Why do people think the Bolshevik Revolution was a conspiray.

[Rafiq]

I met some guy today, sais that there is a good amount of evidence that:

The International Bank funded the Bolsheviks, especially Lenin, along with Germany, to overthrow the Tsar and allow them to 'Rape Russia of it's Recourses' because they wanted Russia's resources, and Tsar did not allow them to take the recources.

But they created a monster and Stalin did not listen to them, and told them to fuck off, so they created Nazi Germany to slay the beast that they created.

Why do people believe that? Is there any good amount of evidence for this?

[Sir Comradical]

Yes, because the best way for the capitalists to reduce a nation to a smorgasbord of cheap labour and resources is to finance a socialist revolution - the ultimate aim of which is to eliminate capitalist social relations in its entirety. Makes perfect sense.

[Black Sheep]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
i lol'd.

Damn you cappies and your imagination.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Is there any good amount of evidence for this?

so.fucking.much.

[nuisance]

It obviously was.

[Widerstand]

Lenin and a couple of other revolutionaries were "funded" by Germany to keep Russia out of WW1. That's pretty much fact. The train that took Lenin to Russia was organized by Germany.

[Omsk]

Good thing Russia had so much sucess in ww1 in pushing the German's back.
Oh wait..

[Nolan]

It's old nazi propaganda that should receive the same ridicule as Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

[Widerstand]

It's old nazi propaganda that should receive the same ridicule as Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

There's Nazi propaganda saying that the Nazis were "created" by the same people that "created" the Soviet Union? I'm intrigued, tell me more :lol:

Also, we had this same thread not so long ago:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/lenin-germanys-sidei-t149368/index.html?t=149368

[Nolan]

There's Nazi propaganda saying that the Nazis were "created" by the same people that "created" the Soviet Union? I'm intrigued, tell me more :lol:

Also, we had this same thread not so long ago:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/lenin-germanys-sidei-t149368/index.html?t=149368

Fuck off. The idea that the Bolsheviks were financed by big bankers or whatever was popularized by the nazis. It was later expanded to the nazis themselves, ironically...

Well other than PEOZ.

[Widerstand]

Fuck off.

Funny that you get so emotional about this.


The idea that the Bolsheviks were financed by big bankers or whatever was popularized by the nazis. It was later expanded to the nazis themselves, ironically...

That may be, but I doubt you can refute that Germany organized Lenin's return to Russia.

[Nolan]

Funny that you get so emotional about this.

Funny that you say that about a comment on the internet.


That may be, but I doubt you can refute that Germany organized Lenin's return to Russia.Why would I? That the interests of the Russia working class which contradicted that of the Russian state fit in with the German's interests is little more than a coincidence.

And what does this have to do with antisemitic conspiracy theories about the Bolsheviks?

[Omsk]

Germany had no interest in getting Russia out of the war (at least getting it's army out of the conflict),economically Russia was devastated. 8,000,000,000 rubles in war debts were outstanding, strangling the national economy of its breath. Inflation soared; the gold reserves (then backing the currency) were nearly empty, revenues were exceedingly low while reconstruction costs were huge. Russia was on the verge of complete collapse.Not to mention the horrible casualties,it is estimated that more than 2 milion russian soliders died.And who know's how much were wounded.

[Lyev]

Funny that you say that about a comment on the internet.

Why would I? That the interests of the Russia working class which contradicted that of the Russian state fit in with the German's interests is little more than a coincidence.

And what does this have to do with antisemitic conspiracy theories about the Bolsheviks?Actually there is substantial evidence that at least one big-business philanthropist kind of guy funded the Bolsheviks, though I cannot remember his name. I think the user '9' mentioned it some while ago. Having said that, yes, most folks will concede that this notion of wall street somehow funding Russian revolutionaries is a product of the cold war and anti-communist fear.

As regards the original OP, to my understanding, there are two main schools of historian that examine the Russian revolution. Firstly, the totalitarian school, who mostly regard October and the events surrounding it as a coup, I think - the work of these historians needs to be contextualised within the dynamic of the cold war. Secondly, there are the more recent revisionists (Fitzpatrick and Rabinowitch are both examples). These guys reassessed 1917, concluding that it was, indeed, a popular revolution and that the Bolsheviks were by no means evil despots or whatever.

