Marxist-Leninists support The Holocaust!

[The Man]

So I was in History class today, and it was 26 Capitalists. vs. 1 Anarcho-Communist. Anyways I was talking about Anti-Zionism, and my teacher said "Marxist-Leninists, and other Communists support the Holocaust because they are Anti-Zionist. They are extremely discriminatory against Jews."

I flipped out and started yelling at him, even though I don't agree with M-Ls. I thought I'd let you guys know. :D

Your thoughts on this ridiculous assumption?


Comrade Lycanthrope

[Rafiq]

What was his response to you yelling at that stupid bastard?

[PhoenixAsh]

You should not get mad and start yelling...then you immediately loose a debate...though in this case fully understandable.

Perhaps next time you could ask him if he supports the genocide against and the expulsion of palestinians from their land in reply...seeing as that is the main goal of zionism. smash the ball back in his court and put him on the defensive.

and also state that you do not like his implication and you feel deeply insulted by his hate speech since obviously thsi means that critical evaluation of philosophies and political though is not appreciated and the argument akin to the arguments of the prosecution and judges in the Streicher trails. Ask him, seeing that he uses the same kind of reasoning...he agrees with those trials.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Of course they supported the holocaust, that's why the Soviet Union liberated concentration camps and (originally) supported the creation of the Israeli state.

[The Man]

What was his response to you yelling at that stupid bastard?

Honestly, I was thrown out of the class for disruption. He says "You want to teach the class? I'm the teacher, I know what I'm doing."

Comrade Lycanthrope

[L.A.P.]

Thanks for the back-up.:thumbup: Anarchists got our backs.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Eh - it's a common Zionist trick: 1) "Zionist=Jewish." 2) ergo, "anti-Zionist=anti-semite=Holocaust denier." 3) X=anti-Zionist, ergo X=Holocaust denier.

You're lucky. This syllogism is frequently used in Europe to shut up all opponents of Zionism, including Jews. In France, for instance, Jews whose parents died in the camps have been heavily fined for "inciting racial hatred" by French judges whose parents sent them there.:cursing:

[Chimurenga.]

Your teacher is an idiot who equates Zionism and Judaism. You should refer him to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.

[Decolonize The Left]

So I was in History class today, and it was 26 v. 1 Capitalists vs. Anarcho-Communist. Anyways I was talking about Anti-Zionism, and my teacher said "Marxist-Leninists, and other Communists support the Holocaust because they are Anti-Zionist. They are extremely discriminatory against Jews."

I flipped out and started yelling at him, even though I don't agree with M-Ls. I thought I'd let you guys know. :D

Your thoughts on this ridiculous assumption?


Comrade Lycanthrope

I would consider reporting this action. Your teacher has, in effect, accused you of supporting the holocaust and antisemitism. I would report this to his superior. Assuming he's a teacher within the History department, report him to the department head. If that garners no response, go higher, maybe to the Dean of Students.

I would preface my report with an apology for making a scene, and while you are apologetic in regards to raising your voice and acting out of hand, you still feel as though it was somewhat justified given the severity of claims being made against you and completely without justification.

Do this first as it lets your teacher know that you aren't going to be pushed around simply because he is 'the teacher.'

- August

[PhoenixAsh]

Of course they supported the holocaust, that's why the Soviet Union liberated concentration camps and (originally) supported the creation of the Israeli state.

while the US initially did not...indeed

[PhoenixAsh]

Honestly, I was thrown out of the class for disruption. He says "You want to teach the class? I'm the teacher, I know what I'm doing."

For sure...unfortunately knowing what you are doing does not automatically imply knowing what you are talking about.

[Nolan]

Lol I didn't know I supported the holocaust.

[scarletghoul]

Haha, I love how we're simultaneously a Jewish Conspiracy and supporters of the Holocaust

[9]

Of course they supported the holocaust, that's why the Soviet Union liberated concentration camps and (originally) supported the creation of the Israeli state.
and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.

[scarletghoul]

and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.
What ? While there were some terrible anti-Semitic incidents in the history of the USSR, overall it has been a great friend of the Jewish people, and its pretty ridiculous to say it was anything like as bad as Tsarist Russia.

[Red_Struggle]

Sounds like your teacher needs a lobotamy...

EDIT:


and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.

wut

[9]

What ? While there were some terrible anti-Semitic incidents in the history of the USSR, overall it has been a great friend of the Jewish people

whatever that means


and its pretty ridiculous to say it was anything like as bad as Tsarist Russia.
I think maybe you should reread my comment, a little more carefully this time.

