Anti-Gaddafi forces killing African migrants

[The Vegan Marxist]

African migrants targeted in Libya
February 28, 2011

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As nations evacuate their citizens from the violence gripping Libya, many African migrant workers are targeted because they are suspected of being mercenaries hired by Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader.

Dozens of workers from sub-Saharan Africa are feared killed, and hundreds are in hiding, as angry mobs of anti-government protesters hunt down “black African mercenaries,” according to witnesses.

About 90 Kenyans and another 64 citizens from South Sudan, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Zambia, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Democratic Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone and Burundi landed in Nairobi on Monday, according to officials.

“We were being attacked by local people who said that we were mercenaries killing people. Let me say that they did not want to see black people,” Julius Kiluu, a 60-year-old building supervisor, told Reuters.

“Our camp was burnt down, and we were assisted by the Kenyan embassy and our company to get to the airport,” he said.

Rights organisations say that thousands of workers are stranded in camps and private homes, protected by their colleagues as their governments fail to evacuate them from the chaos.

“But why is nobody concerned about the plight of sub-Saharan African migrants in Libya? As victims of racism and ruthless exploitation, they are Libya’s most vulnerable immigrant population, and their home country governments do not give them any support,” Hein de Haas, a senior fellow with the International Migration Institute, writes in his blog.

Al Jazeera’s Nazenine Moshiri met Seidou Boubaker Jallou, a Malian citizen, who said he fled Libya after many black migrants came under attack.

“The most dangerous situation is for foreigners like us – and also us black people – because Gaddafi brought soldiers from Chad and Niger who reportedly killed Arabs,” he said.

Experts say that Gaddafi has had a long relationship with African fighters who now came to his assistance.

Low-paid labourers

Hundreds of black immigrants from poor African countries, who mainly work in Libya’s oil industry as cheap labourers, have also been injured in the violence. Some were unable to seek medical treatment for fear of being killed.

Saad Jabbar, deputy director of the North Africa Centre at Cambridge University, confirms Africans have become targets.

“I tell you, these people, because of their scheme, they will be slaughtered in Libya. There is so much anger there against those mercenaries, which suddenly sprung up,” Jabbar said.

About 1.5m Sub-Saharan African migrants work in Libya as low-paid labourers in the oil industry, construction, agriculture and service sectors.

Rights organisations say some anti-Gaddafi protesters wrongly associate African workers with state-sponsored violence.

“African immigrants are now linked to state-orchestrated violence and mass killings, and we may therefore fear the worst about the violent backlash that may follow particularly after Gaddafi is ousted,” said Haas.

Ignored by their governments, African workers are one of the most vulnerable groups in Libya right now. Analysts say unless a preventative measure is taken, a massive bloodletting is feared.

“I think it is urgent to do something about it now, otherwise, a genocide against anyone who has black skin and who doesn’t speak perfect Arabic is possible,” said Jabbar.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122865814378541.html

[Sasha]

troll infested shitstorm splitted too here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/debate-between-yankee-t150848/index.html

[khad]

As nations evacuate their citizens from the violence gripping Libya, many African migrant workers are targeted because they are suspected of being mercenaries hired by Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader.

Dozens of workers from sub-Saharan Africa are feared killed, and hundreds are in hiding, as angry mobs of anti-government protesters hunt down “black African mercenaries,” according to witnesses.
It's really just an excuse. They would be killing black Africans anyway, like they did several years ago with massive race riots that Gaddafi eventually had to put down with show trials and executions because it was such an international embarassment.

Everyone knows by now that a lot of "average" Libyan citizens are just brown colored KKKlansmen, and it's foolish to delude ourselves by thinking that they are not.

https://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/oct2000/liby-o28.shtml



Ethnic violence and mass deportations of immigrants in Libya

By Trevor Johnson
28 October 2000

Beginning in September, African immigrants living in Libya have been routinely set upon and killed by gangs of Libyan youths, with no action taken by the security forces to prevent the attacks. Immigrants, including thousands of Nigerians and Ghanaians and many from Chad, Niger, the Gambia and Sudan have since been forcibly removed from Libya as part of an organised repatriation in the wake of the widespread violence. Some of the deportees said they had suffered beatings, while others said they had been robbed or had their homes burned down.
The clashes began after Libya's top legislative and executive body ordered a crackdown on the employment of foreigners-many of whom have no official papers—and had made arrangements for their forcible deportation. Prior to the violence, many of those labelled as “illegal immigrants” had spent weeks in various detention centres.

[danyboy27]

if the libyans are such a band of racist klansmen, we should just put down the libya new feed and ban the fuck away anybody supporting the revolution.

[Sasha]

It's really just an excuse. They would be killing black Africans anyway, like they did several years ago with massive race riots that Gaddafi eventually had to put down with show trials and executions because it was such an international embarassment.

Everyone knows by now that a lot of "average" Libyan citizens are just brown colored KKKlansmen, and it's foolish to delude ourselves by thinking that they are not.

https://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/oct2000/liby-o28.shtml

from the link you provided it sounds a lot more like the cause of those riots was serious incitement by the regime, and that that same regime subsequently siezed upon that what she fanned too kick out the unwanted part of the immigrant population.
if any one is too blame for the arab supremacy and tribal/ethnic rivalery its gadaffi and his "son of the desert" "leader of africa" etc etc rhetoric.

[khad]

from the link you provided it sounds a lot more like the cause of those riots was serious incitement by the regime, and that that same regime subsequently siezed upon that what she fanned too kick out the unwanted part of the immigrant population.
if any one is too blame for the arab supremacy and tribal/ethnic rivalery its gadaffi and his "son of the desert" "leader of africa" etc etc rhetoric.
Actually, psycho, you don't know the first thing about this. Such ignorance is one of the many reasons why revleft is so cringeworthy to read.

