Why there are so many zionists in revleft?

[MarxistMan]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, and in favor of Palestines and muslims.

I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.

.

[Proukunin]

im sure for palestine, I thought most of us were.

[MarxistMan]

Indeed, i am in favor of a free Palestine state. Palestine should be an independent nation just like Venezuela, Italy or China. I don't know how can there be so many blinded dumb leftists who hate to critisize Isra-hell, because of being labeled as "Anti-semite"

Leftists should be free and shouldn't be controlled by their political party burocratic leaders. But critisizing the criminal behaviour of the Israel government is not anti-semitism at all

LONG LIVE THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE !!

.



im sure for palestine, I thought most of us were.

[Widerstand]

But critisizing the criminal behaviour of the Israel government is not anti-semitism at all

Ideally not, no, but sadly it's very possible for Israel critique to take Anti-Semite turns, something which Neonazis are fully aware of and exploiting to the max (but which Leftists also occasionally slip into).

That being said, I don't think an "independent Palestinian nation [state?]" is the most desirable of outcomes. Nor do I think blind Anti-Zionism of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort is particularly productive. Supporting the Hamas or Iran is stupid.

[bricolage]

I'm sorry but what are you on about...

of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.
Where has this happened?

[Widerstand]

I'm sorry but what are you on about...

Where has this happened?

Seems like a typical leftist exaggeration to me, just like when everything right wing suddenly is fascist.

[lines]

That being said, I don't think an "independent Palestinian nation [state?]" is the most desirable of outcomes.

What is the most desirable of outcomes in your opinion? The israeli government is restricting trade into palestinian territories and the palestinian people are gradually getting their land encroached upon by israeli settlers.

Do you propose expelling the arabs from the land and sending them to another place in the middle east? Do you propose incorporating them into Israeli society? Do you propose they remain in a state of national limbo and just continue living in a bad situation? Are there any other options I did not consider? Why are you against a palestinian nation and what do you think is the best outcome, the best situation that could happen ?

[freepalestine]

That being said, I don't think an "independent Palestinian nation [state?]" is the most desirable of outcomes. Nor do I think blind Anti-Zionism of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort is particularly productive. Supporting the Hamas or Iran is stupid.what would anyone expect from a zionist liberal .....


I'm sorry but what are you on about...

Where has this happened?ethnic cleansing has been going on since 1948-hadnt you read about it.theres a whole thread on that( - over the last 3months)

[bricolage]

ethnic cleansing has been going on since 1948-hadnt you read about it.theres a whole thread on that( - over the last 3months)
I meant when has anyone here been 'supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people'.

[gorillafuck]

Seems like a typical leftist exaggeration to me, just like when everything right wing suddenly is fascist.You've accused more people of being anti-semites than anybody on this forum. Recently you were accusing TC of being an apologist for nazism.

That being said, I don't think an "independent Palestinian nation [state?]" is the most desirable of outcomes. Nor do I think blind Anti-Zionism of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort is particularly productive. Supporting the Hamas or Iran is stupid.Anti-zionism doesn't mean support for Hamas, it means opposition to Israeli colonialism. A world socialist revolution would dismantle colonialist settlements and any sort of apartheid so anti-zionism is part of advocating world revolution.

Anyway, there aren't a lot of zionists on this forum. I've only ever seen one user who still posts, who will remain unnamed (and it's not Widerstand if you think that's who I mean, he's not a zionist), actually apologize for Israeli actions.

[Dimentio]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, and in favor of Palestines and muslims.

I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.

.

Could you name some of those famous "Zionists"?

[lines]

How about a leftist revolution...

And what would this leftist revolution look like? So your saying instead of the palestinians having a nation-state they should have a leftist revolution? Am I missing something? Could you explain this further? Because at the moment it seems like what your saying isn't logical.

[Widerstand]

And what would this leftist revolution look like? So your saying instead of the palestinians having a nation-state they should have a leftist revolution? Am I missing something? Could you explain this further? Because at the moment it seems like what your saying isn't logical.

Well I'm an anti-statist. I don't like states. I don't think creating MORE states is a good way to go about. I'd prefer an autonomous Palestinian state to the status quo however, but it sure as hell isn't the most desirable solution.

Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of nation states. A leftist revolution can happen in Palestine, or in Israel, or in *gasp* both Palestine and Israel.