[Sir Comradical]

Honestly, I was thrown out of the class for disruption. He says "You want to teach the class? I'm the teacher, I know what I'm doing."

Comrade Lycanthrope

'Yeah sure' would have been the appropriate answer. You should also ask him why Israel plans to erect a monument dedicated to the Red Army.

[gorillafuck]

and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.I also don't know what you're talking about, 9.

Elaborate.

[9]

oh come on - the purges of all the "trotskyite" traitors of the motherland and their families; the doctors' plot; night of the murdered poets; rootless cosmopolitanism....

[gorillafuck]

I'm confused about how those are examples of official anti-semitism with the exception of the doctors plot. Granted that I've never even heard of those last two things.

[Toppler]

Are they going to claim next that Marxist-Leninists barbecue babies alive and then eat them because of sheer evil they have in their hearts?

[The Man]

I'm confused about how those are examples of official anti-semitism with the exception of the doctors plot. Granted that I've never even heard of those last two things.

The Night of the Murdered Poets was apparently when 15 Jews were charged for espionage and treason.


Much more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets

Comrade Lycanthrope

[scarletghoul]

While obviously things like the night of the murdered poets and the doctors plot were awful and antisemitic, they were nothing like as bad as the pogroms of the tsarist era. Its absurd and slanderous that anyone would compare them, equating the mass murder of 1000s of Jews with the (terrible but not comparable) persecution of some Jewish intellectuals. it really belittles the pogroms, and ignores the fact that soviet russia made great advances in protecting the jews from that kind of thing and promoting multi ethnic solidarity

[Sir Comradical]

oh come on - the purges of all the "trotskyite" traitors of the motherland and their families; the doctors' plot; night of the murdered poets; rootless cosmopolitanism....

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

[Hiero]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

That's correct, though I would extend Stalin to the political structure as whole. It wasn't personally Stalin, but the whole Stalinist management. But I don't think Stalin initiated any Jewish pograms, but maybe people in power a few echelons down, such as local authorities may have been anti-semitic.

[Ocean Seal]

Haha, I love how we're simultaneously a Jewish Conspiracy and supporters of the Holocaust
Yes, for capitalists it tends to depend on what is convenient. When the capitalists are using anti-semitism as a rallying point for nationalism we are the Jewish conspiracy. When capitalists are using Judaism as a claim to support imperialist atrocities we're anti-semitic. Also capitalists tend to always equate us with the scapegoat religion at the time.

1930's Germany == Jewish conspiracy
2010 America (Glenn Beck) == Caliphate communism

[DaringMehring]

I'm not a "Marxist-Leninist" but I would have done the same thing.

It's alright to get mad & to yell, when the provocation is enough. You did fine.

[The Red Next Door]

What the fuck, we need more leftist teachers in the school or teachers, who really know there stuff.

[Robocommie]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.

[Rusty Shackleford]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.
so thats why everyone is so fucked up by the time they are 20.

[Toppler]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

This. Some people want to really prove that Stalin hated Jews, Ukrainians etc.
They are wrong. He just didn't give a shit about the ethnicity of the "enemies" he was killing.
Also, many MLs don't fully support Stalin and some don't support him at all.

[Robocommie]

so thats why everyone is so fucked up by the time they are 20.

Yeah, college level history education basically consists of unscrewing your head, cleaning out the bullshit, and putting in better stuffing before screwing it back on.

Actually, my favorite history professor said it best; "History in primary and secondary education is not taught to understand the past. It's taught to build nationalism." It's why we're generally brought up to believe that the Pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock was the symbolic beginning of the American colonies, even though it was preceded by Jamestown, even though they were both preceded by St. Augustine in Florida. Jamestown had slavery, and St. Augustine was Spanish-speaking. Neither serve very well as the foundation points of an Anglo-Saxon national mythology, and that's exactly what history before the university level is meant to do - build a national mythology.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yeah, college level history education basically consists of unscrewing your head, cleaning out the bullshit, and putting in better stuffing before screwing it back on.
and then you become a democrat until you are 35-40 and then you vote for bush :lol:

[Ocean Seal]

Nice to know that you had another tendency covered. Even though I'm not an anarchist, I have your backs whenever people start with the whole anarchy is chaos crap, or use anarchy to describe Somalia.

[The Red Next Door]

Nice to know that you had another tendency covered. Even though I'm not an anarchist, I have your backs whenever people start with the whole anarchy is chaos crap, or use anarchy to describe Somalia.

That what i try to tell a classmate of mine, he said i was wrong, even know i told i was an ex-anarchist.

