Again

[RGacky3]

Can anybody argue that the United States is the biggest factor holding back the peace process (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/us-vetoes-israel-settlement_n_825391.html).

The US IS reponsible for the violence in palestine, why? They can stop it, immediately, the Isrealis are acting, palestinians re-acting, and the US is funding the whole thing and stopping any one else from trying to stop it.

[Delirium]

Israel would not survive without US military, economic, and diplomatic aid.

[RGacky3]

No it could but it might have to do the unthinkable and actually negotiate a peace deal with the palestinians. :crying:, say it aint so!!!

[B5C]

Israel would not survive without US military, economic, and diplomatic aid.

Israel can live without US aid.

[ComradeMan]

The US accounts for 37.6% of Israel's exports, so as a single nation the US is Israel's largest trading partner, however the other 62.4% is the EU and China.

The US also provides aid to the Palestinians- according to 2009 stats, $400 million or so.

Israel also receives about €250 million in annual reparations from Germany.

These stats are not exact as they come from different years- but just to give an idea more or less.

The US is not the only player.

[RGacky3]

The US also provides aid to the Palestinians- according t0 2009 stats, $400 million or so.


What kind of aid and for what, I'll tell you this much, its nothing thats empowering the palestinians.


The US is not the only player.

No but it is THE BIG player, and the only one blocking peace.

[ComradeMan]

What kind of aid and for what, I'll tell you this much, its nothing thats empowering the palestinians..

The Palestinian authority, the Palestinian police force, infrastructures and humanitarian aid.


No but it is THE BIG player, and the only one blocking peace.

No, it's the only player "stupid" enough to open its big political mouth all the damn time. ;)

[Lord Testicles]

The Palestinian authority, the Palestinian police force, infrastructures and humanitarian aid.

How much aid do you think the US provides to Israel?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/US_aid_to_Israel.gif

A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion. (http://www.wrmea.com/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html)

[RGacky3]

No, it's the only player "stupid" enough to open its big political mouth all the damn time. ;)

No, the problem is thye keep it shut, they empower Isreal to comming crimes against the palestinians, and they let them do it and stop anyone else from trying to stop them.

Its not that they are opening their political mouth, he'll I wish they would.

[Viet Minh]

Can anybody argue that the United States is the biggest factor holding back the peace process (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/us-vetoes-israel-settlement_n_825391.html).




The United States vetoed a U.N. resolution Friday that would have condemned "illegal" Israeli settlements... The 14 other Security Council members voted in favor of the resolution


Hopes for Democracy

I'm still not taking sides but this is a bizarre reaction from the US.

[RGacky3]

Is it really a bizarre reaction? The US has vetoed stuff like this forever.

[ComradeMan]

Is it really a bizarre reaction? The US has vetoed stuff like this forever.

No one is denying that the US aids Israel. That's not the point. The point is that some are saying that Israel would not be able to survive without US aid, of which I am not convinced- without denying the obvious benefits that are drawn from such aid.

Re the Palestinians- well, I can't vouch for reliability but I found this:-


$400.4 million have been appropriated for economic aid to the Palestinians and $100 million for support of PA police training, etc. for FY2010. The U.S. also provided just over $61.5 million (as of February 13, 2009) in emergency humanitarian aid through USAID, UNRWA, and the International Committee of the Red Cross following Israel's assault on Gaza.
at:- http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

In this Congressional Research Service report, 2010:-
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

it states that since 2004 US aid to the Palestinians has amounted to $400 million a year and since (at writing 2010) the Oslo Accord (1993) the US has provided $3.5 billion in bilateral aid assistance.

[RGacky3]

compare that to what Isreal gets, its not really significant.

The point is that the US and Isreal are blocking the peace process every step of the way.

[Baseball]

Doesn't anyone watch the news anymore?? The violence in the Mid-east are Arabs protesting their treatment by other Arabs. Israel does not figure in.

The revolts sweeping across the Arab world should finally put to rest the the claim that Israeli occupation of the West Bank is the source of the problems in that region.

[RGacky3]

I love that, Arabs are juts allowed one problem at a time, and all of them have the same single issue.

As far as palestinians are concerned ... Yeah, Isreal still figures in.

No one is blaiming Isreal for Mubarak, no one is blaiming Isreal for Gadaffi, we are blaiming isreal for palestine.

