The truth about DPRK

[Toppler]

http://nottoomuch.com/pivot/entry.php?id=1828

I think this article perfectly sums up why DPRK is not a socialist state in any, even deformed, sense (it has even removed references to communism upon the collapse of the Eastern Bloc from its constitution), and why it is definitely not a even a "Stalinist" or "anti-revisionist state" (as many people, both capitalist and communist think), and why not even hardcore MLs should therefore support it.

[Dimentio]

In before "anti-imperialist solidarity" with "proletarian nations".

I think it was Mussolini who coined the term "proletarian nation" as well. And I would certainly prefer to live under Mussolini before living under Kim Jong-Il or el-Qadhafi.

[Demogorgon]

We are about to be hit by a string of posts claiming North Korea is a worker's democracy and others pointing out that it doesn't fit certain definitions of fascism. The former is delusional, the latter is a diversionary tactic. I don't particularly wish to comment on whether it is a fascist regime, it fits some definitions but not others, but sure as hell it is as bad as some of them.

Leaving that aside if you compare different Governments around the world on their policy preferences and how they target public spending, you can see that right and left have quite clearly distinguishable preferences (as you would expect). In virtually every respect North Korea is at the msot right wing end of the scale.

Quite why some people here try to convince themselves that isn't the case because it used to claim to be leftist I do not know. I understand opposing attempts to rile people up for war with North Korea, I totally oppose an attempt to attack it myself, that would be a surefire way to make things worse, but that isn't really on the cards right now and we should never show support for the country's government. Furthermore a popular uprising within the country to bring down that horrible regime would be the best thing that could possibly happen to the country.

[Toppler]

In before "anti-imperialist solidarity" with "proletarian nations".

I think it was Mussolini who coined the term "proletarian nation" as well. And I would certainly prefer to live under Mussolini before living under Kim Jong-Il or el-Qadhafi.

I don't think Kaddafi was worse than Mussolini, but when it comes to domestic conditions, even the worst fascist states [other than the NK] beat Kim's Korea by 100 miles.

By the way, I've created a group http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=682 for those who see the DPRK for the fascist state full of hunger and poverty that it is (as opposed to the "Hands off the DPRK!" group).

[Revolutionair]

Not if you were a red under Hitler. :(





But then again being a red under Kim is probably a hell too.

[Demogorgon]

There is a Wall Street Journal article linked to in the piece which is quite interesting, because it is surprisingly honest, the WSJ has a vested interest in calling North Korea Communist so to publish an article saying otherwise (admittedly by a freelancer rather than their editorial staff) is surprising. Nevertheless it makes an interesting point, that the North Korean Government never made much in the way of left wing claims to its own people but rather targeted them outwards to the Soviet Union and China in order to make it seem like they were on side. And the collapse of the Soviet Union did indeed coincide with them not bother anymore.

The North Korean Government does still make a small degree of lip service to socialism in statements made to the outside world, but not a great deal and mostly just repetitions of older claims. The claims of "Communism" are actually coming mostly from the Western media and what the WSJ article unsurprisingly doesn't point out is that this is a deliberate attempt to slander Communism and socialism itself, no different from the harder to get away with claim that "the Nazis were leftists". And leftist who actually buys into such a claim is, I am afraid to say, an idiot.

[Han Do Jin]

Having just spent a week in the DPRK, and feeling I understand it perhaps even less as a consequence of that experience, the only thought to which I repeatedly turn when reading these threads is: "would this conversation be possible in the DPRK?" The answer is of course a resounding 'NO'.

[erupt]

I know I ain't in the Learning section, but don't some Leftists consider it kind of like an industrialized, feudal form of government? If I'm wrong, please let me know; North Korea has always just blown me away, along with the people who say the Kim dynasty are "for the masses."

[Geiseric]

I have seen enough of these threads to know who and isn't sane on revleft, and who and who isn't a paranoid conspiracist.

[HEAD ICE]

In before "anti-imperialist solidarity" with "proletarian nations".

I think it was Mussolini who coined the term "proletarian nation" as well. And I would certainly prefer to live under Mussolini before living under Kim Jong-Il or el-Qadhafi.

It was actually fascist and Mussolini supporter Enrico Corradini. The precise quote is this:

We must start by recognizing the fact that there are proletarian nations as well as proletarian classes; that is to say, there are nations whose living conditions are subject...to the way of life of other nations, just as classes are. Once this is realized, nationalism must insist firmly on this truth: Italy is, materially and morally, a proletarian nation.

This line of (non-socialist, idealist and non-marxist) thinking pretty much defines a good portion of the beliefs of RevLeft posters.

[L.A.P.]

(as opposed to the "Hands off the DPRK!" group).

