A new map

[Tommy4ever]

Inspired by scarletghoul's attempt to create a visual representation of the worldwide socialist movement in map form I have created my own. It is not as pretty as his but I hope it avoids some of his ideological pitfalls, like calling North Korea 'liberated' and not recognising the existence of the Left in Europe.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b444/lettherulingclassestremble/map-world-outline-1.gif

Red marks the countries currently governed by members of the Latin American socialist movement.

Yellow marks countries governed by 'communist parties' - in practise all have abandoned socialism.

Purple marks countries currently undergoing extreme class struggle at the moment - for this I marked all the countries affected by the wave of Arab Revolution (I got this from a map on the internet - I was unaware of risings in Djibouti, Mauretania and Oman but put them in anyway) and Greece.

Orange marks areas in which communists or leftists are currently engaged in an armed struggle. For this I have marked India (Naxalites), Nepal (I know that they aren't fighting anymore but the Maoists are still armed and could at any time return to fighting), Colombia (FARC's leftist credentials are debateable but I put them in), Mexico (EZLN), Turkey (PKK), the Philippines and Peru.

Blue marks areas in which communist or far left parties are of major influence. In some areas (ie Russia) these parties are no longer communist in nature and in others (ie France and Portugal) they are splintered into several parties. But in all these areas the communists enjoy electoral support from over 10% of voters. I made South Africa blue - the South African CP fights alongside the ANC in elections and they usually win over 60% of the vote so its safe to say that the SACP deserves to be blue here.

Green marks areas with significant communist or far left parties. Essentially parties with 4-10% of the vote on a regular basis. I made Ireland green as the United Left alliance is expected to poll well in the coming election.

Turquoise marks countries in which the communists are a party of a ruling coalition - Ukraine, Srie Lanka, Uruguay and South Africa. Cyprus is also marked turquoise despite the fact that its' communist party is in fact the leading member of the ruling coalition and is the island's largest political party.

I'd be happy to edit the map in line with any suggestions. I think it gives a decent idea of the strength of the Left - especially in Europe.

[red cat]

Considerable amount of armed struggle is going on in Bangladesh too. It should be orange.

[Tommy4ever]

Considerable amount of armed struggle is going on in Bangladesh too. It should be orange.

Are the Naxalites active in Bangladesh too?

[mosfeld]

Turkey and Bhutan should be listed as orange as well.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/picture.php?albumid=487&pictureid=7247

TIKKO - TKP/ML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Turkey/Marxist–Leninist)'s armed wing, which is mainly active in the Black Sea Region and Kurdistan. There's also other Maoist parties with armed wings, such as MKP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoist_Communist_Party_(Turkey))'s HKO.

Interview with Bhutanese Maoist Leader (http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/interview-with-a-bhutanese-maoist-leader/)

[mosfeld]

Are the Naxalites active in Bangladesh too? No, but the PBSP (http://www.bannedthought.net/Bangladesh/index.htm) are.

[Omsk]

Not bad,keep updating it if you have enough time and energy.
And yes,Serbia should be green.

[Tommy4ever]

OK, I've edited the map in line with the suggestions.
Bhutan and Bangladesh are now marked orange due to the ongoing conflicts.
Azerbaijan is now light green as the communist party there is significant (it won just over 6% of the vote in the last election)
A new colour has been added:
Turquoise marks countries in which the communists are a party of a ruling coalition - Ukraine, Srie Lanka, Uruguay and South Africa. Cyprus is also marked turquoise despite the fact that its' communist party is in fact the leading member of the ruling coalition and is the island's largest political party
I'm sorry ComradeErich but I just couldn't bring myself to consider the Socialist Party of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Serbia) leftist. The Party of Milosovic does not deserve to be marked.
I also swithered about making Kazakhstan green as, like Serbia, the political ancestors of the CCCP still have 'green status' so to speak. Combining the electoral performance of Kazakhstan's Communist Party and a Soc Dem Party that evolved from the local CCCP Kazakhstan would have been green. However, since I didn't make Serbia green I decided to leave Kazakhstan blank as well.

[Rafiq]

Why is Cuba orange?

(Btw, as a member of the communist left, this is majorly flawed).

[scarletghoul]

Im surprised anyone thought making a map was a good idea lol. It looks cool, good job.