[9]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.
I don't know whether or not the ruling caste actually persecuted people because they were Jewish, but there was certainly a willingness to exploit and utilize anti-Semitism in the persecution of the opposition.

Not that I expect the words of Trotsky to hold much weight in the eyes of a Maoist, but just in case...


Originally Posted by Trotsky
He who attentively observes Soviet life, even if only through official publications, will from time to time see bared in various parts of the country hideous bureaucratic abscesses: bribery, corruption, embezzlement, murder of persons whose existence is embarrassing to the bureaucracy, violation of women and the like. Were we to slash vertically through, we should see that every such abscess resulted from the bureaucratic stratum. Sometimes Moscow is constrained to resort to demonstration trials. In all such trials the Jews inevitably comprise a significant percentage, in part because, as we already stated, they make up a great part of the bureaucracy and are branded with its odium, partly because, impelled by the instinct for self-preservation, the leading cadre of the bureaucracy at the center and in the provinces strives to divert the indignation of the working masses from itself to the Jews. This fact was known to every critical observer in the USSR as far back as ten years ago, when Stalin regime had hardly as yet revealed its basic features.

The struggle against the Opposition was for the ruling clique a question of life and death. The program, principles, ties with the masses, everything was rooted out and cast aside because of the anxiety of the new ruling clique for its self-preservation. These people stop at nothing on order to guard their privileges and power. Recently an announcement was released to the whole world, to the effect that my youngest son, Sergei Sedov, was under indictment for plotting mass poisoning of the workers. Every normal person will conclude: people capable of preferring such a charge have reached the last degree of moral degradation. Is it possible in that case to doubt even for a moment that these same accusers are capable of fostering the anti-Semitic prejudices of the masses? Precisely in the case of my son, both these depravities are united. It is worthwhile to consider this case. From the day of their birth, my sons bore the name of their mother (Sedov). They never used any other name – neither at elementary school, nor at the university, nor in their later life. As for me, during the past thirty-four years I have borne the name of Trotsky. During the Soviet period no one ever called me by the name of my father (Bronstein), just as no one ever called Stalin Dzhugashvili. In order not to oblige my sons to change their name, I, for “citizenship” requirements, took on the name of my wife (which, according to Soviet law, is fully permissible). However, after my son, Sergei Sedov, was charged with the utterly incredible accusation of plotting to poison workers, the GPU announced in the Soviet and foreign press the “real” (!) name of my son is not Sedov but Bronstein. If these falsifiers wished to emphasize the connection of the accused with me, they would have called him Trotsky since politically the name Bronstein means nothing at all to anyone. But they were out for another game; that is, they wished to emphasize my Jewish origin and the semi-Jewish origin of my son. I paused at this episode because it has a vital and yet not at all exceptional character. The whole struggle against the Opposition is full of such episodes.

Between 1923 and 1926, when Stalin, with Zinoviev and Kamenev, was still a member of the “Troika,” the play on the strings of anti-Semitism bore a very cautious and masked character. Especially schooled orators (Stalin already then led an underhanded struggle against his associates) said that the followers of Trotsky are petty bourgeois from “small towns” without defining their race. Actually that was untrue. The percentage of Jewish intellectuals in the Opposition was in no case any greater than that in the party and in the bureaucracy. It is sufficient to name the leaders of the Opposition for the years 1923-25. I.N. Smirnov, Serebryakov, Rakovsky, Piatakov, Preobrazhensky, Krestinsky, Muralov, Beloborodov, Mrachkovsky, V. Yakovlev, Sapronov, V.M. Smirnov, Ishtchenko – fully indigenous Russians. Radek at the time was only half-sympathetic. But, as in the trials of the grafters and other scoundrels, so at the time of the expulsions of the Opposition from the party, the bureaucracy purposely emphasized the names of Jewish members of casual and secondary importance. This was quite openly discussed in the party, and, back in 1925, the Opposition saw in this situation the unmistakable symptom of the decay of the ruling clique.