I truly get irritated when other Marxist-Leninists say that North Korea is a socialist state, it's almost as sad as trying to still claim China is a socialist state. I still am a member of the "Hands off the DPRK" group because I don't support imperialism.

[Chimurenga.]

I truly get irritated when other Marxist-Leninists say that North Korea is a socialist state,

You do know that the PSL views the DPRK as socialist and a workers state, right? Which is exactly what they are.

And for the record, shouldn't Toppler be restricted? This forum does still restrict reformists, correct?


And I would certainly prefer to live under Mussolini before living under Kim Jong-Il or el-Qadhafi.

I just find this astounding. Methinks you have some deep seeded fascist sympathies? It sure seems that way.

[Red_Struggle]

I'm a Marxist-Leninist and I don't see the DPRK as socialist, mainly because the Kim cult is ridiculous and their economy is definately state capitalist. The government grants enterprises credit based on the amount of profit they bring in and there is little to no worker participation in the workplace from what I've studied so far, meaning many remnants of the capitalist system are still visible in NK's economy.

[Queercommie Girl]

You do know that the PSL views the DPRK as socialist and a workers state, right? Which is exactly what they are.

And for the record, shouldn't Toppler be restricted? This forum does still restrict reformists, correct?

I just find this astounding. Methinks you have some deep seeded fascist sympathies? It sure seems that way.


Well I don't agree with your line on NK (though I do think they still have a planned economy at the base), nor with your idea that reformists should be completely banned just for that per se, but I think Toppler's ultra-demonisation of Mao Zedong has certainly gone overboard by far, and almost bordering on racism to the Chinese people (oh damn the Chinese and their "demonic barbarian" practices!), and frankly he should at least get a warning just for that. It's getting out of order.

Also, while I actually liked interacting with Dimentio to some extent, despite our differences, his fascination with Mussolini, a firm ally of the German Nazis who gassed 6 million Jews and the Japanese imperiaists who massacred 300,000 civilians in Nanjing, and his attempts to paint him as some kind of "not-really-fascist" and "semi-socialist" figure is indeed getting somewhat worrying.

[Mather]

You do know that the PSL views the DPRK as socialist and a workers state, right? Which is exactly what they are.

The PSL bases this assertion on what exactly?

[RedScare]

You do know that the PSL views the DPRK as socialist and a workers state, right? Which is exactly what they are.

Really? That is extremely disappointing. I was under the impression that the PSL line on the DPRK was support only in an anti-imperialist sense.

[Kassad]

Really? That is extremely disappointing. I was under the impression that the PSL line on the DPRK was support only in an anti-imperialist sense.

If you're looking for the PSL line on Korea, give this a read: http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6178&news_iv_ctrl=0

We realize that Korea has been under attack from imperialism for decades and despite this, it has made massive gains due to socialist construction. If you disagree with anything in the article, please state it. Debate is a good thing, but I think you'll learn to understand why we come to the conclusions we do in defending Korea.

[Zeus the Moose]

This is only tangentially relevant, but you can actually go to the DPRK now: http://www.pyongyangproject.org/

My school is offering a summer interim trip which will go to North Korea along with China and South Korea, but unfortunately I'm a senior this year and thus ineligible to go.

[gorillafuck]

There is a clear latching onto the US agenda in people that focus on DPRK as the worst state in the world. It's obviously not the most repressive or the most impoverished or the worst anything. That's simply a false claim of the United States. It is a type of oligarchy but it's not this outrageous place compared to most other states. I'd rather live in North Korea than any right wing country in Africa or Latin America, people get two meals a day in NK.

[Geiseric]

Well, lets think about it like this. Would you guys vote for Kim Jong Il if he was running for president/prime minister or the head executive authority of your country?

[StalinFanboy]

Also, while I actually liked interacting with Dimentio to some extent, despite our differences, his fascination with Mussolini, a firm ally of the German Nazis who gassed 6 million Jews and the Japanese imperiaists who massacred 300,000 civilians in Nanjing, and his attempts to paint him as some kind of "not-really-fascist" and "semi-socialist" figure is indeed getting somewhat worrying.

Don't know where you got this from...

[Chimurenga.]

If you're looking for the PSL line on Korea, give this a read: http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6178&news_iv_ctrl=0

Adding to this, I would include these as well;

http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/06-12-01-koreas-two-paths-revolution-or.html

http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/05-10-11-koreas-unfinished-struggle-nati.html

[Queercommie Girl]

Don't know where you got this from...

Read Dimentio's thread on "Mussolini and the March on Rome" in History.

Or are you saying it's wrong to label Mussolini as a hard fascist?

While NK is severely distorted, to say something like "NK is worse than Mussolini" just means one is not a genuine leftist.

Stalinism is still a lot better than Nazism, obviously. Even Trotskyists see that.

