Middle East

[BuyOurEverything]

I'm just curious, what do you guys think of the whole Israel Palestine shit. Are the suicide bombers justified or does Israel have a right to defend itself?

[Faceless]

Israel defend itself? Israel is the offender in this disgusting episode. The theft of Palestinian land and the new wall that is coming down on the border are not much of a defence. They are a provocation against the Palestinian people. Any dedicated suicide bomber will still make it through. Don't get me wrong, I'm no supporter of Hamas either, but Hamas would have no volunteers if the Israelis didn't disillusion the Palestinians against their state. The Palestinians are forced into nationalism. The Israeli government is only trying to appease the voters. The cycle of death is proving quite priceless for the regime of Sharon.

[BuyOurEverything]

I think it's obvious that Israel needs to abandon all its settlements, declare a Palestinian state and stop killing innocent Palestinians. However, I think it's disgusting that so many people on the left in America support the Palestinian suicide bombers. There's no way you can talk your way around the fact that they deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as they can. What would their reaction be if somone killed their family and friends just because they live in the USA, a country that has contributed to far more death in foreign countries than Israel has. I do agree that politicians are using the bloodshed to get elected and i think that's equally disgusting.

[Saint-Just]

think it's disgusting that so many people on the left in America support the Palestinian suicide bombers.

The suicide bombers are part of the resistance to the Israeli occupation. If there wasn't a show of resistance the Israeli's would feel comfortable in moving in as far as they wanted. As it is they know that there will be enourmous unrest if they do since at present they are being attacked by Palestinian civilians in the form of suicide attacks.

The Palestinians are forced into nationalism. The Israeli government is only trying to appease the voters. The cycle of death is proving quite priceless for the regime of Sharon.

They are not being forced into nationalism, rather their right to national self-determination is being plundered and they must defend it; defending their nationalism.

I do agree that the policies of Sharon appease voters. With every suicide attack many Israeli's want to see the Israeli military seeking vengeance on Palestinians. There is something greatly wrong with the mentality of the leadership that has seen it right to force such oppression on other people's in the first place. Unfortunately many Israeli civilians suffer rather than thier leadership.

[suffianr]

the whole Israel Palestine shit

A tactful summary, nonetheless. :lol:

I think it will go on for as long as America intervenes in the politics of the Gulf.

[(*]

I don't support the killing of innocent civilians, not in Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Russia, Chechnya, America ... no where.

I find it interesting how the Israelis probably have more support in America than in their own Knesset.

[BuyOurEverything]

If there wasn't a show of resistance the Israeli's would feel comfortable in moving in as far as they wanted.
I don't know, I'd tend to think that if their weren't any suicide attacks, the right wing government wouldn't have the wide support it does to harrass the Palestinian population.

The suicide bombers are part of the resistance to the Israeli occupation.
What country do you live in? I suppose you'd be totally cool with having your entire family slaughtered because of your government's foreign policy, which you quite possibly disagree with and may or not actively be protesting against?

[RevolucioN NoW]

I suppose you'd be totally cool with having your entire family slaughtered

Its not only Israelis being slaughtered, what of the innocent palestinian children killed by apache AH64's or tanks?

Its not as simple as you make it out to be.


The suicide bombers are part of the resistance to the Israeli occupation. If there wasn't a show of resistance the Israeli's would feel comfortable in moving in as far as they wanted.

If there was not a show of resistance then there would be no Justifcation for the ongoing occupation.

:ph34r:

[BuyOurEverything]

Its not only Israelis being slaughtered
Did I ever say it was?

I think it's obvious that Israel needs to abandon all its settlements, declare a Palestinian state and stop killing innocent Palestinians
Fuckin read before you post dumbass.

[Faceless]

The suicide bombers are part of the resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Whilst it is dispicable it is correct. The suicide bombings are a reaction to the right-wing Israeli regime. Whiltst I, and most others, would not support Hamas, they are an inevitable result of an angry people incorrectly venting their anger. The Israeli people might not be to blame and what Hamas do is wrong but if it isn't Hamas then it's Islamic Jihad, if not them then some terrorist X. With no action there would be no reaction. You can't blame any sector of Palestinian society for what is happening.

[BRIN]

I saw on the news the other day that Israel is after Yassar Arafat and want
him assasinated or exiled.Which is very sad because hes the only thing holding palistine together.

What realy saddens me is the fundimentalist muslims twisting the palistinians and turning them into religouse fanatics instead of die hard marxist-lenninist like they used to be.If Arafat goes it will be the next fundimental arab state like the former Taliban,Ayatola and it possibly might end up like the capitalist fundimental hell hole called saudi arabia.


I'm still very pro Palistinian because they still might have some hope,but Israel is a no-hoper most praticing and ALL zionist give me the shits so i have no sympathy for them.

[Faceless]

I saw on the news the other day that Israel is after Yassar Arafat and want
him assasinated or exiled.Which is very sad because hes the only thing holding palistine together.
I don't think that they could get rid of Arafat. The very idea that Israel had principly agreed to kick him out sent hundreds of Palestinians spontaneously to his defence. Even if in exile though, we won't be seeing (/hearing) the last of him.

[cubist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:30 AM

The suicide bombers are part of the resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Whilst it is dispicable it is correct. The suicide bombings are a reaction to the right-wing Israeli regime. Whiltst I, and most others, would not support Hamas, they are an inevitable result of an angry people incorrectly venting their anger. The Israeli people might not be to blame and what Hamas do is wrong but if it isn't Hamas then it's Islamic Jihad, if not them then some terrorist X. With no action there would be no reaction. You can't blame any sector of Palestinian society for what is happening.
you say that but none of us condone the actions of 911 yet most are quitely pleased with the result (not the loss of innocent lives) the falling down a substantial capitalist structure.

at th same time you are right it isn't paestines fault at all it is americas fault for giving israel a reason to figh.t americas war on terrorism was all the excuse the israelies needed.

[caliban]

If l didn&#39;t have a Merkava main battle tank, an F-15, or any of the US supplied toys that the Israelis have and somebody came and ejected me from my home, what am l supposed to do? Do l sit still, say nothing and hope that the world body will come to bat and defend my rights as a human being? I hate to dwell on the past but as a world body we don&#39;t have a shining record. If l were an Israeli, trying to keep a homeland for my children, and the genrations to come, how could l possibly sit idle while people bomb the shit out of urban centres that l live in? There is no easy solution, or bull shit, vote buying, road map to peace in the middle east. The missing, and crutial element, are two willing peoples that are willing to sit across from each other and be willing to do what is needed to find at least a tempoary solution. I say temp because this is something drilled into minds of generations, and can&#39;t be decided in a week at Camp David, it is a belief system that has to be changed over time. Until you see all of the sides willing to accept that the other exists, there will be no peace. Just my humble opinion. <_<

[cubist]

good point

[il Commy]

"For a Truly Socialist Peace&#33;"
http://www.geocities.com/bankial/intifadaeng.htm

A statement by ICYL, I support it. Yet it is abit abstract, but there&#39;s not alot of stuff in English. If comrade Amzalek would have translated his great article "Two States For Two Peoples - Revolutionary Dialectics" that&#39;d be good, but unfortunatly he didn&#39;t.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:25 AM
If l didn&#39;t have a Merkava main battle tank, an F-15, or any of the US supplied toys that the Israelis have and somebody came and ejected me from my home, what am l supposed to do? Do l sit still, say nothing and hope that the world body will come to bat and defend my rights as a human being? I hate to dwell on the past but as a world body we don&#39;t have a shining record. If l were an Israeli, trying to keep a homeland for my children, and the genrations to come, how could l possibly sit idle while people bomb the shit out of urban centres that l live in? There is no easy solution, or bull shit, vote buying, road map to peace in the middle east. The missing, and crutial element, are two willing peoples that are willing to sit across from each other and be willing to do what is needed to find at least a tempoary solution. I say temp because this is something drilled into minds of generations, and can&#39;t be decided in a week at Camp David, it is a belief system that has to be changed over time. Until you see all of the sides willing to accept that the other exists, there will be no peace. Just my humble opinion. <_<
Very true... The UN certainly has not come forward to help Palestine any further than making non-binding resolutions against Israel. Any attempt at action must come through the Security Council, where the United States has automatic veto power. Ethnic groups that have not fought for independence using violent means, such as the Armenians, do not get any attention internationally for their struggle at all.

