N. Koreans Protest over power cuts

[StalinFanboy]

SEOUL — Scores of North Koreans have staged a rare public protest against power cuts and food shortages, a South Korean newspaper reported Wednesday.

“We can’t live! Give us light! Give us rice!” the protesters shouted, according to Chosun Ilbo newspaper which quoted a North Korean source.

It said the demonstrations took place at Jongju, Yongchon and Sonchon in the northwestern province of North Pyongan, two days before the birthday on February 16 of leader Kim Jong-Il.

“At first, there were only one or two people, but as time went by more and more came out of their houses and joined in the shouting,” the source said.

Open protests in the tightly-controlled communist state are rare, although a bungled currency revaluation in late 2009 reportedly sparked public unrest.

The State Security Department investigated the incident but was met with a wall of silence, the paper said.

Residents were angry because the regime had diverted already infrequent electricity supplies from the Jongju and Yongchon area to the capital Pyongyang to light up the night there to mark Kim’s birthday, the paper said.

Rice prices have also risen sharply in the North, which has suffered persistent serious food shortages since a famine in the 1990s.

Analysts, however, have played down the prospect of a popular revolt against the regime similar to those in North Africa and the Middle East.

Pyongyang tightly controls access to the Internet, and also attempts to block other sources of information about the outside world.

However a survey by two US academics of some 1,600 refugees from the North found that roughly half of them have access to foreign news or entertainment — a sharp rise from the 1990s.

But they said the country lacks labour, religious or other groups around which opposition could coalesce.

“I don’t see anything in civil society that would lead to a kind of Egyptian phenomenon,” said Stephan Haggard, one of the academics, at a Washington presentation last month.


http://signalfire.org/?p=7784

[erupt]

I hate the Kims (Kim is in fact that family's dynastic name, no?). I hope the whole entourage is smashed, literally trampled by a mob of humans.

"We love you, workers of the world. Now, go shovel the blast furnace for ten hours without a shit break, and we might give your family a bowl of rice today."

[RED DAVE]

Analysts, however, have played down the prospect of a popular revolt against the regime similar to those in North Africa and the Middle East.

Pyongyang tightly controls access to the Internet, and also attempts to block other sources of information about the outside world.

However a survey by two US academics of some 1,600 refugees from the North found that roughly half of them have access to foreign news or entertainment — a sharp rise from the 1990s.

But they said the country lacks labour, religious or other groups around which opposition could coalesce.

“I don’t see anything in civil society that would lead to a kind of Egyptian phenomenon,” said Stephan Haggard, one of the academics, at a Washington presentation last month.Bourgeois social and political "science" in action. Some people never learn anyrthing. N. Korea couuld explode overnight.

RED DAVE

[gorillafuck]

This is interesting. What paper is this from?

[Nolan]

If you think RevLeft Brezhnevites had a cow over Libya, wait until the DPRK starts to collapse.

On the other hand, watch the west once again try to usurp people's grievances to its advantage.

[Nolan]

Analysts, however, have played down the prospect of a popular revolt against the regime similar to those in North Africa and the Middle East.

Pyongyang tightly controls access to the Internet, and also attempts to block other sources of information about the outside world.

However a survey by two US academics of some 1,600 refugees from the North found that roughly half of them have access to foreign news or entertainment — a sharp rise from the 1990s.

But they said the country lacks labour, religious or other groups around which opposition could coalesce.

“I don’t see anything in civil society that would lead to a kind of Egyptian phenomenon,” said Stephan Haggard, one of the academics, at a Washington presentation last month.


Huuurrrrr they don't have twitter revolt is impossible.

[Queercommie Girl]

Technically I must insist always that DPRK is a "deformed worker's state", because yes I am pedantic in this way.

But that doesn't mean empirically I would always support the regime though, I always tend to be more on the side of empiricism than dogmatism. If things really get out of hand, I might actually support what is technically (according to my own analysis of the DPRK state) a "counter-revolution".

[Dimmu]

The dictatorship should go.. Empty slogans are not so fun on empty stomachs..

[A Revolutionary Tool]

These protesters are obviously funded by the CIA imperialist dogs.