Thing is there is an extremely wide range in the levels of struggle in all countries. There are tiny armed struggles in some countries and hugely significant political struggles in others. As Mao said war is politics with bloodshed and vice versa, so thats why in my map (which i agree no one apart from me liked lol but thats not the point) i didnt differentiate between political and military struggles.

That notwithstanding, you might want to colour Greece orange due to the urban guerilla campaign. Also I think some of the various groups fighting the Burmese government are leftist too.

[Kiev Communard]

I'm sorry ComradeErich but I just couldn't bring myself to consider the Socialist Party of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Serbia) leftist. The Party of Milosovic does not deserve to be marked.


I would also advise you to make Ukraine blank. Our "Communist" Party has nothing to do with Communism or Marxism, even of Stalinist variety, whatsoever.

[Delenda Carthago]

lmao @ orange Turkey!:laugh:

Where is Devrim when you need him?

[mosfeld]

lmao @ orange Turkey!:laugh:

Where is Devrim when you need him?

Do you know what TIKKO or TKP/ML is?

[Sasha]

Do you know what TIKKO or TKP/ML is?

as the turkish joke goes:
Q:
what do you get when an revolutionary organisation gets 2 members?
A:
3 splits..


communist Party of Turkey/Marxist-Leninist re-organized between 1973 and 1978. The first party congress took place in 1978 (TKP/ML I. Kongresi in Turkish). In 1981 the second congress was organized (TKP/ML II. Kongresi). The party split following the second congress, the splinter taking up the name Bolshevik Party (North Kurdistan-Turkey) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshevik_Party_%28North_Kurdistan-Turkey%29). However it was nor the first neither the last split in the party. The Communist Party of Turkey/Marxist-Leninist - Hareketi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Turkey/Marxist-Leninist_-_Hareketi) had already split in (1976) during the re-organisation period. Other splits followed the second congress: Communist Party of Turkey/Marxist-Leninist - Revolutionary Proletarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communist_Party_of_Turkey/Marxist-Leninist_-_Revolutionary_Proletarian&action=edit&redlink=1) (1987), Communist Party of Turkey/Marxist-Leninist (Maoist Party Centre) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Turkey/Marxist-Leninist_%28Maoist_Party_Centre%29) (1987) and Maoist Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoist_Communist_Party_%28Turkey%29) (1994).




The organisation was originally formed in 1978 by Dursun Karataş (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dursun_Karata%C5%9F) as Revolutionary Left (Turkish: Devrimci Sol or Dev Sol), a splinter faction of Devrimci Yol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devrimci_Yol) ("Revolutionary Way", also known as Devrimci Yol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devrimci_Yol)), which splintered from the People's Liberation Party-Front of Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=People%27s_Liberation_Party-Front_of_Turkey&action=edit&redlink=1) (THKP-C), which in its turn was a splinter of Revolutionary Youth Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Revolutionary_Youth_Federation&action=edit&redlink=1) (commonly known in Turkish as Dev Genç).
A 1994 factional infighting within Dev Sol resulted in two factions: the main group led by Dursun Karatas[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] was renamed DHKP/C, while Bedri Yağan (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bedri_Ya%C4%9Fan&action=edit&redlink=1) created a new THKP-C (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=THKP-C_%28Ya%C4%9Fan%29&action=edit&redlink=1) (not to be confused with the original one).

[Delenda Carthago]

Do you know what TIKKO or TKP/ML is?
Yes I do.You know what Yuruyus is? You know what Grey Wolves is?You know what is the political condition in general in Turkey?I have the most respect for the comrades over there cause its really fuckin hard to be a revolutionary over there,because the situation is difficult in general.You have military Kemalists from one hand and islamofascists on the other.So dont tell me about TIKKO or PKK or whatever,please.

[Tifosi]

Leaving everything else aside, that map is rubbish. Why is New Guinea smaller than Baffin Island?

Looks like one of them US Cold War maps, making the Soviet Union look extra giant and scary, and squashing everything south of Sweden down.

Geography geek:p

[mosfeld]

Yes I do.You know what Yuruyus is? You know what Grey Wolves is?You know what is the political condition in general in Turkey?I have the most respect for the comrades over there cause its really fuckin hard to be a revolutionary over there,because the situation is difficult in general.You have military Kemalists from one hand and islamofascists on the other.So dont tell me about TIKKO or PKK or whatever,please.