The suicide bombings do keep the plight of the Palestinians in the headlines. Unfortunately, U.S. media twists the story to how the evil Muslim fanatics are terrorizing the defenseless, upstanding Israelis. In other words, the Palestinians become the Black Hats in a one-dimensional, good vs. evil cowboy movie.

[floyd21]

Israel is a no-hoper most praticing and ALL zionist give me the shits so i have no sympathy for them.
i understand that the palastinans are in a very bad situation and allmost all sane israelis think they shuld get their freedom but it is childish and stupid to think you know enogh about the situation to have this raceist upinion on ""zionist"" ,there is no such thing, the isreli people ( most of them ) dont want the palastinan lands and allmost all of them want to break the settelments but the israeli people also belive that the palastinans want yafo haifa and most of israel too like thay did in 1948 when the un splited the contry (that was under english occupation) .
the hamas is a hate group they know that they wont get freedom with the suiside murderers the only benefit the get is a political benefit . they buy the street with isreli blood and making the peace far as can be (if there was peace the hamas would have loose all its power).

[Blasphemy]

for all you idiots supporting suicide bombers...

a peaceful palestinian resistence (mass strikes and the like), would have enjoyed vast support among the Israeli public. Afterall, most people don&#39;t have an interest in the occupied territories. controling 3.5 million people with the use of military force is expensive and dangerous, and so people, with the threat of suicide bombers removed, wouldn&#39;t want to risk their lives in Ramallah and Gaza. But as long as the threat remains, people belive that by serving in these palestinian cities, they are helping their country. by removing the threat, you can remove motivation to serve in the territories, and thus lower support rates for right wing leaders. in the peak of violence, hard liner Sharon was elected. when violence was low in 1992, peaceful Rabin was elected. you can figure it out.

[crazy comie]

Israel should move its armed forces out of palistien and go Fuck off and fuck bush.

[chamo]

Well said there, Mr. Crazy.


in the peak of violence, hard liner Sharon was elected. when violence was low in 1992, peaceful Rabin was elected. you can figure it out.

I agree comrade; mass peaceful rising that cripple economies do far more than small minorities creating a circular wave of violence.

[Hatchet]

Hey,
I don&#39;t wanna get into the establishment of Israel, cos it&#39;s there and it aint moving. What the real problem is is Terrorism. Terrorism is bad enough if carried out by some crazed individual or group, but when it is the official policy of an entire nation all other terrorism pails in comparison.

Hatchet

[caliban]

Tell me Hatchet, do you know why the UN(British) left there in the first place? Try looking back and seeing WHO bombed the UN out of Palestine, and it wasn&#39;t the Palestinians. And the occupited territories remain so because of the Ultra-orth jews who think that God gave them the land. Non-violent opposition to the occupations would&#39;ve helped them at first but the Palestinians were fucked from the onset. Sorry but somebody has to give an honest answer as to why these people using their bodies as a weapon is a bad thing. :angry:

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Firstly, I&#39;ve been off the posts for a while so it&#39;s nice to come back and see you all still at it&#33;

Hatchet, I&#39;ve not come across you on here before, but your last post was appaling. Answer me this, what is terrorism? I know by reading your last post that what you will answer to that is the media-given definition of the word, not the true definition. And the difference?... Well, the media-given definition calls it terrorism even when an attack is made as a justified defence against an enemy. I started a thread on here a long time ago about the word "Terrorism". It is used far too loosely and far to quickly these days and the people who use it to label people or events often don&#39;t even know what it means.

As for the topic of the post, well many of you have already made my point. The Palestinian freedom fighters attack only to defend themselves and getback what is rightfully theirs. Just as someone has already said, I&#39;m no supporter of Hamas or any particular organisation, but if an attack is made justifyably, then I am in support of that. The Palestinian people should be being prasied for their heroic efforts against the Israeli goverment. Not just the suicide bombers etc. But the whole people. Instead, they are painted in a picture in media&#39;s the world over, and all the picture shows is inferior beings who are just troublesome and a bother to the "civilized" world.

What caliban says is true. It&#39;s too late for peaceful opposition now. Violence is always justified as a last resort, even Gandhi admitted that. I&#39;m not saying the Palestinian rebels tried peaceful opposition to the extent Gandhi did, but at this stage, their violent rebellion is neccessary.

Unfortunately though, for the forseeable future anyway, it does not look like any Palestinian opposition will change it. Israel has the powers behind them. The only way anything is going to change is if the masses of this world wake up and see what is going on. If the people inthe powerful countries backing Israel all realise that a change is needed, then the Palestinian people may get somewhere. Unfortunately, most of those people in the "more developed" countries are more concerned with what Britney Spears did last night than how many Palestinian people suffered last night. More concerned with how Bennifer&#39;s wedding is over now than they are about how many Palestinian families have been savaged and broken up by the brutality of the Israeli forces.

[caliban]

:( All l will say about the brutality the Israelis inflict can be seen in a Time article(sorry, l can&#39;t remember when, but not that long ago....within the last 2 years) written on the checkpoints in the occupied territories. With large colour photos a Barrett Light 50 can be seen on a sandbag in one of these checkpoints. 50 cal. rounds were banned by the Geneva Convention because they were deemed cruel. They can be used against planes, trucks, bunkers, etc., but not against ground troops. Have any of you ever seen what a 50 cal. round does to a human body? Don&#39;t see that on CNN do you. I doubt any of us knows what to do in Palestine. Logic has left that place long ago, and now the mob rules.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Says it all my friend.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 05:56 PM
a peaceful palestinian resistence (mass strikes and the like), would have enjoyed vast support among the Israeli public.

A mass strike where exactly? Most Palestinians are held in the Gaza Strip and West Bank by IDF soldiers. Most can&#39;t get to whatever jobs they may have.

What alternative is there? To stop harvesting olives, and just let IDF bulldozers destroy the trees?



controling 3.5 million people with the use of military force is expensive and dangerous, and so people, with the threat of suicide bombers removed, wouldn&#39;t want to risk their lives in Ramallah and Gaza. But as long as the threat remains, people belive that by serving in these palestinian cities, they are helping their country.

Three years of the Intifada and the number of IDF refuseniks continues to grow. The IDF and settlers have had no problems is shooting peaceful demonstrations off the streets but the Intifada has forced many people to rethink what exactly it is that Israel is doing.



in the peak of violence, hard liner Sharon was elected. when violence was low in 1992, peaceful Rabin was elected. you can figure it out.

