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View Full Version : The GDR,NVA,Berlin wall and general discussion.



Omsk
23rd February 2011, 12:40
I saw some threads about he GDR on the forum board,but most of them were either thread's regarding the wall or threads in which people expresed their thought on the GDR,these thought's were mostly negative,so i planned to open a thread about the GDR,the NVA and generaly about the life in these parts,and i would like to say that this is not a hate thread,devoted to trashing Erich Honecker,or the GDR,this is a thread that could bring back the nostalgia toward the GDR in some of the members who lived in it.And i repeat,if you dont want to post information and possible articles,pictures,about the GDR,or the NVA,dont,this could serve as a summ-up of all interesting content about the GDR,and i hope many people will find it interesting enough.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gifs/gdr.gif

*An article about the GDR,you might want to take a peak:

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/democracy-east-germany-and-the-berlin-wall/

http://www.eastgermany.info/

Feel free to post your own information and start a posible discussion about the GDR.

NVA part-
Nationalen Volksarmee

The Warsaw Pact, which included the Soviet Union and all its satellite states in Eastern Europe, was created on May 14, 1955, just days after the FRG joined NATO. Like NATO, its Western counterpart, the Warsaw Pact guaranteed mutual military assistance to its members in the event of an attack and coordination of all member forces in a unified command. The existence of this command, which was situated in Moscow, allowed the Soviet Union to station troops on its allies' territories. Each member state was also obligated to establish its own armed forces. In the GDR, the People's Police (Volkspolizei, or Vopo) had created paramilitary units in 1952. The Soviet Union had unofficially helped form East German naval and air force units beginning in 1950.
On March 1, 1956, the National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee--NVA) was officially created by transferring the existing paramilitary units of the People's Police to the NVA. The new army was officially under the leadership of the SED and under the direction of the newly created Ministry for National Defense. Initially, the NVA was to be staffed by volunteers only, but in 1962, when recruitment presented increasing difficulties for the SED and its support organizations, conscription was introduced. Before the construction of the Berlin Wall, conscription had been seen as impossible to enforce.
As early as the 1950s, the NVA became the most effective and best-equipped fighting force in the Warsaw Pact aside from the Soviet army. By the early 1980s, the NVA had an active strength of 167,000, of which approximately 60,000 were professional soldiers; there were approximately 3 million reservists. Most weapons were of Soviet origin.


The NVA was a professional volunteer army until 1962, when conscription was introduced. In 1987, at the peak of its power, the NVA numbered 175,300 troops. Approximately 50% of this number were career soldiers, while the others were short-term conscripts. The armed forces were controlled by the National Defense Council, but the mobile forces were under the Warsaw Pact Unified Command. Political control of the armed forces was through close integration with the SED (Communist Party), which vetted all the officers. Popular support for the military establishment was bolstered by military training provided by the school system and through the growing militarization of society. From a Leninist perspective, the NVA stood as a symbol of Soviet-East German solidarity and became the model Communist institution--ideological, hierarchical, and disciplined.The NVA synthesized Communist and Germanic symbolism, naming its officers' academy after Karl Marx's coauthor Friedrich Engels, and its highest medal after Prussian General Gerhard von Scharnhorst.

Fighting fist~
T-72 Main Battle Tank

Specifications

Crew: 3
Weight: 41,000 kg
Length: 9.24 m (including gun)
6.95 m (hull)
Width: 3.6 m (without skirts)
Height: 2.37 m
Max speed: 60 km/h (on road)
Max range: 480 km (on road)
Engine: V-12 diesel
(582 kW)
Power-to-weight ratio: 14.20 kW/tonne
Vertical obstacle climb: 0.915 m
Gradient: 60 %
Trench crossing: 2.90 m
Fording depth: 1.40 m
Main armament: 125-mm gun
Secondary armament: One 7.62-mm PKT machine-gun (mounted co-axially with the main armament)
One 12.7-mm machine-gun (mounted on the commander's cupola)

Small Arms:
Mauser Kar98k. In use by the Combat Groups of the Working Class and remained standard use until the 1960s and continued its service in limited circumstances
Mosin-Nagant. In use by the Combat Groups of the Working Class and remained standard use until the 1960s and continued its service in limited circumstances
SKS semi-automatic carbine
Makarov PM semi-automatic pistol
AKM Assault Rifle. Manufactured by the state arsenal as the MPi-KM (fixed stock, later variants were distinctive stippled plastic) and MPi-KMS-72 (AKMS) with a single strut "coathanger" side-folding stock.
AK-74 Assault Rifle MPi-AK-74N, MPi-AKS-74N, MPi-AKS-74NK variants made by the state arsenal for a short period of time starting in 1983 (withdrawn from service after German reunification)
RPD Light Machine Gun
RPK Light Machine Gun
PPSh 41 Submachine gun
PKM Medium Machine Gun
Dragunov SVD Semi-automatic sniper rifle
RPG-7D light AT-weapon
RPG-18 light AT-weapon

