prospects of revolution

[ComradeAV]

I believe that I may be getting ahead of myself, but seeing that labor protests are spreading here in the US, what are the prospects of this going national and starting a genuine working class revolution? Do you believe that these movements are baby steps towards one? Also do you think that the AFL-CIO will ruin these protests by agreeing to conscessions or do you believe the people will see past the AFL-CIO?
__________________

[HalPhilipWalker]

It is highly unlikely that this will directly lead to a revolution. Most likely, the Republicans will get their way (at least in the short term). This could lead to ballot initiatives in which hopefully the intense level of activism will continue. The best case I see out of this is possibly more organizational and grassroots support for some of the groups on the left who will throw themselves into this fight. In that sense, you could consider this to be a baby step to a broader movement. As for the AFL-CIO, I think they will actually fight this one tooth-and-nail. Without the right to collectively bargain, they will start to lose a lot of the power that they still retain.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No, revolution, but Wisco IMO is US labor's Tunisia. It's a turning point and win or loose, the most significant labor struggle in decades. It is the end of US labor in the neoliberal era and the first page of a new chapter in US labor history. The same way that Tunisia probably won't end up causing a second proletarian revolution there, but it could be the spark that eventually causes a return of a radical left with real mass-roots (as well as having already caused further uprisings and revolutions throughout the region)

It won't be smooth sailing for US labor because of Wisconsin; like overthrowing Mubarak, it's just the opening to a whole different kind of struggle. It shows that workers are not passive, it shows that protests matter, it shows that the tea-party do not represent most people, it shows that youth are decisively truing to the left during this economic crisis, it shows that labor can stand up and the rank and file is willing to do "illegal actions". It also is showing people that the budget cuts are really class war from above and you don't have to accept it.

Just like with the civil rights movement where people had been trying to resist Jim-Crow for decades and then there seemed to be a "new mood" of militancy that meant that the 1950s civil rights movement did not retreat in the face of repression like earlier protests, this shows that it will not be easy for the ruling class to beat us back even further.

The AFL-CIO is preparing for a possible general strike. But the unions have also said they will agree to concessions as long as collective bargaining remains (which is like going into a gunfight and saying you don't need the bullets as long as you have the gun). Also the fact that it is a Republican Governor and the Democrat's knee-jerk run and hide reaction actually made them seem progressive for once make the issue more murky. I think the protests will embolden rank and file workers everywhere, make some unorganized people actually look to forming unions, but the real test will be if there are fights against the union bureaucracy in places where they are quick to collaborate and if people can actually make similar fights when it is the Democrats in power pushing austerity and class warfare.

On the bright side, even progressives seem to hate Obama now and his budget is awful. Even Huffington Post and DailKos and shit like that are debating the nature of the Democrats and if they can ever actually deliver on the ideals they win votes off of. So I think there is a chance that if a new labor movement develops, a left-wing could make a strong argument for an independant party - especially if Egypt forms a labor party. He may have to start swinging back to the liberalism (sorry, actually just swing back to moderate, not really that liberal even) but I think he didn't believe there would be push back from regular people and so he isn't as good of a liberal defender of the system as FDR was. If he was as smart as FDR, if rank and file action and anger continue, he'd fire his staff and blame them for clouding his administration with harmful neoliberal ideas. I think it'll take a couple of general strikes for that to happen though.

My new slogan is: Egyptians overthrew a one-party dictatorship - can we overthrow a two-party dictatorship?

I also think that we will see a return of an anti-war movement, but that's fodder for a different post.:)

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think that talk of any serious upheaval in the USA is a tad premature, but the question about the AFL-CIO (or similar major unions) sabotaging strife is a very real problem, and needs to be addressed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I believe that I may be getting ahead of myself, but seeing that labor protests are spreading here in the US, what are the prospects of this going national and starting a genuine working class revolution? Do you believe that these movements are baby steps towards one? Also do you think that the AFL-CIO will ruin these protests by agreeing to conscessions or do you believe the people will see past the AFL-CIO?
__________________

To make my long manic post more succinct and direct: I don't think this will lead to revolution directly, but I think it could lead to a revival of working class fightback which could lead to the development of a generation of labor fighters (or vanguard) and reintroduce radical working class politics to US society in a way it hasn't been since WWII.