He didn&#39;t last particularly long, did he? He was a peaceful prime minister who was assassinated by a right-wing zionist. Who&#39;s to say the same fate wouldn&#39;t befall any other "peaceful" prime ministers?

[BuyOurEverything]

Sorry but somebody has to give an honest answer as to why these people using their bodies as a weapon is a bad thing.

Because it kills innocent people, it doesn&#39;t solve anything and it gets more right wing fuckers in Israel elected. Think about it, since the beginning of the Intifada has anything been accomplished? Has anything improved in the Palestinian territories?


50 cal. rounds were banned by the Geneva Convention because they were deemed cruel. They can be used against planes, trucks, bunkers, etc., but not against ground troops. Have any of you ever seen what a 50 cal. round does to a human body?

And what does the Geneva convention have to say about deliberately bombing civilians?




in the peak of violence, hard liner Sharon was elected. when violence was low in 1992, peaceful Rabin was elected. you can figure it out.


He didn&#39;t last particularly long, did he? He was a peaceful prime minister who was assassinated by a right-wing zionist. Who&#39;s to say the same fate wouldn&#39;t befall any other "peaceful" prime ministers?

What&#39;s your point? Does the fact that someone is assasinated mean their ideas are worthless and nobody with similar beliefs should be elected? Che was killed by right wingers, I guess that means communism and revolution will never work.


Now for all the people that support the suicide bombers and live in the States, answer this: Given the US&#39;s foreign policy and our occupation of other countries, I suppose you would be completely cool with having your friends and family slaughtered and would completely support the people who killed them?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:39 PM
What&#39;s your point? Does the fact that someone is assasinated mean their ideas are worthless and nobody with similar beliefs should be elected? Che was killed by right wingers, I guess that means communism and revolution will never work.
Israel is an apartheid state. There are those whose lives benefit from the way things are, and will fight to maintain that status quo. The same has happened, and is happening, with whites in South Africa and protestants in Northern Ireland.

Another Israeli politician, like Rabin, who is willing to work on changing the situation may as well wear a bullseye. These kinds of people are considered traitors by those who can&#39;t accept change.

[BuyOurEverything]

Israel is an apartheid state. There are those whose lives benefit from the way things are, and will fight to maintain that status quo. The same has happened, and is happening, with whites in South Africa and protestants in Northern Ireland.

Another Israeli politician, like Rabin, who is willing to work on changing the situation may as well wear a bullseye. These kinds of people are considered traitors by those who can&#39;t accept change.

Well there&#39;s always going to people who disagree with the leader of a country but the fact is he was elected so obviously a lot of people do agree with his views. The fact that a leader is assasinated means nothing except that a guy that hates him got past security.

[caliban]

My point BOE, is this, now pay attention, take away the ability to use your body as weapon and what do they have left? Being shot in the streets. If you want the truely gross Israeli face look at Beirut, look at what was done to these people in the camps set up by the IDF. Read "From Beirut to Jerusalem(sp)", writen by an American Jew. Look into the human rights reports of the IDF closing off the exits to the camps, not letting the Palestinians out, only letting the Christian militias in for 3 days. Oh, wait, there is no report. Starting to get it yet? :angry:

[BuyOurEverything]

Your sidestepping the issue. I&#39;m not denying that a lot of what the IDF and the Sharon Admin. does is quite horrible but that doesn&#39;t justify the suicide bombers.

First, they only kill and injure innocent Israelis, many of which are children. They don&#39;t even make an attempt to target political or military tagets.

Second, they accomplish nothing except to give right wing governments more support to do whatever they want in the occupied territories.

[caliban]

You are very correct in what you say BOE, but what l am trying to put forth is the futility the Palestinians face. Attack a military target? For comparison, take a water gun under your jacket, put your hand on it and walk toward the White House at a quick pace......see the futility? Sounds pretty dumb. Like l said, l do agree with what you say, but what are they supposed to do? :(

[crazy comie]

I think the infatada shuld only attack millitary or israele goverment buldings/pepole but there probably to well deffended.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

BOE, what do you think the Palestinians can do?

Of course you are right in saying the people being killed are innocents, but the blood of those innocents is on the hands of their own government. They provoke the attacks. The freedom fighters cannot get at the government, so they have to attack innocents. It is a war.

[BuyOurEverything]

You are very correct in what you say BOE, but what l am trying to put forth is the futility the Palestinians face. Attack a military target? For comparison, take a water gun under your jacket, put your hand on it and walk toward the White House at a quick pace......see the futility? Sounds pretty dumb. Like l said, l do agree with what you say, but what are they supposed to do?

I do see the futility and it&#39;s a pretty sad situation but I stil think the Palestinians should at least try to pursue other options and an end to the occupation will never come from continued suicide bombings. I also think that if the bombings stopped it would be easier to get a government elected that would end the occupation and create a Palestinian state.


Of course you are right in saying the people being killed are innocents, but the blood of those innocents is on the hands of their own government. They provoke the attacks. The freedom fighters cannot get at the government, so they have to attack innocents. It is a war.

That&#39;s pretty easy to say when it&#39;s someone else&#39;s country, isn&#39;t it?

[caliban]

For the most part l think we&#39;re all ont the same page with the middle east and the direction it has been going isn&#39;t working. What do you think BOE, what are some possible sollutions? Not being sarcastic, l really want to hear your views. :)

[BuyOurEverything]

I think first, the Israelis and Palestinians need good leaders that are interested in solving the situation and are willing to talk to each other. The Israelis need to pull out of Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights and declare a Palestinian State. The US and other countries need to give aid to the Palestinians to build their country. Jeruselem needs to be shared by both countries. The Palestinians need to stop blowing shit up. I&#39;m really not sure how that would all come about but that&#39;s what needs to happen. It has to start with good leaders on both sides though I believe. What do you think?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Of course, BOE, you are right. You are right in what you want to happen. But it has gone passed the stage where that can happen without the death of innocents. Like I said, the blood of the innocent Israeli&#39;s is on the hands of their own government because they have not and will not grant the Palestinian people what is rightfully theirs.

[caliban]

ok, BOE, l get what you mean. How about only those countries involved sit down and work out a lasting settlement plan. Perhaps part of the problem in finding something lasting is trying to satisfy ALL countries at the table and not the ones involved. It would be nice to have a mediating party but who? The problem with something like peacekeepers is that there is no peace to keep. I guess if both side would agree to a seclusion zone and the withdraw of the IDF from the occupied territories, it could be a start. Any policing based on bombing attacks would have to be handled by the "peacekeepers" but convincing the Israelis to go along with it would be difficult to say the least and in a way you can&#39;t blame them. The "leap of faith" needed by both sides would be the hardest part. Shit, no easy solution is there? :(

[crazy comie]

This situation is so anoying

[BuyOurEverything]

This situation iso anoying

Wow that was intelligent.


ok, BOE, l get what you mean. How about only those countries involved sit down and work out a lasting settlement plan. Perhaps part of the problem in finding something lasting is trying to satisfy ALL countries at the table and not the ones involved. It would be nice to have a mediating party but who? The problem with something like peacekeepers is that there is no peace to keep. I guess if both side would agree to a seclusion zone and the withdraw of the IDF from the occupied territories, it could be a start. Any policing based on bombing attacks would have to be handled by the "peacekeepers" but convincing the Israelis to go along with it would be difficult to say the least and in a way you can&#39;t blame them. The "leap of faith" needed by both sides would be the hardest part. Shit, no easy solution is there?

