Caution: EXTREME controversy inside!

[Yazman]

WARNING: I am not praising the September 11th attacks in any way, or saying that the deaths of the people was a good thing. This is just a hypothetical questioning of the results of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks.

What do you guys think of the attacks on the World Trade Centre? It sucks that people died the way they did, but is it possible that it was a major blow to international capitalism? The religious motives of Osama Bin Laden & Co. in their destroying of the WTC were complete crap, I believe, but do you think it is feasible to say that international capitalism was shaken on that day, and that many capitalists realise they are not invincible as they seem to think they are?

[BuyOurEverything]

I don't think so. Sure it put the economy in a bit of a recession but if anything it gave capitalism a sort of rallying point.

[Ian]

Does it look like capitalism was hurt? 2 wars/years on and they are still going strong, been a pretty great excuse for the bastards to do whatever they want.

[EneME]

I believe that was the INTENTION, to rock the base of Capitalism by terminating two great symbols of prosperty. I think the media/pentagon did a great job of flipping it into what it has been flipped to and since most of the American ppl do not know what the effects are of US foreign policy, they don't know that most of the world hates the US lol...and the Bush admin. is using that fear created by the attacks to exploit whatever he and other rich ass conservatives want....

[Sabocat]

Agreed. Not only was the World Trade Center the center for world banking and investment houses, but it plunged the stockmarket and economy into near depression era levels, which are still fighting to reclaim levels of pre 9-11.

Make no mistake about it, Bin Laden may have attacked for religious beliefs too, but the main goal I believe was to hit Amerika "where it lives".....in the pocketbook.

[suffianr]

If it was for a religious crusade, wouldn't they have bombed Mossad or some other Israeli interests? The Zionists are the sworn enemies, are they not? Why didn't they just take out Jerusalem or something? Why antagonise the world's biggest military superpower first?

[Invader Zim]

The 9/11 attacks were hardly important or dammaging to the US, in terms of prosperity. Companys protect them selves against that sort of things by keeping backups of there important data files off site, so it is recoverable. So I doubt that any company directly involved was that badly dammaged, other than that it may have lost many skilled workers. Which is the important thing to remember, the only thing destroyed by 9/11 were those who worked in the Twin towers, and a little US pride.

[Sabocat]

In just the airline industry alone, they lost billions, even considering the billions of dollars the govt. gave them to bail them out. This is just one sector.


Airline Losses after September 11th

The Day that Air Travel Changed

Perhaps no other industry was as immediately affected by the devestating events of September 11th as the airline industry. Beyond the passengers and airline crews who lost their lives on that day many airlines simply shut down. Of those that managed through the crisis-filled days and months that followed, tens of thousands of airline employees lost their jobs. This feature takes a look at the fractured status of the airlines in a post-September 11th world.

The aftermath of September 11th meant a vast loss of jobs at many of the world's largest airlines. The Financial times updated a sample of the jobs lost, and MSNBC provides statistics for some of the affected carriers in the United States.

Bankruptcy has unfortunately become another keyword that airlines link to September 11th. Some of the airlines that attribute their demise (at least in some part) to the events of September 11th include: Sabena (Belgium), Swissair, Ansett Australia, and Vanguard Airlines (U.S.). Other carriers are wavering on the point of bankruptcy or require massive restructuring to continue. These are challenging times for airlines and those employed in the airline industry.

Things in air travel are slowly improving. Some of the lost jobs have been regained, and passengers have returned to the airports. However, in the post September 11th climate it is hard to really know who will weather the turbulent economic times.


Insurance companies lost 40 billion in covered losses.


"Total life and non-life insurance losses are expected to reach at least $40 billion," added Hartwig. "The losses sustained by the insurance industry were unprecedented in virtually every respect, producing catastrophic losses not only in property coverages, but also for the first time in life insurance, disability and workers' compensation lines. Aviation and liability insurers also suffered their worst-ever losses stemming from a single event."


Businesses still paying for 9/11

Lost revenue, higher costs among lingering impact of attack, but total less than feared for some.
September 4, 2002: 8:48 AM EDT
By Chris Isidore, CNN/Money Staff Writer

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The cost to U.S. businesses from last year's terrorist attacks is incalculable, but clearly it's reaching into the hundreds of billions of dollars, and some businesses could be hurt for years to come.

Still, a year later what's perhaps most surprising is that the costs weren't higher. Rather than the oil shock that many expected in the wake of the attacks, oil prices fell, muting the impact on some of the affected industries, such as airlines.

The lack of further attacks to date limited direct costs, and strong consumer spending helped some industries, such as autos, weather sales lost immediately after Sept. 11.