After Zinoviev and Kamanev joined the Opposition the situation changed radically for the worse. At this point there opened wide a perfect chance to say to the workers that at the head of the Opposition stand three “dissatisfied Jewish intellectuals.” Under the direction of Stalin, Uglanov in Moscow and Kirov in Leningrad carried through this line systematically and almost fully in the open. In order the more sharply to demonstrate to the workers the differences between the “old” course and the “new,” the Jews, even when unreservedly devoted to the general line, were removed from responsible party and Soviet posts. Not only in the country but even in the Moscow factories the baiting of the Opposition back in 1926 often assumed a thoroughly obvious anti-Semitic character. Many agitators spoke brazenly: “The Jews are rioting.” I received hundreds of letters deploring the anti-Semitic methods in the struggle with the Opposition. At one of the sessions of the Politburo I wrote Bukharin a note: “You cannot help knowing that even in Moscow in the struggle with the Opposition, methods of Black Hundred demagogues (anti-Semitism, etc.) are utilized.” Bukharin answered me evasively on that same piece of paper: “Individual instances, of course, are possible.” I again wrote: “I have in mind not individual instances but a systematic agitation among the party secretaries at large Moscow enterprises. Will you agree to come with me to investigate an example of this at the factory ’Skorokhod’ (I know a number of other such examples).” Bukharin answered, “All right, we can go.” In vain I tried to make him carry out the promise. Stalin most categorically forbade him to do so. In the months of preparations for the expulsions of the Opposition from the party, the arrests, the exiles (in the second half of 1927), the anti-Semitic agitation assumed a thoroughly unbridled character. The slogan, “Beat the Opposition,” often took on the complexion of the old slogan “Beat the Jews and save Russia.” The matter went so far that Stalin was constrained to come out with a printed statement which declared: “We fight against Trotsky, Zinoviev and Kamenev not because they are Jews but because they are Oppositionists,” etc. To every politically thinking person it was completely clear that this consciously equivocal declaration, directed against “excesses” of anti-Semitism, did at the same time with complete premeditation nourish it. “Do not forget that the leaders of the Opposition are – Jews.” That was the meaning of the statement of Stalin, published in all Soviet journals.

When the Opposition, to meet the repressions, proceeded with a more decisive and open struggle, Stalin, in the form of a very significant “jest”, told Piatakov and Preobrazhensky: “You at the least are fighting against the C.E., openly brandishing your axes. That proves your ’orthodox’ action. Trotsky works slyly and not with a hatchet.” Preobrazhensky and Piatakov related this conversation to me with strong revulsion. Dozens of times Stalin attempted to counterpose the “orthodox” core of the Opposition to me.

The well known German radical journalist, the former editor of Aktion, Franz Pfemfert, at present in exile, wrote me in August 1936:

“Perhaps you remember that several years ago in Aktion I declared that many actions of Stalin can be explained by his anti-Semitic tendencies. The fact that in this monstrous trial he, through Tass, managed to ‘correct’ the names of Zinoviev and Kamenev represents, by itself, a gesture in typical Streicher style. In this manner Stalin gave the ‘Go’ sign to all anti-Semitic, unscrupulous elements.”
In fact the names, Zinoviev and Kamenev, it would seem, are more famous than the names of Radomislyski and Rozenfeld. What other motives could Stalin have had to make known the “real” names of his victims, except to play with anti-Semitic moods? Such an act, and without the slightest legal justification, was, as we have seen, likewise committed over the name of my son. But, undoubtedly, the most astonishing thing is the fact that all four “terrorists” allegedly sent by me from abroad turned out to be Jews and – at the same time – agents of the anti-Semitic Gestapo! Inasmuch as I have ever actually seen any of these unfortunates, it is clear that the GPU deliberately selected them because of their racial origin. And the GPU does not function by virtue of its own inspiration!
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/02/therm.htm

[Thirsty Crow]

Your thoughts on this ridiculous assumption?

Old trick: invoke the historical horrors of anti-semitism when faced with a criticism of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.
A classic move. Your reaction paints a nice picture of its aim: to induce a strong emotional response, most obviously destined to shut the critic up.

[Sir Comradical]

I don't know whether or not the ruling caste actually persecuted people because they were Jewish, but there was certainly a willingness to exploit and utilize anti-Semitism in the persecution of the opposition.

Not that I expect the words of Trotsky to hold much weight in the eyes of a Maoist, but just in case...

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/02/therm.htm

I have yet to see any such Stalinist propaganda until now, so lets have a look.

"Stalin stages trials which accuse the Trotskyists of plotting to poison workers, then it is not difficult to imagine to what foul depths the bureaucracy can resort in some Ukrainian or central Asiatic hovel!"

^ I suspect this refers to the anti-semitic charge that jews poison wells, right? However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.

[LordAcheron]

Did he forget that the Soviets despised the nazis or something? I mean he's a history teacher for fucks sake :laugh:

[RED DAVE]

I would consider reporting this action. Your teacher has, in effect, accused you of supporting the holocaust and antisemitism. I would report this to his superior. Assuming he's a teacher within the History department, report him to the department head. If that garners no response, go higher, maybe to the Dean of Students.

