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Sinister Cultural Marxist
24th February 2011, 16:47
I just wanted to post this for those who think that these protests in Libya are some kind of eeeevil Imperialist plot by NATO to steal the oil.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8252345.stm


An SAS team has been training Libyan special forces in counter-terrorism techniques, a newspaper claims.
The Daily Telegraph reports that a team of up to 14 men have been providing training in areas including covert surveillance for six months.
An SAS source quoted by the paper suggests a possible link between the training and the release of Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi.

Hey, I wonder if those units might have something to do with the brutal oppression of protesters?

http://news.marweb.com/libya/economics/libya-wto-liberalize-economy-private-economy-active-public.html


The new Libyan prime minister Shukri Ghanem said that Libya intends to apply for the membership of the World Trade Organization. He said that oil will not be privatized, rather will be open to investment, while the public sector will not be removed immediately but will work side by side with the private sector.

...

"Ghanem who was appointed a prime minister last Saturday indicated that the oil sector is vital for Libya's efforts to encourage private sector investments, noting that "talking about oil industry does not mean we are privatizing tomorrow, but oil industry will be ready to receive more investments from foreign companies." He considered that "this will make it imperative for the Libyans themselves gradually to buy shares in the companies listed in the Bourse."He continued that reforms, almost in all sectors, will seek to encourage local and foreign private investments. Speaking about the pace of reform, he added that "the private sector will carry out a greater role but that does not mean the role of the public sector will end (abruptly) in a single day. They will complete each other."

...

The Libyan prime minister stressed that the new government "is determined to introduce liberalism to the economy and encourage active participatory approach to both the private and public sectors to boost them." Ghanem also talked about lifting the economic embargo from his country in 1999, noting "this will facilitate Libya's integration in the world economy." He reiterated Libya's commitment to the objectives of OPEC which was recently exposed to pressure. He said that one of the challenges facing OPEC is the return back of the Iraqi oil to the market."News Agencies

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7892112/BP-admits-lobbying-UK-over-Libya-prisoner-transfer-scheme-but-not-Lockerbie-bomber.html


BP said it pressed for a deal over the controversial prisoner transfer agreement (PTA) amid fears any delays to negotiations would damage its “commercial interests” and disrupt its £900 million offshore drilling operations in the region.
But it denied claims that it had been involved in negotiations concerning the release of Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber freed by Scottish authorities last year.
The admission came just hours after Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State, pledged to investigate allegations of BP's

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Business/Libya-Eni-is-oil-company-with-most-to-lose-in-Libya_311712801702.html


As the former colonial power, Italy is the biggest investor in Libya and Rome-based Eni is at the forefront of the relationship. Italy’s largest company pumps almost 250,000 barrels a day in the North African country, or about 14 percent of its total production. Eni’s shares dropped the most in 19 months Monday as unrest worsened.
“Italy and particularly Eni are heavily exposed in Libya and stand to lose a great deal if things fall apart,” said Nicolo Sartori, an energy and security researcher at Rome’s IAI Institute for International Affairs. “Eni’s production and exploration interests in the area are considerable.”

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/middle-east-north-africa/libya?ta=lawsCustoms&pg=3


Homosexuality is considered a criminal offence in Libya, for which the minimum prison sentence is three years. The authorities are known to charge and convict homosexuals under this law. Sexual relations outside marriage are also punishable by law.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0223/Qaddafi-s-ties-to-rebel-groups-scrutinized-as-African-mercenaries-patrol-Libya


Although there is little independent media access to verify the events unfolding in Libya, experts say Colonel Qaddafi has strong relationships with various African warlords and rebel groups, some of whom may now be filling the role of for-hire mercenaries. Those ties come from his role in both stirring up and resolving disputes in the troubled African Sahel region, where he has won support and loyalty from African leaders now studiously quiet about the brutal civil conflict in Libya.


“Qaddafi has had a long term relationship with other African nations, and although he was in close relations with all of the presidents of these countries over time, all the rebel groups used to go to Tripoli too, to get funding,” says Thierry Vircoulon, Central African project director for the International Crisis Group in Nairobi. “He played both sides.”


Libya’s aid to its poorer African neighbors may have been an ego boost for a man who liked to see himself as a leader of a unified Africa, but his aid money did very little to help uplift the lives of the very poor, say experts like Vircoulon. Most of the aid comes in the form of investment, from the luxury LAICO (Libyan African Investment Company) hotel chains scattered around many African capitals to the OilLibya petrol stations found in many major African cities. These investments don’t create many jobs, and they certainly don’t do much in the way of uplifting the lives of rural Africans, but they are visible reminders of Libya’s importance on the continent.

