Yay Capitalism

[bartski]

I'm glad I was invited to join here by a forum member! Now since I see a bunch of you hypocritical tree-hugging hippies are here in one place........

Capitalism is the worlds most adaptive and influential system in the world, in fact the reason your here typing on this forum is allowed by CAPITALISM! Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom. In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.


But then you say, Communism doesn't have leaders and everyone is taken care of? O no! But since Communism has never successfully worked, how do you know that Marxism is the correct Politically statement? USSR and China and most any other Communist country has still a rich oligarchary and a poor lower class which gets ruled by a secret police. So don't give me Communism is good because #1. IT NEVER WORKED #2. Nothing like real communism has been implemented.

Socialism is fine by me, but remember America is not a socialist country and never will be. So don't go preaching about uber leftist-systems that should be implemented that wouldn't go along with our countries profile......

[mEds]

Fuck you. dirty ****.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I would love to debate with you, lad, but I can't endorse the improper use of this forum. You need to go find the Oposing Ideologies forum. Welcome to che-lives, perhaps you'll stick around, we need some capitalists.

[chamo]

Capitalism is the worlds most adaptive and influential system in the world,

Capitalism merely adapts to the wants of a minority to posses more goods than others by exploiting their
welfare and labour to make and purchase goods. It is not capitalism that is influential, but it is the capitalists, that is the people who illegitimately own the means of production and can influence politics in this way, showing that capitalism and real democracy can never go hand in hand.


in fact the reason your here typing on this forum is allowed by CAPITALISM!

I have never seen any one try to find the answer to "why we are here" and attributing it to Capitalism.


Capitalism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms

Firstly there is no theoretical basis to this, it is just assumption procured to those whom are ignorant in the Western World by politicians and orthodoxy; Secondly, the personal freedoms of the world's largest class, the proletariat, as well as peasants and third world workers are heavily limited due to their indictment and forced loyalty to their employers and an enslaving system whereas they do not receive the full benefits of what they produce.


and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom.

How do trainers made in a third world sweatshop by an enslaved foreigner who most people in the West neither know of nor care of, which are sold for a profit 20 times that of what the worker is paid for the day's work help us advance with freedom? If anything it makes freedom a back wards process.


In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.

First, by whom? Second: why?


But then you say, Communism doesn't have leaders and everyone is taken care of?

True. Obviously you haven't studied Marxism/Communism/Socialism if you have to rely on a bunch of filthy pinko pukes to let you state that.


O no! But since Communism has never successfully worked, how do you know that Marxism is the correct Politically statement?

I assume you mean "correct political ideology". Marxism is a belief that Feudalism is progressed by Capitalism and then by Communism. It can not be proved "correct" by simply using hindsight. Conversely, how do you know that Capitalism is "correct", especially when it has show to be so flawed and unjust.


USSR and China and most any other Communist country has still a rich oligarchary and a poor lower class which gets ruled by a secret police.

Ah, the State Capitalist class system.


So don't give me Communism is good because #1. IT NEVER WORKED

How do you mean it never worked? If it still exists in your view.


#2. Nothing like real communism has been implemented.

You are simply stating the same thing twice, most amusing.


Socialism is fine by me, but remember America is not a socialist country and never will be.

Thanks to the US being so "democratic" it will never be Communist? Idiot.


So don't go preaching about uber leftist-systems that should be implemented that wouldn't go along with our countries profile......

Thanks to this wonderful freedom of speech lark I believe we are allowed to.

[Rastafari]

good post, man. Not that I agree with you, just that sentient Capitalist posts remind me of the good ol' days
Happy to see another capitalist here who seems like a pretty managable debator.
Hopefully we won't scare you off or you won't troll yourself off.

[suffianr]

Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom.

This is a common misconception; capitalism is not a precursor to either free markets, or democracy, at least not necessarily frrom an economic viewpoint. Capitalist economies employ a host of capital or market controls, like floating or pegging currencies, restricting competition or enacting protetionist trade laws. 'Free competition' in domestic or international markets is controlled and monitored by governments, and so even stock markets are influenced by political measures.

And IMHO 'country profiles' were known to have changed quite frequently throughout the course of history. Don't rule out a revolution just yet.

[synthesis]

Bartski:

By capitalism, do you mean 'private property' or 'the free market'? For the two are mutually exclusive.

Did capitalist economists really expect people to believe that the doctrine of competition could co-exist with the very real possibility of monopoly?

Oh, Bartski: What are your thoughts on immigration, namely the cheap labor that accompanies it?