[Nolan]

Actually there is substantial evidence that at least one big-business philanthropist kind of guy funded the Bolsheviks, though I cannot remember his name. I think the user '9' mentioned it some while ago. Having said that, yes, most folks will concede that this notion of wall street somehow funding Russian revolutionaries is a product of the cold war and anti-communist fear.

As regards the original OP, to my understanding, there are two main schools of historian that examine the Russian revolution. Firstly, the totalitarian school, who mostly regard October and the events surrounding it as a coup, I think - the work of these historians needs to be contextualised within the dynamic of the cold war. Secondly, there are the more recent revisionists (Fitzpatrick and Rabinowitch are both examples). These guys reassessed 1917, concluding that it was, indeed, a popular revolution and that the Bolsheviks were by no means evil despots or whatever.


Armand Hammer. He was Jewish and his father was a socialist. He was friends with both Lenin and Reagan, or so they say.

[Dave B]

On the German train story, there is an interesting account of it in Abramovitch’s book on the Russian revolution.

On the outbreak of the Russian Revolution many of the Russian intellectual revolutionaries were emigrees’s in Switzerland, including Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, SR’s and Anarchists; and obviously they all wanted to all get back.

Including Abramovitch.

They collectively set up a committee to try and arrange it on the understanding agreed by all that none of them would make separate arrangements or act outside that understanding.


Needless to say the Bolsheviks broke that agreement and went first.


On the Bolshevik’s receiving German government gold; that is in fact an old story recently given legs in Pipes’ book.


At the time it was fairly well known, and in my opinion may have had in fact some influence on how events played out and the actions of the Bolsheviks.

The French intelligence agency had found out about it and had informed the provisional government of Kerensky I think, and they began a further investigation and were compiling a dossier on it in order to prosecute the ‘Bolsheviks’ or Bolsheviks for treason.


Apart from the possibility of being ‘strung up’; there was also still a considerable amount of anti German feeling circulating around, across the whole political spectrum and it was potentially damaging for them.

Apparently it was at the time a fairly open secret, and Abramovitch mentions it casually in an almost matter of fact way.

As had apparently Bernstien earlier, as discussed by Max Shachtman in 1950;


http://www.marxists.org/archive/shachtma/1950/03/shub.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/shachtma/1950/03/shub.htm)


One can’t help wondering whether or not Lenin’s pre-occupation with seizing power and abolishing the constituent assembly was to some extent motivated by obviating the political fallout of all that coming out into the open in a government not controlled by themselves.

I think some capitalists with oil interests in America supported the Bolsheviks but after the revolution but with transparently pecuniary interests regarding concessions and "surplus profit" in the oil fields.

..

[ComradeOm]

The International Bank funded the Bolsheviks, especially Lenin, along with Germany, to overthrow the Tsar and allow them to 'Rape Russia of it's Recourses' because they wanted Russia's resources, and Tsar did not allow them to take the recources. And what exactly was this "International Bank"? Perhaps your friend means "international bankers"? Or "international Jewish bankers"...?


That may be, but I doubt you can refute that Germany organized Lenin's return to Russia.The inference being that Lenin was a German agent because he was provided with a German train. Are you going to suggest that the 31 other revolutionaries on the first train and the 257 passengers (including Martov and friends) on the second train were also German agents? And what of Trotsky, perhaps he was in the pay of the perfidious Danes?


On the German train story, there is an interesting account of it in Abramovitch’s book on the Russian revolution.

On the outbreak of the Russian Revolution many of the Russian intellectual revolutionaries were emigrees’s in Switzerland, including Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, SR’s and Anarchists; and obviously they all wanted to all get back.

Including Abramovitch.

They collectively set up a committee to try and arrange it on the understanding agreed by all that none of them would make separate arrangements or act outside that understanding.


Needless to say the Bolsheviks broke that agreement and went first.Hmmm? The arrangement was that no journey would be made until the Provisional Government sanctioned it. However this quickly became redundant when Milyukov flatly decreed that not only would Petrograd not agree to this agreement but that any Russian citizens travelling across Germany would face legal action. At which point Lenin and a number of other revolutionaries (including at least one Bundist) decided to return anyways. Martov and co followed a month later with the exact same arrangement


The French intelligence agency had found out about it and had informed the provisional government of Kerensky I think, and they began a further investigation and were compiling a dossier on it in order to prosecute the ‘Bolsheviks’ or Bolsheviks for treason. This document was cobbled together by Tsarist (technically ex-Tsarist) counterespionage agents during the July Days ("investigation", hah!) and based on little but lies and slander. It purported to show not only that the Bolsheviks were receiving funds from Germany (as was an open secret even then) but that that Lenin was acting on the express orders and directives of Berlin. The latter was a complete falsification. The purpose of this exercise was to discredit the Bolsheviks at a critical moment by convincing the neutral garrison formations in the capital to come over to the government's side. It also provided an excuse for the repressive measures that the Kerensky regime was about to unleash. It is disappointing to see the same nonsense circulated by supposed socialists almost a century later

[Amphictyonis]

Where's Bakunin when you need him?