Anyone who knows the first thing about Libya or has spoken to Libyans know that it is popular to associate Gaddafi with black criminality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/debates/african_debates/953159.stm


As a Libyan I fully support the revolts that are taking place against Gaddafi's "imported" criminals. Our society, culture and economy is being raped. Ask Mr. Gaddafi: Where is the 350 billion dollars of our national budget missing?
Abdesalam Zoueh, Tripoli, Libya.


I think it is unfair to label Libyans as racists. But it is fair to say Gaddafi is. Indeed, even within Libya, Gaddafi has a stratification system whereby members of his tribe have power and money without having to work for it. However, the Libyan outburst has its roots in the black Africans' disregard for Libyan traditions. Too many of them took Gaddafi's invitation as a license to do as they wish, including selling drugs and prostitution. Many black Africans worked and lived in Libya in the past with few problems because they respected the host people's values and traditions.
Mustafa Saleem, Libya Hatred for Gaddafi and his blacks has been brewing for decades. You should have seen the self-righteous moral indignation when Libyans were eventually executed for inciting violence.

[danyboy27]

if there was indeed favoritism within the kadafi regime for some black, wouldnt be somehow normal that violence against black is increasing then?

Racism would have been then created by the regime, kinda like what happened in rwanda when the belgian created sectarian division to rule the country.

[khad]

if there was indeed favoritism within the kadafi regime for some black, wouldnt be somehow normal that violence against black is increasing then?

Racism would have been then created by the regime, kinda like what happened in rwanda when the belgian created sectarian division to rule the country.
Explain to me how menial migrant workers are privileged. Explain to me how they conspire to rule Libya despite facing the risk of deportation at any moment.

You were let out of OI a hundred years too early, you malthusian dolt. You should go to America and join the Tea Party, so you can whine about taxpayer dollars supporting Mexican "illegals."

[danyboy27]

Explain to me how menial migrant workers are privileged. Explain to me how they conspire to rule Libya despite facing the risk of deportation at any moment.

You were let out of OI a hundred years too early, you malthusian dolt. You should go to America and join the Tea Party, so you can whine about taxpayer dollars supporting Mexican "illegals."

fuck off you fucking assole read my post again you dimwit.

there is a big IF, learn to read you prick.

[Sasha]

@ khad,
i think the word you missed in dannyboys post was some, if indeed kadaffi relied uppon members of the sub-saharan rebel forces he trained that would indeed create understandable resentment.
i think anyone looking at the pictures of benghazi and other rebel crontrolled area's would see that in contrast too the stooges fakeing support demo on tripoli square they are absolutly not 100% arab. lots of them are distinctly berber or tuareg, even more are (at least partial) sub-saharan black.

[Sasha]

oh and read your own fucking quote you provided you condesending prick:


Beginning in September, African immigrants living in Libya have been routinely set upon and killed by gangs of Libyan youths, with no action taken by the security forces to prevent the attacks. Immigrants, including thousands of Nigerians and Ghanaians and many from Chad, Niger, the Gambia and Sudan have since been forcibly removed from Libya as part of an organised repatriation in the wake of the widespread violence. Some of the deportees said they had suffered beatings, while others said they had been robbed or had their homes burned down.
The clashes began after Libya's top legislative and executive body ordered a crackdown on the employment of foreigners-many of whom have no official papers—and had made arrangements for their forcible deportation. Prior to the violence, many of those labelled as “illegal immigrants” had spent weeks in various detention centres.

but hey, its not that there wasnt an precedent, in 1973 gadaffi kicked out all the jews and stole their property (yes there had been anti-jewish riots as well before the gadaffi coup butr no organised expulsion and theft or their possesions). not to mention the 30.000 palestinans he kicked out in 1995 overnight in an tantrum.

[Luís Henrique]

Ethnic violence and mass deportations of immigrants in Libya

Beginning in September, African immigrants living in Libya have been routinely set upon and killed by gangs of Libyan youths, with no action taken by the security forces to prevent the attacks.

So Gaddafy's regime has taken no action to repress racist attacks against African immigrants.


Immigrants, including thousands of Nigerians and Ghanaians and many from Chad, Niger, the Gambia and Sudan have since been forcibly removed from Libya as part of an organised repatriation in the wake of the widespread violence.So Gaddafy's regime has taken advantage of racist attacks against African immigrants in order to remove them from Libya in an organised repatriation effort.


Some of the deportees said they had suffered beatings, while others said they had been robbed or had their homes burned down.
The clashes began after Libya's top legislative and executive body ordered a crackdown on the employment of foreigners-many of whom have no official papers—and had made arrangements for their forcible deportation.So Gaddafy's regime ordered a crackdown on foreigners, and Gaddafy's regime made arrangements for their forcible deportation.


Prior to the violence, many of those labelled as “illegal immigrants” had spent weeks in various detention centres.Which is to say, in detention centres ruled by Gaddafy's regime.

By quoting this, you have proven that Gaddafy's regime was in fact racist against Black Africans. Granted, this racism may or may not be widespread through the Libyian populace. But to interpret this as proof that the Libyia uprising is an Arab-supremacist movement against an excessively Black-friendly regime is a huge distortion of available evidence. At worst, both sides share the same "racial" views, in which case the riots are about something else, not "race".

Luís Henrique

[khad]

By quoting this, you have proven that Gaddafy's regime was in fact racist against Black Africans. Granted, this racism may or may not be widespread through the Libyian populace. But to interpret this as proof that the Libyia uprising is an Arab-supremacist movement against an excessively Black-friendly regime is a huge distortion of available evidence. At worst, both sides share the same "racial" views, in which case the riots are about something else, not "race".
Don't we love strawmen today?