We could see an America that looks more like the 1870s than the 1980s and 1990s (i.e. the building of radical and reformist socialist parties, labor wars, rising class consciousness etc).

[RedSonRising]

Where the fuck is the left when this kind of thing goes down.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Where the fuck is the left when this kind of thing goes down.What do you mean?

[KC]

Where the fuck is the left when this kind of thing goes down.

There is not a left capable of handling these developments, unfortunately.

[RedSonRising]

What do you mean?


Perhaps it's my lack of intimate knowledge with the situation and I'm being cynical in my ignorance, but there are an array of leftist parties and organizations that don't seem to be cooperating and taking advantage of the situation. Historically, organizations like the IWW and such had a lot of weight and ideological support in labor-intense areas of activism in the United States. Today with with the economy in the state that it is and the lines of class struggle being clearly defined, I don't see an effort to reach out to the masses and capitalize on the discontent. Mass media is an obstacle; numbers are an obstacle; sectarianism is an obstacle; but there are forms of relief for the struggling, and effective methods of alternative information dissemination/guerrilla marketing to be utilized. Meaningful attempts at these would allow working class mobilization to manifest into something independently political, lasting, and class-oriented.

Basically I'm just wondering why I have yet to see anyone take significant strides in advancing the ideas of socialism amidst modern labor repression and protest in recent years.

Again, it might be cynical ignorance or undue criticism on my part as I'm not that connected with "the scene" in terms of hotbed working class activism, but political emphases on proletarian empowerment should be at the forefront of labor unrest put forth by leftist parties and organizations- at least enough so that the average news viewer can be aware of their existence.

[MarxistMan]

READ THIS REVIEW OF THE BOOK "DISCOVERING AMERICA AS IT IS" BY VALDAS ANELAUSKA, A LITHUANIAN WHO MOVED TO USA AND JUDGED THE AMERICAN OLIGARCHIC-CAPITALISM AS EXTREMELY VIOLENT AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN PEOPLE

http://www.amazon.com/Discovering-America-As-Valdas-Anelauskas/dp/0932863299/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Anelauskas does the American people a huge favor in writing this book. Had it been written by someone born in the U.S., the author would have been denounced as a subversive communist traitor and invited to move to Russia. But Anelauskas was born in Lithuania and grew up under Soviet imperialism. He knows the system well. Until coming to the U.S., he had few kind words for it, which earned him repeated arrest and, ultimately, exile to the U.S., where he took up with the likes of Newt Gingrinch and Phil Gramm. Being an intelligent and educated person, it did not take him long to see through the lies of the American right. In retrospect, he now sees there were some positive qualities to the USSR. The irony is not lost on him, and it is somewhat discomforting to me--having no love lost for the Soviet model--as he says some things were better, and certainly more humane, in the USSR than in the U.S. Yet, it is hard to argue he is not correct.

Discovering America As It Is systematically exposes the lies of the American right, Republicans AND Democrats alike. Some of Anelauskas' most scathing comments are reserved for Republican in Democrat drag, Bill Clinton, whom Anelauskas clearly demonstrates waged an even more merciless and devastating war against the least affluent 40% of the American population than did Reagan. Anyone who thinks a (Daddy George) Bush or Dole presidency would have been more harmful to the poor, or who thinks, somehow, Al Gore would be the "lesser of the evils" will have to reexamine their logic after reading Discovering America.
Anelauskas' work is meticulously documented from a myriad of sources--academic scholarship, poll data, census data, think tanks, studies by agencies of international organizations such as the United Nations, non-governmental organizaitons, government data from the U.S. and other nations, particularly other capitalist nations. The sheer volume of information, of sources, and the consistency of the data, truly, is astounding. During the recent presidential election, George Dubya raised the spectre of "class warfare" in response to (another Republican in Democrat drag) Al Gore's so-called "populist" nomination acceptance speech. The data Anelauskas presents makes it crystal clear there is a long running class war in the U.S.--a war of the most affluent 10% of the population against the other 90%. And the 10% are winning!, primarily because they control all of the major institutions of soceity; in partiuclar the political institutions, schools, media and churches.