Full Article

http://money.cnn.com/2002/08/29/news/911_companies/

[mEds]

You know what. i dont give a damn if insurance companies lost 40 billion or a trillion dollars. Moneysucking assholes.

[Sabocat]

I don't either. I was just trying to make the point that Bin Laden was successful in doing economic damage.

[Anarchist Freedom]

i say if you can shove it up the insurance companys ass then do it good job osama




:che:

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I think it is important to note that the U.S. economy was already sinking into recession when the attacks on the trade towers came. The attacks certainly exacerbated the economic problems, but the problems were already manifesting themselves months in advance of the attacks. The attacks did, on the other hand, provide the Bush administration with an excuse for the recession. Capitalism had not failed again... rather, terrorism had shaken investor confidence. The solution was to bomb the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq while giving huge tax cuts to the ruling class. Also, the fear of an external enemy provided a way for the ruling class to push for "unity" (as in the working class agreeing not to retaliate during the next round of class warfare). That fear has been exploited masterfully by the American ruling class for over a hundred years, but Bush is certainly making himself a legend in this category.

Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, if anything, saved capitalism and U.S. dominance by giving the U.S. ruling class one hell of an excuse for reaction. The way I see it is this: the right-wing, religious zealot bin Laden gave a gift to the right-wing, religious zealot George W. Bush. Bush has reciprocated by proving bin Laden right with his naked imperialism framed in explicitly Christian language. They are scratching one another's backs... Bush gets to jack up the Pentagon budget, make war wherever he feels like, and assault the standard of living for the workers in the U.S. to raise the bottom line of his corporate masters... bin Laden will reap the thousands of new recruits to Al-Qaeda that will inevitably come from such U.S. hostility in the Arab and Muslim world.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 04:44 PM
In just the airline industry alone, they lost billions, even considering the billions of dollars the govt. gave them to bail them out. This is just one sector.


Airline Losses after September 11th

The Day that Air Travel Changed

Perhaps no other industry was as immediately affected by the devestating events of September 11th as the airline industry. Beyond the passengers and airline crews who lost their lives on that day many airlines simply shut down. Of those that managed through the crisis-filled days and months that followed, tens of thousands of airline employees lost their jobs. This feature takes a look at the fractured status of the airlines in a post-September 11th world.

The aftermath of September 11th meant a vast loss of jobs at many of the world's largest airlines. The Financial times updated a sample of the jobs lost, and MSNBC provides statistics for some of the affected carriers in the United States.

Bankruptcy has unfortunately become another keyword that airlines link to September 11th. Some of the airlines that attribute their demise (at least in some part) to the events of September 11th include: Sabena (Belgium), Swissair, Ansett Australia, and Vanguard Airlines (U.S.). Other carriers are wavering on the point of bankruptcy or require massive restructuring to continue. These are challenging times for airlines and those employed in the airline industry.

Things in air travel are slowly improving. Some of the lost jobs have been regained, and passengers have returned to the airports. However, in the post September 11th climate it is hard to really know who will weather the turbulent economic times.


Insurance companies lost 40 billion in covered losses.


"Total life and non-life insurance losses are expected to reach at least $40 billion," added Hartwig. "The losses sustained by the insurance industry were unprecedented in virtually every respect, producing catastrophic losses not only in property coverages, but also for the first time in life insurance, disability and workers' compensation lines. Aviation and liability insurers also suffered their worst-ever losses stemming from a single event."


Businesses still paying for 9/11

Lost revenue, higher costs among lingering impact of attack, but total less than feared for some.
September 4, 2002: 8:48 AM EDT
By Chris Isidore, CNN/Money Staff Writer

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The cost to U.S. businesses from last year's terrorist attacks is incalculable, but clearly it's reaching into the hundreds of billions of dollars, and some businesses could be hurt for years to come.

Still, a year later what's perhaps most surprising is that the costs weren't higher. Rather than the oil shock that many expected in the wake of the attacks, oil prices fell, muting the impact on some of the affected industries, such as airlines.

The lack of further attacks to date limited direct costs, and strong consumer spending helped some industries, such as autos, weather sales lost immediately after Sept. 11.

Full Article

http://money.cnn.com/2002/08/29/news/911_companies/
Thats a drop in the ocean though, just look at how much bush wants to spend on the war 87 billion, god knows how much cash the arms/oil companys are making as well. You can be sure that the US is making a profit soemwhere out of 9/11.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 05:46 AM
WARNING: I am not praising the September 11th attacks in any way, or saying that the deaths of the people was a good thing. This is just a hypothetical questioning of the results of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks.