[gorillafuck]

To clarify: I didn't say she apologizes for Naziism, I said she supports Nazis (Neonazis, more precisely). I still hold to my opinion that opposing Antifa actions on principle is the same as supporting the Nazi actions that were protested against. That's not the topic here however.If opposing antifa actions is the same as supporting neo-nazis, then is opposing the Taliban the same as supporting America?

Reminder: I did not take a political position in this post. I am merely asking a question to see if you are consistent. Please do not take my question as an endorsement or condemnation of any group whatsoever.


I'm also not as quick to call every random far right group fascist as some others here are, but maybe that little fact slipped your mod-ban-machinery.I'm gonna give you some insight into my mod activity. I am the most lenient mod on revleft, no joke. If you could see the mod forum you'd see that and they can probably back me up.

Also, what's wrong with being a mod? You actually wanted the position that I have....


Anti-Zionism can mean a fucking lot of things, and it can also mean supporting Hamas. Now I hope that most people on RevLeft don't support Hamas, but I'm not so sure with some. I've also had this funny convo on RevLeft IRC where someone said Iran should destroy Israel.Who said Iran should destroy Israel? I've never seen that advocated.


At least you have some spine and don't engage in the ridiculous namecalling of your anti-imp buddies.When have I ever been a tankie style "anti-imp"?

Answer: never. you're just having another temper tantrum and calling me names.

[lines]

Well I'm an anti-statist. I don't like states. I don't think creating MORE states is a good way to go about. I'd prefer an autonomous Palestinian state to the status quo however, but it sure as hell isn't the most desirable solution.

Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of nation states. A leftist revolution can happen in Palestine, or in Israel, or in *gasp* both Palestine and Israel.

In order for the palestinian people to have more of a chance of being treated with equal rights to israelis they need a nation-state that is recognized by the international community. Otherwise they will continue to be preyed upon by the israelis. Advocating for some autonomous zone only perpetuates their status as a discriminated against people.

[freepalestine]

.....What point exactly do you take issue with? That I don't support Hamas? That I don't support Iran? no -altho' you have proven to spout isreali propaganda.while forgetting about the reallity of isreali war crimes,occupation,ethnic cleansing,colonialsim-the talk of wmd's and iran etc is a zionist smokescreen-that some of us on the left dont fall for.



Anti-Zionism can mean a fucking lot of things, and it can also mean supporting Hamas. Now I hope that most people on RevLeft don't support Hamas, but I'm not so sure with some. I've also had this funny convo on RevLeft IRC where someone said Iran should destroy Israel.

what if people do support hamas,fateh ,pflp or whomever.forget about iran and realise what isreal stands for.rather than falling for zionist propaganda/scare tactics -ie.iran,hamas --

[Decolonize The Left]

Well I'm an anti-statist. I don't like states. I don't think creating MORE states is a good way to go about. I'd prefer an autonomous Palestinian state to the status quo however, but it sure as hell isn't the most desirable solution.

Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of nation states. A leftist revolution can happen in Palestine, or in Israel, or in *gasp* both Palestine and Israel.

I think you should drop your black-and-white, revolution-or-nothing, state-or-nostate, infantile and inane position.

- Critiquing something on principle doesn't not necessitate support for it's opposite or counter-positive.
Ex: I critique the position of US Democrats. Doesn't that mean I'm a Republican?!?! On a leftist forum?! No. It's a simple position to hold and it's totally logical and productive.

- A leftist revolution isn't going to happen in Palestine, at least not soon. Get over it. These people are fighting for their lives. Not the means of production.

- A leftist revolution isn't going to happen in Israel. Not for a long time. Get over it. Your impractical and totally idealistic arguments are worthless when faced with facts: the situation of Palestine is one of extreme circumstances which could be likened to a genocide. It's not the blatant and overt destruction of a people like we've seen in Germany, but there are certainly similarities deserving of note.

In short, you have no argument.

You have idealistic claims about what 'you'd like to see,' which are, of course, entirely worthless in reality.
You have a black-and-white extreme painting of a complex and nuanced situation which you are using to insult and pander to the emotional strings of members in this discussion.

Stop it. Debate with dignity or read the thread in silence.

- August

[Nolan]

I don't know of any zionists on revleft. Unless you mean OI.

[Decolonize The Left]

Why is this directed at me? Zeekloid for example also believes that the most desirable outcome for Israel/Palestine would be a leftist revolution in both. What's wrong with that? How is it "black and white"? In the past I've been called a Zionist for saying that a two-state solution is preferable to the status quo, now I'm being called an idealist/black-and-white thinker/infantile because I say a leftist revolution is of course preferable to a two state solution. Fuck you.
But unlike you, Zeekloid doesn't crap on valid arguments because they don't fit this narrow mold.