Anyone who reads this book should recognize Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm, Milton Friedman, and David Horowitz for the lying charlatans they are. Anyone who reads this book should realize the Democrat party is as much the party of the propertied class as the Republican party. And anyone who thinks the there is any worthiness to capitalism as an economic system, or who believes the propertied class is not waging unremitting class war against eveyone else should consider the words, not of Karl Marx, but of Abraham Lincoln: "These capitalists act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people."

If I were to fault Anelauskas, it would be for implying America's "ultra-capitalism" is some perverse, grotesquely mutated version of an otherwise viable economic ideology. One need only read the originators of capitalist ideology--Malthus, Ricardo, Adam Smith--to see they fully understood what they were creating. They knew capitalism would be a tremendously productive economic system; but, as they followed the logic of the economic principles they were developing and articulating, they also realized it was a system which eventually reduces virtually the entire population of capitalist societies to starvation while all the wealth becomes vested in the hands of an ever shrinking elite. As they themselves predicted, capitalism is an economic system which ultimately destroys itself and takes everyone with it. It, quite literally, is the Titanic of economic systems; and its advocates preach it is unsinkable. Because the version of capitalism practiced in most European nations is not as pure, not as true to the principles of capitalist ideology as in the U.S., the inherently destructive consequences of the ideology are not as pronounced and as profound as in the U.S. The European nations may be "behind" us, but what is happening here will happen to them; it is inherent in the logic of capitalist ideology.

That fault notwithstanding, the book is superb. Only the blindest of readers will not be profoundly affected and disturbed.



I believe that I may be getting ahead of myself, but seeing that labor protests are spreading here in the US, what are the prospects of this going national and starting a genuine working class revolution? Do you believe that these movements are baby steps towards one? Also do you think that the AFL-CIO will ruin these protests by agreeing to conscessions or do you believe the people will see past the AFL-CIO?
__________________

[MarxistMan]

you have to realize that most people in USA are very anti-socials, an individualists, and there is lots of family-narcissism and group-narcissism, and the country is very divided. Divided into languages, into cultures, another thing is that people in most neighborhoods don't talk to each other. This is a nation of loners which will make it almost impossible to create a united front against the 5% oligarchic ruling elites

.


I believe that I may be getting ahead of myself, but seeing that labor protests are spreading here in the US, what are the prospects of this going national and starting a genuine working class revolution? Do you believe that these movements are baby steps towards one? Also do you think that the AFL-CIO will ruin these protests by agreeing to conscessions or do you believe the people will see past the AFL-CIO?
__________________

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Where the fuck is the left when this kind of thing goes down.

The IWW is one of the groups calling the general strike:
http://www.iww.org/en/node/5349

So is Socialist Alternative:
http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article14.php?id=1527

the PSL already has some 11 articles on it at this point, and I have seen pictures of their banner at the Madison rotunda:
http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/pages/wisconsin-labor-fights-back.html

[Tommy4ever]

There is zero chance of a revolution in America at this time. That is exceedingly unlikely to change in any of our lifetimes.

[Jose Gracchus]

A lifetime is a long time. Consider the difference between 1917 Russia, and 1847 Russia, 70 years earlier. Actually, I think the U.S. is overdue for an epoch of re-radicalization.

[MarxistMan]

DEAR FRIENDS !! It is time for a scientific plan, and for action in USA. Because for revolutionary change to take place in the United States, three conditions need to be in place:


1- The broad masses of people - workers, the oppressed nationalities and others who are held down by the monopoly capitalists - need to arrive at the conclusion that they are unable to live in the old way, and need to be willing to fight to bring the old order to an end.

2- The ruling class needs to be in real crisis, where it is divided against itself and unable to continue with business as usual.