What do you guys think of the attacks on the World Trade Centre? It sucks that people died the way they did, but is it possible that it was a major blow to international capitalism? The religious motives of Osama Bin Laden & Co. in their destroying of the WTC were complete crap, I believe, but do you think it is feasible to say that international capitalism was shaken on that day, and that many capitalists realise they are not invincible as they seem to think they are?
*sigh*

a blow on capitalism made by fanatic feudalists...

and long live progress... :rolleyes:

[Fidelbrand]

It was literal raging anger for the the fucked-up deeds of imperialism..... the message is clear-----> mind your own ass, or eat the planes. But of coz, the lost lives of the innocents makes us feel sad...... but, how about those who were slaughtered by U.S.'s arrogant imperialistic moves~? :unsure:

In regards to the shock of the capital market, my opinion is : The attack rocked the market, but the octopus is still here... ~~ Enslavement is still on. Exploitation is still prevalent.

Revolutionary actions is still up! Long fuck imperialism & capitalism~~

[truthaddict11]

Bin Laden is pretty rich so I highly doubt that the WTC were directed at Capitalism, read Noam Chomsky's 9-11 for more on this.

[Bianconero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 05:46 AM
WARNING: I am not praising the September 11th attacks in any way, or saying that the deaths of the people was a good thing. This is just a hypothetical questioning of the results of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks.

What do you guys think of the attacks on the World Trade Centre? It sucks that people died the way they did, but is it possible that it was a major blow to international capitalism? The religious motives of Osama Bin Laden & Co. in their destroying of the WTC were complete crap, I believe, but do you think it is feasible to say that international capitalism was shaken on that day, and that many capitalists realise they are not invincible as they seem to think they are?
Pfew, now that was indeed controversial. I say we shoot him right away.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 02:25 PM
Bin Laden is pretty rich so I highly doubt that the WTC were directed at Capitalism, read Noam Chomsky's 9-11 for more on this.
I agree... bin Laden is no hero, no revolutionary... he is a religious zealot with a lot of money, not much more...

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by Marxist in Nebraska+Sep 12 2003, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marxist in Nebraska @ Sep 12 2003, 02:50 PM)
[email protected] 12 2003, 02:25 PM
Bin Laden is pretty rich so I highly doubt that the WTC were directed at Capitalism, read Noam Chomsky&#39;s 9-11 for more on this.
I agree... bin Laden is no hero, no revolutionary... he is a religious zealot with a lot of money, not much more... [/b]
exactly thats why i believe that assumptions that the attacks were against capitalism are foolish. Bin Ladens main plan is to start a war against Islam and the West and from the looks of it it seems like he is getting just what he wants.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

He seems to be interested in restarting the Crusades. Dubya has been more than happy thus far to do his part in the West.

[Sabocat]

Thats a drop in the ocean though, just look at how much bush wants to spend on the war 87 billion, god knows how much cash the arms/oil companys are making as well. You can be sure that the US is making a profit soemwhere out of 9/11.

No question. What was Bush&#39;s statement that he said shortly after...."I hit the trifecta" or something along those lines referring to a national crisis, being able to push tax cuts and fund the military. Most importantly, it&#39;s kept most of the masses from thinking about the sad state of affairs with the economy and unemployment.

[suffianr]

Wag the Dog&#33;

[Rastafari]

Osama didn&#39;t hurt American capitalism.
American fear hurt American Capitalism.

[Don't Change Your Name]

I don&#39;t like Bin Laden. He is just a jealous right-wing religious arab capitalist trying to show that he has power and that yanquis suck.

But all this thing of the 911 is weird...

The yanquis, with all their military power and technology, did 2 wars, one against bin laden and his men (including the taliban government) and another against the saddam regime, but they only found some related people, the most important men (bin laden and saddam) were never found.

Now that they "own" Afhganistan and Iraq, they cant find them there, in fact they seem to have stopped searching. Weird...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Eneme, it is good that you are questioning the mass opinion of the attacks.

One thing, Al-Qaeda&#39;s motivation wasn&#39;t all religious. This is what we&#39;ve been told by the media. As Usama bin Laden has said and as militant Arab&#39;s will tell you, the attacks were motivated massively by American behaviour in the Arab world. Namely Palestine. The Arab people, thus Islamic people, hate America for what it is doing to their brothers in Palestine. It is only a religious issue because all the people fighting the particular cause are Moslems. The attacks were, fundemantally, politically motiviated. However, like you say, what the militants say is that America&#39;s actions are a threat to Islam because the countries they are making suffer are largely Islamic. I know many people here are opposed to religion simply because of their political belief. And that, of course, is fine. But try and think that we are in a world where religion exists and is important, surely you can see that America does appear to be trying to rid the world of Islam. The old enemy, Communism, has no power at the moment. Not significant in the fight against Capitalism anyway. Islam is the only powerful and large diversity to the American way.