[Widerstand]

The inference being that Lenin was a German agent because he was provided with a German train. Are you going to suggest that the 31 other revolutionaries on the first train and the 257 passengers (including Martov and friends) on the second train were also German agents? And what of Trotsky, perhaps he was in the pay of the perfidious Danes

When did I ever make such a claim?:confused:

[chegitz guevara]

Germany had no interest in getting Russia out of the war (at least getting it's army out of the conflict),economically Russia was devastated. 8,000,000,000 rubles in war debts were outstanding, strangling the national economy of its breath. Inflation soared; the gold reserves (then backing the currency) were nearly empty, revenues were exceedingly low while reconstruction costs were huge. Russia was on the verge of complete collapse.Not to mention the horrible casualties,it is estimated that more than 2 milion russian soliders died.And who know's how much were wounded.

At the beginning of 1917, Russia was still very much in the war and a threat to the German war effort. There were a couple of especially competent generals who were managing to make life difficult for the Austrians, which Germany could ill afford to see collapse.

It was the Summer Offensive which ended Russia's threat to the Central Powers, and in the space of a few weeks, led to the deaths of nearly a million Russian soldiers. When Germany was arranging to send Russia's revolutionaries home, they had no way of knowing Russia was about to commit national suicide a few months later.

[Dave B]

There has been an article in the UK independent on it;


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/up-telescope-search-begins-for-giant-new-planet-2213119.html# (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/up-telescope-search-begins-for-giant-new-planet-2213119.html)


complete with a helpful diagram;

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00555/tyche3_555342a.pdf (http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00555/tyche3_555342a.pdf)

The Vatican it would seem is particularly interested in this kind of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope)

Their number one guy gave a lecture in Manchester last year for either the Manchester astronomical society or the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society, I attend both so can’t remember which.
He is;

http://www.vaticanobservatory.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85:brother-guy&catid=60:personnel-and-research&Itemid=83 (http://www.vaticanobservatory.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85:brother-guy&catid=60:personnel-and-research&Itemid=83)

Probably secretly interested in the prophecy in Matthew 24;29 about the planets being driven off their courses, depending upon interpretation, which would require a large disruptive force entering the solar system.

I seem to remember that he mentioned theories as to a large gas giant existing a long way out and potentially on a highly elliptical orbit.

He knew his stuff I have to say and was a really entertaining speaker, I had never been to a lecture by a Jesuit before that.


I think this has gone into the wrong thread

[Rafiq]

Lolwut

[Dave B]

Sorry about the previous mistake!

Back on subject.


The following is from Bernstien allegedly, probably from his article called 'The Shady Story';




"From absolutely reliable sources I have now ascertained that the sum was very large, an almost unbelievable amount, certainly more than fifty million goldmarks, a sum about the source of which Lenin and his comrades could be in no doubt. One result of all this was the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. General Hoffmann, who negotiated with Trotsky and other members of the Bolshevik delegation at Brest, held the Bolsheviks in his hand in two senses and he made sure they felt it."




And allegedly;


On December 3d, 1917 the German Minister of Foreign Affairs, Richard Kühlmann, submitted the following confidential report:



"The disruption of the Entente and the subsequent creation of political combinations agreeable to us constitute the most important aim of our diplomacy. Russia appeared to be the weakest link in the enemy chain. The task therefore was to loosen it, and, when possible, to remove it. This was the purpose of the subversive activity we caused to be carried out in Russia behind the front in the first place promotion of separatist tendencies and support of the Bolsheviks.


It was not until the Bolsheviks had received from us a steady flow of funds through various channels and under different labels that they were able to build up their main organ, Pravda, to conduct energetic propaganda and appreciably to extend the originally narrow basis of their party . . . It is entirely in our interest that we should exploit the period while they are in power, which may be a short one, in order to attain firstly an armistice and then, if possible, peace. The conclusion of a separate peace would mean the achievement of the desired war aim, namely a breach between Russia and her allies."