I would preface my report with an apology for making a scene, and while you are apologetic in regards to raising your voice and acting out of hand, you still feel as though it was somewhat justified given the severity of claims being made against you and completely without justification.

Do this first as it lets your teacher know that you aren't going to be pushed around simply because he is 'the teacher.'

- AugustThis is right on. As a teacher and a Jew who lost perhaps 1/3 of my family in the holocaust, I strongly suggest that you fight back on this. We will help you.

RED DAVE

[syndicat]

the accusation that opposition to Zionism is "anti-semitism" is the last desperate line of defense used by defenders of the discriminatory Israeli state in the U.S. Steve Shalom has a very good refutation of the latest versions of this argument on ZNet:

http://www.zcommunications.org/anti-semitism-and-the-israel-palestine-conflict-by-stephen-shalom

By definiing Israel as a "Jewish state" and denying equal rights to the indigenous Palestinian population, and expelling them from their own country (as hundreds of thousands were) and seizing their lands, the Israeli state pursues a policy that is as racist as that which built the USA thru similar genocide and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous American Indians. The Palestinians are themselves a semitic people (and many probably have ancient Judeans as ancestors), so in that sense Zionism is "anti-semitic."

if this teacher said that "Marxists-Leninists" "deny the Holocaust", that is really beyond the pale. i'm no friend of MLism but that's just an outright falsehood. even tho I'm an ex-teacher, i agree with the idea of reporting the teacher for this kind of behavior.

[9]

I have yet to see any such Stalinist propaganda until now
Well I guess that might be part of the problem...


However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.So what are you saying?

[resurgence]

, right? However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.

You are on dangerous ground, where did Trotsky admit such a thing? I mean base reaction should not be pandered too...And even if Trotsky did, well so what?

[scarletghoul]

We all agree that anti-Semitism was used or at least left unopposed by some people in the party/state, and I hope we all agree that that was terrible and unjustified. The only questions are 1, who used it and 2, to what extent.

My opinion is that 1, Stalin wasn't an anti-Semite but he bears overall responsibility for what happened on his watch and as a part of his purges etc etc, and 2, the scale of anti-Semitism was nothing like that of Tsarist Russia or other Eastern European countries in the 1930s, and its absolutely ridiculous to claim otherwise.

[Amphictyonis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

Your teacher is probably getting his misguided view from a perversion of "The Jewish Question". Having that said antisemitism was almost the norm in Marx's time. You should read some of Bakunins views concerning Jews. I think Marx was mainly against religion and saw the Jewish religion/culture as a threat to communism. I'm no authority on the subject so.....I do know it's obvious which nation lost the most soldiers/people fighting the NAZI's (Russia).

[9]

nevermind; not worth arguing the point further.

[zimmerwald1915]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

Your teacher is probably getting his misguided view from a perversion of "The Jewish Question". Having that said antisemitism was almost the norm in Marx's time. You should read some of Bakunins views concerning Jews. I think Marx was mainly against religion and saw the Jewish religion/culture as a threat to communism. I'm no authority on the subject so.....I do know it's obvious which nation lost the most soldiers/people fighting the NAZI's (Russia).
What exactly leads you to believe this? If someone is ignorant enough of Marxism to claim that it is antisemitic (leaving the question of whether the USSR as a state was antisemitic aside) they're hardly going to be familiar with a fairly obscure and early work by Marx. Also, if someone does bring up that particular book, a better argument defending it than "everyone was antisemitic to some degree" is "that book is an argument for the abolition of legal restrictions on Jewish participation in social life."

[Amphictyonis]

What exactly leads you to believe this? If someone is ignorant enough of Marxism to claim that it is antisemitic (leaving the question of whether the USSR as a state was antisemitic aside) they're hardly going to be familiar with a fairly obscure and early work by Marx. Also, if someone does bring up that particular book, a better argument defending it than "everyone was antisemitic to some degree" is "that book is an argument for the abolition of legal restrictions on Jewish participation in social life."

I sometimes assume most teachers have a well rounded education :) This obviously isnt a fcat.

[Sir Comradical]

Well I guess that might be part of the problem...

So what are you saying?

Buddy, you're the one who claimed that Jews in the Soviet Union were targeted with extermination in an episode even worse than in the dying days of tsarist rule and comparable to the systematic extermination of jews during the holocaust. Suffice it to say that this initial contention of yours is toweringly and laughably wrong.