I never said Gaddafi's regime was pro-black. That was danyboy's politically illiterate creative interpretation. I even mentioned how African migrants in Libya are constantly at risk of arrest and summary deportation. If you want to accuse me of saying something, you better fucking prove it.



if there was indeed favoritism within the kadafi regime for some black, wouldnt be somehow normal that violence against black is increasing then?

Racism would have been then created by the regime, kinda like what happened in rwanda when the belgian created sectarian division to rule the country.
Explain to me how menial migrant workers are privileged. Explain to me how they conspire to rule Libya despite facing the risk of deportation at any moment.

What is damning is that even with all the deportations, detentions, and the false charges, Gaddafi still wasn't hard enough on "illegal" blacks as the Libyan people would have liked. What is damning is that despite all the crackdowns on "illegals," Libyans still associate him with blacks overrunning their country.

[khad]

So Gaddafy's regime has taken no action to repress racist attacks against African immigrants.
I never knew they stacked bullshit that high, but what do I expect from a westerner who hasn't even heard of Libya until these protests?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1135037.stm


Wednesday, 24 January, 2001, 16:26 GMT
Libyan immigration trial begins

The trial has opened in Libya of hundreds of people accused of involvement in last October's riots against immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa.

Most of the defendents were Libyan nationals, but some citizens of Nigeria, Niger, Ghana and Chad were also on trial.

The riots led to an unknown number of deaths and severely dented the reputation of Libya in Africa.

It was a particular blow for the country's leader Muammar Gaddafi who had been promoting heavily his vision of a United States of Africa.From these trials, about a dozen were given the death penalty, but just about every match on google cries rivers about how no one was actually punished for racial violence. What's funny is that the WSWS, in all the trotbaggery, seized upon the race riots as a means to engage in a principled criticism of the hypocrisy of Gaddafi's pan-Africanist message, but they conveniently have no mention of all the boring juridicial matters in the aftermath.

The Gaddafi government hounds, arrests, and deports sub-Saharan African migrants, but there are apparently limits to how far they'll go in treating blacks. That's pretty much the extent of "favoritism" that the Libyan state showed black migrants - some very rudimentary legal protections that just about any modern society would be psychotic not to uphold.

Well, the Libyan people have their version. Talk to any Libyan and they'll recount this as just another example of Gaddafi letting blacks run their country - doping and whoring and disrespecting their culture and then getting good patriotic Libyans killed for their crimes.

[danyboy27]

Racism isnt something that is natural to human condition, it have to be engineered somehow.

For exemple racism against black people in america was something the upper class colonist engineered to avoid massive rebellion of lower class white servants and former slaves. they created division within those by various methods (monetary and material rewards, better contract terms) when they saw the potential risks of an uprising by the unification of those two groups.


Racism in libya must have been created by someone or something, peoples arnt naturally racist, something else is at play here.

Could be gadafi, could be something else, i dont know, i am just theorizing.

and i am not a mathusian, having more black, white or yellow people in a country all the sudden dosnt create racism, there is always something else behind xenophobia and racism.

[khad]

oh and read your own fucking quote you provided you condesending prick

Unfortuately you're too inept to actually do a quick news search for the facts and are forced to rely on the politically interested lies of a trotskyist rag. It just shows the extent of their wingnuttery when they claim that "nothing" was done to stop the attacks when the facts are that several hundred were arrested and about a dozen were given the death penalty for inciting violence in the fall of 2000. The trials began immediately in January of 2001, and as far as I know there was no Roman Polanski film released in that year, so the WSWS's attention couldn't have been too divided.

Refer to the post above:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-gaddafi-forces-t150828/index.html?p=2036011#post2036011

Gaddafi's government was in many ways arab supremacist. But there were certain lines they weren't willing to cross, like street lynching. To some this would be restraint, but to others this was just another example of his black "favoritism" that he was using to oppress the "true" Libyans.

Let's not romanticize the supposed "people's movement." They are what they are, not wholly progressive, not wholly reactionary. Thinking about it this way will do wonders for your sanity when they disappoint you later.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Again, I really don't think it should come to a surprise to anyone that a government hiring foreign mercenaries from a particular country to repress its own people will incite hatred from the "local" people. Same goes for a foreign country attacking another. Especially in a country with a high youth poverty and unemployment, and who have themselves felt marginalized. It's the traditional story of race relations ... play off the weak against the weak so they hate each other and lash out violently.

[khad]

Again, I really don't think it should come to a surprise to anyone that a government hiring foreign mercenaries from a particular country to repress its own people will incite hatred from the "local" people. Same goes for a foreign country attacking another. Especially in a country with a high youth poverty and unemployment, and who have themselves felt marginalized. It's the traditional story of race relations ... play off the weak against the weak so they hate each other and lash out violently.
Right, and the hundreds of African migrants Libyan rioters murdered in 2000 were heavily armed mercenaries as well. They were so laden with all the guns and missiles Gaddafi gave them that it was a monumental labor on the part of the patriotic citizens of Libya to hoist them up and lynch them.

You are correct in one thing, though, those death sentences given for carrying out lethal attacks on menial workers from Sub-Saharan Africa did incite hatred from the "local" people. :lol:

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I wasn't talking about that event

[Luís Henrique]

Let's not romanticize the supposed "people's movement." They are what they are, not wholly progressive, not wholly reactionary.

Of course. If you look at the motivations behind people's actions, you will find the most confuse mix-up of progressive and reactionary things. And I don't doubt a few people have in mind putting an end to inexistent "Black privilege", as I don't doubt another few have in mind transforming Libyia into a neoliberal capitalist heaven, or into an Iran-like theocracy.

But individual motivations are subordinate to class motivations, aren't they? Now tell me, what classes or class fractions does Gaddafy represent?


Thinking about it this way will do wonders for your sanity when they disappoint you later.

They will quite probably disappoint all of us. This however remains in the future. The point is, Gaddafy should have already disappointed all of us, or anyway all of us who have at any time harboured any delusions about him. The fact that some people cling to so badly disproven delusions is quite worrying, in my opinion.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Don't we love strawmen today?

