Funny Tale

[Nobody]

I volunteer at a local aquarium and was talking to a guest about huge turtle (35-40 feet across) that lived 50 million years ago. He told me that was debatable (to which I though oh no), and proceded to lunch into a triade about the world being around for 3000 years ago. I tried just to blow him off with a "that's your opinion", but no. He asked me what I thought, so I give the good scientific anwser of serveral billion years old. He asked why I did not believe his theory about god and all that malarky and I replied well if god exists he's done a great job of setting up lots of edivence that would run counter to these "theories". To this he called my a godless-pinko communist. Of course I proundly announced that I was a godless pinko communist, which he then relied to my instructor. Thank God it was my last day.

PS He was wearing a shirt that had a message nailed to it that said "Back soon, going to fix up the place for you guys. Jesus"

Jesus H. Christ!!!!!!!!

[caliban]

try talking to the ones that change their theory as you tell them yours. I call them evolutionary christians. they change the story of the bible to fit the evolving FACTS of science. You can't shut them up, it's cruel to kill them, and too funny to ignore. It's funny but the only people to ever give me shit about being athiest are the all loving and caring, children of god(christians). My solution.....laugh at them, it really pisses them off. :lol:

[Nobody]

What pisses my off the most is I DID NOT WANT TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT. It was clear he wanted to win a soul for god. I was not trying to educate him about communism. Why can't people keep their faith to themselves? It's fucking annoying.

[caliban]

The thing that truely confuses me is that as an athiest l see them all as the same. They all believe in A GOD!!! Fuck the name, they all pray to a god of one form or another. I really don't care who you pray to as a spiritual person, but those that pray worry about if they are praying to the right god. I see them all as human beings that pray, all l ask in return is that l am seen as a person that doesn't. Bottom line.....WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS FOR FUCK SAKE!!!!!!!! Just my humble opinion. :)

[Dark Capitalist]

Was he a Baptist?

[Rastafari]

Reminds me of the book I'm reading, "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer.


Goddam Mormons, the only religious group I won't tolerate. I mean, even Muslims are known for their tolerance (Suleiman the Magnificent esp.)

[(*]

I hate it when people try and convert me!

At work, a customer will coax you into a conversation about nature or something. Then BOOM!
This one dude actually gave me a book about the Bible in comparison to other religious texts (It had cartoon pictures and everything) :lol:

[Babylon5 Crusade]

Not all Christians are like that. Im one, and I believe in evolution.

[elijahcraig]

I turned one of my best friends into an Atheist (TURNED! Like he has no mind of his own), and his father got pissed off. He said I was “turnin’ his boy into a communist nazi satanist atheist” and that I was “sendin’ his boy to hell.” (!) Ha!

[Urban Rubble]

Is that Joe McCarthy on your avatar Babylon ? Ya, that's real Christian.

Most sensible Chrisitans will tell you that God simply set the process of evolution in order.

[Babylon5 Crusade]

McCarthy was an American hero.


I believe God created the big bang. Then he sent evolution on its own.

[elijahcraig]

McCarthy was a power-hungry right-wing idiot; but we also consider Vietnam Veterans "heroes". So...


Where do you get the belief that god did those things? There is absolutely no reason or logic to it.

[Babylon5 Crusade]

Then tell be how the big bang was created?

[elijahcraig]

No, you show me that a god DID create it. Otherwise, it is useless to debate and idea of the absolute god, etc.

[Babylon5 Crusade]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:23 AM
No, you show me that a god DID create it. Otherwise, it is useless to debate and idea of the absolute god, etc.
We dont know. A snap of a finger? I can bet you dont know what caused the Big Bang ether.

[elijahcraig]

What are you 12? The Big Bang Theory is very well explained.

Here's a link for beginners:

Hey Hey With the Monkees! (http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm)


Here is a good quote from someone off of another board on "infinity", using the "uneatable hotdog" example:

"No such hot dog exists, and neither does God. Infinity is an abstract conception of the relation between space and time. Time is the conception of the movement within space. Movement within space is limited to all beings finite (for space cannot be transcended, and no infinity is harbored within space for it presupposes temporality of the substances within it [nature]). Thus infinity is not a true applicable concept. "

[Babylon5 Crusade]

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang.

Yah an explosion! What created the explosion?

[elijahcraig]

Bading (http://superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo4.html)




Think of the Children! (http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html)

[Babylon5 Crusade]

There still theroies. 1. it was a war between Anti-Matter and Matter.

[elijahcraig]

blah blah blah, you've been beaten.

[Babylon5 Crusade]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:47 AM
blah blah blah, you've been beaten.
Acullaly no one won yet.

[elijahcraig]

Yes, I won.

You lost. Miserably.

Unless you have an analysis of the quote I provided, or anthing else I posted links to.,

[Babylon5 Crusade]

No one knows how the universe was really created. Its all theories right now. So no one won yet.