[Sabocat]

Nothing like real communism has been implemented.

So I'm assuming here that if a true Marxist communism existed, you'd be in favor of it?

[Ctisphonics]

Ummm, I'm not a Capitalist, I just support it in light that nothing else seems to work nearly as well. And secondly, you can't Label the US a a single system country, we have several diffrent splices working together. The Capitalist are oftentime the Prey or the Oppressed, ask Bill Gates! If we were true Capitalist, would Monopolies be outlawed?

Consumer trumps Capitalist usually. We try to keep a progressive balance- why we're on top technology/infrastructure wise. Occasionally a Socialist like Pres. Bush will take the side of a certain industy for the worker votes for a party, which break the Consumerism > Capitalism rule (as with the steel industry), but that's how our Republic was design, parties need votes to stay in power, so have to kiss people's butts.

[EneME]

hypocritical tree-hugging hippies
Most leftist aren't doped up hippies but Professors and Students who have studied FACTS and STATS on whats actually HAPPENED on account of eyewitnesses and such.....we didn't all just wake up and decide "oh i wanna be a hippy/liberal"...we actually use our brain, not just watch CNN/FOX news and allow ourselves to be brainwashed

Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms
Whose freedom are you talking about? I know you aren't talking about immigrant workers who work for less than minimum wage for your fruits and veggies so the rich make more profit.....or the poor/peasant ppl who drink polluted water in all of Latin America on account of US Corporations where in a village in Mexico their babies are born without brains b/c of it....or maybe its the freedom the US is bombing on Iraqui/Afghan children and families...these ppl don't become leftist they are PUSHED into it and their children (the future) see it with their own two eyes.

In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.
I think you've confused what Communism is...Communism is to live as a COMMUNITY...an oppressive Dictatorship is what you mean. There are plenty of oppressed populations in this world that the US helps to oppress in the name of "democracy"...they provide dictatorships with the means ($, guns, training) to oppress/murder ppl...Communism hasn't murdered as many as the amount of deaths "Capitalism" has supported/created....might as well be the ones pulling the trigger

So don't give me Communism is good because #1. IT NEVER WORKED #2. Nothing like real communism has been implemented.
#1 and 2 are the same...but it has never been allowed to be implemented thanks to the USA..."why does the US hate Communism?" is a question you SHOULD ask...because big corporations can't make money off of it. It is a threat to capitalism, so they use any means necessary to irradicate it...be it murder/bomb/decieve even if 90% of the people WANTS to overthrow a "democratic" oppressive dictatorship...USA will not allow it..

Socialism is fine by me, but remember America is not a socialist country and never will be. So don't go preaching about uber leftist-systems that should be implemented that wouldn't go along with our countries profile......
Uh....Socialism is closer to being Communism than to Capitalism. Cuba's a socialist nation....and by the way we can preach our "uber" leftist beliefs 'cause of this "freedom" we have, right? and you're right...it doesn't go with our profile, because US then wouldn't be the super-power-police-of-the-world-stronger-than-all-nations-combined...it comes at a price! The enslavement and exploitation of the poorest who don't wan't McDonalds, internet porn, and SUV's...they just want enough to survive and to live in peace....I dont think thats too much to ask for and damnit call me a Leftist if you want but you will never know heartbreak until you look into an older peasants eyes who've lived such atrocities that'll scar them for life...If I can help them and support them...I will just to make one day of peace for them...

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:39 PM
I'm glad I was invited to join here by a forum member! Now since I see a bunch of you hypocritical tree-hugging hippies are here in one place........

Capitalism is the worlds most adaptive and influential system in the world, in fact the reason your here typing on this forum is allowed by CAPITALISM! Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom. In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.


But then you say, Communism doesn't have leaders and everyone is taken care of? O no! But since Communism has never successfully worked, how do you know that Marxism is the correct Politically statement? USSR and China and most any other Communist country has still a rich oligarchary and a poor lower class which gets ruled by a secret police. So don't give me Communism is good because #1. IT NEVER WORKED #2. Nothing like real communism has been implemented.

Socialism is fine by me, but remember America is not a socialist country and never will be. So don't go preaching about uber leftist-systems that should be implemented that wouldn't go along with our countries profile......
everyones entitled to their opinions

[IHP]

It seems that bartski hasn't come back to defend his stance.

