Oh?

What makes you think that I don&#39;t get PM&#39;s complaining about you???

You wouldn&#39;t believe the shit load I would get over our fighting in OI before. Holy shit.

And I get PM&#39;s about YOU from people here aswell. I&#39;ve also been asked by some not to tell you who they are, and I won&#39;t.

paranoid?

have a nice day.

Pete

Felicia....just stop posting here. It will do you no good. I know your colours, but the questions here are meant to provoke. Your sentiments are being presented a bit skewed in comparison to what they really are, but that is the context of this thread.

I&#39;m not defending either, but this is getting annoying. When you are in a corner you fight will all you have...even if you do not fully agree with the methods.
Yeah, I know. When there&#39;s only one path to take, I&#39;ll take it whether I believe in it or not.

Pete, you know me better than this. And good for that&#33; :)

And the irony is that rubble still acuses me of things, including getting upset about me not making responses to some of his posts, when there&#39;s a BIG LONG post I made about my feelings on canada in another thread, that he&#39;s chosen to ignore.

[FabFabian]

Jeez, I am away from the computer for a few days only to come back and see a load of rubbish. :rolleyes:

Ok kids...first and foremost let&#39;s review what the definition of imperialism is. It is obvious that some do not have a clue.

Imperialism - noun, the policy of having or extending an empire.

Empire - noun, a group of countries ruled by a supreme authority; a large organization controlled by one person or group.

Now to take Canada and try and have it fit into either definition is an exercise in futility. I don&#39;t recall anywhere in Canadian history 1867 to present, there ever being a policy of taking over nation states and enforcing our culture and way of life on anyone. I challenge anyone to prove this wrong. There is no gov&#39;t policy to inflict "democracy" on rogue states. Now if you are to use the history of Canada or British North America in regards to Aboriginal people the point is moot. Aboriginal, First Nations, however you want to describe them were never nations nor do they regard themselves as such. They are the original inhabitors of the land mass, but the founding nations of Canada are England and France.

Canadian warships helping in the Persian Gulf you say? Duh, they have been there since the Gulf war...next&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Canadians fought in Iraq....maybe so, but not under the auspices of the Canadian Armed Forces....Nextttttttt&#33;&#33;&#33;

Boer War, WW1 et al....Canada was essentiallly still a colony and was obliged to help the "mother" country. Until 1982, the highest court of appeal was Westminster.

The expansion westward of Upper Canada was necessary to thwart U.S. acquisition of the land. 54-40, Manifest Destiny???? Ring any bells ???

Nfld, the Rock, the poor cousin, the little colony that couldn&#39;t....let&#39;s be realistic here. Do you really think that Nfld could survive as an independent country??? Not if your main source of income the cod fishery. Britain would have told them to sort themselves out anyway. Not enough sun, not enough sandy beaches.

Is Talisman a crown corporation? Is it forcing people to use loonies and wear toques in the Sudan? It may be a Canadian company, but the bottom line is more important than spreading any nationalistic ethos. Do we see covert Canadian gov&#39;t agencies going into poorer nations and forcing their hand to bend to our way of thinking? I didn&#39;t know that Chretien had a policy to make other countries broadcast reruns of "The Littlest Hobo", flood their radio stations with music from Rush and push the fashion stylings of Bob and Doug Mackenzie or Sgt. Prescott of the RCMP.

Urban Rubble...shake your head and let us know what the Dr&#39;s final diagnosis is. :P

[Felicia]

hahaha :D :P

[Pete]

Fab....I know you are trying to do good, but definitions change. I don&#39;t propose any new definitions, because that goes beyond my current sleepdeprived mental conditions of the moment. Canada was created by Imperialist forces. We rule over a vast number of nations (see the First nations [each seperatly], quebecios, n. ontarian, albertian, rural _____ [fill in province], urban _____ [again fill in province], Newfies, Saskies, Manitobans, Southern Ontarians, ect ect ect), and a few possible &#39;nationstates&#39; (see the West, Nfld, and Quebec).

We also practice harsh economic imperialism against the people we slaughtered (although not in the same numbers the Americans did) to establish our current racist, capitalist, and imperialist regime. Remember the Bzantines ruled an empire...

[Urban Rubble]

Sorry FabFabian, you&#39;re right. Why expose Canada&#39;s flaws ? Why not just sit back and cheer them on while condeming the U.S.

GO CAPITALISM &#33;&#33;&#33; YAY &#33;&#33; HOORAY FOR WAR &#33;&#33;&#33;

[FabFabian]

CrazyPete, that is the history of the world. If there is a complaint to be made about Canada being created out of imperialism, take it up with the British. At the same time, Britain was a victim of imperialism as well. Check out the Roman Empire. The inhabitants of Britain were fine just living their lives as Druids and such, worshiping the goddess when along came the Romans with their bloody roadworks, aquaducts and that Hadrian&#39;s wall to keep the Scottish barbarians out of England.