3- And, finally, there needs to be a strong revolutionary organization, a new Socialist Workers Party that is capable of navigating complex political situations and that can lead the fight to establish working class political power.

In the U.S. today, none of these conditions exist. In my view, it is the central task of revolutionaries to create a new workers party - a political party that is serious about revolution in this country.

Such a party cannot be proclaimed or declared into being. It will be the product of bringing together or fusing Marxism with the workers movement. In a practical sense this means that a substantial section of the activists, organizers, and leaders need to take up the science of revolution, Marxism-Leninism, in order to build a workers party, that is in fact the advanced and organized detachment of the multi-national working class. This process will be the result of an organized effort, and it cannot come about spontaneously.

Building a new revolutionary party is a long-term project that requires perseverance and determination. It is not something that can be done in isolation from the people's struggle and movements. The party building work should be placed in the context of our three objectives: To win all that can be won while weakening our enemies; Raise the general level of consciousness, struggle, and organization in our immediate battles; and Win the advanced to Marxism-Leninism, thus building revolutionary organization.

The tasks of revolutionaries in relationship to building revolutionary organization change based on the development of the objective situation. Right now there are very few Marxists in the U.S. While the job of uniting them is an important one, this is not key to party building. Finding new socialists in the course of the struggle is the thing to do.

It is possible that an upsurge of the national movements will lead to the creation of Marxist organizations based among a specific nationality, as happened in the late 60's and early 70's. If this takes place again, it would mean prioritizing the principled unity of leftist organizations. Likewise if polarization in society due to the decline of U.S imperialism, or radicalization of a section of one or more social movements creates a layer of activists who are revolutionary minded, this in turn will affect the content of party building efforts.

Expanding the scale and scope of revolutionary organization with the long term goal of building a new socialist workers party is closely linked with the construction of a united front against monopoly capitalism. The organizational capacity and political understanding a Marxist party provides is the vehicle for working class leadership, and the scaffolding for the united front against monopoly capitalism.




.



I believe that I may be getting ahead of myself, but seeing that labor protests are spreading here in the US, what are the prospects of this going national and starting a genuine working class revolution? Do you believe that these movements are baby steps towards one? Also do you think that the AFL-CIO will ruin these protests by agreeing to conscessions or do you believe the people will see past the AFL-CIO?
__________________

[Delenda Carthago]

I think that talk of any serious upheaval in the USA is a tad premature, but the question about the AFL-CIO (or similar major unions) sabotaging strife is a very real problem, and needs to be addressed.
its so funny how some people havent gone outside of their house and they dream of revolutions already!!:lol:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Perhaps it's my lack of intimate knowledge with the situation and I'm being cynical in my ignorance, but there are an array of leftist parties and organizations that don't seem to be cooperating and taking advantage of the situation. Historically, organizations like the IWW and such had a lot of weight and ideological support in labor-intense areas of activism in the United States. Today with with the economy in the state that it is and the lines of class struggle being clearly defined, I don't see an effort to reach out to the masses and capitalize on the discontent. Mass media is an obstacle; numbers are an obstacle; sectarianism is an obstacle; but there are forms of relief for the struggling, and effective methods of alternative information dissemination/guerrilla marketing to be utilized. Meaningful attempts at these would allow working class mobilization to manifest into something independently political, lasting, and class-oriented.

Basically I'm just wondering why I have yet to see anyone take significant strides in advancing the ideas of socialism amidst modern labor repression and protest in recent years.

Again, it might be cynical ignorance or undue criticism on my part as I'm not that connected with "the scene" in terms of hotbed working class activism, but political emphases on proletarian empowerment should be at the forefront of labor unrest put forth by leftist parties and organizations- at least enough so that the average news viewer can be aware of their existence.

Well labor struggle has been on the decline and the last two years have been the lowest on record for labor actions in the US. This demoralized atmosphere has meant that some left-groups who had some leadership positions just kept hold of that and are basically more or less indistinguishable from progressive bureaucrats after 30 years of labor stagnation. Groups like the IWW that want to organizie the unorganized and groups like my own that look toward rank and file action and movements have also had a rough time because of the objective situation where people were not organically fighting back or even believed that it was possible.