No not really but that doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t try. I know that most of Israel does want peace and a a significant portian believe that the Palestinians should have their own state and Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories but when bombs are going off and people are dying, voters get scared and have a kneejerk reaction to vote for the person who will protect them and stop the bad stuff from happening. Similar thing on the Palestinian side, and orginization comes along that says they&#39;ll support you and your family and you&#39;ll be a hero all you have to do is blow yourself up.

I don&#39;t know who the intermediary would be, it seems there&#39;s not many people who are unbiased in this. I really think both countries need to have good leaders though. Leaders that are willing to talk to each other is a neccesity. I think that is the first thing that needs to happen. Maybe someone should rig the Israeli elections. Don&#39;t know how&#39;d you&#39;d do it on the Palestinian side.


Of course, BOE, you are right. You are right in what you want to happen. But it has gone passed the stage where that can happen without the death of innocents. Like I said, the blood of the innocent Israeli&#39;s is on the hands of their own government because they have not and will not grant the Palestinian people what is rightfully theirs.

So... do you support the suicide bombers? What do you think is the solution?

[Hatchet]

Hey,
If you ask me the Israelis have been reading the &#39;roadmap&#39; upside down.

Hatchet

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

BOE, I support the sucicide bombers because they are fighting injustice.

And fighting injustices is something that should be supported by all freedom loving people.

[BuyOurEverything]

I support fighting injustice but i don&#39;t support slaughtering innocents under the guise of fighting injustice

[crazy comie]

i agree

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I have read some explanations that say the Palestinian suicide bombers are the only reason that Israel&#39;s oppression is even televised. If the killing was one-sided, some feel that the media would ignore it. The Armenians, from what I understand, are one of the largest ethnic groups in the world (the largest maybe?) that do not have their own state. Their plight is not examined, possibly because they do not have dramatic terror bombings. The method of peaceful protest always runs the risk of being ignored.

[FabFabian]

Actually Marxist....the Armenians did have terrorists of a sort. In 1985 or 86 some people claiming to be Armenian freedom fighters threaten to set off a bomb on the Toronto transist system. There were cops everywhere during that week. I tried to get my mother to let me off of school, but she said "terrorists or no terrorists ur getting ur arse off to school." :lol: Nothing happened btw.

Yes it is sad about Israeli children dying from terrorist bombs, but that does not equate to the suffering and the murdering of Palestinian children. Oh but I forget all the time that Israeli lives are worth 10 Palestinian ones.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

FabFabian,
Were those Armenians isolated, or have there been other violent movements? One group of less than 100 is hardly the equivalent of a group like Hamas in occupied Palestine. One event is hardly the equivalent of decades of suicide bombers. If there are other occurences, please name them (I would like to know if I am way off). Otherwise, my original post is still correct--the rule is good, once the exception is identified.

[Blasphemy]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 20 2003, 11:09 PM
BOE, I support the sucicide bombers because they are fighting injustice.

And fighting injustices is something that should be supported by all freedom loving people.
Socialsmo, I am a freedom loving person, but my freedom is denied of me when the bus I&#39;m taking to school everyday explodes. Luckily for me, I was sick that day, and so my life were saved. I believe that injustice must not be tolerated, and I believe that it is unjust when a 12 and 13 year-olds die on their way to school. Injustice must be fought against, wether it is done in Israel or in Palestine.

When a bus you&#39;re riding blows up, I want to see you justify it. When your parents die because they were shot in the middle of the street by a guy "fighting injustice", I want to see you praise the man who did it.

[Zombie]

Interesting.

Take the land off a people, claim it your own, and then expect them to just go away? While I don&#39;t fully support these acts of so called terrorism from the Palestinian side, I don&#39;t see what other means of defense they&#39;ve got.

Sure, you got your flashy Israeli F16s, American made high-tech assault rifles, unlimited stocks of heavy ammunition and the fucking ATOMIC BOMB, but god forbid, having suicide bombers fight for the cause is nothing less than plain Muslim savagery...

[BuyOurEverything]

I have read some explanations that say the Palestinian suicide bombers are the only reason that Israel&#39;s oppression is even televised. If the killing was one-sided, some feel that the media would ignore it. The Armenians, from what I understand, are one of the largest ethnic groups in the world (the largest maybe?) that do not have their own state. Their plight is not examined, possibly because they do not have dramatic terror bombings. The method of peaceful protest always runs the risk of being ignored.

So the continuous murder of innocent people is justified in order to manipulate the sensationalist western media? It doesn&#39;t seem that extensive media coverage has done the Palestinians any good anyways now has it?


Socialsmo, I am a freedom loving person, but my freedom is denied of me when the bus I&#39;m taking to school everyday explodes. Luckily for me, I was sick that day, and so my life were saved. I believe that injustice must not be tolerated, and I believe that it is unjust when a 12 and 13 year-olds die on their way to school. Injustice must be fought against, wether it is done in Israel or in Palestine.

When a bus you&#39;re riding blows up, I want to see you justify it. When your parents die because they were shot in the middle of the street by a guy "fighting injustice", I want to see you praise the man who did it.

Thank you, this is exactly what I&#39;ve been saying all along. Would anyone who lives in the US support the people who slaughtered their friends and family as a form of protest against the US foreign policy? Which by the way is far bloodier than that of the Israelis.


Interesting.

Take the land off a people, claim it your own, and then expect them to just go away? While I don&#39;t fully support these acts of so called terrorism from the Palestinian side, I don&#39;t see what other means of defense they&#39;ve got.

Sure, you got your flashy Israeli F16s, American made high-tech assault rifles, unlimited stocks of heavy ammunition and the fucking ATOMIC BOMB, but god forbid, having suicide bombers fight for the cause is nothing less than plain Muslim savagery...

Without these weapons, Israel would have been destroyed by the surrounding Arab states days after its creation. The fact that someone has better weapons doesn&#39;t mean they are wrong. Does the fact that you have a bigger gun than me justify me killing your family? How is Palestinian suicide bombings a means of defence? Who is it defending? Never once have they targeted anything other than innocent civilians and with every bombing, the Israeli government gets more support to conquer more Palestinian land and opress its people even more.

[Blasphemy]

Does anybody here really think that the average israeli sees a news report about a terrorist attack in which 12 civilians were killed, and thinks to himself "that savage and senseless killing shows me that the Palestinian people are oppressed by the Israeli government whick stole Palestinian land illegaly, and therefore, Israel must immediately withdraw from the territories and give back the land to the unfortunate Palestinian people", or do you think he says to himself "the Palestinians are savages, and so it is the duty of the Israeli government to fight them by all means". I&#39;d go with the second option, and anybody who says otherwise has a very distorted conception of reality. So if so, how exactly is suicide bombing efficient? Afterall, it is the average Israeli who decides who the next Prime Minister is going to be...

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 01:03 AM

I have read some explanations that say the Palestinian suicide bombers are the only reason that Israel&#39;s oppression is even televised. If the killing was one-sided, some feel that the media would ignore it. The Armenians, from what I understand, are one of the largest ethnic groups in the world (the largest maybe?) that do not have their own state. Their plight is not examined, possibly because they do not have dramatic terror bombings. The method of peaceful protest always runs the risk of being ignored.

So the continuous murder of innocent people is justified in order to manipulate the sensationalist western media? It doesn&#39;t seem that extensive media coverage has done the Palestinians any good anyways now has it?

