South Korea drops "Do like the Egyptians" leaflets in the North

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

SEOUL (Reuters) – South Korea's military has been dropping leaflets into North Korea about democracy protests in Egypt, a legislator said on Friday, but doubts lingered it would trigger calls for change in the tightly controlled country.

As part of a psychological campaign, the South Korean military also sent food, medicines and radios for residents in a bid to encourage North Koreans to think about change, a conservative South Korean parliament member, Song Young-sun, said.

While Seoul's move could cause alarm in the North's leadership, Pyongyang's rigid refusal to respond to demands for change means its people will unlikely rise up to the type of protests against their leaders as in Egypt and Libya, analysts and officials said.

South Korea's defense ministry declined to confirm the move.

"Compared to some of these Arab societies, they have done a much more effective job in maintaining control over the public," said Cho Min of the Korea Institute for National Unification.

"You're never going to be able to predict a collapse until the day it happens, but even then, this is a much more perfectly closed society with control over information and travel."

North Korea maintains tight control over communications including the use of telephones and over movement of people, leaving many in the country unaware of world affairs.

"Officials and authorities are sure to know about it," said Unification Minister Hyun In-taek said in parliament, when asked whether news of public unrest in Libya and in Egypt that toppled its long-time leader had reached the North.

"But I don't believe the public is aware of the situation."

The food and medicines were delivered in light-weight baskets tied to balloons with timers programed to release the items above the target areas in the impoverished North, Song said in a statement.

The food items bore a message that they were sent by the South Korean military and were safe for human consumption but could be fed to livestock to test safety, legislator Song said.

The leaflets also carried news of public protests in Libya against the country's long-time leader, Song's office said.

Analyst Cho questioned the effectiveness of the leaflets, saying most people in the North do not have the mental capacity to understand what freedom and democracy is. "And if there is some criticism about Kim Jong-il, they will only get scared."

South Korea's military has resumed its campaign of speaking directly to North Korean residents after the North bombarded an island near a disputed sea border in November, killing four people including civilians.

Tensions on the Korean peninsula rose to the highest level in years after the artillery attack and the sinking of a South Korean navy vessel in March last year, but the two sides have since renewed a dialogue aimed at easing relations.

Their first attempt at talks broke down earlier in February dealing a setback to plans to resume international disarmament talks with the North.

[Omsk]

Nothing unexpected,like the leaflets sent to the GDR by the western bandits,same type of propaganda,their only objective is to destabilize the country and make it easy pray for imperialist influence,because the protest's would be western-orientated.


saying most people in the North do not have the mental capacity to understand what freedom and democracy is

Bah,reading statements like this will only raise my blood pressure.:sneaky:

[Fulanito de Tal]

If I were in NK, I would send SK a letter thanking them for the free toilet paper, but to send something a little softer next time.

[Princess Luna]

If I were in NK, I would send SK a letter thanking them for the free toilet paper, but to send something a little softer next time.
Good point, its probably the only toilet paper they get.

[Red_Struggle]

I doubt this action would go over well. From what I've studied, most South Koreans do not support military action or destablization of the North, rather they would like their own government to be more open to negotiation.

[Exakt]

Good point, its probably the only toilet paper they get.I should hope so - toilet paper is way inferior to a bidet or a spray hose (which actually clean your ass/whatever versus just smearing it with clean paper --- that's fuckin disgusting), not to mention is such an environmental waste. If I shat on your face would you go get your brilliant toilet paper and wipe your face with it and then go off on your day ignoring the smell of shit on your face, or would you go and wash your face with water?

pro-toilet-paper imperialist dogs

[The Red Next Door]

South Korea is the one, where someone needs to drop "do like the Egyptians" in their capitalist homophobic shithole. They called a republic.

[Crimson Commissar]

Typical capitalist bullshit. Bribing the population of a socialist country with promises of "freedom" and "liberty". Exact same shit that brought down the eastern bloc. North Korea isn't perfect, but the South is absolutely INSANE in comparison.

[Revolutionair]

Confiscated leaflet:

http://www.muppin.com/quilts/egyptian.jpg

[gorillafuck]

North Korea isn't perfect, but the South is absolutely INSANE in comparison.Neither of them are "insane".

[Crimson Commissar]

Neither of them are "insane".
South korea is an absolutely fucked up place to live. Worse than America probably.