TKP/ML are neither Kemalists or "Islamofascists". Ibrahim Kaypakkaya and the TKP/ML denounced Kemalism as fascism at a time when other "communists" viewed Kemal as a national hero. I have lots of respect for the comrades in Turkey as well. So could you please explain to me why you are flipping out when I asked you a very innocent question? :)

[Delenda Carthago]

TKP/ML are neither Kemalists or "Islamofascists". Ibrahim Kaypakkaya and the TKP/ML denounced Kemalism as fascism at a time when other "communists" viewed Kemal as a national hero. I have lots of respect for the comrades in Turkey as well. So could you please explain to me why you are flipping out when I asked you a very innocent question? :)
I m not flippin, I m far from flippin. I m just sayin that a revolution in Turkey is so freakin far away, I wouldnt even consider it.Turkey would need an Arab style revolution, askin for basic democratic rights.But that's kinda far away too.And this is why I have respect for the comrades over there.Not because of what they have accomplished, but more because I know how hard it is to even excist as a revolutionary over there.

Ps.I m know that Turkey is not as bad as Egypt.But if we could say that we have half ass democracy,they have a quorter or smth...

[mosfeld]

I m just sayin that a revolution in Turkey is so freakin far away,

Sure, I agree -- revolution isn't around the corner in Turkey. However, according to the OP: "Orange marks areas in which communists or leftists are currently engaged in an armed struggle." As I demonstrated above, armed wings of several Maoist parties are currently engaged in armed struggle in Turkey, most notably TIKKO. The petty-bourgeois nationalist PKK (considered leftist) is also active in Turkish Kurdistan and other areas in which Kurdistan is occupied. As such, Turkey gets to be orange. :)

http://media.istanbul.indymedia.org/uploads/2007/05/tikko2.jpg

[Blackscare]

(Btw, as a member of the communist left, this is majorly flawed).

Oh goody, we finally have a member of the communist left on this board. That'll round it out.

[Ismail]

I have a suggestion for turquoise: Mali.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malian_Party_of_Labour

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Here's another map. Workers are exploited in all the countries in dark gray.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1415/wikio.gif

[alegab]

You should make a difference between Brazil and the other "red" LatAm countries, they are clearly different, Lula has good relations w/ the US and he is not a Bolivarian and has a less aggresive style

[alegab]

all what I wrote about Lula also applies for Rousseff

[Luís Henrique]

You should make a difference between Brazil and the other "red" LatAm countries, they are clearly different, Lula has good relations w/ the US and he is not a Bolivarian and has a less aggresive style

Yeah, there is a lot of confusion. Whatever "Latin American Socialist Movement" is, if Brazil is part of it, then Venezuela is not, and conversely. Besides, Brazil should be turquoise - a Communist Party is part of government. And it probably should be the same colour as Argentina. And I am pretty sure that Argentina, Angola, Poland, and the United States should be of at least four different colours - they have very little in common that they do not share with countries of varied colours in the map.

Luís Henrique

[mosfeld]

The Brazilian regime is an imperialist backed, anti-working class, social-fascist regime which tortures and murders progressive peasant activists (and others) and takes a leading role in the occupation of Haiti. I suggest you remove Brazil since there is absolutely nothing socialist about the current regime :)

[Luís Henrique]

The Brazilian regime is an imperialist backed,

As opposed to?


anti-working class,Again, as opposed to? What regime in the world is pro-working class?

Perhaps Gaddafy?


social-fascist regimeWhat does this expression, "social-fascist", mean, beyond "it is not actually fascist, but it serves my pseudo-marxist cult to confuse it with fascism"?


which tortures and murders progressive peasant activists (and others)

... for instance?


I suggest you remove Brazil since there is absolutely nothing socialist about the current regime :)In which case, an one-colour map is fittest to describe the present situation. There isn't absolutely nothing socialist about any of the current regimes in any of the world's countries. Or to what dellusion do you affiliate yourself?

:) See, I can use emoticons, too.:ohmy:

Luís Henrique

[mosfeld]

Really nice attempt, but no. You're being a dick for no apparent reason and I can't figure out why. Are you holding grudges or something?


As opposed to?
As opposed to nothing. Im stating the fact that this current regime is fully backed by imperialists, and as such, cannot be considered socialist.


Again, as opposed to? What regime in the world is pro-working class?
There are no contemporary socialist states ("pro-working class"), and whoever thinks so is deluding themselves, I agree. This is a stupid strawman argument and I never said that there are any "pro-working class" regimes.