Ties to regional rebels and warlords

When Qaddafi did invest in people, they were usually soldiers and quite often rebel leaders. He has reportedly offered training and financial aid to myriad militant groups and figures, including warlords like Liberia's former President Charles Taylor, Sierra Leone's former rebel leader Foday Sankoh, and current Chad President Idriss Deby, also a former rebel leader. Mr. Deby’s government is believed to be heavily reliant on Libya for its budgetary needs.

Gaddhafi is such a brave anti-imperialist! Surely, whatever replaces him will be a dog of the capitalists, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes: NATO already has Gaddhafi's oil, if anything the instability is bad for the EU since it occurred after a long process of trying to draw Libya back into "the West"

If anything, Gaddhafi has turned into an inverse Imperialist ... he profits by bringing foreigners in to oppress his own citizens, while useful idiots in places like Latin America run around calling him some kind of socialist revolutionary

RadioRaheem84
24th February 2011, 19:06
Ok, we get it; Gaddafi is a bad, bad man. I am sure the people of Libya figured that out before any of us and that is why they are in the streets trying to oust him. For now, the Libyan people are fighting two fronts; Gaddafi's repressive forces and any possible international intervention by the West.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
25th February 2011, 00:42
But the Egyptian revolution was just awesome, right? :rolleyes:

Rusty Shackleford
25th February 2011, 00:44
But the Egyptian revolution was just awesome, right? :rolleyes:
what?

Sinister Cultural Marxist
25th February 2011, 00:46
what?

Just seems like there's a double standard where everyone seems more "apprehensive" about Libya than they were about Egypt I'm seeing from a lot of sources, as if of all the revolutions this is the one the CIA/NATO/EU etc might hijack. I don't see why the notion of NATO intervention is so much more of a concern in Libya than it would be in Egypt. If they do, its onl because gaddhafi is more nuts and will not cede power willingly. But what's worse, I've seen a lot of people questioning the authenticity of the protesters

Rusty Shackleford
25th February 2011, 00:54
the situation in libya is very different from the other ones.

Imperialist powers wouldnt militarily intervene against their own clients in tunisia and egypt. those two countries are also not oil producers. they were also clearly client states.

as for NATO wanting to steal the oil, no, they already control it. you are correct. what they dont want is for Qadhafi to order the destruction of the oil fields, or to prevent the flow of oil from Libya to the EU. libya dropped its anti-imperialist stance in the late 90s but still isnt really a client.

redasheville
25th February 2011, 01:02
the situation in libya is very different from the other ones.

Imperialist powers wouldnt militarily intervene against their own clients in tunisia and egypt. those two countries are also not oil producers. they were also clearly client states.

as for NATO wanting to steal the oil, no, they already control it. you are correct. what they dont want is for Qadhafi to order the destruction of the oil fields, or to prevent the flow of oil from Libya to the EU. libya dropped its anti-imperialist stance in the late 90s but still isnt really a client.

This line of reasoning denies the agency of the people of Libya.

Rusty Shackleford
25th February 2011, 01:04
the people of libya are justified in their disgust with the brutal retaliation of the qadhafi government.

the outcome of the situation is the angst inducing issue.

redasheville
25th February 2011, 01:30
the people of libya are justified in their disgust with the brutal retaliation of the qadhafi government.

the outcome of the situation is the angst inducing issue.

Then why not clearly come out in support of the revolt there? Marxists do not view history as teleological. There are germs of many outcomes, as in any event of world historic importance.

PhoenixAsh
25th February 2011, 01:38
Well...most Libyan generals and government offcials who have defected do not want any form of military intervention in Libya. Most who do seem to have been exciled abroad for some time...

gorillafuck
25th February 2011, 01:49
what?It's funny how imperialism in Egypt isn't a talking point in the least whereas imperialism against Libya is, seeing as how Egypt and Lybia are both staunchly pro-imperialist governments.

The Vegan Marxist
25th February 2011, 05:10
It's funny how imperialism in Egypt isn't a talking point in the least whereas imperialism against Libya is, seeing as how Egypt and Lybia are both staunchly pro-imperialist governments.

:confused:

If you're trying to compare the conditions of Egypt to the conditions of Libya, then I fail to see the correlations, besides both leaders being bad men.

As for the value of imperialist intervention, the correlation between Egypt and Libya are quite slim. For one holds a great amount of oil supply, which is on the brink of either being destroyed by Gaddafi (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpresstv.com%2Fdetail%2F166687 .html&h=e4221), or will come into the hands of the protesters - both meaning loss of profit accumulation towards US interests.

