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View Full Version : Competition and Fairness in Society: Thought Experiment.



Oswy
1st March 2011, 21:14
Hi, I'm trying to develop a thought experiment which, by analogy, demonstrates how the inheritance and accumulation of capital (or other equivalent resources) easily create structured advantages and disadvantages in competitive/capitalist society.

Any comments or ideas much appreciated, especially those which might help me make the case more simply and effectively.


Imagine living in a society based purely on competition, where your ability to feed, clothe and home yourself, and your family maybe, depends exclusively on you taking part in routine competition to secure the necessary reward. There is no welfare state here, you participate in the competition or you suffer the consequences. No one, however, is 'forced' into the competition, they are free not to participate, it's their 'choice'. Let’s imagine that in this particular society the form of that competition is knife fighting. Even if they sometimes do cause serious injury and death, there’s no automatic reason that such knife fights need always do so, as any participant in a knife fight can surrender at any moment, and thus hand victory over to their opponent. So far, so good. Even though the competitions are referred to as ‘knife fights’ the weapons used can vary considerably, some people bring only a pen-knife to their encounters, some bring double-edged swords. Why would anyone only bring a pen-knife? Well, some people in this society only have pen-knives, it is all their resources allow, some people don’t even have that and they can’t easily participate in the competition at all. On the other hand, some people have plenty of resources and turn up to their knife fight with just such a double-edged sword, sometimes they even have one in each hand. In this society of competition there is no rule which prevents a knife fighter bringing whatever he has to the fight by way bladed weapons. Not only this, the well resourced might easily come to their competition well prepared in other ways. Their resources might have permitted them to undertake an expensive series of sword-fighting classes in their youth, they may have some very useful, if expensive, body armour, they might even have their own fitness trainer and enjoy a diet which maximises their physical condition too. In contrast, the ‘pen-knife’ opponents are less likely to have even decent clothing, let alone body armour, and they may well spend much of their day, including the hours before their fights, scavenging on rubbish tips for leftover food. All other things being equal, we can easily see how some people win competitions more easily than others and how some people lose competitions more easily than others too. Occasionally there is a spectacular victory in which desperation or tenaciousness, alongside a little luck no doubt, allows a pen-knife fighter to secure victory over a sword wielding opponent. But we shouldn’t fool ourselves here, in the vast majority of encounters those who come to fights with only pen-knives have little chance if their opponents bring greater resources to bear in the battle. And, it stands to reason, those who routinely win fights win further resources to maintain or improve their competitive ‘edge’ (pardon the pun). In time, the well resourced fighter may even employ another to do their fighting for them and reduce their actual physical risks to zero. At the same time, those who routinely lose fights will struggle, not only to bring a more substantial weapon to their future fights, but to feed and clothe themselves adequately too. We might just imagine a pattern of results emerging in this society of ‘competition’.

To what extent can we apply the concept of ‘fairness’ to the above kind of competitive society?

Queercommie Girl
10th March 2011, 23:20
But even if hypothetically you create a society in which the "knife fights" really are completely fair, it's clearly still not a communist society. Therefore this analogy is incomplete.

The "weapons" in this hypothetical society are like capital, competition in a capitalist society is obviously fundamentally unfair because some people have huge amounts of capital, others have very little, while many more have none at all. However, to make such "capital competitions" fair is not the ultimate objective of communism, the ultimate objective of communism is to disarm everyone, leading to the complete elimination of capital.

If weapons were capital, then communism would be absolute pacifism.

You are looking at things from a petit-bourgeois perspective, worried that "competition is not fair" since the big capitalists monopolise capital. You are not looking at things from a proletarian perspective, which would seek to eliminate capitalist competition completely.

Ocean Seal
11th March 2011, 02:26
Well here is the thing. What's not important is the equity of competition. Suppose that the state raised the children and that when someone died their wealth was used by the state to raise the children. That scenario eliminates inheritance. It certainly makes for a "fairer" capitalism, but its still capitalism. There will still be a ruling class who exploits the grand majority and that is still wrong. If we randomly picked the bourgeoisie the grand majority would still be oppressed and we should still fight capitalism.

Octavian
11th March 2011, 03:51
But even if hypothetically you create a society in which the "knife fights" really are completely fair, it's clearly still not a communist society. Therefore this analogy is incomplete.

I think by "concept of ‘fairness’" he's referring to the argument that capitalists make stating "In capitalism everyone has a fair and equal chance to become rich".

ckaihatsu
11th March 2011, 08:06
In addition to my agreement with Iseul I'll note that there's a dialectical intertwining of cooperation and competition, no matter the scale or circumstances. (Please see the middle category in the attached diagram.)

While your scenario -- like many "game"-like situations -- attempts to portray a "pure", competition-only environment, the reality of *any* scenario or situation is that it is *still* situated within a larger social context, one that will necessarily be *political*.