If you want to accuse me of saying something, you better fucking prove it.

Well, I don't think I am accusing you of anything. You quoted a text, I found it interesting that the text you quoted seems to point in a different direction than you seemed to imply.

Luís Henrique

[danyboy27]

Everyone knows by now that a lot of "average" Libyan citizens are just brown colored KKKlansmen, and it's foolish to delude ourselves by thinking that they are not.


i wont deny that there are racist elements within libya, but to say that all libyan are bigoted the same way klansmen where is an extraordinary claim.

i dont know libya has you do, but in order for you to be able to make such claim require a quite big amount of evidences, more than just a newspaper article about an event that happened year ago.

[khad]

I wasn't talking about that event
So there's no connection with the murderous racism expressed by significant segments of the Libyan population and the current crackdown on "mercenaries?"

Anyone with two brain cells can see that this mercenaries nonsense is just an excuse. Last time all it took was a dispute over a football match to line the streets with black corpses.

This exchange has been revealing, however. IIRC, numerous Russian members were banned off this site for homophobia because they stated that they would not support (not saying anything about joining in the attack on) the Western-funded gay pride marches in cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow. People equated them to fascists and skinheads for holding such reactionary opinions.

Yet here you are, rationalizing lynch mobs because the people doing the lynching are your pet causes for these 15 minutes. I also wouldn't doubt a double standard when it comes to valuing lives.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What? I'm not defending or excusing either case. I'm just not saying that Libyans committing racist acts aren't in all cases the same. You've basically taken two events to make the (racist) assertion that all libyans are racist, and are that way for the same reason. Are there racist elements in Libyan culture? probably, there are everywhere. Has persistent poverty, underemployment, and then the use of foreign mercenaries exacerbated this racism? Obviously. What's so controversial about this? American farmers played Japanese and Chinese farmers against each other, plantation owners played ignorant whites and black slaves against each other, is this new? Talking about the origins of the conflict shouldn't be confused with excusing the crimes. All I'm saying is that it seems Gaddhafi has a lot of culpability in the violence by exacerbating it through the actions of his government. That doesn't make lynching "ok" or whatever you think.

[khad]

All I'm saying is that it seems Gaddhafi has a lot of culpability in the violence by exacerbating it through the actions of his government. That doesn't make lynching "ok" or whatever you think.
Yes, punishing people who incite racial violence is such an exacerbation. :rolleyes:

[khad]

i wont deny that there are racist elements within libya, but to say that all libyan are bigoted the same way klansmen where is an extraordinary claim.

i dont know libya has you do, but in order for you to be able to make such claim require a quite big amount of evidences, more than just a newspaper article about an event that happened year ago.
Let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose you're in a society that just had several hundred people killed for racial reasons following a dispute that sparked over a football match. At least 150 deaths were reported in the October riots against the African migrants.

Kristallnacht killed 91 Jews. Would you or would you not say that Nazi Germany had a thing about race? In this case the only difference in the Libyan case is that the perpetrators were punished by the state.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yes, punishing people who incite racial violence is such an exacerbation. :rolleyes:

So he executed some racists or whatever, that was one decision he made over 40 years. It seems like many of the other decisions he made exacerbated it. You don't get rid of racism by hanging some racists, you deal with its social, economic and cultural roots. It hardly sounds very scientific to ignore the systemic causes of an oppressive system of beliefs. You also don't hire foreign mercenaries from that same ethnic group to attack local people.

[khad]

You also don't hire foreign mercenaries from that same ethnic group to attack local people.
You know, there are over 500,000 Tuaregs living in Libya, right? That's 1/12 of the population. A lot of the people who were taken to be mercenaries were Libyans from Libya who just happened to be black.

But don't let facts spoil your delusions.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

You know, there are over 500,000 Tuaregs living in Libya, right? That's 1/12 of the population. A lot of the people who were taken to be mercenaries were Libyans from Libya who just happened to be black.

But don't let facts spoil your delusions.

Sure, and I saw many of them among the defected soldiers and among the rebels. IF anything does happen to them, that's doubly tragic.

But the statements of Libyans was that soldiers who spoke French or other languages, not Arabic, and carried foreign passports, were among the staunch pro-regime fighters. If that's wrong, so be it, but there's tons of evidence that aside from native libyan blacks, gaddhafi has also brought in soldiers from other parts of africa

[gorillafuck]

It's not hard to prove Qaddafi's government is racist if you look at more recent actual treatment of Palestinians (i.e kick them out) despite his pro-Palestinian rhetoric.

Anywho, more on topic, these racist attacks indicate that the demonstrations have not taken a working class character and instead take a Libyan nationalist anti-Qaddafi character, despite the potential.


You don't get rid of racism by hanging some racists, you deal with its social, economic and cultural roots.Yeah but during a civil war, you censor racism. Going about it your way is viable in times of peace. Not times of war.

And also, what is this bullshit idea that the reason for these racist attacks is due to mercenaries that you're putting forward? Black mercenaries are being used as a scapegoat for racism. Sure, Qaddafi uses African mercenaries. He also is heavily using Serbian mercenaries. I haven't heard about any racist attacks on Serbians for that.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Only serb mercenaries i heard about were in the jetfighters (I wonder if the local libyans even knew who was flying the jets). I don't even know how many Serb expats there are in Libya anyhow. There are obviously lots of migrant blacks from Africa though.


Yeah but during a civil war, you censor racism. Going about it your way is viable in times of peace. Not times of war.What do you mean to "censor racism"? Are you saying in "times of war" you ignore the causes of racism? I don't think there's even a governing agency in Libya right now to "censor" anything, there's no central governing authority yet in the East, only some generalized local councils, and I haven't heard anything about them supporting any violence towards minorities. If they do, that's another matter.