[gorillafuck]

South korea is an absolutely fucked up place to live. Worse than America probably.Is it even more insane than, say, Britain?:blink:

On topic, this isn't a huge surprise. How has the DPRK been treating the demonstrations and revolts in the Middle East in their media? I didn't see anything on it on the KCNA website.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Worse than America probably.

ZOMG worse than America?!

I find that hard to imagine.

[Tablo]

Both are fucked up. South Korea has a much more desirable living conditions though.

[Crux]

Both are fucked up. South Korea has a much more desirable living conditions though.
Depends on who you are. Both in the South and the North.

[Tablo]

Depends on who you are. Both in the South and the North.
I guess a party official in the North has it better off than a worker in the South. On average I think the South Korean workers lives more comfortable lifestyles than those in the North.

[pranabjyoti]

I guess a party official in the North has it better off than a worker in the South. On average I think the South Korean workers lives more comfortable lifestyles than those in the North.
Certainly, a prostitute most probably have a better life than an ordinary housewife.

[Chambered Word]

What's up with the pissing match about who has better living conditions between the North or South of Korea? They're both capitalist countries and nearly everyone is missing the point here. The way I see it, South Korea hopes the people in the North will install a bourgeois democratic regime more suited to their interests. Due to the size of the North Korean military and the existance of its nuclear arsenal I still somehow doubt they will try to militarily intervene. I really expected the Marcyites to jump on this as an example of worker's revolutions aiding imperialism and whatnot. When all is said and done, I'd be overjoyed to witness popular movements aimed at overthrowing the government in both states of Korea.

[Crux]

Certainly, a prostitute most probably have a better life than an ordinary housewife.
Misogynist.

[gorillafuck]

Certainly, a prostitute most probably have a better life than an ordinary housewife.The average female worker in the ROK isn't a prostitute.

[The Red Next Door]

Misogynist.

He was being the S, he was not being a Misogynists. chill blondy.

[Geiseric]

I think it's the converse... ROK isn't perfect, but DPRK is insane. I mean we never see any of their people, they aren't allowed to talk with the outside world. The leaders have huge feasts when their people are all starving, they're not communist at all! Shit.

[Omsk]

I mean we never see any of their people, they aren't allowed to talk with the outside world
And what would they hear from the 'rest of the world'
Probably,something like: "Crazy commie bastards!!"
And,by the way,this is not really true,my grandfather went to North Korea and he spoke with alot of people,mostly education - workers.But,he was from a socialist state,so that probably was a factor.He said they were generally friendly,but you could see on their faces that the life was hard.
Stereotypes dont help either.Its not the people's fault that they have bad leader's.

[Geiseric]

Definitely, i'm saying we support the workers, and let them elect who's in the government. Democracy... Y know. But we shouldn't support their government though, i'm wondering myself if they'd be better off with a liberal capitalist government or the one they have now. Also I think Kim Jong Il is more of an iron fisted ruler than il sung, who already had several purges which didn't have trials, from what I gather kim il sung helped with the infrastructure, slightly but still instituting his cult of personality and spending most of the country's money on military, and Jong Il is known for having lavish parties and spending even more millions on the military while the people starve.

[psgchisolm]

Definitely, i'm saying we support the workers, and let them elect who's in the government. Democracy... Y know. But we shouldn't support their government though, i'm wondering myself if they'd be better off with a liberal capitalist government or the one they have now.

depends on what your definition of "better" is. If you mean by terms of freedoms definitely. I'm sure it would be plagued by corrupt politicians, but at least they would feel freer. Anyway I'm anti-Jong. I support the people of the DPRK, but that's about it.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Something similar happened in 1996 with Cuba. Gusanos were leaving from the US in little planes and flying over Havana dropping leaflets. The Cuban government said that if they flew over Cuban airspace again, they would get shot down. The dip-shits flew over Cuba again and got shot down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_to_the_Rescue#1996_shootdown_incident

Now there's a bridge in Miami dedicated to the 4 assholes (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI113886/). The bridge is about a 100 feet long and crosses a canal.

The bridge
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/durancm/brotherstotherescuebridge.jpg

[BlackMarx]

THe South is a shithole but the fact is, some democracy is better then Communism. Its like the great Arsenio Hall says:


"Its a done deal, n*#ga!".