Armored Vehicles:
BMP-1
BMP-2 (tracked IFVs in first-line Panzergrenadier units)
BRDM-1
BRDM-2
BTR-40
BTR-50
BTR-60
BTR-70 (wheeled APCs in mechanized and motorized units)
BTR-152
PT-76
T-34 (only in modified recovery/engineering versions)
T-54 (reserve)
T-55 (upgraded to T-55AM standard)
T-72 (in first-line Panzer units)

T-55 tank

T-54-1 production was slow at first as only 3 vehicles were built in 1946 and 22 in 1947. 285 T-54-1 tanks were built in 1948 by Stalin Ural Tank Factory No. 183 (Uralvagonzavod), located in Nizhny Tagil. By that time it completely replaced T-44 in production at Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) in Nizhny Tagil, and Kharkov Diesel Factory No. 75 (KhPZ). Production was stopped because of a low level of production quality and frequent breakdowns. The T-54-2 entered production overall in 1949 (at Stalin Ural Tank Factory No. 183 (Uralvagonzavod) the production started in 1950 and until the end of the year it produced 423 tanks). It replaced the T-34 in production at the Omsk Factory No. 183 in 1950. In 1951 over 800 T-54-2 tanks were produced. The T-54-2 remained in production until 1952. The T-54A was produced between 1955 and 1957. The T-54B was produced between 1957 and April 1959. The T-55 was produced by Uralvagonzavod between 1958 and 1962. The T-55K command tank was produced from 1959. The TO-55 (Ob'yekt 482) flamethrower tank was produced until 1962.

Overall 35,000 T-54-1, T-54-2, T-54 (T-54-3), T-54A, T-54B, T-54AK1, T-54AK2, T-54BK1 and T-54BK2 tanks were produced between 1946 and 1958 and 27,500 T-55, T-55A, T-55K1, T-55K2, T-55K3, T-55AK1, T-55AK2 and T-55AK3 tanks were produced between 1955 and 1981.

Specifications

Crew: 4
Weight: 36,000 kg
Length: 9.00 m (including gun)
Width: 3.14 m
Height: 2.20 m
Max speed: 50 km/h (on road)
Max range: 500 km (on road)
Engine: One V12 Diesel
(580hp)
Fuel capacity: 960 litres
Trench crossing: 2.70 m
Main armament: 105mm or 100mm Cannon
Armour Protection: Hull 99 mm
Turret 203 mm
NBC protection: PAZ radiation detection system
Introduced: 1958
Ammunition (types): Frag-HE, HEAT, HVAP-T, AP-T, APDS, APC-T

Toppler
23rd February 2011, 12:54
Some articles about the DDR and the Eastern Bloc

http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-people-are-so-ostalgic-for.html
http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2009/11/seumas-milne-on-lessons-and.html
http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2009/11/eastern-takeover.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/east-germans-miss-t121761/index.html?t=121761

The overwhelmingly negative Western opinion is more based on bullshit rather than reality.

Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures
24th February 2011, 17:16
Hey look, a Soviet Bloc masturbation thread, who'd have thought this would appear in the History section.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
27th February 2011, 16:15
What is the point in this thread?

Do we actually gain anything from simple 'ostalgie'? No.

Omsk
27th February 2011, 16:34
Because you people obviously cant read...

And i repeat,if you dont want to present information and possible articles,pictures,about the GDR,or the NVA in your post's ,dont post at all.

What is the point in this thread?

What is the point of many threads about Stalin,the USSR,Lenin,etc etc?

Do we actually gain anything from simple 'ostalgie'? No.
Does everything here need a purpose?Or a reward?

Hey look, a Soviet Bloc masturbation thread, who'd have thought this would appear in the History section.
No need to be vulgar,if you dont like it/are not interested in it simply dont read it.

KC
27th February 2011, 17:38
Tankie nostalgia.

pranabjyoti
27th February 2011, 18:18
Because you people obviously cant read...


What is the point of many threads about Stalin,the USSR,Lenin,etc etc?

Does everything here need a purpose?Or a reward?

No need to be vulgar,if you dont like it/are not interested in it simply dont read it.
Don't get into argument with them or try to make them understand, it's just waste of time and energy. JUST IGNORE THEM, that's the best option I have found so far.