Anyways, I wouldnt write off all of the protesters and rebels just because some revolutionaries, in a moment of total civic breakdown, committed some racist acts. This also happened in South Asia during various revolutions there, and there are still effects of that resentment to this day (for instance, ethnic attacks were common during and even after the Vietnamese, Khmer and Laotian civil wars, and in fact were often endorsed by "revolutionaries"). Again, it's a classic tool of ruling classes to play ethnic groups against each other. This is obviously going to have results in a revolutionary situation. The issue for the Revolution isn't in denying that these forces exist, but in managing to deal with them and counter them in a constructive manner over its historical development.

[danyboy27]

Let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose you're in a society that just had several hundred people killed for racial reasons following a dispute that sparked over a football match. At least 150 deaths were reported in the October riots against the African migrants.

Kristallnacht killed 91 Jews. Would you or would you not say that Nazi Germany had a thing about race? In this case the only difference in the Libyan case is that the perpetrators were punished by the state.

Kristallnacht was an event perpetrated by a small group of radical SA sent by the nazi party. Most of germans didnt took part in those violences and have either ignored out of disgust or opposed to the action taken by the SA thugs.

Same goes for Football holligans in most of the countries of the world.

what is really strange in that story is the unwillingness/inability for the police force to avoid all those death, it show either incompetence or a deliberate act of doing nothing.

[gorillafuck]

Only serb mercenaries i heard about were in the jetfighters (I wonder if the local libyans even knew who was flying the jets). I don't even know how many Serb expats there are in Libya anyhow. There are obviously lots of migrant blacks from Africa though.They are not only flying jets. They are patrolling in the streets. Some are people called "dogs of war", and others are former Red Berets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSO_(Special_Operations_Unit)).

So no, African mercenaries are definitely not the only mercenaries visible.


What do you mean to "censor racism"? Are you saying in "times of war" you ignore the causes of racism?I'm saying censor racism as in, if someone is pushing racism, order them to stop. And yes, in times of armed conflict, radical workers should definitely not allow racist advocacy, it has been and will be used as a tool to divide the working class.

Not that this applies to Libya as neither side is a working class force as of now, and the lack of collective working class politics and unity on the side of the anti-government demonstrators is why racist attacks like this have been happening.

I hope that African migrants in danger succeed in escaping:(

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

They are not only flying jets. They are patrolling in the streets. Some are people called "dogs of war", and others are former Red Berets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSO_%28Special_Operations_Unit%29).

So no, African mercenaries are definitely not the only mercenaries visible.


Interesting, I wonder what the national breakdown of Gaddhafi's mercenaries are. Though I also wonder whether different units with different ethnic origins were also deployed in different locations.

And I still don't think it changes the fact that bringing in outsiders to fight the locals with force exacerbates racial and ethnic disputes against innocent members of that group.



I'm saying censor racism as in, if someone is pushing racism, order them to stop. And yes, in times of armed conflict, radical workers should definitely not allow racist advocacy, it has been and will be used as a tool to divide the working class.

Not that this applies to Libya as neither side is a working class force as of now, and the lack of collective working class unity and on the side of the anti-government demonstrators is why racist attacks like this have been happening.
This makes sense, and I agree that revolutionary councils should clamp down on it. But I think that their failure to do so indicates that this revolution is still young, more than anything else. Things are a mess there, and I imagine there are many factions among the revolutionaries. As you say, there is not enough working class unity yet, but we just don't know enough yet to think that there is none, or that the revolutionary councils themselves support the violence. Considering there are black libyans among the rebels, clearly there is some sense of solidarity, at least amongst some rebels.

Remember that Gaddhafi has basically crippled any serious institutional voices over the past 40 years, and there's no single moral authority behind the revolution. Just a general popular mass, and that is naturally going to include many of the worst and best elements.



I hope that African migrants in danger succeed in escaping:(Same, I heard some harrowing stories from them. But I also hope there are enough enlightened Libyans to criticize the racism of their brothers.

[Sentinel]

Everyone calm down. The topic may be heated, but the personal attacks and flaming in this thread have to stop immediately. This is a general verbal warning to everyone in here who is doing this.

No matter how justified ones anger may feel or actually be, we have agreed upon rules against this kind of thing. If it continues after this post, I will ask an uninvolved admin/global moderator to start handing out infractions (as I'm not technically capable of doing that myself).

[khad]

And I still don't think it changes the fact that bringing in outsiders to fight the locals with force exacerbates racial and ethnic disputes against innocent members of that group.
I ask what is wrong with Tuaregs from Libya joining their armed forces. Most of these so-called mercenaries are Tuaregs who live in Libya or have settled there. Paint them as mercenaries, and all you are doing is validating the scapegoating, racist logic of much of the Libyan population.


And also, what is this bullshit idea that the reason for these racist attacks is due to mercenaries that you're putting forward? Black mercenaries are being used as a scapegoat for racism. Sure, Qaddafi uses African mercenaries. He also is heavily using Serbian mercenaries. I haven't heard about any racist attacks on Serbians for that.
There are plenty of black Libyans who are undergoing racist treatment under the hands of the protest movement, being mistaken for mercenaries and the like.

What's clear from all this just confirms an impression of the general Libyan attitude I've gleaned from a mountain of evidence over the years: if you're black, just don't call yourself Libyan. Gaddafi obviously ran afoul of this sensibility when he made a halfassed attempt to moderate the treatment of black Africans to to at least some minimally acceptable human standards.

[danyboy27]

I ask what is wrong with Tuaregs from Libya joining their armed forces. Most of these so-called mercenaries are Tuaregs who live in Libya or have settled there.


There are plenty of black Libyans who are undergoing racist treatment under the hands of the protest movement, being mistaken for mercenaries and the like.