Winston S. Churchill The World Crisis, Volume five.





"In the middle of April [1917] the Germans took a sombre decision. Ludendorff refers to it with bated breath. Full allowance must be made for the desperate stakes to which the German war leaders were already committed. They were in the mood which had opened unlimited submarine warfare with the certainty of bringing the United States into the war against them.

Upon the Western front they had from the beginning used the most terrible means of offense at their disposal. They had employed poison gas on the largest scale and had invented the ?Flammenwerfer.? Nevertheless it was with a sense of awe that they turned upon Russia the most grisly of all weapons. They transported Lenin in a sealed truck like a plague bacillus from Switzerland into Russia."



That is interesting because around 1922 I think Radek wrote an article for a French communist paper called La humantie, or something, called something like "How the Bolshevik Bacillus Was discovered By General Ludendorf"

The 'confession' being that the Germans had sent a plague into Russia for their own interests, although Radek denied the German Gold story.



It was reprinted I think in the Western capitalist press around the same time along with the German Gold funding the Bolsheviks stories.


Not that it is controversial that the Bolsheviks were being accused of it early on, however there is a reference to it from Lenin himself in 1917;




The Cadet Party had been systematically, relentlessly and continuously demanding repressive measures against the Bolsheviks long before Alexinsky and Co. in June and July invented and fabricated the foully slanderous charge that the Bolsheviks were German spies or were receiving German money,


http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/CI17.html (http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/CI17.html)

And one has to be careful about this kind of thing as there is some crap no doubt circualting around over it, but there is a lot of smoke for sure.

Bernstien, git that he was, would however have been in a position to know about it.

[chegitz guevara]

It's well known that Parvus arranged a considerable sum of money for the Bolsheviks from the Germans. Both were operating under the principle of enemy of my enemy. There was no quid pro quo. Almost immediately after sweeping aside the Provisional government, the Bolsheviks began very energetic propaganda among the Central Powers soldiers. Almost a year to the date after the Bolsheviks came to power, the Central Powers were overthrow in a series of revolutions, and world socialist revolution was on the agenda.

I'll make any such deal with the capitalists any day if a year later I'm in the process of overthrowing their gullible asses.

It should also be kept in mind that the Bolsheviks were in absolutely NO position to continue the war. Neither was the provisional government. The army had completely disintegrated. The alternative to signing Brest-Litovsk was German troops occupying Petrograd. This situation came about not because of the October Revolution, but because the Allies had pushed Kerensky into the suicidal Summer Offensive. That act spelled the end of the Provisional Government and led to Brest-Litovsk.

[Dave B]

There are several issues involved in this, I am not really suggesting that the Bolsheviks were being paid to do exactly want the German capitalist class wanted them to do.

They were merely using each other for their own ends.

But the Bolsheviks or Lenin denied at the time that they were receiving money from the Germans, describing it as a foul slander, unable to admit it presumably because of the national chauvinism, ‘stupidity’ and lack of consciousness of their proletarian following.

The Bolsheviks, as the vanguard and the educators, knew best, and what the working class needed to know and what they shouldn’t know about etc etc.


In fact as far as lying to the working class is concerned, it is part of Leninist theory.


It does have some impact on an understanding of the historical events. Lenin wasn’t just on the run and in hiding from eg June to October because of accusations of an attempted coup.

There was effectively an arrest warrant out for him for ‘treason’ and he was wanted for ‘questioning’.

I am really not sure if the following is true but allegedly in November 1918 Lenin sort of admitted that they had taken German money in a statement in a CEC meeting where he said in something like.

"so what if we used German money for the Russian revolution, now we will use Russian money for the German revolution"

It is not in the internet archive



And whether or not Lenin’s famous April thesis, that even took the rest of the party by surprise, was more for the second instalment from his paymasters in Berlin.

,

[chegitz guevara]

Can you show me where in Leninist theory lying to the working class is written down?

Lenin was in hiding not because of the money, but because the workers tried to overthrow the Provisional government before it was possible. The Bolsheviks opposed the uprising, but once it started, they backed them all the way.

And what kind of revolutionary gives other revolutionaries shit for tricking the capitalists into funding a revolution? Are you really that stupid?