Last time I checked, Imperialism and Empire definitions have remained the same since their creation. I stand by the Oxford Dictionary.

Urban, you cannot possibly compare Canada with American power on the global stage. I know my country has its faults and the main one is taking on American social policies. Must I state again that we are not inflicting our culture and ideas of democracy on other people. If a country likes to parade around telling others to do as I say, not as I do it should be no surprise it receives criticism.

Btw, the Greeks invented democracy and not the Americans.

[Urban Rubble]

O.K, I will tell you what I told the other kid that brought this up.

By your definition, Canada is not Imperialist, fine. Now, we all know that they are helping out it Iraq and Aghanistan because they don&#39;t want to strain realtions with their business parters, the U.S. They are doing it because of U.S pressure. If they do not help, what would be the consequence ? Loss of money.

So sure, say it isn&#39;t Imperialism. That doesn&#39;t make it any prettier. They are in this for money, if you think that is a better reason then I am very sorry.

[Pete]

We are selling weapons to America...not necassarily giving them troop s(except those on exchange who have the right to not fight in non Canadian sanctioned battles or something of that nature)...

But Fab. Words have connotations and dictions. If you claim by the diction of the Oxford dictionary, fine by me, but remember langauges evolve and yes they are different today. We do not like to criticize our selves but it is true. The &#39;conquest&#39; of what is now Canada was just as much a reaction to American expanisionism as was the poliy of Louis XIV in 1666 to thwart British expansionism.... cyclical history cyclical history.

[Felicia]

canada isn&#39;t imperialistic, we have no control over any other countries. I&#39;m tired of people saying that we&#39;re in afganistan and Iraq for imperialistic reasons. WE ARE NOT. Canada isn&#39;t in afganistan to gain control over it, to add it to our "sphere of influence", because we control NO ONE. We have no control over Iraq either. Our troops are activly PEACEKEEPING, not "TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY AND OVERTHROWING THE PREVIOUS LEADER BECAUSE WE WANT OIL, MORE OIL, MIDEAST DOMINATION&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;"

[Urban Rubble]

So Felicia, you are claiming the tanks and weapons Canada is contributing are for "peacekeeping" ? So the U.S&#39;s actions are Imperialism, but Canada contributing weapons, ships and troops isn&#39;t ?

Like I said, on Canada&#39;s part, perhaps it isn&#39;t Imperialism. At any rate, it is a matter of money. If you think going to war for money rather than Imperialism is O.K, then you&#39;re worse off than I thought.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 20 2003, 06:07 PM
So Felicia, you are claiming the tanks and weapons Canada is contributing are for "peacekeeping" ? So the U.S&#39;s actions are Imperialism, but Canada contributing weapons, ships and troops isn&#39;t ?

Like I said, on Canada&#39;s part, perhaps it isn&#39;t Imperialism. At any rate, it is a matter of money. If you think going to war for money rather than Imperialism is O.K, then you&#39;re worse off than I thought.
YOU&#39;RE the one who kept saying that we were being imperialistic, now we&#39;re not?

We need to keep peace and help rebuild the country, yes? How to you keep piece between two sides that both have guns and bombs? With cotton candy? I don&#39;t think so, cotton candy can&#39;t solve all the worlds problems&#33;

How is our involvement in peacekeeping a "matter of money?" What money is Canada making? The only money that I can see being made, is the money the Can. gov. is paying to our military for their services.

WE DIDN&#39;T GO TO ANY "WAR," OK? The canadian government DID NOT politically support this war on Iraq, we wanted the weapons inspections to continue, we een made many proposals to the US regyarding the US and Iraq, and what to do about the suspected weapons. The canadian government reviewed the "evidence" for war, and concluded that it was NOT substancial enough for military actions.

why don&#39;t you understand that? What parts of canada the US used during this war, it already had access too. Nothing different was done on canada&#39;s part. We were just there, as usual, blowing in the wind. There isn&#39;t much we could&#39;ve done to stop the Iraqi Invasion.

[Urban Rubble]

YOU&#39;RE the one who kept saying that we were being imperialistic, now we&#39;re not?

No, I was agreeing for the sake of argument.


We need to keep peace and help rebuild the country, yes? How to you keep piece between two sides that both have guns and bombs? With cotton candy? I don&#39;t think so, cotton candy can&#39;t solve all the worlds problems&#33;

Did you even read the article ? Are you serious with this bullshit ? You actually think that Canada is in Iraq keeping the U.S in check ? Are you that fucking stupid ? Let me re-state the author&#39;s points, tell me if these are peacekeeping actions.


While many in Canada believed that this country’s armed forces were not part of the war, the reality was different. Twenty-five military planners from Canada were active members of the US military’s central command (CENTCOM) in Qatar, the body that planned and oversaw the assault on Iraq.