What's clear from all this just confirms an impression of the general Libyan attitude I've gleaned from a mountain of evidence over the years: if you're black, just don't call yourself Libyan. Gaddafi obviously ran afoul of this sensibility when he made a halfassed attempt to moderate the treatment of black Africans to to at least some minimally acceptable human standards.
Black libyans have been around for a while, maybe you could enlighten us why and how that anti-black racism developped itself over the year, really what engineered it?

Its a geniune question btw, you have a montain of evidences about libya and seem to know everything there is to know about this country, maybe you could help us to understand the phenomenon.

[gorillafuck]

There are plenty of black Libyans who are undergoing racist treatment under the hands of the protest movement, being mistaken for mercenaries and the like.I know. I meant the presence of Black mercenaries is being used to justify racism against Black Libyans and Blacks in general, when in reality there are plenty of white mercenaries there. sorry if that was not communicated well enough.

[khad]

I know. I meant the presence of Black mercenaries is being used to justify racism against Black Libyans and Blacks in general, when in reality there are plenty of white mercenaries there. sorry if that was not communicated well enough.
I was agreeing with you. So many here just excuse the racebaiting, scapegoating tactics that it's downright shameful. FACT: Most black "mercenaries" are just Libyan soldiers with dark skin.


Black libyans have been around for a while, maybe you could enlighten us why and how that anti-black racism developped itself over the year, really what engineered it?

Its a geniune question btw, you have a montain of evidences about libya and seem to know everything there is to know about this country, maybe you could help us to understand the phenomenon.
The entity known as Libya is a recent creation. For much of history it was 3 distinct territories which were amalgamated into one in the postcolonial period. King Idris had convinced Tripolitania, Fezzan, and Cyrenaica that it would be in their interests to join together as one nation. Within these territories were dozens of tribal groups which often did not see common cause, so I you appreciate how precarious this situation always was. Gaddafi was able rule over this tribal confederation by building an advisory council of tribal leaders and granting influential tribes their own factions in the armed forces.

What is illustrated by all this is that the concept of the Libyan nation is only decades old and national feeling, where it exists, is weak. It is thus easy to see a group like the Tuaregs, an ethnicity which also lives in Niger and Mali, as inherently foreign. It is easy to see other Libyans who are historically enemies of one's own group, as inherently foreign.

I fully expect white Libyan tribes to turn on one another the moment Gaddafi's gone. Probably over something like the distribution of oil profits. Obviously so by virtue of geographic location.

[danyboy27]

do you implies that the best shot they have in the future is an autocratic regime like kadafi is currently running?

[khad]

do you implies that the best shot they have in the future is an autocratic regime like kadafi is currently running?
That's just the fact. So long as tribal affiliations matter, whomever rises to the top in this rebel movement is going to do largely the same thing - this precarious balancing act ridden with graft and patronage - to keep the entity known as Libya from fragmenting. As Zeekloid has pointed out, there's little proletarian in character about this movement and a lot about it that is provincial and ethno-chauvinist.

The immediate question after the rebellion is who will have access to the oil profits? There will be some who have it and some who will not.

[Luís Henrique]

He also is heavily using Serbian mercenaries. I haven't heard about any racist attacks on Serbians for that.

There is a significant number of non-combatant Blacks in Libya; there is no such number of non-combatant Serbians in Libya.

I think it is pretty much obvious that if there was a Serbian minority in Libya, we would have read reports of non-combatant people of Serbian origin being "mistaken" (in good or bad faith) for mercenaries, and wrongly murdered by protesters.

And that is what seems to be happening in the case of Black people. Reports are of foreign Blacks being mistreated, not of Black Libyians, so the motive seems national, not racial. And at a point that foreign intervention is an actual concern, it seems difficult to avoid foreigners suffering such kind of backlash.

As most of Gaddafy's armchair supporters would tell us, "revolutions aren't picnics". Innocent people will be killed, not all of them White, and not all of them by counter-revolution.

Luís Henrique

[khad]

And that is what seems to be happening in the case of Black people. Reports are of foreign Blacks being mistreated, not of Black Libyians, so the motive seems national, not racial. And at a point that foreign intervention is an actual concern, it seems difficult to avoid foreigners suffering such kind of backlash.
I would prefer that you stick to what you know. Displays of ignorance just make me sad for you and this site in general.

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/blog/2010/01/06/feature-03


According to Ahmed Bukhari (http://www.libyanbloggers.com/index.php?option=com_contentamp:view=articleamp:id =2989:taboo-amp:catid=35:2008-08-31-22-59-43amp:Itemid=58) (Taboo), everyone agrees that Libya "is one of the most race-oriented societies. You can ask any girl from the area of Zawriya or any Amazigh girl about that. You may also, if you can, explain to a young "Hamri" man in the south why he can't marry a "free" girl; why a Touareg can't drive a public vehicle in the city of Ghadames; why this or that tribe can't deal at all with this or that tribe; or why the residents of that area are despised by the residents of another."

Bukhari cites several examples of what he claims is serious racism in his country. "Perhaps one of the harshest incidents that showed black Libyans how they were treated differently were the acts of violence that broke out years ago against Africans in Libya. Because of a certain problem with immigrant Africans, Libyans would hit and assault anyone with black skin, including black Libyans themselves, who were assaulted by mistake. A poor citizen who was attacked had to yell 'I'm Libyan! I'm Libyan!' Just note the absurdity and humiliation that black Libyans were exposed to during that period of time."

[danyboy27]

That's just the fact. So long as tribal affiliations matter, whomever rises to the top in this rebel movement is going to do largely the same thing - this precarious balancing act ridden with graft and patronage - to keep the entity known as Libya from fragmenting. As Zeekloid has pointed out, there's little proletarian in character about this movement and a lot about it that is provincial and ethno-chauvinist.