[Dave B]

And what kind of revolutionary gives other revolutionaries shit for tricking the capitalists into funding a revolution? Are you really that stupid?


Well hang on a minute the bolsheviks and Leninist denied it.

As I have given several examples of in this thread ie Lenin who described it as a foul slander and Shactman in 1950.


As well as ComradeOm who said I think it was lies from the Tsarist agents or whatever.


Actually I think as to giving other revolutionaries "shit for tricking the capitalists into funding a revolution" is merely an inference from what I have said; people are free to make up their own minds.

If they were doing it and informed the working class about it, that would be another matter and discussion, but they didn’t and were tricking the working class weren’t they?

There was a sort of similar issue recently wasn’t there as regards the British SWP receiving dirty money from capitalists, money that Galloway turned down.

There was something coincidentally enough on our forum this month on the Leninist theory of trickery, and I think Lenin used that exact word in the un-sanitised version of Leftwing Communism and Infantile Disorder thing.

I can probably dig it out if required.

As a student of Lenin and the Russian revolution I am trying to make sense of the theoretical quantum shift in practice from April 1917.


Some would argue ie the Mensheviks that Lenin was power mad to start of with, hence their insistence, when arguing against the Mensheviks, of taking a "leading role" in any provisional government.

I am actually giving credence to Lenin’s respect for Marxist theory in wondering why they behaved the way ‘they’ did.

Lenin saving his neck in a trial under a government not under his control would be an understandable reason enough. Especially if guilty.



The communists threatened to sue Bernstien in Germany, when he wrote his article in 1921, I think.

He responded by inviting them to do so and ‘bring it on’, they declined.

I would be against the SPGB taking capitalist money even if we should be so lucky to be offered it.




.

[ComradeOm]

As well as ComradeOm who said I think it was lies from the Tsarist agents or whateverYes, the dossiers purporting to show that Lenin was a German agent (ie, acting on orders from Berlin) were fabricated by ex-Tsarist agents and exploited for political purposes by Kerensky

[Omsk]

Yes, the dossiers purporting to show that Lenin was a German agent (ie, acting on orders from Berlin) were fabricated by ex-Tsarist agents and exploited for political purposes by Kerensky
The White Guard was known for its influence in the civil war era and the times after that,they were everywere,especially in Germany,they routed like mice before the tigers.:)
Although,it seem's that their propaganda stayed.(and spread,it seems) :(

[Dave B]

Re: Is it time to bury Lenin(ism)?




Hi all, esp Alan

The original pamphlet is here:

http://ia700109.us.archive.org/16/items/ShouldCommunistsParticipateInReactionary\
TradeUnions/221058.pdf (http://ia700109.us.archive.org/16/items/ShouldCommunistsParticipateInReactionaryTradeUnion s/221058.pdf)

On page 13, under the heading, "Communists Must be Tactful", it reads:


"There is no doubt but that the opportunist leaders of the unions will resort to all the dirty tricks of bourgeois diplomacy, invoking the help of the capitalist governments, priests, police, judges, etc. in order to prevent the communists from penetrating into the trade-unions, to force them out of the unions, to make their work within the unions as dangerous as possible, aiding the police to persecute and run them down. But we must be able to withstand all that, to be ready for any and every sacrifice, and even if necessary, to practice trickery, to employ cunning, and to resort to illegal methods, to sometimes even overlook or conceal the truth,—all for the sake of penetrating into the trade-unions, to stay there and by every and all means carry on the work of COMMUNISM."


Now you can hit them with the original source instead of the quote in the Standard, which they're just going to ignore.



http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/46212 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/46212)

[Zeus the Moose]

Can you show me where in Leninist theory lying to the working class is written down?

It's in What Is To Be Done?, obviously ;)

[chegitz guevara]

Re: Is it time to bury Lenin(ism)?

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/46212 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/46212)

Okay, so Lenin says it's okay to lie to opportunist union bureaucrats in order to be able to be in the union to talk about communist politics with workers. Where does he say it's okay to lie to the workers?

Would you also consider it lying to or deceiving the working class if a strike planning committee didn't tell the whole world what it was planning before the strike? Cuz it sure seems like you would. Let's tell the enemy everything so we can't be accused of lying to the workers. It's petty-bourgeois nonsense to think that workers and their organizations aren't allowed to keep secrets from the enemy.