You are on dangerous ground, where did Trotsky admit such a thing? I mean base reaction should not be pandered too...And even if Trotsky did, well so what?

Thats the thing, the problem is cultural backwardness from below which was in its death throes until gorbie's capitalist restoration came along.

[9]

Buddy, you're the one who claimed that Jews in the Soviet Union were targeted with extermination in an episode even worse than in the dying days of tsarist rule and comparable to the systematic extermination of jews during the holocaust.

That's funny, I don't remember saying any such thing; maybe you could show me where I made such a claim? Or you could save us both some trouble and just admit that you're lying. In reality, what I said was this:



Originally Posted by Apoi_Viitor http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2032402#post2032402)
Of course they supported the holocaust, that's why the Soviet Union liberated concentration camps and (originally) supported the creation of the Israeli state.and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.


Suffice it to say that this initial contention of yours is toweringly and laughably wrong.

The "Soviet" state under Stalin murdered tens of thousands of Jews on trumped up charges of 'counterrevolutionary activity'. While I don't know what the 'combined' deathtoll from all the tsarist anti-jewish pogroms is, or whether any such figure even exists, I do know that - with one exception - every single tsarist pogrom with which I'm familiar had a death toll in the double digits i.e. less than 100.

My original claim, which I quoted above (and which I stand by completely), was a claim about the amount of Jews murdered, not about levels of antisemitism in Russian society or the intentions of the murderers or any of the other strawmen that have been set up.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Anti-Semitism definitely did exist in Stalin's Russia, to a significant extent (although just how bad it was is subject to debate).

From Stalinism As A Way Of Life:


The old workers, moreover, were hostile not only toward those with rural backgrounds but also toward those who, responding to mass appeals, had come from far away to work in industry. One of the documents tells how miners jeered Komsomel members mobilized for work in the mines of the Donbass, doing everything they could to drive them out. In mine no. 1 in Shcheglovka, Komsomol members "were met with hostility. At first the miners cursed them, then they began to act openly against them. The cutting instructor deliberately sent them to work in a shaft tunnel not shored up. A collapse resulted. One [Komsomol member] was smothered, another suffered a broken leg, a third escaped with bruises. When they were going down the shaft to a tunnel at that same place, a machine operator started his cutter and a huge chunk of coal...knocked out the rib of one Komsomol member." Evidence of anti-Semitism is also reported. In mine no. 29 in Makeyevka "they terrorize Jews at every turn, threatening to kill them if they don't leave." Among mine workers, conversations of this type took place: "Jewboys came to us from Berdichev. D'ya think they're really gonna work? They go into mines wearing their coats, just like they're at a health resort...four hundred and fifty Komsomol members, all kikes, are coming to us in Budyonnovka. We'll see how well they're gonna work."


A couple of female workers [at a Leningrad factory] talk to one another.

"Those damn bastards, they won't give you time off," says a weaver to her work pal.

"But where we are ain't so bad," says a young weaver wearing a red handkerchief. "Not a single Komsomol member in our section, and when one does show up, we immediately make it hot for her." And, looking around nervously, she breaks into a shrill laugh.

"Parasites like you oughta be driven out of the factory," declares a male voice addressing the female workers.

"Don't even bother to talk to him," says an elderly weaver, turning to a coworker. "He must be one of those promotees: has a pencil sticking out of his pocket."

"Can't you tell he's a Jew?" declares a third woman laconically after taking a good look at the facial features of the stranger. "Everyone knows who the Jews stand up for."

I'd say bigotry based on other issues was stronger, though, namely bigotry against poor people who came from rural backgrounds. The government of the USSR during the Stalin period was evidently not very successful at bringing workers together...in fact in some ways it promoted bitter resentments amoungst the working class.

Anti-Semitism was definitely a problem, though, and I don't think that it was in the process of being "stamped out", especially when you look at the statements and actions of latter-day Stalinist toadies like Wladyslaw Gomulka in Poland.

(this has gotten kind of OT, though)

[HEAD ICE]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.

(before I begin this post, I am not assuming this is your argument)

While college faculty may very well lean to the left, I have yet to find one professor (you can throw David Harvey, Michael Parenti, and all other "Marxists" into that lot) who argue that society's ills derive from people's material existence.

It should be remembered that the University is a complete and wholly bourgeois institution. From personal experience, this is well confirmed. Even the most solid "left" wing professors shy away from any type of class or materialist analysis. The identity politics that infects the "academic left" does not in any way enlighten anybody, in fact it poses an obstacle. This should be expected though given that the University, I repeat, is a bourgeois institution and tries to ingrain bourgeois ideology.