Perhaps Gaddafy?
Nice strawman :)


What does this expression, "social-fascist", mean, beyond "it is not actually fascist, but it serves my pseudo-marxist cult to confuse it with fascism"?
Socialist in name, fascist in deeds. I also don't really think a Trotskyite clown is in any way qualified to call anything a "pseudo-marxist cult"


In which case, an one-colour map is fittest to describe the present situation. There isn't absolutely nothing socialist about any of the current regimes in any of the world's countries. Or to what dellusion do you affiliate yourself?
I never said there were any socialist countries in the world. If anyone is deluding themselves, it's you, who's been using these absolutely ridiculous and pointless strawman arguments against me with no basis behind them. This map does not only include "socialist" governments, but also countries which are under armed struggle, so no, it should not be a one-color map according to the OP's criteria.


:) See, I can use emoticons, too.:ohmy:
You're a pretty cool guy :)

[Luís Henrique]

As opposed to nothing. Im stating the fact that this current regime is fully backed by imperialists, and as such, cannot be considered socialist.

There are no contemporary socialist states ("pro-working class"), and whoever thinks so is deluding themselves, I agree. This is a stupid strawman argument and I never said that there are any "pro-working class" regimes.

Ah, I see. There are no socialist countries in the world. But you want to erase just one of them, the others can well continue with their red colours? Why am smelling stalinshit here?


Socialist in name, fascist in deeds.

Yeah? What exactly are the fascist deeds? The war of aggression against Surinam, the rounding up of Brazilian Jews in the concentration camps of the Amazon, the suppression of all Unions, the suppression of Parliament, what else?


I also don't really think a Trotskyite clown is in any way qualified to call anything a "pseudo-marxist cult"

First, I am not a Trotskyist, and your evident inability to tell the difference between a fascist regime and a democratic one shows that you are utterly unqualified to discuss other people's qualifications.

Luís Henrique

[Roach]

... for instance?



I should REALLY not bother doing this Luís.
http://www.direitos.org.br/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5238&Itemid=1

Luiz Lopes Barros murdered on june 2009, but does this really matters to you ?

[Luís Henrique]

I should REALLY not bother doing this Luís.
http://www.direitos.org.br/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5238&Itemid=1

Luiz Lopes Barros murdered on june 2009, but does this really matters to you ?

Oh, so now we take "trotskyite clowns" in serious?

Luís Henrique

[mosfeld]

More:
Illegal arrest of LCP activists in northern Minas Gerais (http://www.bannedthought.net/Brazil/Cebraspo/IllegalArrests-NMG-100130.pdf)
Peasants Tortured and Murdered in Rondonia Brazil (http://www.bannedthought.net/Brazil/PeasantsTorturedMurderedInRondonia-091210.pdf)

[Roach]

Oh, so now we take "trotskyite clowns" in serious?

Luís Henrique


Why does this matter? I thought you were not a trotskyist?

[Luís Henrique]

Why does this matter? I thought you were not a trotskyist?

And I am not, and I didn't bring this into the discussion. So explain me, how is it OK to accuse someone of being a "trotskyite clown", while using a trotskyist source to make points?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I have absolutely no idea whether or not the Cuban regime ever used methods of torture or not. But since the topic is on torture and whether or not the Cuban regime ever tortured someone, I'd like to ask a question.

Do you believe that torture is some sort of act which stands above class analysis, something which is class neutral? If the bourgeoisie and its agents torture revolutionaries, we view it as reactionary, but, in a hypothetical situation, let's say that revolutionaries needed to attain information from counter-revolutionaries and bourgeois agents who absolutely and defiantly refused to talk. Would you reject the use of torture?

So Brazilian regime is fascist, because it "tortures political opponents", but you are not against torture in principle? I gather you don't oppose fascism in principle?

Luís Henrique

[Wanted Man]

Hmm I wonder when that massive communist movement in Germany popped up. Perhaps when I wasn't looking?


Here's another map. Workers are exploited in all the countries in dark gray.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1415/wikio.gif

What, you mean to suggest that there is socialism in Antarctica?

[Luís Henrique]

What, you mean to suggest that there is socialism in Antarctica?

Well, it certainly isn't capitalist.

Luís Henrique

[mosfeld]

So Brazilian regime is fascist, because it "tortures political opponents",

More strawman arguments. How about actually reading what I said?