[scarletghoul]

Obviously as a communist and as a human being i support the protesters; its is wrong that energy is directed for a birthday party at the expense of the working class. We should be critical of this side of the DPRK. However, we should not go as far as to call for the overthrow of the regime because that would undoubtedly make things even worse for the Korean working class and put an end to the socialism theyve built up and maintained against all the odds


The dictatorship should go.. Empty slogans are not so fun on empty stomachs..
What do you suppose would happen if the DPRK fell ? Would an ideal socialist society emerge in its place, or would the ROK/US intervene and install a capitalist system ??

[Pretty Flaco]

But the great leader doesn't approve!

[Shokaract]

This is interesting. What paper is this from?

Chosun Ilbo is a major conservative newspaper.

I usually wouldn't link Wikipedia, but this article has good info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chojoongdong

[Queercommie Girl]

Obviously as a communist and as a human being i support the protesters; its is wrong that energy is directed for a birthday party at the expense of the working class. We should be critical of this side of the DPRK. However, we should not go as far as to call for the overthrow of the regime because that would undoubtedly make things even worse for the Korean working class and put an end to the socialism theyve built up and maintained against all the odds


Then the NK workers need a Cultural Revolution style mass democratic movement against the ruling bureaucracy, while keeping the state itself intact and defending it from external invaders.

The Maoists call this a continuous revolution under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Otherwise the "support" for the protesters is just paying lip service.

As one of the groups on RevLeft put it:

I defend the DPRK but oppose Kim and the Bureaucrats!

Establish a genuine Soviet system based on direct worker's democracy in the DPRK now!

[Omsk]

Then the NK workers need a Cultural Revolution style mass democratic movement against the ruling bureaucracy, while keeping the state itself intact and defending it from external invaders.

That would be very hard,considering the amount of propaganda and brainwashing the Kim regime did,i fear we would have a hard situation,considering that North Korea would be vulnerable to imperialist influence,especially in the time span between the revolution and he normalizing of the situation,and i guess South Korea would seek it's own influence and personal goals during such an event.

The people of DPRK are brave and hard-working,but their leaders make them look bad,which is massivly used by the US propaganda machine.Another enemy of the people of the DPRK is the propaganda of all imperialist countries,for instance,my grand-father went to North Korea,he was a socialist education buiro worker,and he went in alot of socialist and communist states,where he examined the education system and learning methodes of the socialist states,and i remeber him saying that the program was not perfect,but the system worked well,the kids were highly disciplined and enthusiastic.

The people need to understand that the mantality of the North Koreans is not deranged,they are all good hard working people.

[RED DAVE]

Then the NK workers need a Cultural Revolution style mass democratic movement against the ruling bureaucracy, while keeping the state itself intact and defending it from external invaders.pAfter all, the Cultural Revolution worked so well in China.


The Maoists call this a continuous revolution under the dictatorship of the proletariat.What they call it and what it was are two different things. I have a shih-tzu, and I am at liberty to call him a wolf.


Otherwise the "support" for the protesters is just paying lip service.

As one of the groups on RevLeft put it:

I defend the DPRK but oppose Kim and the Bureaucrats!

Establish a genuine Soviet system based on direct worker's democracy in the DPRK now!Right. But that has nothing to do with what any Maoist group has ever done, anywhere.

RED DAVE

[Queercommie Girl]

After all, the Cultural Revolution worked so well in China.


Empirically, the Cultural Revolution failed, but then so did the Soviet Union established by Lenin and Trotsky in 1917.

The Cultural Revolution was a genuine attempt at introducing mass democracy under a system of proletarian dictatorship in China, including the right to strike for all workers, and challenging the corrupt and authoritarian rule of the ruling bureaucracy in China.

Unfortunately it failed, but as an ancient Chinese saying goes: "Heroism is not primarily judged by success or failure". The Paris Commune once upon a time also failed, but it eventually led to the 1917 Revolution. The Cultural Revolution had many good ideas, they were just not implemented properly.



What they call it and what it was are two different things. I have a shih-tzu, and I am at liberty to call him a wolf.

Right. But that has nothing to do with what any Maoist group has ever done, anywhere.