[EneME]

Yeah he's entitled to his opinion of course....but I thought this was a discussion form? sharing idea's and all...hm..
BTW...sorry my response was so freaking long lol MAH BAD

[RyeN]

Bartski you poor misguided mind. Your definatley confusing capitolism with technologie. Capitolism is sick coruption of power to market thier products to you. Your brainwashed if you belive capitolism has succeeded our present lives. Cancer is one of the most non-disgriminat killers of our time. Its could be coming for you, but your capitolist societey has prevented a cure. In our societey Cancer research is a multi-billion dollar corperation. Finding a simple cure could cause millions there jobs.

There are herbal medicines that use the mixture of protien strands and different minerals. One of the most successful was a mixture used by Native Canadians and Americans to cure Flu, Fever, and other such diseases. Further researched in Sweden with the mono protien strand and silver found great healing properties. After reasearch found how effective the product was American Capitolism bought the research and ended testing. There are hudreds of products on the market to cure hedaches, cold's, and the flu, that dont work. Yet people still pay hard earned money for them. What good for the economy would that be if one remedy fixed all these problems and more. Research into Silver-Monoprotien could have saved you pig.

Socialism is inevitable in America and the ultimate step towards communism.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 08:39 PM
Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom. In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.



Vise versa? Tell that To Lumumba.

[Fabi]

i wont bother to read this whole thread either, too many idiots - to the original crappie who started this - you fucking **** owe much more to socialist/anarchist movements than to capitalism.. w/o those movements you little fuck would n3v3r h4v3 even been 4bl3 to att3nd a sch00l, idi07.



i hope iv3 m4d3 it easy enough for you to ignore this post, btw, by us1ng 4ll th15 retard3d 1337 taalk.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P :P :

[captainjustice]

It's nice to see people like you on here. A forum should be set up just for debate. You could get other capitalists on here (hopefully intelligent ones, like you seem to be) and we all could have debates. It would be fun!

[Xvall]

I'm glad I was invited to join here by a forum member! Now since I see a bunch of you hypocritical tree-hugging hippies are here in one place........

We love you too! :)


Capitalism is the worlds most adaptive and influential system in the world, in fact the reason your here typing on this forum is allowed by CAPITALISM!

Diseases are very adaptable and influential; it doesn't necessarily mean that they are good things! It may be true that the reason we are typing on this forum is due to capitalism, but I can also claim that the only reason you are alive to day is because of socialism. After all, the USSR played a very important role in defeating Nazi Germany during the second World War. Not to mention very significant socialist figures in the world such as Albert Einstein.


Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom.

That's kind of funny, most people who lived under Diem, Pinochet, Batista, and Hitler didn't seem to think so. As a matter of fact, they didn't get any freedoms whatsoever.


In fact if it was vice versa in the world and you guys actually got America to be communist, I would probably be hunted down and killed.

I wouldn't, but that is just me. I'm sure there are a few socialists, however, that might actually want to do that to you.



But then you say, Communism doesn't have leaders and everyone is taken care of? O no! But since Communism has never successfully worked, how do you know that Marxism is the correct Politically statement? USSR and China and most any other Communist country has still a rich oligarchary and a poor lower class which gets ruled by a secret police.

Even the most authoritarian of communists and socialists refuse to acknowledge China and the USSR as communist countries. The entire notion of a 'communist country' is absurd. Communism is the final stage of Marxism, in which the state has dissolved. It has never even existed.


So don't give me Communism is good because #1. IT NEVER WORKED #2. Nothing like real communism has been implemented.

Congratulations! You've just contradicted yourself! If it has never been implemented how can you judge whether or not it has 'worked'. That's like me stating that the cure for Aids had too many side effects.


Socialism is fine by me, but remember America is not a socialist country and never will be. So don't go preaching about uber leftist-systems that should be implemented that wouldn't go along with our countries profile.

America is a mass of two continents. Of course the United States isn't a socialist country. The only people who think that the United States is a socialist country are 'free-market anarchists' who believe that homeless people should be left to die. I don’t' think that America will become a socialist country anytime soon, and I never claimed that it would be. We have the right to preach whatever system we desire, just as you do as well.

[Oblivion4.37]

originally posted by chamo
Capitalism merely adapts to the wants of a minority to posses more goods than others by exploiting their
welfare and labour to make and purchase goods. It is not capitalism that is influential, but it is the capitalists, that is the people who illegitimately own the means of production and can influence politics in this way, showing that capitalism and real democracy can never go hand in hand.