[Demogorgon]

Stalinism is still a lot better than Nazism, obviously.
True, but North Korea isn't Stalinist and Mussolini wasn't a Nazi.

It would hardly be a non leftist position to say you would rather live under Mussolini than Hitler (I certainly would, and I suspect the rest of us here would as well), so to say his regime was at least better than some others isn't necessarily problematic.

Don't get me wrong, there are a long list of unpleasant regimes I would still prefer to live under than fascist Italy, but whether North Korea belongs on that list is an open question.

[Queercommie Girl]

True, but North Korea isn't Stalinist and Mussolini wasn't a Nazi.

It would hardly be a non leftist position to say you would rather live under Mussolini than Hitler (I certainly would, and I suspect the rest of us here would as well), so to say his regime was at least better than some others isn't necessarily problematic.

Don't get me wrong, there are a long list of unpleasant regimes I would still prefer to live under than fascist Italy, but whether North Korea belongs on that list is an open question.

North Korea is basically a Stalinist system, though the political superstructure is even more distorted than orthodox Stalinism.

But NK has just as much planned economy at the base as Cuba does.

As for Mussolini, well you might say that because you are an European, but as a Chinese person, I know I would face severe racism in a country like Mussolini's Italy, so I would certainly prefer to live in North Korea, which despite all of its problems, still has a better public welfare system than China does at the moment.

Race does matter.

[Dimmu]

Its not a socialist state.. Just because it has some red stars on its flag does not mean a jack..

[Queercommie Girl]

Its not a socialist state.. Just because it has some red starts on its flag does not mean a jack..

NK has as much planned economy as any Stalinist system, only the political superstructure is even more distorted than orthodox Stalinism.

It has better public welfare than China at the moment, despite being much smaller and poorer.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think it was Mussolini who coined the term "proletarian nation" as well. And I would certainly prefer to live under Mussolini before living under Kim Jong-Il or el-Qadhafi.


Also, while I actually liked interacting with Dimentio to some extent, despite our differences, his fascination with Mussolini, a firm ally of the German Nazis who gassed 6 million Jews and the Japanese imperiaists who massacred 300,000 civilians in Nanjing, and his attempts to paint him as some kind of "not-really-fascist" and "semi-socialist" figure is indeed getting somewhat worrying.


Read Dimentio's thread on "Mussolini and the March on Rome" in History.

Or are you saying it's wrong to label Mussolini as a hard fascist?


True, but North Korea isn't Stalinist and Mussolini wasn't a Nazi.

It would hardly be a non leftist position to say you would rather live under Mussolini than Hitler (I certainly would, and I suspect the rest of us here would as well), so to say his regime was at least better than some others isn't necessarily problematic.

Don't get me wrong, there are a long list of unpleasant regimes I would still prefer to live under than fascist Italy, but whether North Korea belongs on that list is an open question.

I think Dimentio is referring to the fact that Communists like Bordiga were imprisoned for a short period of time, then Bordiga did engineering work. Under the NK regime, he would have simply been shot.

[pranabjyoti]

Well, lets think about it like this. Would you guys vote for Kim Jong Il if he was running for president/prime minister or the head executive authority of your country?
At least I will vote for Kim than the bustards we are facing in India. If he could implement planned economy on India, with its huge natural resources, warm weather and huge population, it would very quickly become a world superpower. At least, Kim would be much better than the feudal clan leaders and bustard capitalists, who just know to blame workers and forcing them to work on lesser pay by threatening them to close the factory and bustard political leaders, who know nothing but making scams with public money.

[pranabjyoti]

I think Dimentio is referring to the fact that Communists like Bordiga were imprisoned for a short period of time, then Bordiga did engineering work. Under the NK regime, he would have simply been shot.
Can you or anybody give any proper neutral document on how much people were shot everyday by the "state capitalist NK"?

[Zanthorus]

I think Dimentio is referring to the fact that Communists like Bordiga were imprisoned for a short period of time, then Bordiga did engineering work.

If I recall correctly Bordiga was under constant police superveillance for the entirety of the time Mussolini was in power and was only allowed outside of the house to do engineering work, so it was a bit worse than what you've just said. Nonetheless, it's probably preferrable to being shot. And in fact I believe Bordiga had offers to be smuggled out of the country but rejected them.

[Queercommie Girl]

At least I will vote for Kim than the bustards we are facing in India. If he could implement planned economy on India, with its huge natural resources, warm weather and huge population, it would very quickly become a world superpower. At least, Kim would be much better than the feudal clan leaders and bustard capitalists, who just know to blame workers and forcing them to work on lesser pay by threatening them to close the factory and bustard political leaders, who know nothing but making scams with public money.