Red_Struggle
5th March 2011, 18:39
I'm going to repost what Ismail posted in another thread while back, as it provided me with some good info on the subject:

if someone mentions the Berlin Wall I just mention that East Germany:

Built it to prevent a "brain drain" and to seek an assertive geopolitical situation in regards to West Germany (which recognized the 1937 German borders and regarded the East as totally illegitimate at the time.) Many clandestine anti-revisionists within the GDR, and open ones in West Germany opposed the wall.
That the Soviets opposed it, and that it was a decision of the East Germans.
That the GDR had a system of so-called "consumer socialism" which sought to emulate the West in many respects, and that aside from the Stasi life in the GDR left many people feeling nostalgic about it today.
That the last execution was in 1981 (a Stasi head accused of treason), and that the GDR abolished the death penalty in 1987.
That the West basically promoted jumping the wall to arrive in Paradise.
That it was, in fact, possible to leave East Germany provided you had a reason and could wait a while.

Again, credit goes to Ismail. Thank him for this information, not me.

Omsk
5th March 2011, 18:57
The wall was there:
We no longer wanted to stand by passively and see how doctors, engineers, and skilled workers were induced by refined methods unworthy of the dignity of man to give up their secure existence in the GDR and work in West Germany or West Berlin. These and other manipulations cost the GDR annual losses amounting to 3.5 thousand million marks.

But we prevented something much more important with the wall - West Berlin’s becoming the starting point for a military conflict. The measures we introduced in 13 August in conjunction with the Warsaw Treaty states have cooled off a number of hotheads in Bonn and West Berlin. For the first time in German history the match which was to set fire to another war was extinguished before it had fulfilled its purpose.

“It (the protective wall of the GDR) served the cause of world peace since it halted the advance of the German neo-Hitlerites toward the East, forced the world to recognize the reality of the division of Germany and thus supports negotiation.” (retranslated from German)

If further evidence of the aggressive intentions of the West German government is needed it is provided by the authoritative West German employers’ newspaper, the Industriekurier, which regretfully wrote, exactly 19 days after 13 August 1961: “A reunification with the Bundeswehr marching victoriously through the Brandenburg Gate to the beating of drums - such a reunification will not take place in the foreseeable future.”

Bonn heads were really haunted by ideas of such a victorious entry. That would have meant war. It was the result of developments of many years standing in West Germany and West Berlin. Let us recall preceding events: In 1948 a separate currency reform was introduced in West Germany and West Berlin - the West German reactionaries thereby split Germany and even west Berlin in to two currency areas.

The West German separatist state was founded in 1949 - Bonn thereby turned the zonal border into a state frontier.

In 1954 West Germany was included in NATO - Bonn thereby converted the state frontier into the front-line between two pact systems.

The decision on the atomic armament of the West German Bundeswehr was made in 1958 - thus, Bonn continues to aggravate the situation in Germany and Berlin. Repeatedly the annexation of the GDR is proclaimed as the official aim of Bonn policy, most recently in a statement of the Adenauer Christian Democratic Union (CDU), on 11 July 1961.

Thus did the anti-national, aggressive NATO policy create the wall which today separates the two German states and also goes through the middle of Berlin. The Bonn government and the West Berlin Senate have systematically converted West Berlin into a centre of provocation from where 90 espionage organizations, the RIAS American broadcasting station in West Berlin (Radio in American Sector) and revanchist associations organize acts of sabotage against the GDR and the other socialist countries. Through our protective measures of 13 August 1961 we have only safeguarded and strengthened that frontier which was already drawn years ago and made into a dangerous front-line by the people in Bonn and West Berlin. How high and how strongly fortified a frontier must be, depends, as is common knowledge, on the kind of relations existing between the states of each side of the frontier.

Omsk
8th March 2011, 17:44
I read it,it's a good read,especially considering the fact that it brings up good critique and numerous interesting first hand expiriences.Glad it shows that the GDR was more than the 'Stasiland' the west propaganda represented it like.Glad you brought it up.

Red Future
8th March 2011, 22:14
I posted this in the Marxist Leninist group discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Groups_of_the_Working_Class

A.J.
11th March 2011, 14:05
I recently read that during the construction of the Anti-Fascist Protection Wall of the 8,000 Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse (sort of like a socialist version of the American National Guard) personnel deployed only eight members fled to the west.

Of course, the KdA mostly consisted of shop-floor industrial workers rather than the "intellectual workers"(doctors, scientists, teachers etc) who were fleeing to the west in droves in order to stick their snouts in the trough of imperialist super-profits.