But anyway, I think we do need to think about why these attacks took place. I do not think that these attacks were neccessary, not at all. There was no attack made on the American government, not really. Yet thousands died. It is symbolic more than anything and if thousands die just for that then it is wrong. But America had it coming. The militants hatred of America is justified. An attack on America by the Arab people is justified, just as an attack by a Palestinian on Isreal is justified.

[caliban]

Look in the pages of history. Bin Laden has been named before. In a country once occupied by the USSR. Ask one question: who took the stinger missles from the US to fight the Russians? Answer that and you will understand why he did it. The US doesn&#39;t want you to ask because this is not the first time they have backed out of an agreement to the detriment of the second party involved. Why is Bin Laden pissed? Because he was hung out to dry without the US backing he was promised in return for his help. I know it sounds far fetched....almost as far fetched as the Iran/Contra deal, or the fact that the Iranian Air Force is(was) the only other nation to fly the F-14(a gift in the good old days of walking the line for their interests), or the long list of people killed in the name of democracy. Demonize an enemy and your own people will never listen, criminalize them and they may find the truth, lie and your fucking days are numbered&#33; :D

[EneME]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 14 2003, 08:44 PM
Eneme, it is good that you are questioning the mass opinion of the attacks.

One thing, Al-Qaeda&#39;s motivation wasn&#39;t all religious. This is what we&#39;ve been told by the media. As Usama bin Laden has said and as militant Arab&#39;s will tell you, the attacks were motivated massively by American behaviour in the Arab world. Namely Palestine. The Arab people, thus Islamic people, hate America for what it is doing to their brothers in Palestine. It is only a religious issue because all the people fighting the particular cause are Moslems. The attacks were, fundemantally, politically motiviated. However, like you say, what the militants say is that America&#39;s actions are a threat to Islam because the countries they are making suffer are largely Islamic. I know many people here are opposed to religion simply because of their political belief. And that, of course, is fine. But try and think that we are in a world where religion exists and is important, surely you can see that America does appear to be trying to rid the world of Islam. The old enemy, Communism, has no power at the moment. Not significant in the fight against Capitalism anyway. Islam is the only powerful and large diversity to the American way.

But anyway, I think we do need to think about why these attacks took place. I do not think that these attacks were neccessary, not at all. There was no attack made on the American government, not really. Yet thousands died. It is symbolic more than anything and if thousands die just for that then it is wrong. But America had it coming. The militants hatred of America is justified. An attack on America by the Arab people is justified, just as an attack by a Palestinian on Isreal is justified.
Excellent way of putting it. I completely agree...
I&#39;ve heard many different contraversy stories on the 9/11 attacks...one was what my friend told me right afterwards. That Bush was behind the attacks to get ppl off his back because the nation was dissapointed in the way he stole his position from Gore....that would in turn make Americans like him again, and give him the green light for war. (More money in his pocket) Especially because both of their families actually knew eachother b/c they are both in the oil industry...
Another isn&#39;t actually a contraversy (how da hell do u spell it?) theory but a point made by my father, that Bush is actually doing what Osama wanted. Bombing Afghanistan and Iraq is bringing the Muslim world together in hatred toward the USA. They&#39;re polarizing the sentiments towards the US.

I think it is important to note that the U.S. economy was already sinking into recession when the attacks on the trade towers came. The attacks certainly exacerbated the economic problems,
Yes..completely true...i remember that times were already hard before it happened...

[caliban]

It&#39;s true that the governments of these countries are hurt by American foreign policy, but in the end they still live in a palace. The people are the ones who pay the biggest price, so why is it so hard to understand that they are directing the attacks at the general population? They couldn&#39;t mount a serious attack against a military complex now anyway, nor would they want to. Terrorism is against the people because they want the people to be affraid, not the government. The attacks of 9-11 were directed at symbolic targets, hard core American institutions. Many have said that the attacks played into the hands of the Americans because it gave them the excuse to attack. I agree, but, if this goes on and on do you think the average American will put up with is for long? Will they push for a resolution or turn it into a war of idiology?