"(...) social-fascist regime which tortures and murders progressive peasant activists (...)"

Where did I say "torture = fascism"? When debating, do you actually debate your opponent or just the strawman you create?


but you are not against torture in principle? I gather you don't oppose fascism in principle?

No, as my post you quoted indicates, torture is not a class neutral act. Im opposed to torture which does not benefit the proletariat in the class struggle.


And I am not, and I didn't bring this into the discussion. So explain me, how is it OK to accuse someone of being a "trotskyite clown", while using a trotskyist source to make points?

You were acting like a clown and I thought you were a Trotskyite, so there you go :)

[Roach]

And I am not, and I didn't bring this into the discussion. So explain me, how is it OK to accuse someone of being a "trotskyite clown", while using a trotskyist source to make points?

Luís Henrique

But it was I not mosfeld who ''used a trotskyist source'' and was mosfeld, not me, who called you a ''trotskyite clown''.

[Luís Henrique]

No, as my post you quoted indicates, torture is not a class neutral act. Im opposed to torture which does not benefit the proletariat in the class struggle.

Yeah. That's much what is to say. You think torture is acceptable.


You were acting like a clown and I thought you were a Trotskyite, so there you go :)
Well, I wouldn't call you a clown; I don't want to offend any actual clowns. At least I haven't seen any actual clowns defend torture.

Luís Henrique

[Omsk]

You should add serbia,the SPS is not entirely connected to Milosevic's policies,the SPS today is a modern left party that follows social-democracy.
You should add it,it has basicly nothing to do with Milosevic. (changed alot,especially after the 8-th meeting)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

What, you mean to suggest that there is socialism in Antarctica?

No. There are no workers in Antarctica to be exploited.

[Blackscare]

No. There are no workers in Antarctica to be exploited.

I guess elves don't count? :mad:

[mosfeld]

Yeah. That's much what is to say. You think torture is acceptable.


Well, I wouldn't call you a clown; I don't want to offend any actual clowns. At least I haven't seen any actual clowns defend torture.

Luís Henrique

Why are you unable to use class analysis? In a dire situation, are you against gaining information from agents and reactionaries through whatever means necessary? Bullshit liberal analysis like this, and anything put out of class perspective, applied in real life would be something like "the reactionary won't talk, but oh well.. We're against torture, nothing else we can do here...". You're a bourgeois democrat liberal, not a Marxist anyways, so I think it's pretty wrong of me to think for a second you'd actually think class analysis matters :)

[Luís Henrique]

Why are you unable to use class analysis?

Class analysis tells me that torture is a tool incompatible with the working class struggle.


In a dire situation, are you against gaining information from agents and reactionaries through whatever means necessary?

Not being stupid, I realise that "information" gathered through torture is basically unreliable.


Bullshit liberal analysis

Speaking of "bullshit analysis", what kind of "analysis" is this?


anything put out of class perspective,

This would be more impressive if you had a hint of what a "class perspective" is. As you seem to think that revolutionaries are merely reactionaries with a minus sign, your "class analysis" will always fail to grasp the actual differences between bourgeois politics and proletarian politics.


applied in real life would be something like "the reactionary won't talk, but oh well.. We're against torture, nothing else we can do here...".

What kind of "revolution" would allow itself to be put in such situation? What kind of information would we ever need that actually depends on the dubious confession of a counter-revolutionary?

Kid, I was in an underground movement. We had rules and principles on what to do under torture. There is nothing that can be achieved through torture against footsoldiers, because they know nothing relevant. There is nothing that can be achieved through torture against actual leaders, because they know what disinformation they can tell you, and how much time is needed before they can actually give you true information that is already old.

The only thing torture can achieve is not information, but demoralisation of individuals. This is why, and how, reactionaries use it. They don't care a minute for what you tell them (which is essentially made of two parts - what they already know, and what they cannot verify); they are interested in breaking you up, so that you will never again be a threat to their interests.

I see you have been paying too much attention to conservative idiots playing games about torturing terrorists to avoid an attack.


You're a bourgeois democrat liberal, not a Marxist anyways,

And you are a Stalinist, and as such, an enemy of proletarian revolution.


so I think it's pretty wrong of me to think for a second you'd actually think class analysis matters :)

There are many other much wronger things about how you think.

Luís Henrique