Even professors who claim to be "Marxist" end up peddling bourgeois thought or bourgeois solutions. David Harvey, who has become quite popular recently, his solutions to the economic crisis (btw, Harvey rejects the tendency of the rate of profit to fall) advocates Keynsian solutions, not workers revolution. While Michael Parenti talks about class, I haven't seen him advocate any solutions beyond reforming the system (I haven't even seen him call himself Marxist except saying that "some forms of reality are Marxist"). Even my favorite "Marxist" academic, Adolph Reed, though he has given thorough whoopings to the bourgeois identity politics of the "left wing professors" he too shys away from offering any solutions and he often drifts into blatant idealism in his analysis.

This is exactly how Marxists would expect this to play out. Marxists can't reform a capitalist weapon like the university; the university reforms the Marxist into a soldier of the bourgeoisie.

The university is an obstacle and a hindrance to class consciousness and must be fought against by any self-respecting revolutionary.

EDIT:

I came across this comment on Facebook about a Lady Gaga music video that proves my point that the University corrupts rather than enlightens and defends rather than challenges the bourgeoisie:


Of course people can *talk* about patriarchy and heteronormativity outside of academia, but academia is certainly how/where those things are understood as part of hegemonic systems of oppression. I mean let's be real: the gay rights movement has operated under the liberal tradition (ie, gay access to heterosexual institutions) for years, but it's only been within the last 30 years that that tradition has been aggressively challenged...particularly by academics. I don't say any of this as a defender of academic feminism/queer theory, but as someone who is actually critical of it, who sees it as privileged. I think the point here is not to defend LG's ignorance, but to understand that her (and most people's) understanding of feminism/queerness is not going to go all that far outside of the liberal tradition of access, assimilation, etc, because that has been the dominant tradition for years.

Even though I focused on feminism/queerness, I'd also apply this to how people understand anti-racism as well. I am all for criticizing dominant modes of thinking, but I also think some of the more radical ideas are less accessible and privileged.Where the hell is my puke bag? How does any of this even begin to challenge anything at all, let alone class based society. Though people who diarrhea this type of academic "leftism" out of their mouths will say "of course we should oppose capitalism." Whatever that means.

[Sir Comradical]

That's funny, I don't remember saying any such thing; maybe you could show me where I made such a claim? Or you could save us both some trouble and just admit that you're lying. In reality, what I said was this:





The "Soviet" state under Stalin murdered tens of thousands of Jews on trumped up charges of 'counterrevolutionary activity'. While I don't know what the 'combined' deathtoll from all the tsarist anti-jewish pogroms is, or whether any such figure even exists, I do know that - with one exception - every single tsarist pogrom with which I'm familiar had a death toll in the double digits i.e. less than 100.

My original claim, which I quoted above (and which I stand by completely), was a claim about the amount of Jews murdered, not about levels of antisemitism in Russian society or the intentions of the murderers or any of the other strawmen that have been set up.

Yes, but Stalin didn't murder Jews because they were Jewish, so it's wrong to compare the USSR under Stalin to the pogroms under the ancien-regime. I'm sure the deathtolls for the various pogroms were much greater than 100 jews, you should also include the Jews murdered (for being Jews) during the civil war - that deathtoll is in the thousands.

[Lord Testicles]

You should not get mad and start yelling...then you immediately loose a debate.

I've heard differently.

ErFKxSjpXdI

[EspirituDeAmaru]

Everything has been said here lol but i totally agree. Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic. Marx and Lenin were Jews by birth lol. No one denies the holocaust but zionists have clearly exploited the idea to push forward with the justification of colonizing palestine. The original Jews did not support zionism, only wanted assimilation into other societies.

[No_Leaders]

Anyone here hear of the seattle general strike? IN 1919 workers went on strike and effectively shut down seattle without force. This is quoted from wikipedia.


A cooperative body made up of rank and file workers from all the striking locals was formed during the strike, called the General Strike Committee. It acted as a "virtual counter-government for the city." The committee organized to provide essential services for the people of Seattle during the work stoppage. For instance, garbage that would create a health hazard was collected, and firemen remained on duty. Exemptions to the stoppage of labor had to be passed by the Strike Committee. In general, work was not halted if doing so would endanger lives.
In other cases, workers acted on their own initiative to create new institutions. Milk wagon drivers, after being denied the right by their employers to keep certain dairies open, established a distribution system of 35 neighborhood milk stations. A system of food distribution was also established, which throughout the strike committee distributed as many as 30,000 meals each day. Strikers paid twenty five cents per meal, and the general public paid thirty five cents. Beef stew, spaghetti, bread, and coffee were offered without charge.