The feudal clan leaders need to be shot en masse.

[pranabjyoti]

The feudal clan leaders need to be shot en masse.
Hey Comrade, that means "bloodbath" and will put us in the same row as capitalists. After all, we the "revolutionaries" can not do the same "atrocities" as the capitalists. WE MUST SHOW (HOWEVER DISASTROUS THAT ULTIMATELY WILL) THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT.

[Queercommie Girl]

Hey Comrade, that means "bloodbath" and will put us in the same row as capitalists. After all, we the "revolutionaries" can not do the same "atrocities" as the capitalists. WE MUST SHOW (HOWEVER DISASTROUS THAT ULTIMATELY WILL) THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT.

Lenience to one's enemies is equivalent to the betrayal of one's allies.

Do you think the feudal leaders would think like you here and show any hesitation in enacting the most brutal forms of White Terror against the peasant masses of India?

[Red_Struggle]

We realize that Korea has been under attack from imperialism for decades

Very true


and despite this, it has made massive gains due to socialist construction.

I'll agree up to the point where you say they embraced "socialist" construction. Judging from how their economy is run, it is in its state-capitalist stages and the poltical system basically scrapped Marxism-Leninism. As for Juche, there is nothing wrong with encouraging self-reliance, but the amount of nationalism the Kim family attatches to this philosophy is out of hand. And the Songon idea stressses that the Army is the revolutionary "class" and not the workers.

That being said, North Korea is not a hellhole, as most media outlets claim. They are definately more progressive than the south and for a while, their economy actually outmatched the ROK's. And from what I've seen, there are some places in the DPRK's countryside that look better than the countrysides in say, India.

[Queercommie Girl]

Mussolini wasn't a Nazi.


Mussolini may have been somewhat opportunistic ideologically and politically but he was also a very firm ally of German Nazism and Japanese Imperialism, as one of the three Axis Powers. Therefore he was at the very least a vile reactionary collaborator of brutal ultra-reactionary fascist regimes.

[pranabjyoti]

Lenience to one's enemies is equivalent to the betrayal of one's allies.

Do you think the feudal leaders would think like you here and show any hesitation in enacting the most brutal forms of White Terror against the peasant masses of India?
Problem with some people here, they are always searching for "bloodthirsty" regime and cry fouling along with imperialist propaganda. Those people are far away from reality, live in their imaginary world and are just obstacles in our road to future.
I myself, being born in a semi-feudal country know with my own life's experience that how much a "bloodbath" and "baptism by fire" is necessary for future progress. That's the debt we must pay to history for our own lethargy in progress.

[RedScare]

If you're looking for the PSL line on Korea, give this a read: http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6178&news_iv_ctrl=0

We realize that Korea has been under attack from imperialism for decades and despite this, it has made massive gains due to socialist construction. If you disagree with anything in the article, please state it. Debate is a good thing, but I think you'll learn to understand why we come to the conclusions we do in defending Korea.
The gist I get from these articles is essentially that the deformations of the DPRK are a result of the Korean War and foreign imperialism, as well as the dissappearence of the Eastern Bloc, is that correct? I can understand that, even if I don't fully agree with it.

The part really gets me about the PSL line on North Korea is that there doesn't seem to be much criticism at all. And with the Eastern Bloc in general. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the intellectual implication of such an uncritical position (I recently got your party pamphlet, but I haven't read it yet, so I may be missing something) is that the Soviet/Eastern Bloc/North Korean model (grouping together for the sake of simplicity) is something to be emulated. Yes, these countries get plenty of biased and crap criticism from the West, but they were no where near perfect examples of socialism(even if the context of foreign imperialism forced that condition upon them).

Essentially, I'd like to see PSL acknowledge the shortcomings of states like North Korea from a communist perspective. I don't mean to sound like a liberal here, but unqualified, uncritical support for North Korea, even with a good understanding of the historical context that created this situation, really does not sit well with me.

[durhamleft]

There is a clear latching onto the US agenda in people that focus on DPRK as the worst state in the world. It's obviously not the most repressive or the most impoverished or the worst anything. That's simply a false claim of the United States. It is a type of oligarchy but it's not this outrageous place compared to most other states. I'd rather live in North Korea than any right wing country in Africa or Latin America, people get two meals a day in NK.

Absolute rubbish.

There is not a solitary South American country and probably no African countries that are anywhere near as bad as dealing with human rights than North Korea. (Don't forget, this is a country that almost certainly has the worst press restrictions internationally, and treats dissent by execution (or in the lucky case of some military generals in the 1990s, being burned alive publicly), and furthermore gives citizens bollocks all choice regarding occupations, housing etc).