[...]
Without these weapons, Israel would have been destroyed by the surrounding Arab states days after its creation. The fact that someone has better weapons doesn&#39;t mean they are wrong. Does the fact that you have a bigger gun than me justify me killing your family? How is Palestinian suicide bombings a means of defence? Who is it defending? Never once have they targeted anything other than innocent civilians and with every bombing, the Israeli government gets more support to conquer more Palestinian land and opress its people even more.
I am not saying that I support suicide bombers for the publicity they generate. All I am saying is that, if not for the suicide bombers, I doubt we would have as much attention paid to the Israeli occupation as we have had. It is fair to say that all of the attention has not yet transferred into any kind of aid or help to the Palestinians, at least not in any significant way.

On the latter part of what I quoted:

The would-be suicide bombers do not carry out their attacks simply because the Israelis have such a powerful war machine. They attack because the Israelis are USING that war machine to kill Palestinians. Palestinians are not getting shiny new weapons of death from the United States, so they cannot match firepower with the Israeli army.

Suicide bombers are the only effective means they have to hit back. I suppose this begs the question of whether the Palestinians should be hitting back, but I believe (based on Israel&#39;s history of aggression) that if they faced less resistance they would simply occupy more Arab land and expel more native Palestinians. It is true that attacks from Hamas and other militants does provide a cover for Israeli military maneuvers--the veil of "counter-terrorism." If not for this armed resistance, I suspect that what are now the occupied Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would be just additional provinces of Israel--their Arab residents dead or ejected into Jordan or other countries.

[Zombie]

BoE, you leave me breathless. You remind me of bush, when he said once that the PLO and it&#39;s affiliates should desarm and give up their "terrorist activities" before any peace could be achieved. FUCKING RIGHT EH&#33; Let the Palestinians give up their struggle, promise them a bright peaceful future, then exterminate them once and for all : weaken your ennemy so you can more easily kill it. Right BoE?

Do you really want Hamas to stop it&#39;s suicide bombings? Then give me other alternative means of defence then&#33;
(And you bloody well know what I&#39;m talking about when i say "defence"... )

Who is the oppressed here, BoE? The Palestinians? Or the Israelis?

[BuyOurEverything]

BoE, you leave me breathless. You remind me of bush, when he said once that the PLO and it&#39;s affiliates should desarm and give up their "terrorist activities" before any peace could be achieved. FUCKING RIGHT EH&#33; Let the Palestinians give up their struggle, promise them a bright peaceful future, then exterminate them once and for all : weaken your ennemy so you can more easily kill it. Right BoE?

Do you really want Hamas to stop it&#39;s suicide bombings? Then give me other alternative means of defence then&#33;
(And you bloody well know what I&#39;m talking about when i say "defence"... )

Who is the oppressed here, BoE? The Palestinians? Or the Israelis?

Oh, you&#39;re right, you caught me. All this talk of opposing the killing off innocent children was really just a cover for my diabolical plot of killing off all the Palestinians.

You have failed to adress a single one of my questions.
1. How do the suicide bombings help the Palestinians?
2. How is the murdering of innocents justified?
3. Would you praise the people who murdered your friends, parents, borthers, sisters and children as brave freedom fighters?

Not to mention: Do you even know why the Palestinian territories were occupied in the first place? I&#39;ll give you a hint, it wasn&#39;t Israel&#39;s desire to opress the Palestinians. Doing NOTHING would be better for the Palestinians than continuing the suicide bombings. Picking off innocents in the street is not a revolution. Personally, I think a peacful Palestinian protest in Israel would be beneficial. Also, orginized attacks on Israeli soldiers who are mistreating Palestinians would be a good start.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 12:45 AM
Not to mention: Do you even know why the Palestinian territories were occupied in the first place? I&#39;ll give you a hint, it wasn&#39;t Israel&#39;s desire to opress the Palestinians. Doing NOTHING would be better for the Palestinians than continuing the suicide bombings. Picking off innocents in the street is not a revolution. Personally, I think a peacful Palestinian protest in Israel would be beneficial. Also, orginized attacks on Israeli soldiers who are mistreating Palestinians would be a good start.
The occupation of the Palestinian territories has to do with military domination, and fundamentalist Zionists wanting all of the holy land for the Jews. Those motives will clearly oppress Palestinians but that has not stopped militarists or Zionists from carrying this out.

I am not sure about the success of suicide bombers, but I do think peaceful protests in Israel sound unrealistic. The Israelis control whether Palestinians are even allowed into Israel. I do not think a mass protest could be organized without bypassing security, which would give the military an excuse to massacre the protestors.

[Zombie]

1. How do the suicide bombings help the Palestinians?

How do bombing civilian infrastructures from 10&#39;000 feet help?


2. How is the murdering of innocents justified?

That&#39;s what a call a double edge sword. Are you implying that it&#39;s wrong primely from the Palestinian side? So Palestinians are just murdering Israelis, but the latter are just defending themselves...?


3. Would you praise the people who murdered your friends, parents, borthers, sisters and children as brave freedom fighters?

Like I said, I don&#39;t fully support their action. But to answer your question, if my own family was the one causing all the trouble, then I would believe that their death is somewhat justified. Of course I might be stretching what I&#39;m saying a bit, but that&#39;s just me. With what other means can the Palestinians defend themselves, other than that of the kamikaze way? Are you going to supply them with WMD, like Uncle Sam does with Israel, so they can start to use civilised means of violence?


Personally, I think a peacful Palestinian protest in Israel would be beneficial.

Yes, after they (the Israelis) finish building their grand security wall, a peacefull protest will change everything. And everybody lived happilly ever after.
Why didn&#39;t the soviets think of promoting peaceful protests in Stalingrad instead of guerrilla action? That would have stopped the Germans for sure eh?

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 01:33 AM
I support fighting injustice but i don&#39;t support slaughtering innocents under the guise of fighting injustice
Civillian casualties in war = inevitable

[BuyOurEverything]

How do bombing civilian infrastructures from 10&#39;000 feet help?

It doesn&#39;t. When did I ever say it did?


That&#39;s what a call a double edge sword. Are you implying that it&#39;s wrong primely from the Palestinian side? So Palestinians are just murdering Israelis, but the latter are just defending themselves...?

Why is it that because I oppose the suicide bombings, you just assume that I support the Israeli occupation and the killing of innocent Palestinians? I strongly oppose it.


Like I said, I don&#39;t fully support their action. But to answer your question, if my own family was the one causing all the trouble, then I would believe that their death is somewhat justified

You don&#39;t fully it? So you do support the killing of innocents somewhat. Do you really think that the children, babies and people just riding the bus to work, who quite possibly oppose the occupation, are causing the trouble? Please tell me how citizens of Israel are somehow more deserving of death than citizens of any other first world country. Just because the victims of US imperialism are far away across the ocean and out of sight of us and our comfy houses doesn&#39;t make the US, or its citizens, any less guilty. Would you support them if they killed you?


Civillian casualties in war = inevitable

Oh you&#39;re right, it&#39;s just innevitable anyways, so let&#39;s go slaughter as many of them as we can. The fact that a few innocents are going to die in a war doesn&#39;t make it right to go out and deliberatly target them. Death = innevitable, so why don&#39;t we go out and kill everyone?