The Soviets could only hope for such a powerful rhetoric propaganda machine in the West... Capitalism adapts to the movement of wealth as it happens. If everybody lived next to a purewater spring, water sale would be non-existant in capitalism. It is of course not the notion of capitalism that is influential, it's the wealth it dictates how should be distributed. On principle, capitalism is not a system built to serve an elite few. It's just that the nature of free-roaming material wealth in the hands of human beings dictates that someone owns and controls it at some point. It took over 400 years for such a thing to happen in America. The thing is, eventually, through inheritance (an overtaxed thing in my opinion, an individual's last will should not involve the public unless so stated) and alliances on the business (not corporate, the term corporate didn't exist until the 19th century) levels. In Capitalism, all elements in the same business not in cooperation are in competition. However, by logical order of implication, without illogical presence of intervention (like the notion of the 'right' to not get shot, the notion that all business should remain small requires some overbearing power, to some extent treading on someone else's rights) someone wins the competition, and earns the bragging rights and all prestige to stand over their defeated enemies. It's only just to dethrone such ascended power if that power was not gained purely by outdoing the competition in a particular business. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, Rothschild, Vanderilt and Gates should all have had their empires disassembled on the grounds that they used business-compromising tactics to deliberately eliminate their competition. At least Rockefeller could say that he continued to improve his trust-produced monopolistic control over oil through improvement of the product itself. After all, people were still experienced in living no where near oil lamps and whatnot, so if it came down to it, they'd live without his Kerosene. Before anyone mentions Ford, I hate him for the simple fact that he was an avid anti-semite and member of the Nazi Party. He even distributed propaganda (The Protocols of the Elders of Zion) for them. Lee Harvey Oswald was less a Marxist-Leninist than Ford a Fascist. That's capitalism under the control of evil or ambitious men (calling Milton Hershey evil is kinda difficult, in light of the fact that he was a better man than most in his day, and most of modern times) with no restriction. I prefer that sort of system, where the possibility is open.


I have never seen any one try to find the answer to "why we are here" and attributing it to Capitalism.

He's saying that a system originating from Capitalist ethics exists here, and that is precisely why you have the privelidge to be here to debate this thing. Free Speech in the literal sense of the word is a right, on a private board, it's a privelidge.


Firstly there is no theoretical basis to this, it is just assumption procured to those whom are ignorant in the Western World by politicians and orthodoxy; Secondly, the personal freedoms of the world's largest class, the proletariat, as well as peasants and third world workers are heavily limited due to their indictment and forced loyalty to their employers and an enslaving system whereas they do not receive the full benefits of what they produce.

You procure something for something, not to it, you rhetoric machine! Orthodoxy, in what sense? Religious? I shall think not, for even the strongest of Orthodox religions, Protestant Christianity, has been on the decline for most of the last century and all of this. As of 1996, it was declining 1 percent per year. Soon it will be a minority religion. As for your second diatribe, most people incapable of willing themselves, and acting upon such will, to acquire better living through thrift, deserve not our respect anyways, as they lack the motivational concern to become powerful, wanting only the crumbs and scraps at the tables of powerful men. If men weren't creatures asking to be lead, the human race would not incline itself to institutions which destroyed individuality. You know, not every job on the planet (and in developed nations, very few are) is in production? Mostly automated now, most people work jobs where nothing is produced. If I work as a burger flipper at McDonalds (which I do at this time, to keep a roof over my head) why in the hell should I get a portion of every burger I flip? I already entered into the contract knowing what the pay would be, knowing what hours I'd work. The entitlement is that money. Rather than run on a primitive barter system, money subsidizes the value of work. I get my $5 dollars an hour, and that's it. Also, the third world is completely fucked up. Somalia, for example. There's prison slave labor in this country. That's NOT capitalism, that's corruption, and it happened in Socialism. It ate it out from the inside. Stalin's elite kept enough food in their private (yes, private) pantries to feed an entire tenament block. Socialism presents the same problems, elitist, incomprehensibly distant government with no intent to benefit its citizens (despite the empirical reality that government is at best an active institution to benefit society, at worst the action of a few evil men to consolidate the value of effort of the many) except in Socialism, those realities directly confront the ideologies.


How do trainers made in a third world sweatshop by an enslaved foreigner who most people in the West neither know of nor care of, which are sold for a profit 20 times that of what the worker is paid for the day's work help us advance with freedom? If anything it makes freedom a back wards process.

To assume that no one knows is ignorant. People know, people just don't give a rat's ass. Since when were they obligated to anyways? If no one helps you beyond absolute obligation, you should not be forced to help anyone else in a similar manner, and since crooked clothing companies using child labor in far off lands *Cough* Kathy Lee Gifford and Nike *Cough* doesn't affect most people here in the US (who are busy enough trying to get their lives together, and mean something) directly, and they haven't bought the products, thus not benefitting from criminal activity (abusing Children is a big thing I'd like to stop, but it feels better if you do it with the criminal's money)


First, by whom? Second: why?