And you didn't say a leftist revolution is "preferable," you insulted someone over the fact that they weren't touting your line.


Or are you opposed to a leftist revolution in Israel/Palestine?

What kind of a bullshit question is this?

Here, I'll lay it out for you:
There isn't a leftist revolution in Israel/Palestine. So I cannot be in support or opposition of something which doesn't exist..

- August

[Rafiq]

Here, I'll lay it out for you:
There isn't a leftist revolution in Israel/Palestine. So I cannot be in support or opposition of something which doesn't exist..

- August

There isn't a leftist revolution at where you live either.

[Le Libérer]

Why is this directed at me? Zeekloid for example also believes that the most desirable outcome for Israel/Palestine would be a leftist revolution in both. What's wrong with that? How is it "black and white"? In the past I've been called a Zionist for saying that a two-state solution is preferable to the status quo, now I'm being called an idealist/black-and-white thinker/infantile because I say a leftist revolution is of course preferable to a two state solution. Fuck you.

Or are you opposed to a leftist revolution in Israel/Palestine?

Infraction for flaming, not just August but everyone you have engaged in this thread and some that arent in this thread.

Its been a long time coming.

[HEAD ICE]

What is the most desirable of outcomes in your opinion? The israeli government is restricting trade into palestinian territories and the palestinian people are gradually getting their land encroached upon by israeli settlers.

Do you propose expelling the arabs from the land and sending them to another place in the middle east? Do you propose incorporating them into Israeli society? Do you propose they remain in a state of national limbo and just continue living in a bad situation? Are there any other options I did not consider? Why are you against a palestinian nation and what do you think is the best outcome, the best situation that could happen ?

Palestinian national liberation is far more in the field of fantasy and delusion than a socialist revolution, this is directed both to you and AugustWest. I also would like to know how creating a country named Palestine will alleviate the suffering of the Palestinians. However, most importantly, how will it help advance global workers revolution?

Palestinians are fighting for their lives, they are being directly oppressed by capital. The best way they can save their lives IS to fight for the means of production. That is far more realistic in terms of actually happening and ending the pain than supporting the creation of a country which would be fully dependent on Israel and Jordan (Jordan, a country of Palestinians, which has shown itself to be quite capable in massacreing their Palestinian "brothers").

Israel is occupying the West Bank for a multitude of reasons, which all have a basis in the material interests of the Israeli state. Most importantly is water. The threat to the lives of the Palestinians is not due to an out of control country, acting completely erratically and oppressing people because they consider it their "God given land."

[Amphictyonis]

Maoist Rebel News!

[Le Libérer]

omg fucking gd..... I'm going to split all off topic posts to be trashy trash.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think that the most desirable solution, in a "realist" sort of way (because obviously I assume that everyone thinks that a socialist revolution that abolishes all states would be ideal) would be the one-state solution, where Palestinians and Israelis participate as equals in the democratic arena of a secular state (in contrast to the repressive ethnocracy that stands now). Isn't that what the PFLP's stance has traditionally been?

Admittedly I don't know as much about the situation as I'd like to.

[Amphictyonis]

omg fucking gd..... I'm going to split all off topic posts to be trashy trash.

I saw his video where he accused RevLeft of being run by Zionists and thought it was funny. I don't think it's entirely off topic I'm pretty much saying I think the premise of this thread is funny :) "If you swim in the deep end too long you'll drown, sometimes you have to rest in the shallows"

[PhoenixAsh]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, and in favor of Palestines and muslims.

Are you trolling?

There are no unrestricted zionists here on Revleft.



I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.


Are you trying to enflame the masses?

Nobody unrestricted here support genocide here on Revleft. Somehowever do recognize the right of selfdefence.



Indeed, i am in favor of a free Palestine state. Palestine should be an independent nation just like Venezuela, Italy or China. I don't know how can there be so many blinded dumb leftists who hate to critisize Isra-hell, because of being labeled as "Anti-semite"

I am in favor of the abolishment of all states. I support a one nation solution in the region of Palestine because its currently the most obtainable...and I reject a two state solution on principle as being the end point.

And one of the reasons for my position is that Hamas should never be allowed to form a government or hold a large position of power in any governing body seeing as they are a reactionary, theocratic terrorist organisation, granted they are an understandable symptom of Israeli oppression but I do NOT support them.

An other reason is that a two state solution is injustified by the disproportion between amount and quality of territory and the rejection an negation of the wish for any group to be independent.