What irritates me is we can't seem to offer alternatives to NK because everyone wants to hold on to Communism like the right holds on to "free markets". Stalinist regimes are the black eye of the left and anyone committed to democracy shouldn't defend them. Kim Jong is no Castro (Who has apologized to his people and has realized their system needed to be changed).

[The Red Next Door]

Something similar happened in 1996 with Cuba. Gusanos were leaving from the US in little planes and flying over Havana dropping leaflets. The Cuban government said that if they flew over Cuban airspace again, they would get shot down. The dip-shits flew over Cuba again and got shot down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_to_the_Rescue#1996_shootdown_incident

Now there's a bridge in Miami dedicated to the 4 assholes (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI113886/). The bridge is about a 100 feet long and crosses a canal.

The bridge
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/durancm/brotherstotherescuebridge.jpg


I am going to pee on that bridge and it gonna make me feel good.

[VILemon]

Its not the people's fault that they have bad leader's.

Well, that says a lot about the degree of control workers there have over their lives.

[Urban Rubble]

Typical capitalist bullshit. Bribing the population of a socialist country with promises of "freedom" and "liberty". Exact same shit that brought down the eastern bloc. North Korea isn't perfect, but the South is absolutely INSANE in comparison.

North Korea "isn't perfect"? Unbelievable that "leftists" are still even having this debate.

Put political ideology aside, look at living conditions in the North vs. in the South, look at working conditions, public health, access to media. By any identifiable standard life in the South is leaps and bounds "better" than life in North Korea.

North Korea is not a worker's state, it is not even a "deformed" worker's state. It's the world's largest gulag and anyone that thinks living in an affluent liberal democracy is somehow "worse" is kidding themselves to the point of delusion.


And what would they hear from the 'rest of the world'

I don't know, so perhaps they can know something about the world beyond the barren field in which they pick turnips for 16 hours a day? So they can contact their relatives in the South that they haven't seen or heard from since the 1950's? So they can hear about what's happening in the Middle East and become inspired to take their revolution back?

Are you actually arguing against the diffusion of information and news?

[Obs]

I don't know, so perhaps they can know something about the world beyond the barren field in which they pick turnips for 16 hours a day?

You don't actually know anything at all about North Korea.

[Omsk]

So they can contact their relatives in the South that they haven't seen or heard from since the 1950's?
That is something which both sides are responsible for.

So they can hear about what's happening in the Middle East and become inspired to take their revolution back?
So they would hear about the imperialist "revolution"?

I don't know, so perhaps they can know something about the world beyond the barren field in which they pick turnips for 16 hours a day?
Maybe you could 'learn' something that is not coming from imperialist propaganda?

Are you actually arguing against the diffusion of information and news?
Those news are the imperialist's main weapon.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I mean we never see any of their people, they aren't allowed to talk with the outside worldThere's this report of a British guy who lived and worked in the DPRK correcting translations for years. He traveled through the country, made friends, and almost (?) had a romantic connection. He was and is not a Communist.

Comrades and Strangers (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0470869763?ie=UTF8&tag=prikeypre-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0470869763) by Michael Harrold


Put political ideology aside, look at living conditions in the North vs. in the South, look at working conditions, public health, access to media. By any identifiable standard life in the South is leaps and bounds "better" than life in North Korea.I don't want to get in the business of picking which class society is "better," but...

Living conditions - Living standards in the north were better of those in the south from the war until the late 70s. That's about 50% of the time the two Koreas have existed.

Public health - There is universal healthcare in North Korea. The quality varies wildly depending on available resources. That's largely a result of the country being embargoed and isolated from most of the world after having lost its main trading partners with the collapse of the Socialist Bloc. The distribution system in place has been credited by the United Nations with limiting the effects of food shortages.