[RED CHARO]

The WT Center was chosen, to inflict the highest number of casualties&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;, NOT GOOD&#33;
Fundamentalism is almost the exact oppisite of socialism&#33;

[FistFullOfSteel]

bin laden used his CIA-training that he got from the eightes..iv seen bowling for columbine

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Hugo,
Yeah, the bin Laden-CIA connection is one of the big twists in Moore&#39;s "What a Wonderful World" segment (one of my personal favorites from a great top-to-bottom movie). I have heard quite a few anecdotes about the audience in the theater gasping in shock and horror when that is revealed during Bowling For Columbine.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 05:46 AM
WARNING: I am not praising the September 11th attacks in any way, or saying that the deaths of the people was a good thing. This is just a hypothetical questioning of the results of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks.

What do you guys think of the attacks on the World Trade Centre? It sucks that people died the way they did, but is it possible that it was a major blow to international capitalism? The religious motives of Osama Bin Laden & Co. in their destroying of the WTC were complete crap, I believe, but do you think it is feasible to say that international capitalism was shaken on that day, and that many capitalists realise they are not invincible as they seem to think they are?
Hell no.

It was a huge help to the economy, mostly because of the war it has created. :angry:

[pedro san pedro]

so, were his motives to kill americans or cause economic damage -kinda like the elf on a grand scale?
cause war is good for the us econemy

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I think bin Laden sought to kill Americans, and destroy symbols of American power. I think the attacks can be viewed as resentment against U.S. imperialism, but not as any kind of attack on the capitalist system.

[FabFabian]

It&#39;s too bad that someone in the Arab world or one of his henchmen doesn&#39;t have the guts to say to the guy that he is full of shit.

He uses capitalism as an excuse, yet he has money coming out of his arse. He is like those teens from wealthy homes that think poverty is cool. Fuck off already.

He uses Islam as a front for his cause, but his actions completely nullify his qualifications. Just because you run around in a sheet in the mountains and invoke Allah&#39;s name at every turn does not a Muslim make.

He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages.

Someone do us all a favour and unplug his kidney.

[EneME]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 18 2003, 06:49 PM
Hugo,
Yeah, the bin Laden-CIA connection is one of the big twists in Moore&#39;s "What a Wonderful World" segment (one of my personal favorites from a great top-to-bottom movie). I have heard quite a few anecdotes about the audience in the theater gasping in shock and horror when that is revealed during Bowling For Columbine.
yeah really good....saw it at a movie theatre in Berkeley...lots of reaction of course, but during the Wonderful World series...i was so caught by surprise at the truth being told, i actually cried...it was just alot of emotion thinking of all the suffering..

[RyeN]

To me the whole thing sounds to bullshit and too clouded to belive anything about September 11. Im not denying that it happened because those towers arent there anymore.

But doesnt it sound kind of wierd that on a plane filled with Americans, who have a deep founded hatred for muslims already, four terrorist were able to take over the plane with box cutters. Do you know what a box cutter is. Fuck that shit if four muslims tried to take my car with box cutters i would fuck them up myself. Im not a huge guy but there only box cutters. Now why wouldnt a plan full of Angry Americans whoes lives are being threatened be able to stop some Fanatic muslims with box cutters.

Answer: There were no muslims with box cutters. The Iluminati set that shit up for sure as an excuse to start a holy war for Oil.

[truthaddict11]

the reason why the terrorist took over the planes with such ease was because the flight attendents and pilots (even though they were probally killed before the the planes hit the towers) were following procedures of a hijacking. The planes were fairly empty and I bet most of the passengers were scared shitless to do anything. It is stupid to believe that Bush planned and executed the attacks.

[Saint-Just]

I thought it seemed slightly odd that they could take over the plane with box-cutters &#39;Fuck that shit if four muslims tried to take my car with box cutters i would fuck them up myself.&#39;

I am not particularly taken to what strikes me as an extremely big conspiracy theory and I believe that it was fairly likely Al Quaeda. There is masses of evidence to suggest it was not that for example over Washington that was a tightly restricted air-space and the plane should have never been able to get near the Pentagon.

Still, did the U.S. really gain that much from September 11th? Maybe...

so, were his motives to kill americans or cause economic damage -kinda like the elf on a grand scale?
cause war is good for the us econemy

It was entirely to kill as many American civilians as possible. They view Americans as inherently evil.

&#39;He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages.&#39;

The attacks were supposedly a response to the Isreali&#39;s actions in the Middle East and the American support of them. Since many Palestinians support the suicide bombings I suspect they would have enjoyed September 11th. In all I think the suicide bombers are just as evil as Bin Laden.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

FabFabian, I don&#39;t think bin Laden used capitalism as his excuse for the attacks. It was America&#39;s imperialist actions in the Middle East.

ChairmanMao, I find it strange that you say:
"He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages."