The immediate question after the rebellion is who will have access to the oil profits? There will be some who have it and some who will not.

and do you think the same apply to afghanistan has well?

[khad]

and do you think the same apply to afghanistan has well?
In part, but it's nowhere near as bad. At least the national governments there starting with Daoud and followed by the PDPA actively fought tribalism and tried to engage with citizens on a basis of national solidarity.

Whereas Libya just kind of accomodated tribal affiliations and granted them patronage. Any revolutionary movement in Libya will have to do something drastic to break this pattern.

[danyboy27]

dont you have any kind of hope about a coalition governement?

[pastradamus]

There has always been a huge rift between Libyans and so-called Africans or Blacks and Arabs in Libya to be more precise. Im not sure about the underlying causes of this but I do know that there is a lot of hatred on the anti-Gadaffi side for these "africans".

Anti-Gadaffi supporters have accused gadaffi of employing Mercenaries from Chad which has now led to a huge witch-hunt of black people in Libya. When Experts believe that the number of these mercenaries is actually quite small.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/Experts-Disagree-on-African-Mercenaries-in-Libya-117156253.html

Sometimes, when uprisings and revolutions occur, some leftists tend to get swept up in these movements as being truely representive of the people and the working class. But what we must remember is that there is a complex system of tribes, ethnicities and a large amount of foreign immigrants in libya as well as a strong Islamic presence which all make this a complicated revolution. One thing we all agree on is that Gadaffi has to go but could the replacement be as bad? The one good thing we can take out of this present situation is that people are standing up and fighting a corrupt regime - something which should always be admired.

[khad]

dont you have any kind of hope about a coalition governement?
You're welcome to dream.


According to Ahmed Bukhari (http://www.libyanbloggers.com/index.php?option=com_contentamp:view=articleamp:id =2989:taboo-amp:catid=35:2008-08-31-22-59-43amp:Itemid=58) (Taboo), everyone agrees that Libya "is one of the most race-oriented societies. You can ask any girl from the area of Zawriya or any Amazigh girl about that. You may also, if you can, explain to a young "Hamri" man in the south why he can't marry a "free" girl; why a Touareg can't drive a public vehicle in the city of Ghadames; why this or that tribe can't deal at all with this or that tribe; or why the residents of that area are despised by the residents of another."

[danyboy27]

You're welcome to dream.

and what about all those young people propping up that revolution looking for freedom of expression and democracy?

there is a thousand dead or so, most of them young people, i can hardly believe that the tribes will just shrug it off and go back to the old autocratic system right after all of this is over.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I ask what is wrong with Tuaregs from Libya joining their armed forces. Most of these so-called mercenaries are Tuaregs who live in Libya or have settled there. Paint them as mercenaries, and all you are doing is validating the scapegoating, racist logic of much of the Libyan population.


There's nothing wrong with Libyan citizens who happen to be Tuareg Nomads from joining the army. But the presence of Tuaregs in the Libyan army doesn't prove that the Libyan government isn't also bringing in foreign sub-saharan Africans. And the rebels themselves don't seem necessarily opposed to tuaregs in the army; as I said, there appear to be Tuaregs, or at least dark-skinned Libyans, amongst the Rebel forces.


The immediate question after the rebellion is who will have access to the oil profits? There will be some who have it and some who will not.

This is already the case, isn't it? Why is the new system going to be any less equal, considering the rebellion started in Benghazi, where the tribes have felt economically disempowered?

[Luís Henrique]

We don’t know what will happen, what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans.

The lighthouse of "green" socialism, o.

Luís Henrique

[khad]

There's nothing wrong with Libyan citizens who happen to be Tuareg Nomads from joining the army. But the presence of Tuaregs in the Libyan army doesn't prove that the Libyan government isn't also bringing in foreign sub-saharan Africans. And the rebels themselves don't seem necessarily opposed to tuaregs in the army; as I said, there appear to be Tuaregs, or at least dark-skinned Libyans, amongst the Rebel forces.
Yeah, because a few hundred mercenaries is such a praetorian guard.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/Experts-Disagree-on-African-Mercenaries-in-Libya-117156253.html



But other experts are more skeptical. Issaka Souare, senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies, says such a rapid reaction by Mr. Gadhafi is questionable.

"The reason why I doubt the thesis is that we started hearing these claims just the third day of the revolt, and I would imagine it would take some time before you really can go and have recourse to these mercenaries, unless you are foreseeing that your own army is not going to be loyal to you," said Souare.

Souare suggests there may be another explanation for the incidents where sub-Saharan Africans are thought to be involved in attacks on protesters.

"So I don't exclude the possibility through migration that some sub-Saharans have integrated, having taken the Libyan nationality, have integrated the Libyan army, or that Gadhafi at some point created a militia formed mainly of these people, and that these are deployed, and then protesters see these, conclude that no they are mercenaries," noted Souare.
The lighthouse of "green" socialism, o.

Luís Henrique
Or the light of their revolution and their lynch mobs. Pick your poison, but be advised - only one is fatal.

[danyboy27]

but khad, if having someone like gadafi controlling libya is such a good thing, why dont you support him right now?

couldnt be really worst than supporting the former ''socialist'' afghan governement.

[khad]

and what about all those young people propping up that revolution looking for freedom of expression and democracy?

there is a thousand dead or so, most of them young people, i can hardly believe that the tribes will just shrug it off and go back to the old autocratic system right after all of this is over.
A lot smaller in number than the influential Warfla tribe, the largest tribe in Libya and one which used to have a lot of government insiders. They lost that influence in the 90s when they were implicated in a coup attempt against Gaddafi and suffered under purges.