To me Wisconsin represents a break from that (as the WTO protests did, but that was then derailed by 9/11 and Bush even threatened to send troops after the ILWU in 2001 when they planned a labor action). If workers are fighting back then there is a potential to organize the unorganized, build more democratic rank and file fight-back within the bureaucratic unions and, hell, maybe even found a labor party in the US and break the Democrats hold on labor (if we start having many Wisconsisns and see a real significant labor revival that is).

There is no bolshevik party in the US, there isn't even a 1923 USCP in the US right now. Thing like Wisconsin represent our opportunity to rebuild working class radicalism in the US.

And incidentally, my comrades in the ISO as well as people from Solidarity have been involved in these protests in Madison from the beginning and actually are having teach-ins about socialism and are tabling INSIDE the state capital. They said the first day of the protest was like any big anti-war march and people would say "Thank you for doing what you do, but I'm not a socialist" when they'd approach. By the Saturday, they said that they had sold out of the current issue of the paper and all the back issues through October and had other people driving in from other cities to help out. The reported that people were organically huddling up at the protests and having their own teach-ins on various things and people were debating everything from the role of the democrats to the possibility of a general strike. This is a big confirmation for all US radicals that the US working class is not fundamentally different than workers anywhere else and that it is potentially possible to build a mass radical movement based in the working class here.

Really the only time I've had people falling over themselves to buy a radical paper or talk to a socialist was right after the first big immigrant right marches. Mono-lingual Spanish speakers who I couldn't even fully communicate with were pointing to the word "Socialista" and buying multiple copies and then handing them out to other people. It's confirmation to me that struggle is was makes the difference and that when working class people are on the move, they are interested in radical ideas and trying to make sense of politics from a working class perspective.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There is zero chance of a revolution in America at this time. That is exceedingly unlikely to change in any of our lifetimes.Considering the degree to which the capitalist crisis has shaken the foundations of stability in the neo-liberal era, I don't think there is much that can be predicted or ruled out at this point.

The US working class - because of a historical lack of organization - has never been a constant line. Struggle in the US has generally happened quickly over short periods of time. The late 20s and early 30s look much like the time we have gone through with unparalleled capitalist growth and decline of radical and class consciousness... very rapidly declining strikes and labor actions became a powerful labor movement in a matter of months. This is not to argue for a repeat, I don't think anyone can predict how things will take shape... but the important thing is for US comrades, this can be a return of the US working class, and labor movements specifically, to the scene as protagonists rather than victims.

I think with everything going on there is very little that can be ruled out: we could really see another World War due to increased imperialist competition and rivalry, we could see a proletarian revolution develop somewhere, we could see a real rise of fascism in reaction to increased labor and radical movements.

The emperor (capitalism in this case) has no clothes now and the contradictions that the system usually tries to hide are more obvious to people than at any time in most of our lifetimes. The debates we as radicals will have with non-radical activists and workers will no longer involve explaining how capitalism causes misery, inequality, poverty, war, and even fascism... people will probably already grasp these things and so our debates will more be about how do we make change, not if it is necessary or possible.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Okay, here's what I see in the here and now, with a practical example:

New York City's Central Labor Council (which is basically the sit-down of all the union capos in NYC) has announced not one, but two rallies at City Hall in support of the Wisconsin workers. Kind of funny, because on the Central Labor Council sit the very powerful Buildings Trades Council, which has consistently blocked any kind of union/community alliance, and is now prepared to sell the other unions down the river at a time when the Governor, Andy Cuomo, wants to pull a mini-Wisconsin on New York State (The Builders unions are, of course, totally dependent on Business and State construction projects; they're the ones who sent their hardhats to beat up on hippies back when Rockefeller was Governor.)

I can imagine the pressure the events in Wisconsin are putting on the Labor Council. I can imagine that it's only the beginning, when NY unions tell their bosses what some of the bosses have started going along with: EAT THE RICH!