I gotta say that post makes you looks like a moron. Its like saying "well Europeans are mad at Burlosconi, so obviously racism in france can't be a problem."

ITS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY DUMBASS.

[Baseball]

I love that, Arabs are juts allowed one problem at a time, and all of them have the same single issue.

As far as palestinians are concerned ... Yeah, Isreal still figures in.

No one is blaiming Isreal for Mubarak, no one is blaiming Isreal for Gadaffi, we are blaiming isreal for palestine.

I gotta say that post makes you looks like a moron. Its like saying "well Europeans are mad at Burlosconi, so obviously racism in france can't be a problem."

ITS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY DUMBASS.

You are the one talking about "mid-east" peace (not peace in one small area, but across the entire region) hinges on what happens with regards to Israel and the Palestinians.

Obviously, it doesn't.

[RGacky3]

all right I miss spoke, but did you actually think I meant the whole middle east? I was talking specifically about Isreal, peace in the middle east many times refers to the Isreali palestinian conflict.

You did'nt really think that I was refering the THE WHOLE middle east did you?

[#FF0000]

The revolts sweeping across the Arab world should finally put to rest the the claim that Israeli occupation of the West Bank is the source of the problems in that region.

Good thing literally no one on this site believes this.

[Baseball]

all right I miss spoke, but did you actually think I meant the whole middle east? I was talking specifically about Isreal, peace in the middle east many times refers to the Isreali palestinian conflict.

You did'nt really think that I was refering the THE WHOLE middle east did you?

Gacky, across the entire mid-east, the greatest violence has been occurring in Arab countries, by Arabs against Arabs. I am not just talking about the 1000 dead in Libya and the assorted handfuls in the various other Arab states of late. The torture and raping that went on for years. Did Israel really cause all those problems? Admit it-- the revolts prove that the Israel is not now, nor has it been, the source of the problems in the ME.

[#FF0000]

No one ever said Israel was the reason, though. If anything, folks would say it's "America", or "Imperialism"...

... Which has been proven to be entirely true because p. much every despot who's been challenged has been an important ally to the US, or, in the case of Libya, a guy who American industries have some lucrative deals with.

[ComradeMan]

No one ever said Israel was the reason, though. If anything, folks would say it's "America", or "Imperialism"...

... Which has been proven to be entirely true because p. much every despot who's been challenged has been an important ally to the US, or, in the case of Libya, a guy who American industries have some lucrative deals with.

What about the despots who haven't been challenged....:lol:

[PhoenixAsh]

The US also provides aid to the Palestinians- according to 2009 stats, $400 million or so.

compared to the 2.97 billion a year towards Israel...this is NOT trade but direct financial and military aid. The Israeli's have requested the amount is payed in euro's as well.


Now...as for the EU argument. The EU has no united diplomatic stance on Israel. Many countries within the EU are becomming more and more critical....adopting several resolutions and reports condemning Israel aswel as Hamas.


The total US import from Israel is 17.2 billion dollars....which holds no tarrifs. The next on the list is Hong Kong with 7.6% and Belgium woth 4.53%...the rest is devided over the rest of the world.

You specifically forgot to mention Canada, Turkey, Jordan, Japan, China, India and several other Arab and Asian nations.





Israel also receives about €250 million in annual reparations from Germany.


See above...



These stats are not exact as they come from different years- but just to give an idea more or less.


Indeed....the annual military and financial aid towards Israel far surpasses the total of all other countries.



The US is not the only player.


Its the only player that matters since they aid Israel with four times as much money as the rest of the world....and as you so rightly mentioned they are the number one trade partenr by about 28% its the only country which they can NOT afford to lose.

[ComradeMan]

Look, I don't doubt the enormity of US aid to Israel, yet at the same time I do not think that Israel would cease to exist without that aid.

Now, if the US were to stop all aid to Israel would that not put it in the awkward diplomatic position (think realworld politics and not idealistic stuff) of cutting all aid to Palestinians too- this would, ironically, see the Palestinians lose out in the long run.

More reasons to end all of this bullshit and work towards a one-state solution. People must learn to live in peace with each other.

[PhoenixAsh]

Palestinians lose out anyway because the continuation of that aid serves a country that flat out refuses to uphold international law and work towards a realistic peace settlement....and ues large parts of these funds to repress the Palestinians in the first place.