This wasn't a factor in Egypt. We had more to worry of what the Egyptian military was going to do towards the protesters than some imperialist intervention. Whereas, imperialist intervention is a very possible threat in Libya's case.

So I fail to see whatever point is trying to be made by you and others by comparing Egypt with Libya.

DaringMehring
25th February 2011, 05:24
US --- hands off Libya!!

But that's hardly a new or important slogan. I mean, don't we all believe, that US should keep its hands off of everywhere?

Anyone who wants to support Gadhafi, against the Will of the People, is a reactionary. The masses of Libya are fighting heroically right now. It is up to them to fight for what they choose. If Gadhafi screwed the country so bad, that they want a neo-liberal regime, that would be tragic, but it is their right --- and Gadhafi's fault, for making that look attractive. But I doubt the majority of the toilers of Libya want to go that route.

The Libyan movement will get strength and progressive influence from Egypt and Tunisia, and conversely, victory in Libya, will push forward the struggle in Egypt and Tunisia.

All support to the revolutions in North Africa! All the way to socialism!

RadioRaheem84
25th February 2011, 07:16
So it's their right if they want neo liberalism but you support the protests nonetheless and victory for socialism?? That's strange.

For the record i doubt the protests are headed in a neoliberal direction but if they were I would not support it because it's their "right".

#FF0000
25th February 2011, 07:27
For the record i doubt the protests are headed in a neoliberal direction but if they were I would not support it because it's their "right".

Libya already serves neoliberal interests.

So does Iran.

Come at me bro

Nolan
25th February 2011, 07:35
Mubarak, Ben Ali and Gaddafi are socialists and the rightful rulers of those countries Mubarak and ben ali are memebers of the socialst international. Arabs should learn to respect authority, including isreael,

Nolan
25th February 2011, 07:43
:confused:

If you're trying to compare the conditions of Egypt to the conditions of Libya, then I fail to see the correlations, besides both leaders being bad men.

As for the value of imperialist intervention, the correlation between Egypt and Libya are quite slim. For one holds a great amount of oil supply, which is on the brink of either being destroyed by Gaddafi (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpresstv.com%2Fdetail%2F166687 .html&h=e4221), or will come into the hands of the protesters - both meaning loss of profit accumulation towards US interests.

This wasn't a factor in Egypt. We had more to worry of what the Egyptian military was going to do towards the protesters than some imperialist intervention. Whereas, imperialist intervention is a very possible threat in Libya's case.

So I fail to see whatever point is trying to be made by you and others by comparing Egypt with Libya.

We should support comrade gaddafi the us is paying people to protest so they can get the oil. they try to ruin hinm like they ruined comrade milosevich

Nolan
25th February 2011, 07:44
It's funny how imperialism in Egypt isn't a talking point in the least whereas imperialism against Libya is, seeing as how Egypt and Lybia are both staunchly pro-imperialist governments.

no gaddafi is a commie like us and mubarak was a member of the socialist international

The Vegan Marxist
25th February 2011, 07:46
Isn't it a bit late to be trolling?

Rusty Shackleford
25th February 2011, 08:11
No, but Nolan made a funny.

i completely forgot about the liberal international.

RadioRaheem84
25th February 2011, 16:29
Libya already serves neoliberal interests.

So does Iran.

Come at me bro

What I meant was that the opposition movements against Gaddafi are probably not calls for neo-liberalism, but if they were I would not support them because its their "right". Just because large swathes of people gather to protest doesn't mean I would support their cause.

Luís Henrique
28th February 2011, 23:56
Imperialist powers wouldnt militarily intervene against their own clients in tunisia and egypt.

They "intervened" quite effectively, without use of the military. Why wouldn't they do the same in Libya?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
1st March 2011, 00:09
What I meant was that the opposition movements against Gaddafi are probably not calls for neo-liberalism, but if they were I would not support them because its their "right". Just because large swathes of people gather to protest doesn't mean I would support their cause.

Of course, if the people in Libya were protesting the closure of a private TV station on the basis that it goes against "free press", or demanding the end of the division of society, or pushing for a crackdown on "crime", I probably would not support them against Gaddafy (though I would oppose, of course, the strafing and bombing of even neoliberal protesters - should we support the repression of Wako?)

But this is counter-factual. The protesters in Libya don't demand the respect for bourgeois property rights, the end of class struggle, or a crackdown on the poor under the pretext of "crime".

Or do they?

Luís Henrique