And its not even as if they get economic prosperity in return. You say they get 2 meals a day but thats utter garbage, there have been hundreds of thousands dead because of famine in North Korea, and it is one of the worlds poorest nations.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I love how people are so quick to cast aspertions on the state of the DPRK.

It appears to me that we can say, with a relative degree of confidence, the following:

North Korea is a country that has a militarist, nationalist ideology. North Korea invests a lot of resources in its military, and in the propaganda of Korean nationalism.

North Korea is a country that is in the grip of a cult of personality, a grave one at that.

North Korea is not a hellhole, relative to some of the more backwards countries in the world - Sudan, Eritrea, Haiti, Central African Republic and so on. When compared with first world countries, it appears awful. But it is a third world country. When compared with some other third world countries, it is clearly not the most awful place on the planet, in economic terms.

North Korea seems to provide a relative level of welfare to its citizens, in the form of education and healthcare, though this does not seem to match up to first world standards.

North Korea seems to be an extremely insular country that restricts movement in and out of its borders to an extreme level.

From the above, I would say that whilst some of the anti-NK propaganda is ridiculous - it's not a nightmareish hellhole, I don't presume - it is not a Socialist state. It is an enemy of the people.

I feel that my conclusions are well thought out and justified on this, and come in somewhere in the middle of the 'I love NK I want everywhere in the world to be like NK it is amazing' and 'NK is awful the thought police kill your babies if you have bad thoughts about Kim Jong Il in your sleep' types.

[Queercommie Girl]

There is not a solitary South American country and probably no African countries that are anywhere near as bad as dealing with human rights than North Korea.


I'm pretty sure some right-wing South American nations with an US-backed mafia-controlled system relying on death squads, like how Chile was like under Pinochet, or certain "Fourth World" African countries where tribes massacre and mass rape other tribes constantly are significantly worse than NK.

What is your view of Cuba by the way? Because objectively the economic base of NK and Cuba aren't significantly different, both are largely planned economies with a small private sector, both are impoverished and economically blocked by the West, both suffered significantly since the fall of the USSR. The only major difference is that NK's political superstructure is more distorted than orthodox Stalinism or Maoism, while Cuba's political superstructure is less distorted than orthodox Stalinism.

[Geiseric]

Castro also doesn't have a god complex, and his party fought the revolution for freedom in cuba, whereas the ruling party in North Korea were mostly a puppet regime set up by the U.S.S.R. If it was up to the North Korean people, I doubt Kim Il Sung would have been elected.

[durhamleft]

I'm pretty sure some right-wing South American nations with an US-backed mafia-controlled system relying on death squads, like how Chile was like under Pinochet, or certain "Fourth World" African countries where tribes massacre and mass rape other tribes constantly are significantly worse than NK.

What is your view of Cuba by the way? Because objectively the economic base of NK and Cuba aren't significantly different, both are largely planned economies with a small private sector, both are impoverished and economically blocked by the West, both suffered significantly since the fall of the USSR. The only major difference is that NK's political superstructure is more distorted than orthodox Stalinism or Maoism, while Cuba's political superstructure is less distorted than orthodox Stalinism.

Chile under Pinochet was worse, with was being the important word. I can't think of a state in South America that is currently as bad. And well, there are countries in Africa that are stained by horrific civil war and whathaveyou that make them more dangerous than NK, but in terms of actual state oppression I think NK takes the biscuit.

My view of Cuba is that it is economically fairly sound, though I don't support the nationalization of absolutely everything as took place in Cuba, its simply bad economics. And the absolute lack of democracy pisses me off greatly, however due to their considerably better human rights record than NK I can tolerate them, though extremely critically.

[Queercommie Girl]

And well, there are countries in Africa that are stained by horrific civil war and whathaveyou that make them more dangerous than NK, but in terms of actual state oppression I think NK takes the biscuit.


But genuine Marxists aren't just against state oppression. Non-statist forms of oppression such as tribal massacres are just as oppressive for the average civilian worker (who is not a superfit superhero or someone who is an expert in the use of an AK-47) as an oppressive state machine, if not more.

Marxism is not just against the state, but against every form of oppression on human beings: capitalism, feudalism, slavery, tribalism. The whole lot has to go. Just opposing Stalinism is a mistake.



My view of Cuba is that it is economically fairly sound,


Not really. Economically both NK and Cuba are in dire poverty, ever since the USSR fell and they lost their major trading partner. Cuba is somewhat better due to its people-driven economic schemes aimed at providing self-sufficiency. At least in Cuba there is enough food for everyone, but I wouldn't call the current Cuban economy "problem-free".



though I don't support the nationalization of absolutely everything as took place in Cuba, its simply bad economics.


Well, I don't think absolute nationalisation is necessary in a worker's state, but I certainly wouldn't call it "bad economics" either. It's a ridiculous bourgeois myth that private businesses (of any size) are more "efficient" than the public sector.