So I really do not see the point in continuing the 400 million dollar farce of "so I do not feel bad...and you can't complain" hand outs....if it means that on the other hand you keep country from ever becomming more than some repressed autonomous region.

In fact...disontinuing the funds, or at the very least threats of withdrawl, could restart a very fruitful peace proces tomorrow.

By and large the 400 million dollars have done extremely little to bring that about and had little or no impact on Palestinian everyday life.

[RGacky3]

The torture and raping that went on for years. Did Israel really cause all those problems? Admit it-- the revolts prove that the Israel is not now, nor has it been, the source of the problems in the ME.

Did you read my post? I was'nt claiming that, I was saying the palestinians plight is caused by Isreal, and the conflict in palestine is caused by Isreal and the United States.

Read what you quote.


Now, if the US were to stop all aid to Israel would that not put it in the awkward diplomatic position (think realworld politics and not idealistic stuff) of cutting all aid to Palestinians too- this would, ironically, see the Palestinians lose out in the long run.

More reasons to end all of this bullshit and work towards a one-state solution. People must learn to live in peace with each other.

Stop all MILITARY AID to Isreal, and also cut all palestinian military aid, which is 0.

And its cutting the military aid for a reason, cutting it unless they stop the blockaid, end the settlements and and the occupations.

Only then can you work towards a one state solution.

Your one-state solution is great but you have no plan to get there. Any plan has to begin with ending the settlements, the occupation, the blockaid and so on.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

No one ever said Israel was the reason, though. If anything, folks would say it's "America", or "Imperialism"...

... Which has been proven to be entirely true because p. much every despot who's been challenged has been an important ally to the US, or, in the case of Libya, a guy who American industries have some lucrative deals with.

There have been protests in Iran, which were brutally put down and now the longstanding figureheads of the opposition, and their wives, have been put in jail in an unknown location. And let's face it, Mubarak was a dictator, yes, but on a whole different level from the Baathist regime in Syria, were all resistance has been brutally crushed during their reign. Finally, the US has economic ties to pretty much everywhere. Saying oil was bought from Libya as a cause for the unrest isn't accurate in my opinion (Tobruk began exporting oil again on the 28th of february, for example).

[ComradeMan]

There have been protests in Iran, which were brutally put down and now the longstanding figureheads of the opposition, and their wives, have been put in jail in an unknown location. And let's face it, Mubarak was a dictator, yes, but on a whole different level from the Baathist regime in Syria, were all resistance has been brutally crushed during their reign. Finally, the US has economic ties to pretty much everywhere. Saying oil was bought from Libya as a cause for the unrest isn't accurate in my opinion (Tobruk began exporting oil again on the 28th of february, for example).

The same Iran that did what to the Iranian communists..... :rolleyes:

[Amphictyonis]

Israel would not survive without US military, economic, and diplomatic aid.

The Israeli state shouldn't exist. That's what the anarchist in me thinks. At the least after WW2 America should have welcomed all the Jews, we shouldnt have put them in the "Chosen Land" surrounded by enemies. Hello time machine? Can we move Israel over to Canada? just merge the Israeli and Canadian state and call it.....any good name suggestions?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The Israeli state shouldn't exist. That's what the anarchist in me thinks. At the least after WW2 America should have welcomed all the Jews, we shouldnt have put them in the "Chosen Land" surrounded by enemies. Hello time machine? Can we move Israel over to Canada? just merge the Israeli and Canadian state and call it.....any good name suggestions?

Or we could go back and stop the Romans from detroying Israel. The past is a moot point in some cases. Yes, history needs to be recognized but arguing about whether or not Israel should or should not, or whether it has a right to, exist is entirely a moot point. Israel is real and has the upper hand.

And absolutley Israel would continue to exist if the US cut all aid, which won't happen.

[Amphictyonis]

Or we could go back and stop the Romans from detroying Israel. The past is a moot point in some cases. Yes, history needs to be recognized but arguing about whether or not Israel should or should not, or whether it has a right to, exist is entirely a moot point. Israel is real and has the upper hand.

And absolutley Israel would continue to exist if the US cut all aid, which won't happen.

They would exist but would be invaded and would end up using nukes. I think in some strange fucked up way the US is trying to keep this from happening. In reality Israel and the US aren't necessarily all holding hands running through fields of daisies as many people think. They simply have similar interests geopolitically and economically.