[LuZhiming]

Oh you&#39;re right, it&#39;s just innevitable anyways, so let&#39;s go slaughter as many of them as we can. The fact that a few innocents are going to die in a war doesn&#39;t make it right to go out and deliberatly target them. Death = innevitable, so why don&#39;t we go out and kill everyone?

And that&#39;s what you believe the Palestinians are thinking? :rolleyes: There is no way they can defeat the Israeli military head on, that&#39;s suicide. So they have to resort to terrorism. And civillians are often inolved in terrorism, that doesn&#39;t mean just give up, or fighting an army that you can&#39;t beat directly. Terrorism is a perfectly legitimate form of warfare.

[Zombie]

of US imperialism are far away across the ocean and out of sight of us and our comfy houses doesn&#39;t make the US, or its citizens, any less guilty. Would you support them if they killed you?


far away across the ocean? I come from Lebanon mate. Look it up in the dictionnary to see where it is situated (yes&#33; there&#33;). A land that has been raped by decades of conflicts and war. Don&#39;t come and tell me these people (war casualities) are out of sight for me. I was there, hiding in the basement of my old building in Tripoli, 6 years old and scared shitless, when Israeli fighters were flying over our heads, bombing the shit out of the country, day after day. I was there, when Syria, Palestine and Israel were waging THEIR war, ON MY FUCKING LAND, and the western world dared to call it a CIVIL WAR. I was there when my own people were killing each other in the name of other foreign interests. I was there when I had to flee the country back in 1989 in order to lead a better life away from chaos and mayhem. Don&#39;t come and tell me what war feels like mate. And don&#39;t come and tell me how i should feel about war casualities.

If there should be a solution at all, it would be the surrendering OF BOTH PARTIES. If you think Palestinians should disarm solely, then FUCK YOU, and I mean it fully. For you don&#39;t understand what kind of dirty war the US and the Zionists are waging here.

[Zombie]

Would you support them if they killed you?


if they killed me, i&#39;d be dead, Einstein ;)

[EZLN88]

I don&#39;t think suicide bombing is a rationale way to go about the war. You can argue that it&#39;s justifiable but it still doesn&#39;t make it the best way to go about things. How can people expect to win a war when they&#39;re only killing themselves and innocent civilians? Did Che Guevara advocate suicide bombings? No, and he changed the fate of a nation. If they hope to win in this situation they need to go about by using conventional and political warfare. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s possible to truly win a war by using what many people can deem terrorist acts. I know, America does things in wars that are deemed terrorist acts but can you ever say that they&#39;ve truly won a war that they were in. They may kill a lot of people and change a few things around but they&#39;ll still be fighting.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

EZLN88,

I do not think Batista&#39;s Cuba remotely compares to the security mechanisms in place in Israel. I am not sure if the Che Guevara analogy is fitting in this instance.

[BuyOurEverything]

QUOTE
Oh you&#39;re right, it&#39;s just innevitable anyways, so let&#39;s go slaughter as many of them as we can. The fact that a few innocents are going to die in a war doesn&#39;t make it right to go out and deliberatly target them. Death = innevitable, so why don&#39;t we go out and kill everyone?


And that&#39;s what you believe the Palestinians are thinking? There is no way they can defeat the Israeli military head on, that&#39;s suicide. So they have to resort to terrorism. And civillians are often inolved in terrorism, that doesn&#39;t mean just give up, or fighting an army that you can&#39;t beat directly. Terrorism is a perfectly legitimate form of warfare.

No, that&#39;s what i believe YOU are saying. Terrorism is such a general word that it is next to useless in describing a military or political act. Terrorism = the act of inflicting terror. This includes not only every act of war but every act of intimidation directed against not only a country but individuals. So with this in mind, yes I agree. Terrorism is a perfectly legitimate form of warfare. Targeting innocent people is not. When you start to write off innocent people dying as just "colateral damage" you lose all justification for your cause. If someone is directly commiting injustices against you or oppressing you you have every right to defend yourself but not to kill everyone else in their country. I will repeat myself yet again: it&#39;s very easy to support murdering innocents when you don&#39;t have to see the results.


QUOTE
of US imperialism are far away across the ocean and out of sight of us and our comfy houses doesn&#39;t make the US, or its citizens, any less guilty. Would you support them if they killed you?



far away across the ocean? I come from Lebanon mate. Look it up in the dictionnary to see where it is situated (yes&#33; there&#33;). A land that has been raped by decades of conflicts and war. Don&#39;t come and tell me these people (war casualities) are out of sight for me. I was there, hiding in the basement of my old building in Tripoli, 6 years old and scared shitless, when Israeli fighters were flying over our heads, bombing the shit out of the country, day after day. I was there, when Syria, Palestine and Israel were waging THEIR war, ON MY FUCKING LAND, and the western world dared to call it a CIVIL WAR. I was there when my own people were killing each other in the name of other foreign interests. I was there when I had to flee the country back in 1989 in order to lead a better life away from chaos and mayhem. Don&#39;t come and tell me what war feels like mate. And don&#39;t come and tell me how i should feel about war casualities.

If there should be a solution at all, it would be the surrendering OF BOTH PARTIES. If you think Palestinians should disarm solely, then FUCK YOU, and I mean it fully. For you don&#39;t understand what kind of dirty war the US and the Zionists are waging here.

That comment was directed at people in the US and other western countries. I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t clarify that and yes, I do know where Lebanon is. As for the rest, I fully agree. I completely agree that both parties should disarm (or at least cease killing each other.) Never once have I said or implied that the Palestinians should solely disarm or are solely at fault. I find it strange that when I say I oppose the Palestinians killing innocent Israelis, people assume that I support the Israelis killing innocent Palestinians and occupying their land. Also, I noticed that you answered all three of my questions with other questions.


if they killed me, i&#39;d be dead, Einstein

Fine but prior to the fact, would you support them killing you or your family (and you can&#39;t assume that your family is oppressing them as many Israelis oppose their government&#39;s actions against the Palestinians.)

[caliban]

Hey Zombie, just looking at the map......Tripoli is NOT in Lebanon, it&#39;s in Libya. Are you a product of the American high school geography classes? Don&#39;t worry. i&#39;m not saying that you are being anything but truthfull, l believe that you hid in your basement, from what is none of my concern. Please forgive me if l am speaking out of turn but bullshit talks and you&#39;ve said a mouthfull.

[crazy comie]

Sometimes suicid bombings are the only choice even though i disagree with them.

[LuZhiming]

No, that&#39;s what i believe YOU are saying. Terrorism is such a general word that it is next to useless in describing a military or political act. Terrorism = the act of inflicting terror. This includes not only every act of war but every act of intimidation directed against not only a country but individuals. So with this in mind, yes I agree. Terrorism is a perfectly legitimate form of warfare. Targeting innocent people is not. When you start to write off innocent people dying as just "colateral damage" you lose all justification for your cause. If someone is directly commiting injustices against you or oppressing you you have every right to defend yourself but not to kill everyone else in their country. I will repeat myself yet again: it&#39;s very easy to support murdering innocents when you don&#39;t have to see the results.

Is is that hard for you to understand? Anyone who starts a war is automatically writing off the lives of civillians&#33; You can&#39;t have it both ways. Everyone from George Bush to Che Guevara to Attila the Hun has written off civillians. The Palestinians aren&#39;t killing civillians for the sake of killing civillians. Since that&#39;s the case, what they&#39;re doing is no worse than Fidel Castro liberating Cuba from its former oppressive regime.