The problematic policies in Cuba now is not excessive nationalisation, but rather the opposite: 500,000 public sector workers have recently been laid off in Cuba, and must now become workers in the private sector.

Personally, I think your views here reflect a certain petit-bourgeois bias.



And the absolute lack of democracy pisses me off greatly,


Well, to be fair, the lack of democracy in Cuba is not absolute, there is more worker's democracy in Cuba than during any period of post-Lenin USSR.

But it is a fundamental problem in the political superstructure.



however due to their considerably better human rights record than NK I can tolerate them, though extremely critically.


Cuba is still basically a Stalinist state, though a relatively democratic and humane one. Radical reform is required in Cuba to establish direct worker's democracy.

[Queercommie Girl]

Chile under Pinochet was worse, with was being the important word. I can't think of a state in South America that is currently as bad. And well, there are countries in Africa that are stained by horrific civil war and whathaveyou that make them more dangerous than NK, but in terms of actual state oppression I think NK takes the biscuit.

My view of Cuba is that it is economically fairly sound, though I don't support the nationalization of absolutely everything as took place in Cuba, its simply bad economics. And the absolute lack of democracy pisses me off greatly, however due to their considerably better human rights record than NK I can tolerate them, though extremely critically.

I think you over-criticise the DPRK.

In many ways the DPRK is still less oppressive than China is today. Economic inequality is much lower in the DPRK, unlike China with its Ginni Index of 0.5. The "economic success" of China doesn't mean much for socialists when the income disparity is so high.

NK may face food shortages sometimes, but at least it doesn't have shit like this:

http://chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1310/

And NK doesn't roll over student protesters with tanks.

Despite being much smaller and poorer than China, the DPRK still has a better public welfare system than China does today.

So I must say, despite NK's severe problems, NK is still a better socialist system than the PRC is today.

My political line regarding the DPRK is:

Defend the DPRK but oppose Kim and the Bureaucrats!

[Chimurenga.]

If it was up to the North Korean people, I doubt Kim Il Sung would have been elected.

Nice to see that you have absolutely zero grasp of northern Korean history nor any indication of how popular Kim Il Sung was and still is.

This thread is embarrassing.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Iseul I agree with your analysis, but don't understand how you come to the conclusion that NK is a Socialist nation.

It is perhaps more equal than China and perhaps has a better welfare entitlement for ordinary workers, but that is not saying much. A Gini score of 0.5 is woeful for most advanced Capitalist nations, let alone a supposedly 'Socialist' nation (which China is not). To be more equal and more welfare-ist than China is not to imply Socialism, especially when said Welfareism is just that - a decent entitlement to basic educational, healthcare and welfare provisions handed down from the centre, controlled by bureaucrats and subservient towards an extreme cult of personality.

No economic democracy = no Socialism.

[Queercommie Girl]

Iseul I agree with your analysis, but don't understand how you come to the conclusion that NK is a Socialist nation.

It is perhaps more equal than China and perhaps has a better welfare entitlement for ordinary workers, but that is not saying much. A Gini score of 0.5 is woeful for most advanced Capitalist nations, let alone a supposedly 'Socialist' nation (which China is not). To be more equal and more welfare-ist than China is not to imply Socialism, especially when said Welfareism is just that - a decent entitlement to basic educational, healthcare and welfare provisions handed down from the centre, controlled by bureaucrats and subservient towards an extreme cult of personality.

No economic democracy = no Socialism.

I didn't say the DPRK is a "socialist" state, I said it is a "deformed worker's state". There is a difference.

Technically there has never been a "socialist" state ever. A "worker's state" is not the same as a "socialist state".

I don't support the bureaucracy that is ruling NK, but at the same time I would oppose an US-backed "revolution" to overthrow the entire state.

[Crimson Commissar]

Wow, it honestly amazes me how easily western "communists" will buy into this shitty propaganda. Capitalists always do this. They take a small issue within a socialist country, COMPLETELY blow it out of proportion, and constantly use that as "evidence" of how much of a failure socialism apparently is. We've seen this for the entire existance of the communist movement. North korea is not perfect, it never has been perfect, and no socialist country ever will be perfect. But even North Korean socialism is a hell of a lot better than this capitalist hellhole where everything is decided by the ruling class and by corporations. Just, fucking think about it. Do you honestly expect capitalists to tell the truth about North Korea? They NEVER tell the truth about communism. Besides, just because North Korea doesn't have fake capitalistic "democratic" elections, doesn't make it not socialist.

[Dimentio]

I don't think Kaddafi was worse than Mussolini, but when it comes to domestic conditions, even the worst fascist states [other than the NK] beat Kim's Korea by 100 miles.