If one does not believe in the principle of "workers are the leading class, peasants are the semi-leading class", and does not support mass democracy under the dictatorship of the proletariat, then one is not a genuine Maoist.

After all, even the CCP today is officially still a "Maoist" party.

[RED DAVE]

Empirically, the Cultural Revolution failed, but then so did the Soviet Union established by Lenin and Trotsky in 1917.We know why the Soviet Union failed: underdevelopled economic forces, civil war and betrayal by the party bureaucracy. This has been documented and understood.

If you want to hail the Cultural Revolution, you have to analyze the forces involved.


The Cultural Revolution was a genuine attempt at introducing mass democracy under a system of proletarian dictatorship in China, including the right to strike for all workers, and challenging the corrupt and authoritarian rule of the ruling bureaucracy in China.You have to document this. This is not apparent. It is just as easy to say that two factions within the bureacracy, neither of which was connected to the working class, had a conflict. Neither faction appealed to the working class. It was a falling out among thieves.


EUnfortunately it failed, but as an ancient Chinese saying goes: "Heroism is not primarily judged by success or failure". The Paris Commune once upon a time also failed, but it eventually led to the 1917 Revolution. The Cultural Revolution had many good ideas, they were just not implemented properly.At best, the Cultural Revolution was an attempt to liberalize an anti-working-class society, whether you call it a deformed workers state or state capitalism. You can't rwin a race with a dead horse.


EIf one does not believe in the principle of "workers are the leading class, peasants are the semi-leading class", and does not support mass democracy under the dictatorship of the proletariat, then one is not a genuine Maoist.The Maoists have never believed this, and they have never acted on it.


EAfter all, even the CCP today is officially still a "Maoist" party.And England still has a queen.

RED DAVE

[Princess Luna]

Obviously as a communist and as a human being i support the protesters; its is wrong that energy is directed for a birthday party at the expense of the working class. We should be critical of this side of the DPRK. However, we should not go as far as to call for the overthrow of the regime because that would undoubtedly make things even worse for the Korean working class and put an end to the socialism theyve built up and maintained against all the odds


What do you suppose would happen if the DPRK fell ? Would an ideal socialist society emerge in its place, or would the ROK/US intervene and install a capitalist system ??
Socialism they have built?? while the North Korean people were starving. "comrade" Kim was having fresh lobster air lifted to him. Even the U.S. is more Socialist then the DPRK.

[Queercommie Girl]

Even the U.S. is more Socialist then the DPRK.


Empirically that may be so in some ways, but you do realise that an US-backed regime in NK will never be able to give North Koreans the same kind of rights that American workers enjoy?

The US is a secular republican state, yet it supports the brutal right-wing theocratic absolute monarchy in Saudi Arabia.

[Red_Struggle]

North Korea is in a tight spot. They have been for years.

[Toppler]

God you Stalinist kiddies are delusional...

[Property Is Robbery]

What they need more than anything is to murder Kim and establish a worker's democracy. Also I don't believe they need a counter revolution to achieve this. Down with any dynastic turn overs of power!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Obviously as a communist and as a human being i support the protesters; its is wrong that energy is directed for a birthday party at the expense of the working class. We should be critical of this side of the DPRK. However, we should not go as far as to call for the overthrow of the regime because that would undoubtedly make things even worse for the Korean working class and put an end to the socialism theyve built up and maintained against all the odds


What do you suppose would happen if the DPRK fell ? Would an ideal socialist society emerge in its place, or would the ROK/US intervene and install a capitalist system ??

So if the people came out en masse to demand regime change, would you support them?

I find it shocking that some people are happy to defend the DPRK leadership not only against anti-imperialism, but against its working class. It is quite clear that the Kims, the military etc. are quite apart from the working class and live in a different world to most ordinary DPRK citizens. How can you support the emancipations of the working class from dictatorial, bourgeois rule in some nations but not others? It's shocking.

[manic expression]

according to Chosun Ilbo newspaper
:lol: Also known as the mouthpiece of the South Korean right-wing.