[-JakeH-]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 2 2003, 02:53 PM
Sometimes suicid bombings are the only choice even though i disagree with them.
If you were living in an occupied nation for the course of your entire life, what would you do? If you saw endless destruction of your civilization, what would you do? If another nation claimed soveriegn right to your peoples land, and forcefully inhabitted said land, what would you do?

At the beginning of this conflict (2000), the ratio of death was insanely disproportionate. Something along the lines of 38 Israeli deaths and 750 Palistinian deaths. So, when you live in a nation with absolutely no means to defend itself (what can an AK-47 do against a tank?) then you have to resort to the only means of showing your dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs. As far as I see, suicide bombing is a completely legitimate way to strike back and tell a nation that you are no longer going to be supressed. Yes, I would prefer they do so against military targets, but once again, how are you to strike military targets that have such a technological advantage?

The Israeli-Palistine conflict is like watching a 300 pound man beat a child, all the child can do is destroy his belongings.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 12:31 PM
The Israeli-Palistine conflict is like watching a 300 pound man beat a child, all the child can do is destroy his belongings.
I like that a lot... I may end up quoting you on that down the road...

[BuyOurEverything]

Is is that hard for you to understand? Anyone who starts a war is automatically writing off the lives of civillians&#33; You can&#39;t have it both ways. Everyone from George Bush to Che Guevara to Attila the Hun has written off civillians. The Palestinians aren&#39;t killing civillians for the sake of killing civillians. Since that&#39;s the case, what they&#39;re doing is no worse than Fidel Castro liberating Cuba from its former oppressive regime.

Che and Castro never deliberately targeted civillians. Why don&#39;t you read Guerilla Warfare before you say what Che thought about targeting innocents. Are you saying as soon as a war is declared everyone is fair game and it doesn&#39;t matter who you murder because, hey, war is hell? Also, nothing is gained by suicide bombings. There is no strategic value in them, there is no economic gain in them. Their not destroying any military means of their oppressors.


The Israeli-Palistine conflict is like watching a 300 pound man beat a child, all the child can do is destroy his belongings.

So you&#39;re saying people are just belongings of their government? I think it&#39;s more like watching a 300 pound man beat up a child and all the child can do is kill his family.

Also, as of yet nobody here living in a western country has said they would support the killing of their friends and family. Until you can honestly say that, you have no right to support the killing of other innocent people.

[-JakeH-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 09:45 PM

The Israeli-Palistine conflict is like watching a 300 pound man beat a child, all the child can do is destroy his belongings.

So you&#39;re saying people are just belongings of their government? I think it&#39;s more like watching a 300 pound man beat up a child and all the child can do is kill his family.

Also, as of yet nobody here living in a western country has said they would support the killing of their friends and family. Until you can honestly say that, you have no right to support the killing of other innocent people.
I am not supporting it. I do however feel it is a just form of combat for a people whom have absolutely no way to show their dissatisfaction. I am simply saying that in a war where their lives are of no value, and they have absolutely no rights, this is a just form of COMBAT. I do not condone violence against the innocent, but when one has absolutely no way to fight an enemy that continues to invade their land, suicide bombing is their voice. It is their last resort, these are a people on the verge of extinction.
As for killing of friends and family, when your friends and family are being mowed down in large numbers by an unjust occupationm, what would you do? You have to look at it from the other side, not just say "Its not just in my eyes" because you have absolutely no idea the desperation they face.

[BuyOurEverything]

I am not supporting it. I do however feel it is a just form of combat

Please explain to me how that is not a complete contradiction.


As for killing of friends and family, when your friends and family are being mowed down in large numbers by an unjust occupationm, what would you do?

How about instead of answering a question with another question, you actually answer it&#33; As to what I&#39;d do, I&#39;d try to orginize a real resistance and educate the people. By real resistance I mean a guerilla army as Che described. I do realize the desperation they face however that doesn&#39;t justify killing other innocents.

Let me try and explain it this way. A huge bully comes along and starts beating up on this kid. The kid can&#39;t do anything because the bully is so much bigger than him that it&#39;s useless to try and fight him, so instead he turns around and punches another guy in the face. Well, what could the kid do? He had no other options&#33;

An option that does no good and actually does a lot of bad is no option at all.

[-JakeH-]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 04:26 PM

As for killing of friends and family, when your friends and family are being mowed down in large numbers by an unjust occupationm, what would you do?

How about instead of answering a question with another question, you actually answer it&#33; As to what I&#39;d do, I&#39;d try to orginize a real resistance and educate the people. By real resistance I mean a guerilla army as Che described. I do realize the desperation they face however that doesn&#39;t justify killing other innocents.

Let me try and explain it this way. A huge bully comes along and starts beating up on this kid. The kid can&#39;t do anything because the bully is so much bigger than him that it&#39;s useless to try and fight him, so instead he turns around and punches another guy in the face. Well, what could the kid do? He had no other options&#33;

An option that does no good and actually does a lot of bad is no option at all.
Palistinians tried an army, they failed. It turned into an 800 man massacre in Lebanon perpatrated by Ariel Sharon. As I said, these people have exhausted thier means, before too long they will all be gone.

As for the bully scenario, the kid was not threatened with erratication, that is a different story. You can&#39;t judge someone elses actions if you have no idea where they are coming from.

I&#39;d imagine that if you, with your revolutionary idea&#39;s, faced the same situation they faced, you would start enlisting suicide bombers, this is their form of revolution, they lack the technology to put up any sort of formitable fight. You forget, Che faught a government that was on almost a level playing field, the Palistinians lack the technology to efficiently fight the Israeli&#39;s.

You were right, I did contradict myself. On second thought, I support their only means of resistance, suicide bombing.

[BuyOurEverything]

What is one single benefit the suicide bombings have brought the Palestinian people?


As I said, these people have exhausted thier means, before too long they will all be gone.

And suicide bombings will help solve that how...


As for the bully scenario, the kid was not threatened with erratication, that is a different story. You can&#39;t judge someone elses actions if you have no idea where they are coming from.

Fine the bully has a gun, same fucking difference. My point was it doesn&#39;t help anything.

[Zombie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 09:02 AM
Hey Zombie, just looking at the map......Tripoli is NOT in Lebanon, it&#39;s in Libya. Are you a product of the American high school geography classes? Don&#39;t worry. i&#39;m not saying that you are being anything but truthfull, l believe that you hid in your basement, from what is none of my concern. Please forgive me if l am speaking out of turn but bullshit talks and you&#39;ve said a mouthfull.
there is 2 Tripolis, believe it or not. one in NOrthern Lebanon, and one in Libya. YOur map is very fucked up indeed my man, buy a new updated one please.


I then guess YOU are the product of the American highschool geography classes.

[LuZhiming]

Che and Castro never deliberately targeted civillians. Why don&#39;t you read Guerilla Warfare before you say what Che thought about targeting innocents. Are you saying as soon as a war is declared everyone is fair game and it doesn&#39;t matter who you murder because, hey, war is hell? Also, nothing is gained by suicide bombings.

What you said was "writing off civillians." Going into a war is writing off civillians. Che may not have targeted civillians, that&#39;s true. But the Palestinians don&#39;t stand a chance if they go against the military. What&#39;s better killing civillians on the enemies side, or sending your own soldiers to death? The only option besides that is sitting and doing nothing. Look, I don&#39;t like the idea of killing civillians, but then again, I don&#39;t like the idea of going into a war either. If morality was always the thing to put all importance on, in the minds of people, war wouldn&#39;t exist. If a force cannot win against the enemy military, and their motives for wanting to win are acceptably justifiable, then suicide bombing and the like is legitimate. Sure, it&#39;s terrible, sure it&#39;s not nice, but war isn&#39;t supposed to be nice, convenient, or to follow guidelines, now is it?