Access to media - The main group of newspapers (조중동 - Chojoongdong) is rabidly and hysterically rightist, and has a history of collaborating with the Japanese, the dictatorships and the current government. A number of books and publications are illegal in South Korea. Many websites are blocked. A student was convicted to prison for making some Cliffite materials available a few years back.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Two_koreas_gdp_1950_1977.jpg

GDP per capita (in 1990 Geary-Khamis dollars) 1950-1977; extracted from Historical Statistics for the World Economy, 1-2003 - available at www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_03-2007.xls (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_03-2007.xls)

"By the 1960s North Korea was the second most industrialized nation in East Asia, trailing only Japan. While a number of internal limitations appeared, such as in the production of consumer goods, the national standard of living was considered by many third-world nations as an alternative to the capitalist model of development sponsored by the United States. Building upon the ruins left by the Korean War, the North Korean economy by the late 1960s provided its people with medical care, universal education, adequate caloric intake, and habitable housing. By the early 60s, many thousand ethnic Koreans in Japan began to migrate back to Korea, North Korea, where they believed they had greater opportunities .... North Korea's policy of self-reliance and the antagonism of America and its allies made it difficult for them to expand foreign trade or secure credit.In the seventies the expansion of North Korea's economy, with the accompanying rise in living standards, came to an end and a few decades later went into reverse. A huge increase in the price of oil following the oil shock of 1974 hurt the economies of countries throughout the world, North Korea among them. By the mid 70s, North Korea faced shortages of food and fuel. As conditions worsened, unrest grew. Dissidents,usually with their entire family were sent to hard labor camps in remote areas. In the 1970s, South Korea passed the North in GNP." - http://koreanhistory.info/NorthKoreanHistory.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://koreanhistory.info/NorthKoreanHistory.htm)

Journal of Third World Studies (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3821/is_/ai_n8879856): In a comparison of the economies of North and South Korea, Eui-Gak Hwang, while acknowledging the difficulty of making definitive comparisons due to the unreliability of statistics from North Korea, nevertheless tries to put economic growth on the peninsula into perspective by considering more than just GNP growth rates. Though the impressive growth rates of the 1980s led some to call the South Korean economy miraculous, and though comparisons today make the North Korean economic landscape look bleak indeed, Hwang maintains that in terms of per capita GNP and real standard of living, the southern economy surpassed that of the north considerably later than many would suppose-perhaps only as recently as the mid-1980s. And while the standard of living in South Korea is much higher today than in the north, Hwang points out that disparities in income, wealth, and spending are much higher as well. By many standards (life expectancy, mortality, literacy, access to housing) there may have been little difference between north and south during the "miracle" days of the 1980s and 1990s. Hwang's chapter is a reminder that questions of equality must be considered separately from questions of sheer growth, but his relatively positive assessment of North Korea ("people in the North appear to have a quite high standard of living with well-balanced rations from the government") would surely have to be revisited in light of recent disastrous famines and other serious economic problems. South Korea is facing its own considerable economic difficulties as well, of course, but there are no signs of mass famine and starvation.

Originally posted on CNN.com seems to have disappeared since: North Korea's economy grew much more rapidly during its "Chollima," or "rapid development," movement than South Korea's. For the first quarter-century of independent government, there were consistent indications that North Korea's per capita output surpassed that of South Korea's.


North Korea is not a worker's state, it is not even a "deformed" worker's state. It's the world's largest gulag and anyone that thinks living in an affluent liberal democracy is somehow "worse" is kidding themselves to the point of delusion.I think there's more some delusion in thinking the ROK is a "liberal democracy" where freedom reigns too.

For example, the National Security Act is still on the books. That makes it illegal to "promote anti-government ideas" or even to fail to report someone else who does.

Eight members of the Socialist Workers League of Korea were just tried and convicted for propagating their ideas (which oppose both North and South Korea): http://www.revleft.com/vb/workers-south-korea-t147804/index.html

[Urban Rubble]

You don't actually know anything at all about North Korea.

Pyongyang does not represent the reality for most people in North Korea. Perhaps my comment was a bit sensationalistic, but the reality is that life for most people in the North is incredibly bleak.


That is something which both sides are responsible for.


My intention is not to glorify South Korea, I have years of personal experience with the country/culture and I really don't have a lot of good things to say about it. Regardless, the South, at least in recent years, has shown a much greater willingness to allow contact between the families.

And regardless of that, the South's boneheaded policies wouldn't excuse the North's.

So they would hear about the imperialist "revolution"?

Yes, the Imperialists are behind each and every one of these uprisings.

The CIA could only dream of having the power to start uprisings of this scale. You people are like the Masonic conspiracy theorists, you've vastly overestimated to power of groups like this to control social phenomena.