So if the people came out en masse to demand regime change, would you support them?
That's a fair question, but a complicated one. The devil is in the details, and what might look like "the people coming out en masse to demand regime change" could very well play out like Baku in 1990. IMO, the DPRK is literally at war with the most powerful imperialist force on the planet, and so in such a climate internal opposition to the DPRK is most likely anti-progressive, perhaps even fifth-columnist. That's as much as I can say about that hypothetical.

[Omsk]

The DPRK is in a very hard position,and i am afraid it is only a matter of time when their situation goes out of hand,there are quite a few possible end's to the situation- a change of the leading top,or a military conflict,because i dont think Kim junior will be any better than his father. And by the way,any new about the protest in DPRK?

[pranabjyoti]

The whole debate is based on information from a South Korean conservative newspaper article. I want to know how reliable they are? Those who are arguing on the basis of such "source" denounced Grover Furr and his work as being based on "party documents".
I just want to know how much dependable a south Korean newspaper is regarding NK. Probably not more than Fox I presume.
NK workers support this "dynastic regime" because they are the only hope for them before US imperialism. My "leftist(!)" comrades, kindly show them the way that how they can have a more socialist governance without being grabbed by US imperialism by displacing the "dynastic regime". Probably you are stupid enough to understand that US imperialism is more dangerous for NK workers than a "dynastic regime".

[Red Commissar]

What confuses me is that they're able to catch wind of these demonstrations when they claim they have so much trouble getting any other information from such a closed state. Methinks they're inventing much of the story.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The Korean People have a right to form their own government.

The DPRK is very vulnerable to intervention though. by circumstance, the ROK would occupy it with the US.

[gorillafuck]

This seems to be coming from what's basically the South Korean version of Fox News, folks.

[Geiseric]

Not every revolution leads to a U.S. Backed dictator. It's chauvinistic to the people in these 3rd world countries to assume that all their work is all for nothing. Even as far back in the early 1900s, the russian revolution made a non-imperialist backed government, because the revolutionaries are not so easy to destroy.

And, keep in mind that just because a news piece comes from a right wing
source, it could be true. For example, if bill o'riley says ''AIDS is bad.'' it isn't necessarily untrue since he sais it. I like to keep that in mind when I read things, insulting the source is ad hominem and doesn't have anything to do with their argument.
Btw, what socialism in NK?

[pranabjyoti]

Not every revolution leads to a U.S. Backed dictator. It's chauvinistic to the people in these 3rd world countries to assume that all their work is all for nothing. Even as far back in the early 1900s, the russian revolution made a non-imperialist backed government, because the revolutionaries are not so easy to destroy.

And, keep in mind that just because a news piece comes from a right wing
source, it could be true. For example, if bill o'riley says ''AIDS is bad.'' it isn't necessarily untrue since he sais it. I like to keep that in mind when I read things, insulting the source is ad hominem and doesn't have anything to do with their argument.
Btw, what socialism in NK?
When something come out from a right-wind media about DPRK, then it's credibility must be questioned. And I want to know, whether the imperialist sanctions aren't responsible to a very high degree for the points of demonstration, if it's true?
Do you (and others like you) think that any workers controlled Govt. can solve this issues despite imperialist sanctions? I have strong doubt that the sanctions will be harder in that case.

[Chambered Word]

If you think RevLeft Brezhnevites had a cow over Libya, wait until the DPRK starts to collapse.

brb popcorn

[chimx]

The Korean People have a right to form their own government.

The DPRK is very vulnerable to intervention though. by circumstance, the ROK would occupy it with the US.

If the DPRK collapsed you would see a slow integration of it into the ROK. Most important to Koreans is reunification of the peninsula.

I'm sure the United States and China would be involved with this process, but I doubt if there would be significant occupation by external forces. China has more or less acknowledged they wouldn't be opposed to a united peninsula under the ROK flag, and unless the ROK needed American assistance, I don't see why the US would need to help militarily.

[Jose Gracchus]

I must say, don't Trotskyists see at least some of the "left Maoist" turns of the Chinese "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" as progressive? Like the bottom-up pushes (ultimately failing) to replace party rule by Paris Commune-style governance, including the abortive Shanghai People's Commune?