[RGacky3]

They would exist but would be invaded and would end up using nukes. I think in some strange fucked up way the US is trying to keep this from happening. In reality Israel and the US aren't necessarily all holding hands running through fields of daisies as many people think. They simply have similar interests geopolitically and economically.

Who would invade Isreal?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Nobody Israel could not defend against. I believe stopping the flow of military aid might make Israel think twice about venturing into Lebanon or striking Iran though.

[ComradeMan]

Nobody Israel could not defend against. I believe stopping the flow of military aid might make Israel think twice about venturing into Lebanon or striking Iran though.

I'd leave the Iranian regime out of it. They just stir the shit too. I never remember Israel calling for Iran to be wiped off the map or cancelled from history.

[RGacky3]

There have been polls around the middle east, as to the greatest threat, to peace there, number one is Isreal and the United States (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/641/middle-east-summit-annapolis), Iran also ranks pretty high. But there is a good reason the biggest threat is ISreal and the US, history, what they have actually done, they have been the biggest aggressors, plus they have the nukes.

[ComradeMan]

There have been polls around the middle east, as to the greatest threat, to peace there, number one is Isreal and the United States (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/641/middle-east-summit-annapolis), Iran also ranks pretty high. But there is a good reason the biggest threat is ISreal and the US, history, what they have actually done, they have been the biggest aggressors, plus they have the nukes.

Polls in England show that 48% of people don't want Muslims/immigrants etc etc etc.....

Historically speaking Israel was attacked by its neighbouring states three times- 1948, the Sixs Days War and the Yom Kippur War. During it's early stages Israel was supported a great deal by the USSR- the USA inttervened in 1973 and its since then that the USA has been the major supporter/financer. The reason why the USA stepped in was more to do with Cold War politics during the 1970s and averting a nuclear conflict after the USSR had threatened to intervene on the side of the Arab forces. The USSR had, despite its outward anti-Zionism, taken up a pro-Israel stance under Stalin in order to further the decline of British Imperial influence in the Middle East.This relationship (USSR) changed radically during the mid- to late 1950s with USSR support of the Arab nations Israel inevitably became more of a Western Ally- or vice-versa.
Soviet Foreign Minister Andrey Gromyko (1947):
"As we know, the aspirations of a considerable part of the Jewish people are linked with the problem of Palestine and of its future administration. This fact scarcely requires proof... During the last war, the Jewish people underwent exceptional sorrow and suffering...
The United Nations cannot and must not regard this situation with indifference, since this would be incompatible with the high principles proclaimed in its Charter...
The fact that no Western European State has been able to ensure the defence of the elementary rights of the Jewish people and to safeguard it against the violence of the fascist executioners explains the aspirations of the Jews to establish their own State. It would be unjust not to take this into consideration and to deny the right of the Jewish people to realize this aspiration"
UN Debate Regarding the Special Committee on Palestine: Gromyko Statement. 14 May 1947 77th Plenary Meeting (http://www.mideastweb.org/gromyko1947.htm) Document A/2/PV.77
http://www.mideastweb.org/gromyko1947.htm

Like I've said before, this situation if complex and intricate- you can't just divide it into two clearly defined camps.

[RGacky3]

Polls in England show that 48% of people don't want Muslims/immigrants etc etc etc.....


Yup, so you have to look at the reasons for that.


Like I've said before, this situation if complex and intricate- you can't just divide it into two clearly defined camps.

Absolutely, but there is a reason people in the area consider the US especially, and Isreal to be the biggest threats.

Your point about the USSR is moot, the USSR does'nt exist any more.

[ComradeMan]

Your point about the USSR is moot, the USSR does'nt exist any more.

It's not moot in any sense of the word. Do you think the legacy of USSR-US politics and the Cold War isn't with us today? It just went away by itself between 1989-1991? :laugh:

[RGacky3]

Do you think the legacy of USSR-US politics and the Cold War isn't with us today? It just went away by itself between 1989-1991? :laugh:

No, but how does that change that over the last 15 years, its been the US and Isreal blocking the peace process in Palestine? No matter what the background for that.

[ComradeMan]

No, but how does that change that over the last 15 years, its been the US and Isreal blocking the peace process in Palestine? No matter what the background for that.

You can't ignore the background in these matters. People have long memories- especially in the Middle East, from my experience.

[RGacky3]

You can't ignore the background in these matters. People have long memories- especially in the Middle East, from my experience.