By the way, I've created a group http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=682 for those who see the DPRK for the fascist state full of hunger and poverty that it is (as opposed to the "Hands off the DPRK!" group).

The worst criminal under the Mussolini regime of 1922-1943 was Badoglio, who gassed the Ethiopians. Mussolini's regime was never really "totalitarian" except for verbally, and very few Italians or members of ethnic minorities were murdered during the "Era Fascista".

That all of course changed with Salò, but then Mussolini did not any more have any control whatsoever over the events, and was more a symbolical leader, a fig leaf to try to hide the brutal reality of the German occupation.

[Demogorgon]

Wow, it honestly amazes me how easily western "communists" will buy into this shitty propaganda. Capitalists always do this. They take a small issue within a socialist country, COMPLETELY blow it out of proportion, and constantly use that as "evidence" of how much of a failure socialism apparently is. We've seen this for the entire existance of the communist movement. North korea is not perfect, it never has been perfect, and no socialist country ever will be perfect. But even North Korean socialism is a hell of a lot better than this capitalist hellhole where everything is decided by the ruling class and by corporations. Just, fucking think about it. Do you honestly expect capitalists to tell the truth about North Korea? They NEVER tell the truth about communism. Besides, just because North Korea doesn't have fake capitalistic "democratic" elections, doesn't make it not socialist.
If it is much better than it is commonly believed, why isn't the North Korean Government providing the information to prove this?

Has it not occurred to you that the lie the media tell is not that North Korea is a bad place but that it is not socialist? As the articles at the start of the thread make clear, its closest parallel is arguably 1930s Japan.

[Demogorgon]

The worst criminal under the Mussolini regime of 1922-1943 was Badoglio, who gassed the Ethiopians. Mussolini's regime was never really "totalitarian" except for verbally, and very few Italians or members of ethnic minorities were murdered during the "Era Fascista".

That all of course changed with Salò, but then Mussolini did not any more have any control whatsoever over the events, and was more a symbolical leader, a fig leaf to try to hide the brutal reality of the German occupation.
I think you are underestimating the degree of control the Italian Government had at its disposal. The source of power for Mussolini was not crude armed force (though that helped), but rather economic dominance. That is to say his party had the allegiance and support of big business and also controlled anything that might resemble a Labour Movement (meaning it could never oppose either the Government or business).

That is why in Southern Italy particularly so many MPs from the free market Liberals defected to the fascists in the early days. At first glance it wouldn't be a totally obvious switch because the fascists were happy enough to intervene economically, but in fact it was a perfect fit, the fascists were taking total control of the economy and allowing the big business the Liberals allied themselves with the full benefit of this.

Now you could well argue that it is a hell of a lot better to live like that than under Hitler for instance, but what the Italian Government at the time represented was one of the most complete entrenchments of economic privilege of the time. The proposed quid pro quos that were to be given to workers in exchange for this were either watered down or forgotten about and the South of Italy remained desperately poor.

Of course this is far removed from the North Korean question. The North Korean regime is quite different from Mussolini's and it it is fascist then the Kims are a very different kind than him.

[Toppler]

Seriously, people, why do so many of you MLs defend NK? Calling it Stalinism would be an insult to Stalinism, calling it "better off than most 3rd world nations" and "providing many good services to its citizens, although lower quality than the West" is a lie because it is the 18. most malnourished nation on the planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_suff ering_from_undernourishment , and its GDP per capita in PPP terms is lower than Russia's in 1895, meaning that even under the most just redistribution system possible the people would still be pitifully poor, and this is obviously not the case in NK as Kim eats lobster while his people live on the edge of starvation http://www.nkmissions.com/10part_report/Articles/Worst%20of%20the%20Worst%20Why%20North%20Korea%20i s%20No_%201.htm , its human rights violation are worse than any other nation on the planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_human_experimentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp http://www.google.sk/images?hl=sk&q=camp%2022&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1600&bih=775, it is probably the most fascist/racist nation in the world at the present time http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K61NR3-JZxcJ:www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/north_koreas_race_problem etc..

Compare the 1950s Moscow http://forum.xcitefun.net/1950s-moscow-beautiful-pictures-t50651.html to today's empty Pyongyang with barely any cars or people http://www.hottnez.com/pyongyang-a-city-high-on-boast-secrecy-and-desolation/ .

Need I fucking go on?

[Demogorgon]

It is all imperialist lies no doubt.