And, again, it doesn't matter the details of the news, the fact is that access to information is a human right. Not that you dinosaurs have ever cared about human rights.


Maybe you could 'learn' something that is not coming from imperialist propaganda?

I'd be willing to bet that I have much closer experience with the situation than most around here.

Like I said above, the comment I made was sensationalized for literary effect, sure, but the fact that you think every report of the despair in the North Korean countryside is "propaganda" shows your absolute delusion. There were massive famines in the 90's, that isn't propaganda. They have incredibly low rates of urbanization, that is fact (and save me your Googled statistics, North Korea counts an urban area as 20,000 people, South Korea counts it as 50,000, plus they don't include people who engage in agriculture while living in the so-called city as "urban").

Life in North Korea is bleak on a level you can't imagine. The fact that Western propaganda exaggerates and magnifies these problems doesn't make them any less of a reality.


Those news are the imperialist's main weapon.

In a so-called workers state the news would be the PEOPLE'S weapon. Rather than hide and/or distort the news, information would be discussed, debated and interpreted in a healthy manner that benefits the educational development of the workers and of the youth.

You quislings will support any indignity as long as it wraps itself in a red flag. Nothing about the DPRK is in any way leftist, they've done nothing to empower the working class, to develop Socialism or to fight the West. All they've done is enriched the party elite and clung to their worthless bit of ground. Even their so-called "anti-Imperialism" is nothing but pathetic Korean nationalism, and even that is being generous.

I despise much about South Korea, but at least their people don't starve. At least they have some semblance of dignity.

[Omsk]

At least they have some semblance of dignity.
And they achieve that by kissing American boots?

In a so-called workers state the news would be the PEOPLE'S weapon. Rather than hide and/or distort the news, information would be discussed, debated and interpreted in a healthy manner that benefits the educational development of the workers and of the youth.

Most of the media reports/interviews about the DPRK are imperialist propaganda turned against the people.

Rather than hide and/or distort the news, information would be discussed, debated and interpreted in a healthy manner that benefits the educational development of the workers and of the youth.
How can the youth develop from reading half-truths and lies about themselves.


but the fact that you think every report of the despair in the North Korean countryside is "propaganda" shows your absolute delusion.
Were did i say i think all reports about the DPRK are imperialist propaganda,you are a good demagouge,puting words in my mouth.

[Urban Rubble]

There's this report of a British guy who lived and worked in the DPRK correcting translations for years. He traveled through the country, made friends, and almost (?) had a romantic connection. He was and is not a Communist.

Key part of that being "British guy who lived and worked in DPRK" NOT "DPRK guy who lived and worked in Britain".


Living conditions - Living standards in the north were better of those in the south from the war until the late 70s. That's about 50% of the time the two Koreas have existed.

Well, no, no they weren't. It's true that the North's standard of living was better in those days than it is now, the majority of the country's manufacturing base was in the North at the time of the split, but it is by no means established that their living conditions were "better". And regardless of that, I was talking about history, I'm talking about the present.


Access to media - The main group of newspapers (조중동 - Chojoongdong) is rabidly and hysterically rightist, and has a history of collaborating with the Japanese, the dictatorships and the current government. A number of books and publications are illegal in South Korea. Many websites are blocked. A student was convicted to prison for making some Cliffite materials available a few years back.

Again, I'm not advocating that the South is a utopian wonderland with freedom fries on every plate.

The mainstream media in the South is very rightist, you're correct. The thing is, they also have options for independent media, for access to foreign media, etc. They can start a blog and do their own investigative journalism if they want. Criticism of the state is not really a strong point of Koreans on either side of the border, but at least in South Korea doing so won't get you put in the gulag. I have Anarchist friends in South Korea who are as well versed on current events as anyone I know. Their northern counterparts don't exist.

Sure, there's light internet censorship in the South. The difference being....say it with me now "They have internet in the first place!". Internet access in the DPRK is not available to workers, to the students and government officials who get to use access it's blocked at a level that renders South Korean censorship "quaint" at the least.


I think there's more some delusion in thinking the ROK is a "liberal democracy" where freedom reigns too.

For example, the National Security Act is still on the books. That makes it illegal to "promote anti-government ideas" or even to fail to report someone else who does.