Yeah ... But the USSR does'nt exist any more, so its not blocking the peace process ....

[ComradeMan]

Yeah ... But the USSR does'nt exist any more, so its not blocking the peace process ....

FFS!

The peace process is blocked all round by all sides. But you fail to analyse what lies behind this "blocking"- the roots of this conflict span decades, if not centuries- your superficial analyses are worthless political sloganeering.

[RGacky3]

The peace process is blocked all round by all sides. But you fail to analyse what lies behind this "blocking"- the roots of this conflict span decades, if not centuries- your superficial analyses are worthless political sloganeering.

No its not, the biggest obsticles to peace are the settlements, the blockaid and the occupation, stopping systematic aggression is step one to any peace process.

All of those things are being done by Isreal, Isreal can do them because they have unnaccountable military support from the US, that blocks every resolution to stop that systematic aggression.

Now if the US did this in the past as part of the greater Cold war then fine, but thats not the case any more, so its not relevant.

This systematic aggression is the one thing that needs to stop, its being done by Isreal and its empowered by the United States.

[ComradeMan]

No its not, the biggest obsticles to peace are the settlements, the blockaid and the occupation, stopping systematic aggression is step one to any peace process.

All of those things are being done by Isreal, Isreal can do them because they have unnaccountable military support from the US, that blocks every resolution to stop that systematic aggression.

Now if the US did this in the past as part of the greater Cold war then fine, but thats not the case any more, so its not relevant.

This systematic aggression is the one thing that needs to stop, its being done by Isreal and its empowered by the United States.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The policies adopted a generation ago have bearing on what happens now. For every cause there is a reaction.

The major obstacle, maybe- but not the only obstacle. Anyway, how can you have any kind of peace deal, agreement, settlement etc when some of the other "players" refuse to even recognise Israel in the first place, even according to the Green Line?

[RGacky3]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The policies adopted a generation ago have bearing on what happens now. For every cause there is a reaction.


Did you read my post?


The major obstacle, maybe- but not the only obstacle. Anyway, how can you have any kind of peace deal, agreement, settlement etc when some of the other "players" refuse to even recognise Israel in the first place, even according to the Green Line?

Not saying "I recognise Isreal," is much less problematic to peace in the real world as is the occupation, the blockaid, the settlements.

Its the main obsticle, yet you always try and minimise it by bringing up other stuff. For once will you be honest.

The settlements, the occupation the blockaid are what is stopping peace from going further, Isreal is doing it, and the US is implicit nad supporting it.

[ComradeMan]

Did you read my post?

Not saying "I recognise Isreal," is much less problematic to peace in the real world as is the occupation, the blockaid, the settlements.

Its the main obsticle, yet you always try and minimise it by bringing up other stuff. For once will you be honest.

The settlements, the occupation the blockaid are what is stopping peace from going further, Isreal is doing it, and the US is implicit nad supporting it.

Why is it the main "obsticle"? Prove that it is the main "obsticle"! The main obstacle is the fact that there are a whole myriad of obstacles all interwoven. Quite frankly I'd personally call them all round a big negotiating table and bang their heads together... but it's not up to me.

[RGacky3]

Why is it the main "obsticle"? Prove that it is the main "obsticle"! The main obstacle is the fact that there are a whole myriad of obstacles all interwoven. Quite frankly I'd personally call them all round a big negotiating table and bang their heads together... but it's not up to me.

Thats happened, Palestine has offered many concessions, and the 3 issues are those 3 I mentioned. Plus all the retaliatory violence from palestine has been statedly due to one of those 3 issues.

Plus MOST of the violence, is actually those 3 issues, Isreal enforcing the blockaid, the occupation, and the settlements.

The United states has blocked any peace process, by allowind those things to continue, and every ceasefire thats been around has almost always been broken by Isreal (who see it as a chance to crack down).

A big nogotiating table is only usefull if both parties are interested in peace, right now it seams the ISreali government and the US government is not.

[Viet Minh]

Let me be devil's advocate here; how about the UN invades, and confiscates weapons from everybody, re-estblishes the legal border, positioning troops right the way along to stop further attacks from either side, and withdraws funding from both sides, instead bringing in food, clothes etc as needed by the civilians.

[RGacky3]

logistically impossible.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I agree, the UN is a hollow body that only has teeth when it suits a large powers interests. There really is only one force in the world that could cause Israel to do something it doesn't want to, the US.