There is no strategic value in them, there is no economic gain in them. Their not destroying any military means of their oppressors.

When a force doesn&#39;t stand a chance against the enemy, they cannot just capture strategic points. Suicide bombings can hurt the enemies economy if executed appropriately. And it&#39;s a blatant lie to say it doesn&#39;t hurt the enemy military in some way. Remember it only took one suicide bomber to get the U.S. forces out of Lebanon.

[Blasphemy]

idiots. that is what all of you supporting suicide bombing are. you are idiots. when was the last time the bus you were riding on blew up? i&#39;m guessing never... do you know what it&#39;s like? hearing the explosion, the windows shattering, and small pieces of glass enter pierce your flesh. then you hear silence, but seconds later you see destruction all around you. dead bodies are scattered, some are buried under the remainings of the bus. children are crying, but you can&#39;t do anything about it. you can&#39;t move. you can barely understand what is going on around you. you can barely see, because the blood of the man who was sitting next to you is in your eyes. he wasn&#39;t lucky as you were. you see him next to you, his face completely messed up. and then you hear silence again. you faint. hours later you find yourself in the hospital, and you can&#39;t get the screams to stop echoing in your ears. at night, when you&#39;re trying to get some sleep, you can&#39;t get the sights of that man out of your head. you know that this sight will haunt you for the rest of your life. from now on, every little sounds startles you, every time you get on a bus you imagine that every second it will explode, every time someone comes to sit next to you, you imagine that it is that man, who sat next to you then.

you call the man who did it a freedom fighter? fine, i&#39;ll accept that. i would be ashamed of that sort of freedom. i would be ashamed of the fact that in order for me to be free, 14 people had to lose their lives that day. i would be even more ashamed knowing that these people died for nothing, because the Palestinian freedom will be achieved with a pen and paper. not bombs, not guns, just two people, sitting one by the other, signing a peace treaty. but as long as people keep blowing up, that day is far.

[LuZhiming]

idiots. that is what all of you supporting suicide bombing are. you are idiots. when was the last time the bus you were riding on blew up? i&#39;m guessing never... do you know what it&#39;s like? hearing the explosion, the windows shattering, and small pieces of glass enter pierce your flesh. then you hear silence, but seconds later you see destruction all around you. dead bodies are scattered, some are buried under the remainings of the bus. children are crying, but you can&#39;t do anything about it. you can&#39;t move. you can barely understand what is going on around you. you can barely see, because the blood of the man who was sitting next to you is in your eyes. he wasn&#39;t lucky as you were. you see him next to you, his face completely messed up. and then you hear silence again. you faint. hours later you find yourself in the hospital, and you can&#39;t get the screams to stop echoing in your ears. at night, when you&#39;re trying to get some sleep, you can&#39;t get the sights of that man out of your head. you know that this sight will haunt you for the rest of your life. from now on, every little sounds startles you, every time you get on a bus you imagine that every second it will explode, every time someone comes to sit next to you, you imagine that it is that man, who sat next to you then.

Oh yeah, brilliant arguement here. Sure, point out how bad it must feel to be a victim of suicide bombing, ignore motives or anything else. "You wouldn&#39;t want to be a victim of suicide bombing, so it must be bad." That&#39;s basically the arguement you have here. Utter absurdity.


you call the man who did it a freedom fighter? fine, i&#39;ll accept that. i would be ashamed of that sort of freedom. i would be ashamed of the fact that in order for me to be free, 14 people had to lose their lives that day. i would be even more ashamed knowing that these people died for nothing, because the Palestinian freedom will be achieved with a pen and paper. not bombs, not guns, just two people, sitting one by the other, signing a peace treaty. but as long as people keep blowing up, that day is far.

Umm, yeah but until that happens, should the Palestinians not have the right to fight back? :rolleyes:

[FabFabian]

Nebraska, I never said that you were wrong or incorrect. I merely stated a fact that few people know about and I brought it up. In my replies to anyone on this board I never assume to know everything for absolutely sure unless I have experience or have done my homework.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

FF,

First of all, I am not Nebraska. I live in Nebraska. My name is Jackson, if you would prefer that... MiN is good, too.

Second of all, I am not sure what you are even talking about. Please refresh my memory.

[(*]

My plan for Mideast peace is very extreme & radical



I firmly believe that both parties desire peace, but think violence is the way to achieve it.

both sides must lay down their arms...

[Zombie]

Unrealistic.

They&#39;ll never lay down their arms until one of them is wiped out, which could take quite a while.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 05:40 PM
Unrealistic.

They&#39;ll never lay down their arms until one of them is wiped out, which could take quite a while.
I would not be so sure about that...

I think it is possible to have peace without one side being exterminated. It may take a third party (UN maybe?) to get between the warring factions. I know the Israeli aggression must be stopped immediately. Once that is accomplished, then the religious zealots on the Arab side need to be undermined.

[Zombie]

UN maybe?

How about that. Good one, except you&#39;re forgetting who sieges at the highest throne, and who vetoes anything that goes against it&#39;s old friend Israel, or the ongoing massacre. How do you stop Israel when it&#39;s strongest ally, and ultimately YOUR strongest ally, says otherwise?

These ties must be broken before any attempt at instauring peace (back?) in the region.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Yeah... I do not trust the UN as the Security Council has the only power, and the Security Council is a tool for the big five--US, UK, France, Russia, and China.

What I not-so-clearly attempted to say was that an international group (the UN is the biggest and best organized) should contribute peacekeepers to get between the warring factions.

[BuyOurEverything]

My plan for Mideast peace is very extreme & radical



I firmly believe that both parties desire peace, but think violence is the way to achieve it.

both sides must lay down their arms...

I agree. In certain situations, violence is neccessary but in this case it benefits no one (except probably the Israeli settlers.)

[dopediana]

Originally posted by (*@Oct 7 2003, 07:10 PM
My plan for Mideast peace is very extreme & radical



I firmly believe that both parties desire peace, but think violence is the way to achieve it.

both sides must lay down their arms...
how do you get the PLO to do that? the government has no control over them. they&#39;ve been stepped on so much they won&#39;t stop till israel has cleared out.

[(*]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 7 2003, 08:51 PM

how do you get the PLO to do that? the government has no control over them. they&#39;ve been stepped on so much they won&#39;t stop till israel has cleared out.
It is not just the PLO that has to do it. All other organizations, factions, and governments must commit to ending the violence.

This plan will only work if everyone agrees.

You ask how?
For one, Governments & people need to stop taking sides.
No more mediators, this calls for arbitration (from an unbiased 3rd party).

This is why I said the plan is extreme. Not killing is tougher than killing. It takes more not to pull the trigger than vice versa.

[FabFabian]

You won&#39;t see UN forces in the terroritories, because Israel will never let them in.

[myth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 04:18 AM
You won&#39;t see UN forces in the terroritories, because Israel will never let them in.
Excatly .. If Israel Really Ever had the good well to achive peace they could at least welcomed some of supervisions from UN or even from the US its self

but meh .. they never will , coz that would expose how crocked its there ..