He never claimed to have done anything for them. Moslem people consider themselves all brothers. He attacked America to avenge America for the death of his innocent brothers and sisters. Its as simple, and as justified, as that.

[praxis1966]

Whatever the reasoning bin Laden used for ordering the attacks, there are a few strange coincidences surrounding the events of Sep. 11.

First of all, all of the people with the power to do something about it had information enough to stop the people involved in the attacks, including King George II himself. It is my belief that George pulled an FDR. FDR had advance notice of an immediately pending attack on Pearl Harbor, he refused to act so as to give creedence to the U&#036; engaging in open conflict in WWII. Bush did the same thing so that he could gain support for war in Afghanistan and subsequently Iraq. The attacks also had the added benefit of solidifying support behind what was commonly seen in the U&#036; as an unjust and illegitamate administration.

Secondly, it is a little publicized fact that there were strong ties between Bush himself and the bin Laden family. They were the single largest investment group in Bush&#39;s first oil company. Secondly, after every other commercial flight was grounded only two other passenger planes were allowed in the air. One was the famous Air Force One. The other was a jetliner chartered by our government which hop-scotched around the country. It gathered up about about 20 members of the bin Laden family and flew them to safety in exile.

I&#39;m not sure what all of this means in the grand sceme of things, but it&#39;s certainly frightening. I wish sometimes I wasn&#39;t so informed.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 20 2003, 09:20 PM
ChairmanMao, I find it strange that you say:
"He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages."

He never claimed to have done anything for them. Moslem people consider themselves all brothers. He attacked America to avenge America for the death of his innocent brothers and sisters. Its as simple, and as justified, as that.
You are right to find that strange since I was quoting someone and never said that and never would have said that. I agree with you absolutely. The confusion arose when I did not make it clear that I was quoting someone.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by the SovieT+Sep 11 2003, 10:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the SovieT @ Sep 11 2003, 10:17 PM)
[email protected] 11 2003, 05:46 AM
WARNING: I am not praising the September 11th attacks in any way, or saying that the deaths of the people was a good thing. This is just a hypothetical questioning of the results of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks.

What do you guys think of the attacks on the World Trade Centre? It sucks that people died the way they did, but is it possible that it was a major blow to international capitalism? The religious motives of Osama Bin Laden & Co. in their destroying of the WTC were complete crap, I believe, but do you think it is feasible to say that international capitalism was shaken on that day, and that many capitalists realise they are not invincible as they seem to think they are?
*sigh*

a blow on capitalism made by fanatic feudalists...

and long live progress... :rolleyes: [/b]
So far this is the best way I&#39;ve seen it put. :lol:

[FabFabian]

I have heard (translated by a reliable source) some of the speeches done by extremists clerics. They rail against capitalism all the time.

[BuyOurEverything]

It&#39;s too bad that someone in the Arab world or one of his henchmen doesn&#39;t have the guts to say to the guy that he is full of shit.

And I&#39;m sure you&#39;d hear all about it the second that happened given the western media&#39;s commitment to making sure they reflect everyone&#39;s view equally and present a balanced story. :rolleyes:



Just because you run around in a sheet in the mountains

Well I&#39;m glad we&#39;ve reached the point of using racial slurs already.


He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages.

Because it&#39;s so obvious that Bin Laden is the driving force behind the occupation of Palestine. The fact that people are oppressed doesn&#39;t mean that a person trying to change things is a failure (not that I&#39;m even beginning to call Bin Laden a revolutionalry but your reasoning is flawed.)


He never claimed to have done anything for them. Moslem people consider themselves all brothers. He attacked America to avenge America for the death of his innocent brothers and sisters. Its as simple, and as justified, as that.

So as I&#39;ve asked before, just to clarify, you&#39;d be totally cool with having yourself, your friends and your family
killed because of your government&#39;s foreign policy?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 02:09 AM


Just because you run around in a sheet in the mountains

Well I&#39;m glad we&#39;ve reached the point of using racial slurs already.
I was also bothered by this line. FabFabian, please... seriously reconsider what that kind of shit means... think of the kind of people that say this... what they try to justify... a poor choice of words, in my humble opinion.

[monkeydust]

Whatever you say about the motives behind the september 11th attacks or Bin Laden himself the fact remains that Bush&#39;s war on terror seems to be a pile of wank.

Firstly Bush seems to view his enemies without consiedring the fact thta they are humans and have a reason for hating his country; he sees them as the &#39;bad guys&#39; without realsing that from they&#39;re perspective he and all Americans are just that as well.