First, Stasi, KGB, doesn't matter what you call them, it's all the same. Once an unstable, internally known to be radical ideology gains power, it has a tendancy to eliminate dissenters. It's called consolidation of power.

Second, in relation to the first, to consolidate power, as Hitler and Stalin would both tell you, when people start disappearing and getting shot for disagreeing, others who might consider dissidence start shutting up real fast.


True. Obviously you haven't studied Marxism/Communism/Socialism if you have to rely on a bunch of filthy pinko pukes to let you state that.

Who are these 'filty pinko pukes' you refer to?


I assume you mean "correct political ideology". Marxism is a belief that Feudalism is progressed by Capitalism and then by Communism. It can not be proved "correct" by simply using hindsight. Conversely, how do you know that Capitalism is "correct", especially when it has show to be so flawed and unjust.

Yes, well, Marxist ideology contructs skew certain facts, like the fact that the foundations for capitalism originated well behind and away from the feudal class, and that the system was not, in its origins (outside of Marx's paranoid theories ((I am not dismissing the theory, just saying he was paranoid, as many who try to take in the grand scope of history tend to be, such as myself)) which are in question here) an intentional focus to bring power to the elite. Capitalism, like Marxism, is nothing more than an observation. Two middle class fellas coming to different conclusions. Marx believed in a conspiracy, Smith believed it happened on its own. How is it shown corrupt? What we could morally impose as criminality has in fact occured, but how is our flawed, human logic allowed to dictate what flaws a system such as capitalism or communism has? We have a 'ceiling' of understanding, built by old morality, which prevents us from rising above the ultimate limitations and gaining truly genuine understanding.


Ah, the State Capitalist class system.

That's a funny way of saying applied communism...


How do you mean it never worked? If it still exists in your view.

It didn't work, as in, upon implementation, human nature prevented it from working.


Thanks to the US being so "democratic" it will never be Communist? Idiot.

First, don't dismissively insult someone. Your honchos might be behind you here, but if you were at a board for capitalists (wouldn't matter which board, though you might enjoy the rather benign and free-form discussion at more centrist boards, as I do, and their liesurly, middle of the road characteristics are quite enjoyable) you wouldn't be so aggressively dismissive of one of their locals, that is, if you possess the common courtesy to not insult someone in their own house.

Second, while certain objectivities of socialism are democratic, the theory is anti-libertarian, and is sort of a 'pod-people' thing. If we lock everyone up in cryo-suspension pods and have machines run everything, everyone has enough, they are secured by reliable mechanisms, and their fate is sealed. Also, they're all equal.


Thanks to this wonderful freedom of speech lark I believe we are allowed to.

Yes, personally, I don't believe people are 'allowed' or 'beneficiary' to some kind of holy or great thing when they exercise their right to freedom of speech. It's a right. You don't ask for it. No one can justly take it away. It's yours. Once someone screws with it, you've been wronged.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 04:28 AM

Captialism is tied hand in hand with personal freedoms and if used correctly can make great products of our society that lets us advance with freedom.

This is a common misconception; capitalism is not a precursor to either free markets, or democracy, at least not necessarily frrom an economic viewpoint. Capitalist economies employ a host of capital or market controls, like floating or pegging currencies, restricting competition or enacting protetionist trade laws. 'Free competition' in domestic or international markets is controlled and monitored by governments, and so even stock markets are influenced by political measures.

And IMHO 'country profiles' were known to have changed quite frequently throughout the course of history. Don't rule out a revolution just yet.
This post is right on. It is interesting to see another cappitalist without any decent grounding in Smith, if you did you would realise the things above make your system as much of a faailure, both politically, and economically as the ones you oppse.

DyerMaker, there are actually two other books of Smith, that I don't think were ever widely published, explaining how there should not be monopolies, or large multi-nationals. This was from a politics student a few years older than me, I am currently trying to get hold of them so I can make a detailed criticism but I will protec t Smith on that point. It is the globalising money hungry bastards that have messed that up as well. So really all Smith is, in effect taken out of context. Nice screwed ideology. It isn't your fault new guy, but you are following half a story.

[Le Libérer]

And Capatalismn works? HAHAHAHA! If I were you, I would start embracing something else. With China rearming, and Americans blindly following Bush, you will have quite the surprise Bar B Que in your back yard when the rest of the world comes and gets theirs.