Just remember: unions moving forward is like elephants fucking: it all happens at a very high level; it's accompanied by a lot of thrashing and posturing; and it takes forever to see the results.

BTW - thanks for the nice comments about the real activists at DailyKos...

[Across The Street]

"There is zero chance of a revolution in America at this time. That is exceedingly unlikely to change in any of our lifetimes."


You are straight-up full of shit. Revolutions are happening worldwide, and we are witnessing, and participating, in a struggle of immense proportions for the future of the human race. Disregard anyone who thinks differently. Capitalism has met its end. We may be divided by petty differences, but when it comes to the survival of the majority, we're all in this together, and everybody knows this.

[Tommy4ever]

"There is zero chance of a revolution in America at this time. That is exceedingly unlikely to change in any of our lifetimes."


You are straight-up full of shit. Revolutions are happening worldwide, and we are witnessing, and participating, in a struggle of immense proportions for the future of the human race. Disregard anyone who thinks differently. Capitalism has met its end. We may be divided by petty differences, but when it comes to the survival of the majority, we're all in this together, and everybody knows this.

:laugh:

Do you actually know anything about American politics, the labour movement or the people there?

Aside from a tiny and insignificant minority in the US no one wants revolution and no one is organising for revolution.

I wish the situation is different. But it's not.

Barring the utter collapse of the capitalist system - unlikely in the extreme - the Democrats and Republicans are going to hold all the power in America for the forseable future.

It's almost embarassing at times how dislocated from reality some people on this forum are.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Aside from a tiny and insignificant minority in the US no one wants revolution and no one is organizing for revolution. Untrue and true, respectively.

It's not true that not one wants revolution. If you mean that few have revolutionary consciousness and an idea of how to achieve change and what it could look like, well then that's true but that's more or less true everywhere, even in Egypt where they only have half the question settled. In the sense that most workers in the US are content, this is not true at all. Harvard just had a study that showed that 70% of black people without a high school degree are unemployed; youth unemployment is incredibly high. And on the ground level, people - especially young people, young working class people, want massive change and are pissed.

The rub is that your second point is true. People are not organizing and most people have no idea how to fight. That's why I see this as a potential beginning - people are fighting and will want to know how and begin to deal with these issues - and in dynamic times like these, things can develop really rapidly.

[S.Artesian]

Barring the utter collapse of the capitalist system - unlikely in the extreme - the Democrats and Republicans are going to hold all the power in America for the forseable future.

Well, first of all, it's not completely out of the question. Secondly, the utter collapse is usually preceded by intensified class struggle, something which indeed has emerged in the last 2 years in France, Greece, UK, Spain, South Korea, Egypt, [was the largest importer of Russian wheat, and wages were greatly impacted by the increased prices after the Russian embargo on exports], and now the US.

Besides that, the numbers are not so good on the economy that the bourgeoisie are going to let up on the intensity of their assault on workers. Trade and production have not recovered to their 2006, 2007 levels, and if you look closely at the numbers, the US and the EU has worked off barely half of their non-performing and overdue real estate and real estate backed debt.

So today, or yesterday it looks like Democrats and Republicans might hold power for the foreseeable future, but tomorrow there's a bit more of the future foreseeable, and things don't look all that rosy for business as usual.

Look, a revolution is initiated when the means and relations of production come into acute conflict. Clearly that era of acute conflict is upon us... whether a revolution is successful or not is something else, and that something depends on the ability of those to recognize, among other things, that the foreseeable future has yet to be determined.

[S.Artesian]

There is not a left capable of handling these developments, unfortunately.


That's kind of like saying the working class isn't capable of handling these developments.

OK, and so what? That's just indicative of the ground that has to be covered, the complexity of the struggle ahead. Happens everywhere. France, Greece, Spain have long histories of labor militancy, struggles against militarism, coups etc. Is the left in those counties capable of handling these developments? Same answer-- no and so what? Actually, not yet and so what. One more obstacle to overcome, but the need, the compelling force to overcome these obstacles won't go away.