Army veterans created an alternative to the police in order to maintain order. A group called the "Labor War Veteran's Guard" forbade the use of force and did not carry weapons, and used "persuasion only." Peacekeeping proved unnecessary. The regular police forces made no arrests in actions related to the strike, and general arrests dropped to less than half their normal number. Major General John F. Morrison, stationed in Seattle, claimed that he had never seen "a city so quiet and orderly."
The methods of organization adopted by the striking workers bore resemblance to anarcho-syndicalism, perhaps reflecting the influence of the Industrial Workers of the World in the Pacific Northwest, though only a few striking locals were officially affiliated with the IWW.


Of course it was ended by the state calling in the national guard and police. Not to mention internal affairs mostly over union heads getting workers to go back to work. I think it's interesting how it was completely non-violent, of course at that point to defend what they had effectively done i'm sure force would have been needed. Seeing as the state did of course respond with force i.e. police, national guard. So i think revolutions can be non-violent but in order to finish the revolution all the way through, it would require violence from that point on.

[eric922]

If they were so antisemitic then how the hell did Albert Einstein become the chairman of several local branches of the CP-USA?

[Agent Ducky]

You should've gone to the school administration and filed a complaint or something. Maybe futile, but it would mess with them. Let them know you're basically being discriminated against.

[Le Socialiste]

Wow, good for you man. I'm experiencing a similar situation in my Intro to Political Science class; my professor enjoys dismissing socialism/communism as a philosophy/ideology that died out in 1991-92. Yet, for all that, he doesn't hesitate to rail against what he perceives to be the "steady creep of communism over American society". :rolleyes:

As to your experience, I would like to second (or third, or fourth, whatever) the suggestion that you report your teacher's actions. He may be the instructor, but that doesn't give him the right to intentionally (or not, I don't know him) rewrite history. If his goal is to discredit socialism in the eyes of your peers, then he is nothing more than a propagandist posing as an educator, and as such should be dealt with (through the regular channels, or course). While I don't think you should have yelled, he did provoke you into action - and bravo for doing so! I would likely do something similar if my professor started spouting misinformation about my own beliefs and practices.

Anyway, way to stand up for your beliefs. I tip my hat to you, sir. :thumbup1:

[No_Leaders]

oops sorry for that out of place post. i had too many tabs open. meant to post that one in the "Non-Violent Revolution" thread. Just saw that this was posted here instead. Sorry for any confusion! :ohmy:

[daleckian]

Thanks for the misleading title, asswipe.

you get no thanked posts from me. what do you want, praise for defending an obviously superior position?

[RATM-Eubie]

Ohhh boiiii :laugh:
Teachers these days. Seems like this teacher has been all over Glenn Beck recently trying to compare Marxists with Nazi Fascists.... According to beck and what sounds like your teacher Marxists=Nazi=Leftists...

[GallowsBird]

I am a Marxist-Leninist and I am sure I don't support the Holocaust. Also there is the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and the USSR supported the creation of Israel until it learned how imperialist and colonial Israel actually was.

And besides many of the original Marxists were Jewish or descendants of Jews (hence conversely the claims of Marxists supporting Leninism).

[El Chuncho]

This seems to be one of the many unfounded claims thrown at Marxist-Leninists. I know of NO Marxist-Leninists who support the Holocaust. If there are any who do, it would be a minority.

[Thirsty Crow]

I am a Marxist-Leninist and I am sure I don't support the Holocaust. Also there is the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and the USSR supported the creation of Israel until it learned how imperialist and colonial Israel actually was.

Do you wish to maintain that the highest echelons within the Soviet party-state had no idea whatsoever about the conditions in which the Israeli state was being formed?
I guess naivete works.

[gopdotvn]

Thanks :)

[Optiow]

Your teacher is an ignorant idiot, and I am glad you stood up to the bastard.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

YOUR TEACHER IS FUCKIN STUPID. Exuse my language but its true. Zionism has no relevance to the holocaust. Even the Palestinians were pro Zionism during the holocaust. People became anti zionist after it took a militant imperialist turn. Your teacher is dumb

[bcbm]

why is this in discrimination?

[Revmind84]

Wow

[MattShizzle]

Not much to add - as others have pointed out the teacher has no idea what he's talking about. Hell, there are anti-zionist Jews out there. There are even anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors and I'm sure they don't go around "wow, I really wish they hadn't liberated me and my surviving family and had just let the Nazis murder all of us."