Secondly the way i see it you cant fight ideas with bullets and bombs, I still think that Bush should stop trying to cure American resentment by eliminating those who resent him. It&#39;s clear that even in the Iraq that he&#39;s &#39;liberated&#39; the Iraqi civilian populaton are opposed to the american occupation.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 07:09 AM


He never claimed to have done anything for them. Moslem people consider themselves all brothers. He attacked America to avenge America for the death of his innocent brothers and sisters. Its as simple, and as justified, as that.

So as I&#39;ve asked before, just to clarify, you&#39;d be totally cool with having yourself, your friends and your family
killed because of your government&#39;s foreign policy?
Unfortunately, BOE, as a citizen of Great Britain, I am classed as a person that voted in the Labour government. "The British people voted in Labour". Whatever Labour do wrong is attributed to the "British people" because they "voted" Labour in.

I&#39;d not like to die, but if I was killed in a protest against my government, I cannot help it as I am one of the people that officialy "voted" them in.

[Zombie]

there never were 2 towers in the first place|&#33;

it was all holographic, and the drugged people didn&#39;t know the difference from the real thing. so as all of it might seem so real, dont worry, you were just on crack dat day...you&#39;re on crack now if you&#39;re reading this. youMre always on crack anyhow


im serious i tell ya...

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Silly Zombie is actually part right--there were not two towers. There were several other towers, but the "twins" get all the attention because they were by far the largest. The wreckage of the crumbling giants ended up destroying two or three of the lesser towers as well.

[Firestorm]

Sept. 11th was an attack aimed at the heart of the US ideology. Greed .
The US said it was an attack against "freedom and democracy". BS&#33; If the the US was so free and democratic then why does it continue to occupy countries to divert their oil and minerals to serve US interests by force. That is neither upholding the values of freedom or democracy.

As well, it wasn&#39;t smart on the part of the US to fund the religious fundamentalists of Afganistan to fight Communists. In the end if you fuck up these zelous men will turn their feiry rath on you if you don&#39;t pay them.
Duh,
This is why terrorist love making an example of the US.

G. Bush Jr is a dangerous cowboy with a loaded Bazooka. He is also a dumb one at that&#33; I laught in his face.
What a fuck up&#33;

[Anarchist Freedom]

im gunna have to agree with some friend about this subject people die they just do nothing can stop that and just because george bush decided to do a little bread and butter or war to help the economy and stuff doesnt mean its good


:che:

[Alejandro C]

this doesn&#39;t seem to be as controvertial as it was labeled, must be more of that x-treme advertising.

it seems that all of us understand what bin ladin was really aiming at. i live in america and on that day i was the only one withing a 500 mi. radius thinking to myself, they weren&#39;t trying to kill me, they were only after symbolic targets. after all if they were just trying to kill americans they couldve hit a football stadium or a concert hall and easily have killed a quarter of a million instead of less than 3,000. but i live in nebraska and no one can understand that here.

by the way i saw on the news last week or so that bin laden had originally planned half a dozen attacks on the west coast too. the targets that were picked out were not political targets if i remember right. but those plans were dropped, partly because of the illegitmacy and because it would&#39;ve made the plan too big and added risks of exposure.

[B.H.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 07:25 PM
Bin Laden is pretty rich so I highly doubt that the WTC were directed at Capitalism, read Noam Chomsky&#39;s 9-11 for more on this.
Greg Palast over at Greg Palast.com traces the 9-1-1 attacks to a possible business deal gone bad between the bin-Laden family, the Bushes, and the Saudis. He documents that Bush ordered the investigations into bin Laden shut down when he became president as a measure to keep his own dealings with the man covered.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I agree with Alejandro C that the trade towers and the Pentagon are symbolic targets... by the way, AC, you&#39;re a Nebraskan, too? Do you live in Lincoln? Omaha? PM me if you don&#39;t want to share with the whole board.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

B.H. and Greg Palast may be on to something...

The Bushes and the bin Ladens have been in business together for a long time. Bush has tried to keep intelligence away from Saudi Arabia.

[B.H.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 06:02 AM
It&#39;s too bad that someone in the Arab world or one of his henchmen doesn&#39;t have the guts to say to the guy that he is full of shit.

He uses capitalism as an excuse, yet he has money coming out of his arse. He is like those teens from wealthy homes that think poverty is cool. Fuck off already.

He uses Islam as a front for his cause, but his actions completely nullify his qualifications. Just because you run around in a sheet in the mountains and invoke Allah&#39;s name at every turn does not a Muslim make.

He uses Palestine as a reason for his crimes. What the fuck has he done for them lately? They still live in emotionally crippling poverty in Gaza and the Palestinians are worse off then they have been in ages.