I'll back up this claim by rhetorically asking why the most powerful fighter in your hypothetical society doesn't just simply whack everyone else and keep the entire place to himself. The answer -- which we may know instinctively -- is because such an *attempt* would unwittingly initiate social (political) forces within the society that would work in concert to *counteract* such an unbalancing of the social order, however it happened to be constituted by mass mutual tacit agreement on the "rules of the game".

The world currently has nuclear missile weapons technology. Why aren't we seeing all-out nuclear warfare for complete dominance over the entire world? The reason here, as also for your hypothetical, is that competitive forces are *mitigated* by *cooperative* forces, just as cooperative forces are mitigated by competitive ones.

As revolutionaries we would *like* everyone to just give it a rest and get along and stop the short-sighted and irresponsible alienated externalization of individualistic efforts in the larger social-material world, but we're not fools about the current human condition, either. Entreaties for cooperation will only go so far because such impromptu getting-along -- as in limited-area revolts and rebellions, for example -- will quickly reach their material, geographic, and temporal limits, and will either have to generalize onto a higher-level politics of social relations, or else they will be overcome by the existing status-quo arena of social relations.


Humanities-Technology Chart 2.0

http://postimage.org/image/1d4ldatxg/

Queercommie Girl
11th March 2011, 09:51
In addition to my agreement with Iseul I'll note that there's a dialectical intertwining of cooperation and competition, no matter the scale or circumstances. (Please see the middle category in the attached diagram.)


I'm not talking about competition in general, but rather specifically capitalist economic competition, which Marx believes should be eliminated.

Just like even in the OP's hypothetical society, knife fights aren't the only kind of competition potentially, but in this society knives are analogical to capital, and communism would struggle for the complete disarmament of everyone, not just making sure all the knives are the same size.

Oswy
11th March 2011, 17:30
...

You are looking at things from a petit-bourgeois perspective, worried that "competition is not fair" since the big capitalists monopolise capital. You are not looking at things from a proletarian perspective, which would seek to eliminate capitalist competition completely.

Well, yes, but I'm doing that deliberately as an entry point into the mind of the liberal/capitalist who is necessarily resistant to starker socialist or Marxist arguments, i.e. my aim is to show them that even within their own conventions of thinking, capitalism isn't really 'fair' at all in actual operation. I appreciate that there's a danger of getting myself into a false position but at the same time I think it's worth having a neat analogical means to show that claims to capitalism's 'fairness' are in any event false, from which further, more fundamental consideration could perhaps follow.

Oswy
11th March 2011, 17:34
I think by "concept of ‘fairness’" he's referring to the argument that capitalists make stating "In capitalism everyone has a fair and equal chance to become rich".

Thanks, yes, that's basically it. Offering up a Marxist or socialist argument is going to pass right over the head of many who are raised to think in normative liberal/capitalist terms, so I'm looking to show that the system that they claim is 'fair' quite easily isn't at all. If we can persuade liberal/capitalists that their system isn't fair then they either have to shrug their shoulders in concession and say "well, that's just tough" and stop claiming it is 'fair' or they can, ideally, radically reconsider their position.

ZeroNowhere
11th March 2011, 17:37
If weapons were capital, then communism would be absolute pacifism.
We don't particularly wish to abolish the means of production, merely their social role as capital. The knives in the above society play a specific role within the competitive structure of this society, and in any case this is precisely what is to be abolished through abolishing the entire competition and therefore ending the mediation of human social relationships through weapons which would force each individual to feature as an isolated, atomized individual working in their private interest.

Ultimately, though, I'm not sure that that's relevant, given that what seems to be attacked is the concept of 'meritocracy', and I don't think that your objection really has anything to do with this. The fact that meritocracy and 'just desserts' is an incoherent ethical concept has been present since Plato and the New Testament, though.

Queercommie Girl
11th March 2011, 17:59
Ultimately, though, I'm not sure that that's relevant, given that what seems to be attacked is the concept of 'meritocracy', and I don't think that your objection really has anything to do with this. The fact that meritocracy and 'just desserts' is an incoherent ethical concept has been present since Plato and the New Testament, though.


A meritocratic-centric philosophy like Confucianism still makes much more sense than a caste-centric philosophy like Hinduism or even a faith-centric philosophy like Christianity though.

Nor was Plato a particularly progressive thinker in the ancient Greek world, since he was essentially an idealist, believing in a non-sensical "Platonic realm" behind empirical appearances. I would quote philosophers like Democritus and Epicurus more than Plato.

There is nothing wrong with meritocracy in itself, since any realistic society can never do away with all competition. What I'm against is simply the particular kind of competition under capitalism and the kind of "meritocracy" mediated through the ownership of capital. An ideal communist system should have some technocratic elements that promote the liberation of the productive forces, because technological and scientific progress will continue under communism. Society won't just "stop progressing", because although class struggle would cease under communism, the struggle of men against nature never will. So the best system is the balance between direct democracy and meritocracy/technocracy.