South Korea is a liberal democracy. I never said "freedom reigns" there. I never said life was wonderful, that the South is an industrial powerhouse, that there is 0 poverty or rural misery. What I said was that for the average worker, South Korea remains a nicer place to live.

This isn't a political discussion, I am well aware of the other forces at play, the end of Soviet subsidies in the North, the benefit for the South of having a U.S. military presence. I am not attempting to enter into an all-encompassing debate about the worth of South Korean society vs. the North.

What I am addressing is the denial of reality implicit in the posts claiming that "South Korea is a shithole man, at least the North has universal healthcare". Yes, they do, they also don't have proper medical facilities, proper medical supplies, or the ability to produce either of those, meaning that their Socialism is meaningless to the lives of their workers.

[Urban Rubble]

And they achieve that by kissing American boots?

Your rhetoric and hyperbole are a perfect illustration of your insignificance to any Socialist movement, to you this is all a game, it's all an indulgence of your ridiculously narrow political ideology. To you, the very real fact that workers in the South have enough to eat, have access to paying jobs, have at least basic workers rights, that's meaningless because their government doesn't indulge your Stalinist delusions.

Korean workers and citizens don't have to "kiss American boots", their government may but they do not. In fact, there are regular demonstrations in Seoul demanding an end to the U.S. military presence. When an American soldier was accused of rape there were riots. The people in South Korea may live under exploitative Capitalism, but they are not slaves, they have at least a semblance of political freedom.


Most of the media reports/interviews about the DPRK are imperialist propaganda turned against the people.

I wasn't talking about media reports about the DPRK. I'm talking about people in the DPRK having access to news around the world, it doesn't have to be Western media. Perhaps if the DPRK wasn't at the economic development level of Sub-Saharan Africa they could afford to send their own journalist out into the big-scary Capitalist world to cover stories and put them in their own light.


How can the youth develop from reading half-truths and lies about themselves.

Oh, I'm sorry, when I said that North Koreans should be able to read news about the outside world, I didn't mean to say "North Koreans should be presented with Western media reports about North Korea".

Again, there is no reason why information has to be "half truths and lies", they live in a nation with a supposedly Socialist government, one that has full control over the media, why should it have to be lies? That makes absolutely no sense.

So that's it then, your position is "workers in North Korea don't need access to information because people in other countries tell lies about Socialism". Wonderful, good luck with that.

[Omsk]

to you this is all a game
Dont speak about games,i know how all this is serious,i felt a similiar situation myself,it was almost equally bad.

To you, the very real fact that workers in the South have enough to eat, have access to paying jobs, have at least basic workers rights, that's meaningless because their government doesn't indulge your Stalinist delusions.
I have nothing against the people,i am against the government,that is kissing American boots.


I wasn't talking about media reports about the DPRK
Than say so.

Perhaps if the DPRK wasn't at the economic development level of Sub-Saharan Africa they could afford to send their own journalist out into the big-scary Capitalist world to cover stories and put them in their own light
That is a problem,they should represent their nation in a way that the other's can see they are not deranged maniacs.


Again, there is no reason why information has to be "half truths and lies", they live in a nation with a supposedly Socialist government, one that has full control over the media, why should it have to be lies?
If they would let the foreign media take over,they would see alot of lies.


So that's it then, your position is "workers in North Korea don't need access to information because people in other countries tell lies about Socialism". Wonderful, good luck with that.
No.
They dont need information coming from the western propaganda machine.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Key part of that being "British guy who lived and worked in DPRK" NOT "DPRK guy who lived and worked in Britain".

I was responding to someone who said people in the DPRK don't get to speak to anyone from outside of the DPRK. I provided proof to the contrary.

It usually helps to read what you're replying to.

[Obs]

Perhaps if the DPRK wasn't at the economic development level of Sub-Saharan Africa

You don't actually know anything at all about North Korea.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Well, no, no they weren't.Well, yes, yes they were.