Leftists should be free and shouldn't be controlled by their political party burocratic leaders. But critisizing the criminal behaviour of the Israel government is not anti-semitism at allp

And neither is the criticising of Hamas and Fatah for their criminal and reactionary behaviour any form of zionism



LONG LIVE THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE !!


You do realise that this includes the people living in what currently is Israel don't you? They have rights too


Ideally not, no, but sadly it's very possible for Israel critique to take Anti-Semite turns, something which Neonazis are fully aware of and exploiting to the max (but which Leftists also occasionally slip into).

Agreed.



That being said, I don't think an "independent Palestinian nation [state?]" is the most desirable of outcomes. Nor do I think blind Anti-Zionism of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort is particularly productive. Supporting the Hamas or Iran is stupid.


Agreed...see above.


Seems like a typical leftist exaggeration to me, just like when everything right wing suddenly is fascist.

This is only too true and we are all guilty of that form of exaggeration at one time or another...we should do well to use some selfcritique every now and then.


Well I'm an anti-statist. I don't like states. I don't think creating MORE states is a good way to go about. I'd prefer an autonomous Palestinian state to the status quo however, but it sure as hell isn't the most desirable solution.

Agreed...however reality also dictates that this, at the current time is unobtainable.

A side note I would like to say that autonomous is to be rejected in the light of the politics of Israel. It does not go far enough... we have seen what autonomy in reality means.



Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of nation states. A leftist revolution can happen in Palestine, or in Israel, or in *gasp* both Palestine and Israel.

eventually...but until it does we need to take away focus from the current civil war that is raging in the region which draws away attention from class struggle.



If opposing antifa actions is the same as supporting neo-nazis, then is opposing the Taliban the same as supporting America?

Either both are to be rejected or you are taking sides.

In the case of Antifa...opposition to the movement is obstructing the ongoing struggle against fascism and do not realise the war has not ended in 1945 and we are directly being threatened for our political views and NOT our actions....which is the case with Taliban vs the US.

In the reflection back on the Hamas vs Israel situation...they are equally racist and predjudiced as Israel is and are waging a war with the intent of genocide and ethnic cleansing.



what if people do support hamas,fateh ,pflp or whomever.forget about iran and realise what isreal stands for.rather than falling for zionist propaganda/scare tactics -ie.iran,hamas --

Then they are reactionary and dumb...replacing one oppressor for another is not a solution.

They are both symptoms of the Israeli oppression but part of the disease none-the-less.




- Critiquing something on principle doesn't not necessitate support for it's opposite or counter-positive.

Agreed...though sometimes it does.


Ex: I critique the position of US Democrats. Doesn't that mean I'm a Republican?!?! On a leftist forum?! No. It's a simple position to hold and it's totally logical and productive.

well...to be fair...in absence of a workable and vialble solution it may result withing the relevant political context it will embolden support for the Republicans if you advocate it in the wrong way and to the wrong people.



- A leftist revolution isn't going to happen in Israel. Not for a long time. Get over it. Your impractical and totally idealistic arguments are worthless when faced with facts: the situation of Palestine is one of extreme circumstances which could be likened to a genocide. It's not the blatant and overt destruction of a people like we've seen in Germany, but there are certainly similarities deserving of note.


Agreed...however supporting opposing factions who have the same goal should be rejected on principle...

[Red Bayonet]

Many people who post on RevLeft are trolls from right wing groups, or from US Army/police fusion cells.

[Quail]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, andin favor of Palestines and muslims.

I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.
I haven't seen any zionists on here that I can think of off the top of my head. I think that while we condemn the actions of the Israeli state, we also have to be critical in our support for the people of Palestine. Being the oppressed minority doesn't mean that you're immune to criticism. I think that sometimes the support for muslims can go too far in that people fail to criticise Islam as a religion (as all religions are reactionary and should be criticised).

[PhoenixAsh]

Many people who post on RevLeft are trolls from right wing groups, or from US Army/police fusion cells.


Is this an outing? ;)


Think of it like this you and I may be the only true revolutionary here or indeed in the rest of the world...surrounded by intelligence services... hows that for paranoia :-D

[Mr.Awesome]

If criticizing the actions of Israel and that of the jewish bourgeois is anti-Semitic, let me be ten times the anti-Semite Hitler was :)


Zionism is an evil, racist ideology that should not be tolerated on RevLeft.
Zionism is against everything we as leftists stand for.