It becomes increasingly clear with these threads that many defenders of North Korea here regard a legitimate source as simply being one that gives a favourable impression of North Korea. They won't accept any evidence to the contrary because presenting such evidence renders the source worthless.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Seriously, people, why do so many of you MLs defend NK? Calling it Stalinism would be an insult to Stalinism, calling it "better off than most 3rd world nations" and "providing many good services to its citizens, although lower quality than the West" is a lie because it is the 18. most malnourished nation on the planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_suff ering_from_undernourishment , and its GDP per capita in PPP terms is lower than Russia's in 1895, meaning that even under the most just redistribution system possible the people would still be pitifully poor, and this is obviously not the case in NK as Kim eats lobster while his people live on the edge of starvation http://www.nkmissions.com/10part_report/Articles/Worst%20of%20the%20Worst%20Why%20North%20Korea%20i s%20No_%201.htm , its human rights violation are worse than any other nation on the planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_human_experimentation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp http://www.google.sk/images?hl=sk&q=camp%2022&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1600&bih=775, it is probably the most fascist/racist nation in the world at the present time http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K61NR3-JZxcJ:www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/north_koreas_race_problem etc..

Compare the 1950s Moscow http://forum.xcitefun.net/1950s-moscow-beautiful-pictures-t50651.html to today's empty Pyongyang with barely any cars or people http://www.hottnez.com/pyongyang-a-city-high-on-boast-secrecy-and-desolation/ .

Need I fucking go on?

The problem is that you've made a lot of bold and sometimes empty (lack of cars?) claims, and backed them up with questionable links, to Wikipedia and the like.

It really is difficult to say that NK has the worst human rights violations in the world, as we simply don't know, but it would appear that in fact, NK is not as bad in this respect as many places in the Middle east, Sub-Saharan Africa and other African places like Morocco, Djibouti and so on.

The most important view for me is whether North Korea is Socialist or not, and I conclude emphatically that it is not. So, to me, whether it is number 18 or 289 on the mal-nourishment scale, or whether it is number 1 or number 300 for human rights, is immaterial, as it is not a friend of mine, so i'm not gonna play the numbers or facts/statistics game out of defence of Korea or attack.

[Delenda Carthago]

If you people just invested half the time you spent in stupid debates on NK on the everyday struggle of your society, you might have actually see a difference around you.Just sayin...

[maskerade]

I'm pretty sure some right-wing South American nations with an US-backed mafia-controlled system relying on death squads, like how Chile was like under Pinochet, or certain "Fourth World" African countries where tribes massacre and mass rape other tribes constantly are significantly worse than NK.

first of all, 'tribe' is a western concept made to simplify African society and make colonialism easier - "we need to civilize the tribes". Africa is not a collection of 'tribes', you should know that it is much more complicated than that - or are Africans too stupid and uncivilized to have any form of societal organisation beyond simplistic tribes?

second of all, thanks for continuing the racist narrative of Africa as 'failed' where people go around mass raping and murdering. can you give me one example where this was done by a 'tribe', and not at the behest of some warlord or reactionary army of some sort? In fact, what African countries are you referring to?

you give out a lot of shit about china and accuse people of being racist, yet what you're saying here is just as racist.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

And NK doesn't roll over student protesters with tanks.

I'd hazzard a guess that NK students, or NK workers in general rarely mobilize for anything other than Kim-Dynasty sponsored events...

I can't believe people are trying to argue that NK is 'a bit more socialist than Cuba' and all of these other arguments. There is no socialism in NK, there is no socialism in Cuba. The means of production are not in the hands of the people who man them, the proletariat have no more of a general say in economic affairs than in most countries that NK defenders would consider bourgeois.

They are states with class distinctions; a ruling class and an oppressed class. I sympathize with Cuba's achievements with social security about as much as I sympathize with our own here in Britain, but it is not enough and it is not the 'socialism' that the left should be upholding. Its as simple as that. To defenders of NK or Cuba on the basis that they have some kind of socialist system, you are not socialists. Defending them on anti-imperialist lines is different, not that I necessarily agree on that either, but anyone who thinks that Cuba or NK are 'socialist states' has a distorted notion of what socialism is, or at least should be.

Also, 'degenerated worker's state' sounds more and more stupid each time I hear it. How far does a 'worker's state' have to 'degenerate' before its merely considered a bourgeois state? That's what they are. The oppressed classes in these nations would need to destroy the mechanics of these states in order to build socialism, it will never be done from above, by dear leaders, or great architects of communism or, brilliant geniuses of humanity.

And to the poster I initially quoted, you say that you support the DPRK but not Kim and the Bueracrats, how can you offer than support whilst asking for reform in NK? Surely that is a contradiction, unless you merely support the NK workers' bottom-up struggle against Kim's bourgeois? That statement seemed to suggest that you support the NK economic model, but not Kim and the beurocrats, but surely the economic order exists to, largely, preserve their status as a ruling class, using repressive measures against their population. How can you support the DPRK as a state whilst denouncing Kim Jong-Il and the class he represents?