Much of this current rebellion can be seen as the continued Warfla bid for power after their falling out with Gaddafi's government.


but khad, if having someone like gadafi controlling libya is such a good thing, why dont you support him right now?
I simply don't see anything changing all that much. What will come after gaddafi will be better in some ways, worse in others. Overall, things will cancel out. I don't see the reason why all you people are pinning your expectations on this conflict.

couldnt be really worst than supporting the former ''socialist'' afghan governement.Hahaha, nice fucking try. You want to say that the socialist government wasn't any better than the mujahideen and taliban?

[danyboy27]

Hahaha, nice fucking try. You want to say that the socialist government wasn't any better than the mujahideen and taliban?
no, just that i dont consider a governement socialist when summary executions and repression are taking place all over the place.

it dosnt mean that governement wasnt able to feed or shelter their peoples tho, just like many non-socialist autocratic regime trought history.

You can indeed put an army boot in the face of the people while feeding them and shelter them verry well.

[khad]

no, just that i dont consider a governement socialist when summary executions and repression are taking place all over the place.

it dosnt mean that governement wasnt able to feed or shelter their peoples tho, just like many non-socialist autocratic regime trought history.

You can indeed put an army boot in the face of the people while feeding them and shelter them verry well.
Did I ever once say Libya was socialist? My my you have an active imagination.

I on the other hand try to view the situation realistically. The only way to keep Libya from fragmenting as a nation is to sustain well-worn networks of tibal patronage. This is of course barring some drastic intervention into the social fabric, like in Mongolia when they abolished last names to break the power of clan ties.

[danyboy27]

Did I ever once say Libya was socialist? My my you have an active imagination.

I on the other hand try to view the situation realistically. The only way to keep Libya from fragmenting as a nation is to sustain well-worn networks of tibal patronage. This is of course barring some drastic intervention into the social fabric, like in Mongolia when they abolished last names to break the power of clan ties.

i was talking about afghanistan

[khad]

i was talking about afghanistan
Self defense, my boy. Why don't you go to Afghanistan and invite Hekmatyar and his lads for tea and crumpets? He's still around in the mountains somewhere. He may even let you finish a meal before torturing you to death like he did the Maoists.

[danyboy27]

Self defense, my boy. Why don't you go to Afghanistan and invite Hekmatyar and his lads for tea and crumpets? He's still around in the mountains somewhere. He may even let you finish a meal before torturing you to death like he did the Maoists.

so, its right to torture, mutilate and kill people in order to keep the social fabric non-fragmented and in order to exterminate those who do the same?

[khad]

so, its right to torture, mutilate and kill people in order to keep the social fabric non-fragmented and in order to exterminate those who do the same?
I wish I had a time machine so that I could send you back in time to preach your gospel of non-violence to Jews, Roma, and just about every other group labeled subhuman by the Nazis.

Pacifist. Pfeh.

[danyboy27]

I wish I had a time machine so that I could send you back in time to preach your gospel of non-violence to Jews, Roma, and just about every other group labeled subhuman by the Nazis.

Pacifist. Pfeh.


i am not a pacifist, not by a long shot.

i just want to understand your logic, that all.

[khad]

i am not a pacifist, not by a long shot.

i just want to understand your logic, that all.
I like how your sanctimonious first world ass loves to criticize less fortunate people who were forced into a life or death struggle. I don't have to answer a damn thing because as far as I'm concerned you have little basis to even form a legitimate opinion on these matters. Believe me, this much I understand about you.

[danyboy27]

I like how your sanctimonious first world ass loves to criticize less fortunate people who were forced into a life or death struggle. I don't have to answer a damn thing because as far as I'm concerned you have little basis to even form a legitimate opinion on these matters. Believe me, this much I understand about you.

So this is it, beccause i am born in the first world, i am not worthy of your word? what kind of bullshit is that? some kind of fucking third wordism or something? You come from a well off family, i come from a family of lumpen, speak from yourself.

i dont need to live trough hell to understand that sometimes difficult decisions must be taken in order to save lives and ensure stability.

But i think there is a risk when taking difficult decision to to more harm than good, not only to individual, but to also the structure and its stability itself.
Sometimes you want to do good and it end up worst.

[khad]

So this is it, beccause i am born in the first world, i am not worthy of your word? what kind of bullshit is that? some kind of fucking third wordism or something? You come from a well off family, i come from a family of lumpen, speak from yourself.
Trust me, you don't want to play this game, but thanks for admitting your lumpen allegiances, because that explains everything.


But i think there is a risk when taking difficult decision to to more harm than good, not only to individual, but to also the structure and its stability itself.
Sometimes you want to do good and it end up worst.If you're going to cry, at least be halfway coherent.

[danyboy27]

Trust me, you don't want to play this game, but thanks for admitting your lumpen allegiances, because that explains everything.
.
i dont have any allegiances toward the lumpens, i come from this social background, that all, i am a worker. If this is enough for you to just dismiss someone in the same manner you dismiss people for being born in north america and having a white skin, well, lets just say you are nothing more than a more sofisticated kind of bigot.




If you're going to cry, at least be halfway coherent.
I am not going to cry, i just wanted you to understand how i can actually understand why the afghan ''socialist'' governement acted that way.

but i guess for a bigot like you this is too much to ask.

[khad]

I am not going to cry, i just wanted you to understand how i can actually understand why the afghan ''socialist'' governement acted that way.
How does your incoherent blubbering convince anyone of anything?

[danyboy27]

How does your incoherent blubbering convince anyone of anything?

what is so incoherent in what i just said earlier, please tell me.

[danyboy27]

I will try to be more clear about what i just said.

I understand why the afghan ''socialist'' regime did what they did, they where in a crazy situation and they used any mean necessary to ensure prosperity and survival to their peoples, i dont judge them for that, who am i to judge them anyway.

all i am saying is that sometimes, the efforts made in order to make things better (repression, violence etc) can backfire and make things worst rather than fix things.


i am not saying this is the case for afghanistan, it wouldnt be wise to affirm that there was another path, since i am not informed enough on the subject.