If we can get 10 people in Madison, for example, organizing meetings open to union and non-union workers, pensioners, students, unemployed, migrant workers-- to move beyond the union/Dem agenda of, as comrade Higgins so aptly put it, giving up the bullets but keeping the gun, -- meetings that somehow take a stand against all cutbacks, against the tax cuts that have been enacted over the years in the attempt to "woo" business; that propose class actions and programs to eliminate use of employers to determine migrant "legality;" that proposes confiscation of all value in excess of $200,000 for any estate rather than just taxing inheritance [and even that might be too lenient, "liberal" a demand], with the amounts to be used for funding pension obligations, hospitals, health care, with the administration of such processes taken out of the hands of the existing state government and centered in the very organizations making the demand, then I think we're going somewhere.

[KC]

OK, and so what? That's just indicative of the ground that has to be covered, the complexity of the struggle ahead. Happens everywhere. France, Greece, Spain have long histories of labor militancy, struggles against militarism, coups etc. Is the left in those counties capable of handling these developments? Same answer-- no and so what? Actually, not yet and so what. One more obstacle to overcome, but the need, the compelling force to overcome these obstacles won't go away.

Yes but the ability to overcome those obstacles will not be found in more work, more planning, more organizing, but rather a qualitative shift toward smarter work, different forms of organization and broader organizing. This is something that the left has been failing at for the past couple of decades (in the US, at least).

The "if we just try hard enough, put more work in, and really commit, we can do it" mentality is in this case counterproductive because people are too set in a cycle that has historically proven itself to not work.



If we can get 10 people in Madison, for example, organizing meetings open to union and non-union workers, pensioners, students, unemployed, migrant workers-- to move beyond the union/Dem agenda of, as comrade Higgins so aptly put it, giving up the bullets but keeping the gun, -- meetings that somehow take a stand against all cutbacks, against the tax cuts that have been enacted over the years in the attempt to "woo" business; that propose class actions and programs to eliminate use of employers to determine migrant "legality;" that proposes confiscation of all value in excess of $200,000 for any estate rather than just taxing inheritance [and even that might be too lenient, "liberal" a demand], with the amounts to be used for funding pension obligations, hospitals, health care, with the administration of such processes taken out of the hands of the existing state government and centered in the very organizations making the demand, then I think we're going somewhere.If we get 10 different organizations holding 10 different meetings about the same issue, then we're getting nowhere, all things equal.

[S.Artesian]

If we get 10 different organizations holding 10 different meetings about the same issue, then we're getting nowhere, all things equal

I agree with that completely.

[bcbm]

Aside from a tiny and insignificant minority in the US no one wants revolution and no one is organising for revolution.

which has approximately no bearing on the possibility of revolution tomorrow or a week from now or a decade from now.


Barring the utter collapse of the capitalist system - unlikely in the extreme -on the contrary, things are escalating quickly and even the capitalists are getting nervous- hence the massive push for austerity.


the Democrats and Republicans are going to hold all the power in America for the forseable future.the dem rank and file are starting to break rank with the party because they know its full of shit and if the republicans can successfully kill the unions they've destroyed the biggest contributors to the democratic party. mainstream commentators are seriously discussing this being a struggle over the future of unions and the democratic party.


It's almost embarassing at times how dislocated from reality some people on this forum are.indeed.

--


That's kind of like saying the working class isn't capable of handling these developments.i don't think "the left" is necessary in the workers fight for their material interests

often the opposite

[Across The Street]

bcbm: "i don't think "the left" is necessary in the workers fight for their material interests

often the opposite "



Then fuck you and everything you stand for.

[Across The Street]

Tommy4ever:"Do you actually know anything about American politics, the labour movement or the people there?"

As a matter of fact I do, I've spent my whole damn life studying American politics, and the people who adhere to said politics. If you think I'm dislocated from the reality around me, you're off your fuckin rocker. I get shit from outsiders all the time, New Mexico is just too autonomous for some people.

[bcbm]

bcbm: "i don't think "the left" is necessary in the workers fight for their material interests

often the opposite "



Then fuck you and everything you stand for.

i'd be happy to discuss my stance if you'd like.