So, in 1961, the GDR was still a dictatorship of the prolatariat in practice despite the revisionist SED having ceased to recognise the category as a key tenet of Marxism-Leninism.

Ben Barton
1st June 2011, 19:25
it's been over twenty years since the controversial and so called “unification” of Germany, it has been proven, but suppressed that large numbers of people, young and old, reject former West German criticism of the German Democratic Republic that as I am sure you have all been told was an evil place, rife with famine, starvation, travel restrictions and of course, that evil daemon, communism. What you do not take into account are the stories of the people who stayed after Stalin, as during his rule over a quarter of the population tried to escape his tight grip on the then “puppet state of the Soviet Union” but when he died and Khrushchev took power he initiated a scheme entitled De-Stalinisation.


This scheme placed much needed funds from Moscow into the upkeep of general welfare of the GDR’s people, diminishing any poverty that was previously apparent and lifting travel bans to the, in my opinion, fair restriction of any country that was or was regarded as socialist by Khrushchev’s government, this included any of the Soviet satellite countries, china and it’s allies and also the independent countries of Laos, Vietnam and Cuba. I understand that this does seem like a harsh restriction but remember, United States citizens were blocked from travelling to any socialist state at all, it is simply the same restriction but the other way round! On a side note, despite the cold war being over and the excuse of the so called “specter” of communism no longer haunting US domination, citizens of America are STILL unable to visit the socialist country of Cuba, only 90 miles from their boarder.

To try and bring things back on track I will tell you about a poll released on Oct. 1st 2007 in Berlin, the survey reveals that just over 57 percent of eastern Germans defend the overall record of the former East Germany. The general opinion was that the GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some economic problems, as expected from such a young socialist state, but quality of life was generally good. Germany today has been described by East Germans as “a dictatorship of capital” and “more of a dictatorship that the GDR ever was”.

The German opinion of the GDR has slowly declined due to the state propaganda in schools first used to indoctrinate west Berliners and later all of “unified” Germany, this has caused uproar by the citizens of the former GDR as their children, brothers, sisters and friends have been turned against their country because they were too young to remember the good deeds it had done them and their family. They simply listen to the western propaganda rather than the truth told by the former citizens and their family.

Now we have finished with that section let’s try to bust yet another myth sprouted from US and western propaganda. The GDR had a democratic electoral system criticised because the only five parties that ever got elected were all communist or socialistically based around the left side of the political spectrum. Does this not sound familiar? In the United Kingdom only three parties ever get any chance of election and all three of these are based around neo-liberalistic ideologies. In short, The German Democratic Republic if it had not been dissolved would be the equivalent of a communist Brittan, rich, prosperous and free of capitalisms grasp on the world.

I have not finished with my defense of the now Not-So-Bad country of East Germany; we have yet to cover the horrific Stasi! This was not anything like Stalin’s NKVD or Hitler’s Gestapo it was the equivalent of the American CIA or FBI and the Russian KGB or Spetsnaz. They spied yes, in West Berlin, they assassinated yes, in capitalist countries or spies in East Berlin. They were the exact same as any other secret service that is considered normal, any major power has them and unfortunately needs them. They were a normal, secretive civil service that because of their secrecy were made a monster out of by West Germany.

Apologies for rushed typing, spelling errors and grammatical errors.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
2nd June 2011, 14:00
I have not finished with my defense of the now Not-So-Bad country of East Germany; we have yet to cover the horrific Stasi! This was not anything like Stalin’s NKVD or Hitler’s Gestapo it was the equivalent of the American CIA or FBI and the Russian KGB or Spetsnaz. They spied yes, in West Berlin, they assassinated yes, in capitalist countries or spies in East Berlin. They were the exact same as any other secret service that is considered normal, any major power has them and unfortunately needs them. They were a normal, secretive civil service that because of their secrecy were made a monster out of by West Germany.

Apologies for rushed typing, spelling errors and grammatical errors.

Shameless revision of history right there.

We KNOW that the majority of East Germans had, and later read, the Stasi files kept on them. We know that a significant minority, far more than the CIA and FBI, of East Germans were recruited as informal informants.

To deny the denial of privacy and liberty that the Stasi were responsible for is really disingenuous to history.

I try to defend the GDR from an economic perspective, because it was a largely progressive society and deserves a lot of credit, in some respects. But sometimes, in relation to the wall (yes, I know there were genuine reasons for its erection, but it was still wrong) and the stasi, you just have to hold your hands up and say - look, they got it wrong, let's not defend it or explain it away in a vast revision of history, let's just examine it and avoid such a mistake in the future.