"By the 1960s North Korea was the second most industrialized nation in East Asia, trailing only Japan. While a number of internal limitations appeared, such as in the production of consumer goods, the national standard of living was considered by many third-world nations as an alternative to the capitalist model of development sponsored by the United States. Building upon the ruins left by the Korean War, the North Korean economy by the late 1960s provided its people with medical care, universal education, adequate caloric intake, and habitable housing. By the early 60s, many thousand ethnic Koreans in Japan began to migrate back to Korea, North Korea, where they believed they had greater opportunities ...." - http://koreanhistory.info/NorthKoreanHistory.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://koreanhistory.info/NorthKoreanHistory.htm)

Journal of Third World Studies (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3821/is_/ai_n8879856) - In a comparison of the economies of North and South Korea, Eui-Gak Hwang, while acknowledging the difficulty of making definitive comparisons due to the unreliability of statistics from North Korea, nevertheless tries to put economic growth on the peninsula into perspective by considering more than just GNP growth rates. Though the impressive growth rates of the 1980s led some to call the South Korean economy miraculous, and though comparisons today make the North Korean economic landscape look bleak indeed, Hwang maintains that in terms of per capita GNP and real standard of living, the southern economy surpassed that of the north considerably later than many would suppose-perhaps only as recently as the mid-1980s. And while the standard of living in South Korea is much higher today than in the north, Hwang points out that disparities in income, wealth, and spending are much higher as well. By many standards (life expectancy, mortality, literacy, access to housing) there may have been little difference between north and south during the "miracle" days of the 1980s and 1990s.

It's true that the North's standard of living was better in those days than it is nowAre you disagreeing with yourself here? I'm confused.


the majority of the country's manufacturing base was in the North at the time of the split"U.S. forces in North Korea would destroy most of its industry and agriculture, plus its transportation and communications grid. The ancient city of Pyongyang, the North’s capital, would be mostly destroyed by bombing..." - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/a-state-of-mind/north-korea-and-the-korean-war/fall-1950-china-responds/1361/


but it is by no means established that their living conditions were "better". And regardless of that, I was talking about history, I'm talking about the present.You're saying one class society is "better" than the other, based on living standards. But living standards were superior in the north for the half of the time the two Koreas have existed as separate entities. Circumstances change.

If you followed your logic through, you would have said North Korea was "better" from the war until the late 70's or later.


The mainstream media in the South is very rightist, you're correct. The thing is, they also have options for independent media, for access to foreign media, etc.Unless it's one of the banned publications or blocked websites...


They can start a blog and do their own investigative journalism if they want.And get arrested if in doing so they are deemed to oppose the government in any way.


Criticism of the state is not really a strong point of Koreans on either side of the border, but at least in South Korea doing so won't get you put in the gulag.It will put you in prison instead.

"In 2002, Mr. Lee, a new recruit in the South Korean army, was sentenced to 2 years in prison for having said 'I think Korean separation is not North Korean but American fault' to fellow soldiers. The Military Prosecutor's Office could not charge him for what he had said, but it searched Mr. Lee's civilian house and found various books, and charged him in violation of the NSA Article 7 Clauses 1 and 5." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29


I have Anarchist friends in South Korea who are as well versed on current events as anyone I know. Their northern counterparts don't exist.:rolleyes: How would you know if they did? People in North Korea don't have internet or any way to communicate with people outside of the DPRK, remember?


Sure, there's light internet censorship in the South. Light? I remember running into a dozen blocked websites in one 2-hour surfing session. And that's the least of it. To use a lot of websites and social networking, you have to register with a national ID number, so all of your internet activity can be traced. If you wander into anything "anti-government" you can expect a visit.


The difference being....say it with me now 'They have internet in the first place!'. Internet access in the DPRK is not available to workers, to the students and government officials who get to use access it's blocked at a level that renders South Korean censorship 'quaint' at the least.Definitely. Hundreds of banned books and getting the death penalty for "opposing the government." Very quaint.


What I said was that for the average worker, South Korea remains a nicer place to live. Yeah, I'm not really interested in that convo. I just wanted to correct some of your nonsense. Have fun.

[Urban Rubble]

I was responding to someone who said people in the DPRK don't get to speak to anyone from outside of the DPRK. I provided proof to the contrary.

It usually helps to read what you're replying to.


I read it just fine. Given that some participants on the thread seem to have a hard time understand the reality of life in North Korea I thought it useful to point out that few countries prohibit their citizens from leaving.


Dont speak about games,i know how all this is serious,i felt a similiar situation myself,it was almost equally bad.

When you're so invested in political ideology that all a government has to do to gain your approval is call itself a Democratic Socialist Republic, then yeah, I don't feel that you're really taking the interests of the working class seriously. External conditions aside, there are few who would choose life in North Korea over the South.