About 1300 military personnel on three Canadian warships provided protection for US aircraft carriers from which much of the air war was launched.


Canada also had 31 troops inside Iraq working with US and British forces, including ten Canadian pilots who participated in the aerial bombing of Iraq.


On top of all this, the Canadian government allowed US aircraft bound for the Persian Gulf to refuel and change crews in Newfoundland


So, however questionable his motives, when US ambassador Paul Cellucci claimed that Canada was offering more support to the war in Iraq than all but three or four nations, he was right


In addition to this direct military involvement, Canadian business is a major producer of equipment for the US war machine. Canadian firms export almost &#036;3 billion worth of military hardware to the US every year. Canadian-built simulators, flight management systems, data networks and computer equipment guided US helicopters, stealth bombers, fighter jets, armoured vehicles and ships used in the attack on Iraq

Are these the actions of a peace keeper ? I ask again, are you serious with this bullshit ? Canda is a direct participant in the war.


How is our involvement in peacekeeping a "matter of money?" What money is Canada making? The only money that I can see being made, is the money the Can. gov. is paying to our military for their services.

Where is the money being made ?


Not surprisingly, Canada’s business elite came out loudly in favour of the war. This is not because the Canadian business class is a mere puppet of US capitalists, as some commentators suggest. On the contrary, the business class in Canada represents a powerful and well-organized section of international capitalism which profits from imperialist undertakings of its own.

Also, my point was, that if you claim Canada is only in this for "peacekeeping" , you&#39;re nuts. Canada didn&#39;t want to upset it&#39;s business partner, the U.S, so they helped out.


WE DIDN&#39;T GO TO ANY "WAR," OK? The canadian government DID NOT politically support this war on Iraq, we wanted the weapons inspections to continue, we een made many proposals to the US regyarding the US and Iraq, and what to do about the suspected weapons. The canadian government reviewed the "evidence" for war, and concluded that it was NOT substancial enough for military actions.

Again, I question whether you read the article or not. You guys were directly involved in combat. You guys built some of our weapons. How is this not going to war ?


why don&#39;t you understand that? What parts of canada the US used during this war, it already had access too. Nothing different was done on canada&#39;s part. We were just there, as usual, blowing in the wind. There isn&#39;t much we could&#39;ve done to stop the Iraqi Invasion.

No, you couldn&#39;t stop it, does not that mean that you had to help ? You have constantly claimed you guys had no part in the war, but the evidence clearly shows you wrong. So what is it, did you not read the article, or are you saying that the author is a liar ?

[Felicia]

No, I was agreeing for the sake of argument.
You can&#39;t backtrack now, you said "like I said" meaning that you&#39;ve meant it that way before. You&#39;re so transparent.




Did you even read the article ? Are you serious with this bullshit ? You actually think that Canada is in Iraq keeping the U.S in check ? Are you that fucking stupid ? Let me re-state the author&#39;s points, tell me if these are peacekeeping actions.


yeah I read it, and I responded to it in another thread, which you&#39;ve conviently not responded in. Have it your way, but you can&#39;t talk about this issue otherwise, not when there&#39;s a comment you won&#39;t read.




Are these the actions of a peace keeper ? I ask again, are you serious with this bullshit ? Canda is a direct participant in the war.


go read the post in "how dumb are the yanks", moron




Also, my point was, that if you claim Canada is only in this for "peacekeeping" , you&#39;re nuts. Canada didn&#39;t want to upset it&#39;s business partner, the U.S, so they helped out.


WE ARE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FOR PEACEKEEPING IN IRAQ, WE ARE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FOR HELPING IN AFGANISTAN, WE ARE GETTING NOTHING FROM THOSE COUNTRIES, AND NOTHING MORE FORM THE US. Get a grip.




Again, I question whether you read the article or not. You guys were directly involved in combat. You guys built some of our weapons. How is this not going to war ?


YEAH, we built weapons, ok, but we build weapons for them anyway, we build tanks for them anyway, what they do with them is up to them, GO READ THE OTHER THREAD, I RESPONDED TO THIS ALREADY.




No, you couldn&#39;t stop it, does not that mean that you had to help ? You have constantly claimed you guys had no part in the war, but the evidence clearly shows you wrong. So what is it, did you not read the article, or are you saying that the author is a liar ?


HAHAHAH, That article isn&#39;t "evidence", they guy is taking information, and things that we do anyway, and making it sound like we&#39;ve only done it for them now, while they&#39;re in Iraq. It&#39;s been going on longer, go read the other thread.

**EDIT**
Here&#39;s the URL
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...&t=16865&st=140 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=16865&st=140)

[Pete]

Canada is an economic Imperialist. Most of our forgien aid goes with the condition that it is not spent on helping the nation, but helping Canadian corporations. We also use our large grain supply to coerce nations into doing what we want them too. We are niether as assholish nor as overt as the Americans, but we are still guilty.