Someone do us all a favour and unplug his kidney.
The Koran EXPLICITLY forbids taking out noncombatants like the people in the towers.

If he had to fuck with us, to be consistent with his religion he had to attack purely military or government targets nad left the civilian population alone.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I think bin Laden is an example of how fundamentalists--supposedly the best or most religious--are often among the least true to religious doctrine. Clearly, killing thousands of civilians in an attack like we had on 9/11 is in violation of a peaceful religion like Islam.

[B.H.]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 1 2003, 07:10 PM
B.H. and Greg Palast may be on to something...

The Bushes and the bin Ladens have been in business together for a long time. Bush has tried to keep intelligence away from Saudi Arabia.
It was the Saudis who funded George W. Bushe&#39;s oil company in Texas back in the 70&#39;s. In fact, they bought him out to help him avoid financial collapse if I remember one of Greg&#39;s articles right.

Bush is intellectually equivalent to a squid. HOWEVER, he is very much "street smart". He know&#39;s how to get what he wants and what he wants is to make &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;. You don&#39;t have to be a genius to get money, just a SOB with other SOB&#39;s wanting &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036; too.

[B.H.]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 1 2003, 07:23 PM
I think bin Laden is an example of how fundamentalists--supposedly the best or most religious--are often among the least true to religious doctrine. Clearly, killing thousands of civilians in an attack like we had on 9/11 is in violation of a peaceful religion like Islam.
Bush plays on religion in the same way. It gives him a very powerful base of support.

Have you ever noticed how the Christian fundies hate tax supported welfare and demand the Ten Commandments, Lord&#39;s Prayer, and so on be put back in schools, yet they obviously don&#39;t read the same Old Testament where people had a right to glean other people&#39;s fields for food, tithes were mandatory to feed the poor and priests, you couldn&#39;t charge interest on loans, no permanent reposession of property if a loan went bad, ect? In other words the poor and needy were to be taken care of by state sponsored policy and law. Next time a Christian tells me governemnt aid, ect. is inefficient and wasteful, I&#39;m going to show him all those places in the Bible and say that if the shoe fits he should wear it.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I just read Molly Ivin&#39;s Shrub, about Bush&#39;s life as an oilman and governor. She corroborates the story about Bush and the bin Ladens in Texas oil. Speaking of Bush, he does indeed rely very heavily on the religious right. Ivin&#39;s book is interesting--it seems that though Bush is a fundamentalist himself, he seems to be consciously using the religious right for their votes. He only gives them enough to keep them happy, and does not try to associate much with them in public.

[toastedmonkey]

It seems, obviously media influnced, you have all accepted that it was Osama Bin Laden and friends who carried these attacks out.
It was the media who revealed to the world that it was Osama behind the attacks, the american goverment are yet to produce any from of evidence that proves this is the case.

I find it extremely strange, how usually following a &#39;terroist&#39; attack, the first thing the media do is look through the history books to find what significant politcal or religous acts have happened on that day (births, deaths, assinations, victories etc). Yet 28 years to the day before (as mentioned in an early topic) the newly socialist bound Chille came under heavy attack from america, in which the leaders, anyone of importance and thousands of people, guilty of only supporting socialism, were killed.
Yet not once in a single British newspaper have i seen the slightest mention of this horredous attack.

A very puzzuling act indeed.

Would it not of made more sense if people who were victims of that atrocity were responsible for this attack.
Then again this version would not of supported the White House attack on Afghanistan and Iraq... for oil.

I did not agree with the attacks
I dont think they have really damaged America

But those attacks did not jusitify the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan, nor the inevitable future wars on any country america decide are &#39;hiding international terroists&#39;.
And in this sense ONLY, i agree with the attacks on 9/11 2001, a big thing was made in the media of how 3 thousands people died on that day, from so many countries. But when compared to the innocent lives lost since then in Afghanistan and Iraq, it begins to be justified.

Im 17 and so havent seen alot in this world but, i have been filled with lots of Capitalsit propoganda shite. Which i have questioned and only rejected when i have justification for so.
In my short life, 9/11 2001 was the first retaliation to american imperialism i have witnessed, i feel it was about time someone showed america they cant police the earth and murder anyone who has a differing opinion to them.
They arent invincible and like the &#39;mighty twin towers&#39; they can fall

[LuZhiming]

I only read the first page of the topic, but it seems many people here have accepted the idea that bin Laden&#39;s only goal is a religous one. From what I gather, that is one of his goals, but the other seems to be, driving the West out of the Muslim world. He really has been angry at the U.S. for staying in Saudi Arabia, launching sanctions that killed thousands of Iraqi children, strengthening Saddam Hussein, etc.