Than say so.

I didn't think I needed to explain when I said "News of the outside world" that I meant more than news about North Korea. The fact that we are talking about access to information within North Korea, and I used the word outside world should have made that self evident.


If they would let the foreign media take over,they would see alot of lies.

Who said anything about foreign media taking over? Why do you assume when I advocate for access to information that I'm advocating that everyone go watch CNN?

Furthermore, why do you think that you can handle exposure to Western Mainstream Media but that the average North Korean can't? Personally, I think I have the ability to see through the bullshit presented by the mainstream media just fine, if the North Korean worker can't then his government has done a shit job in raising class consciousness.

Typical vanguardist, your intellectual capabilities can handle the onslaught of Western Propaganda, but if the dumb workers are exposed to it they won't be able to handle it!

If your society can't handle "Anderson Cooper 360" then isn't that an indictment in and of itself? You and I both know the real reason for the censorship, when workers see that they're being given a shitty deal they organize. And organized and educated working class would be the death of the North Korean regime.

[Omsk]

When you're so invested in political ideology that all a government has to do to gain your approval is call itself a Democratic Socialist Republic, then yeah, I don't feel that you're really taking the interests of the working class seriously. External conditions aside, there are few who would choose life in North Korea over the South.
For one,i know how it is in a post-socialist state,for one,i know the horror of the imperialist assault,for one i felt it on my own back.

Why do you assume when I advocate for access to information that I'm advocating that everyone go watch CNN?
Because that is their way,they do things like that,it starts with a liberal and pro-western media group and escalates to a greater level.Pure west propaganda.

Personally, I think I have the ability to see through the bullshit presented by the mainstream media just fine
You dont know what can a utterly hostile media propaganda machine do,you probably never expirienced it.

[Tablo]

For one,i know how it is in a post-socialist state,for one,i know the horror of the imperialist assault,for one i felt it on my own back.
No one disagrees that imperialism is bad. Also, I disagree you ever lived in a Socialist state, but that is a debate for a whole different thread.


Because that is their way,they do things like that,it starts with a liberal and pro-western media group and escalates to a greater level.Pure west propaganda.
Access to information can be access to anything. Whether that be party newspapers or capitalist propaganda. Why should the government have the right to tell workers what they can and can't read?


You dont know what can a utterly hostile media propaganda machine do,you probably never expirienced it.I think we have experienced it since we all live in a Capitalist world. Do you know how bad the US news is? It is non-stop pro-imperialist propaganda.

[Omsk]

I think we have experienced it since we all live in a Capitalist world. Do you know how bad the US news is? It is non-stop pro-imperialist propaganda.
Bah,during and after the war,CNN and the other propaganda machinese bombarded everyone with lies and half-truths.You dont know how it was,when we were off to another state on a holliday,(a couple of years after the war) people would look at us like we were some bloody cannibals,it was horrid really.

I disagree you ever lived in a Socialist state, but that is a debate for a whole different thread
Oh i have lived in one,maybe not a 'true' socialist state. (none of that kind sadly) And yes,as you said,lets leave it at that.

[wq11xxx]

what happen with south korea?

[MellowViper]

I see North Korea as Feudalism marauding itself as Communism. Like Feudalism, they give you a place to work, sleep, they give you food to eat, and you have a leader over you that passes everything along to his kids. You're basically owned with the land you live on, and you can't leave it, just like with a serfdom. Jucheism worst than capitalism. I hope they do collapse.

[Obs]

I see North Korea as Feudalism marauding itself as Communism. Like Feudalism, they give you a place to work, sleep, they give you food to eat, and you have a leader over you that passes everything along to his kids. You're basically owned with the land you live on, and you can't leave it, just like with a serfdom. Jucheism worst than capitalism. I hope they do collapse.
I get the feeling I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread.

[Tablo]

I see North Korea as Feudalism marauding itself as Communism. Like Feudalism, they give you a place to work, sleep, they give you food to eat, and you have a leader over you that passes everything along to his kids. You're basically owned with the land you live on, and you can't leave it, just like with a serfdom. Jucheism worst than capitalism. I hope they do collapse.
Juche is a state-capitalist ideology. There isn't anything feudal about it. They don't claim to be communist either, they claim to uphold Socialism.