I simply do not understand the 'leftist' Zionists who criticise homophobia and sexism and the oppression of the working class but then defend the oppression of the Palestinians.

[Le Libérer]

I saw his video where he accused RevLeft of being run by Zionists and thought it was funny. I don't think it's entirely off topic I'm pretty much saying I think the premise of this thread is funny :) "If you swim in the deep end too long you'll drown, sometimes you have to rest in the shallows"

I was speaking of Widerstand. Were you?

[nuisance]

I was speaking of Widerstand. Were you?
Can you make a post on the subject matter, instead of just littering it with 'trash' this and 'infraction' that. Atleast August provided an arguement opposed to wavering in with their self-important authority. Wouldn't that be much better behaviour from an admin, eh?

[MarxistMan]

Many college academic leftists think that the world is a book. And if they support Hamas and Hezbollah they will be condemned to hell. How damn anti-realism they are. They have never been in countries with deep social problems. They are too utopian. Many perfectionist trotkists and leftists are being scared of being labeled as nazis.

You know how the perfectionist, puritan, anti-scientific, anti-realist leftists of "International Communist Current" are, they even hate Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and they are an enemy of a real change in this world.

The world left is fucked up because millions of leftists hate Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Rafael Correa. They have this idea that if a revolution is not led by regular workers like cooks, floor cleaners, plumbers, teachers and mine workers, we shouldn't support that revolution.

How dumb they are, the working class all over the world are too militarily weak, and there is almost no way for the working class to rise to power by themselves

We have to be realists about Palestine and Israel and all leftists should support Hamas and Hezbollah against the evil zionist state of Israel.


.



no -altho' you have proven to spout isreali propaganda.while forgetting about the reallity of isreali war crimes,occupation,ethnic cleansing,colonialsim-the talk of wmd's and iran etc is a zionist smokescreen-that some of us on the left dont fall for.

what if people do support hamas,fateh ,pflp or whomever.forget about iran and realise what isreal stands for.rather than falling for zionist propaganda/scare tactics -ie.iran,hamas --

[Amphictyonis]

The entire world needs a magic wand waved over it which will make everyone forget the Abrahamic religions (organized religion in general). What people do when they think they have a monopoly on reality can be horrible. They're all basically cults. Death cults.

[Luís Henrique]

Many college academic leftists think that the world is a book.
Who?

Luís Henrique

[Princess Luna]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, and in favor of Palestines and muslims.

I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.

.
*hides Israeli flag behind back* i don't know what you speak of good sir....

on a more serious note, people who openly support Israel are restricted so acting like the site is over-run with Zionists is stupid. show me one post outside of OI were someone supports Zionism.

[khad]

Are you trolling?

There are no unrestricted zionists here on Revleft.


on a more serious note, people who openly support Israel are restricted so acting like the site is over-run with Zionists is stupid. show me one post outside of OI were someone supports Zionism.

Actually, technically, Zionism (as in supporting the right of Israel to exist in addition to its self-defense) is not an OI at revleft. This has been clarified in numerous moderation threads over the years. Even the Zionist poster child ComradeMan was actually restricted not for Zionism but for supporting the NATO war in Afghanistan.

If Zionists are restricted, it's usually because of some other facet to their politics. Not very difficult, as many of them tend to exhibit strong racist or imperialist predilections.

[PhoenixAsh]

aha...ok... Thanks for the explanation.

[RadioRaheem84]

There was a poster named Krimskram was pretty defensive about Israel and posted some textbook pro-Israeli arguments. I'm talking Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz stuff.

Other than that, nothing else. Widerstand was a bit defensive about Israel too.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

Hello all: I would like to know why there are so many zionists in revleft? When leftists should be anti-zionism, and in favor of Palestines and muslims.

I just don't get why there are so many people in this website who claim to be in favor of the little guy and the oppressed and yet they show their true colors of supporting the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel against Palestine people.

.

Your exactly right. People are welcomed to a country by there distant relative, then stab them in the back, take there land and wage a war on them. HOW IS THAT NOT IMPERIALIST??? The people who claim the "Left" who are Zionist really dont know whats going on.Simple as that

[Rafiq]

At this point of me being here (not that long, like less than a year) I can't say that there are any Zionists outside of OI.

Edelweiss is accused of Zionism, but I'm under suspicion that he's just joking.

[lines]

Personally I am not on Israel side or the side of Palestinians. I do want the USA to stop supporting ISrael though, but I wouldn't want the USA supporting any side.

[Agent Ducky]

I haven't seen Zionists anywhere in Revleft... Only anti-Zionists.