[elijahcraig]

Yes, I won.

You lost.

Do you have anything to say about the quote, or do you agree?

[Babylon5 Crusade]

No one can win this yet.

The answer officaly is "We dont know."

So just stop being a sore loser. And declaire a draw.

[elijahcraig]

What a fucking backpeddler.

You have lost. Pure and simple.

[White_Knight]

WE have already won, as God is on our side. Join us.

[Babylon5 Crusade]

Arg, this will go forever! Good night!

[BuyOurEverything]

The answer officaly is "We dont know."
You admit you don't know how the universe started so why would you automatically just to the conclusion that god did it?

[elijahcraig]

I've already posted links explaining the big bang, how it came around, and what came before it. This moron simply calls anything he does not know "god". He would have been calling gravity "god" a few hundred years ago.

[White_Knight]

All I need is faith, and I have it in abundance. Jesus died for you, he's going to reccomend you to that spirit in the sky when you die. You should accept him into your heart so that you can be on the side of good.

[elijahcraig]

You sir are a moron.

[Indysocialist]

What the hell is that shit man? It's like these kids are going on the basis that God exists and we'll have the cute little Commie try to prove us wrong. And Elijah did a hell of a job of it. Just remember who has home court advantage here.
Anyways, proof Elijah won:
He posted links
He stuck to his argument, he had to change to, "Well okay, let's all win and feel better!" (I wish there was an emoticon for jerk offs)
And then this White Knight guy (Hmmmm, Knight like say the Grand Dragon perhaps?) jumps in with this, "ALL I NEED IS FAITH! I DON'T NEED THIS SHIT! I GOT JESUS!"

Elijah won.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Brainwave just in:
The universe is infinite because it contains everything, including God
So if the universe contains everything, that means nothing, not even empty space, existed before it, and God would have to exist before the universe in order to have created it.
So therefore the universe came first.
So therefore God did not create the Universe, absolutely nothing created the Universe!

:ph34r:

[suffianr]

It's not a case of winning or losing. Besides, he's partly right about theories being just theories. You never know, humankind might come up with a more accurate theory 100 years from now that negates contemporary ideas.

Think about it, the double helix structure of DNA was discovered only about 50 years ago, we still don't know why or how the dinosaurs perished, and we can't explain a whole load of other shit for that matter. But we will, someday. We'll find know all about it. It's only a matter of time.

[Nobody]

Score Elijahcraig 1 Babble-on 0

[Loknar]

Elijah, you have not beaten Babylon5 Crusade, in fact your arguments are based only on theory and opinion just as much as Babylon5 Crusade is basing his argument on opinion and theory. No matter what we prove we cant disprove if there is a God or not.

And if you want to get into it, our mitochondrial evidence points to being created from 1 woman.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

In reply to the initial argument, I, too am guilty of trying to manipulate discussions to my advantage just so that I can make a point about communism, even if the discsussion is about something completely unrelated, I will try to make it into a political discussion. This really pisses people off.

On the existance of god, I think that there is nothing more stupid than believing in "god" because you can't come up with a logical explanation. There is no evidence that anything like "god" exists., so why would would you believe in it just because people say that it's true? You christians have been indoctrinated and I hope that some day it will be considered punishable child abuse to teach these misguiding notions as if they were facts.

[Loknar]

Victorcommie

The wind is here is it not? You cant see it, but you hear it and feel it.

[Loknar]

McCarthy was just great, he accused some people wrongly though. However at the time his actions were necessary, as I see in this forum, you Commies are treacherous, he did the right thing, I would have done the same thing in his place.

And I doubt a Cappie could operate in the Soviet Union like a Commie could operate in America. Don’t push our generosity.

[elijahcraig]

Brainwave just in:
The universe is infinite because it contains everything, including God

I’ve already shown infinity as an abstract concept with no foundation.


So if the universe contains everything, that means nothing, not even empty space, existed before it, and God would have to exist before the universe in order to have created it.

No.


So therefore the universe came first.

…from the big bang.


So therefore God did not create the Universe, absolutely nothing created the Universe!

Enough outta you Gorgias!

I’ve already put this to rest. You have lost as well.




Elijah, you have not beaten Babylon5 Crusade, in fact your arguments are based only on theory and opinion just as much as Babylon5 Crusade is basing his argument on opinion and theory. No matter what we prove we cant disprove if there is a God or not.

Can you DISPROVE that I may turn into a large pink flying elephant in the next seven to ten minutes?


And if you want to get into it, our mitochondrial evidence points to being created from 1 woman.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

“Our”? We aren’t talking human origins Loknar, we are referring to the big bang and the source of all matter.

[Loknar]

You're right Elijah, I apologize.

About the Big Bang, are you saying that something came from nothing

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 09:04 AM
Don’t push our generosity.
or else?



What good is freedom if it can be taken away so easily?

[Nobody]

No all amtter came from an impossibly small, but impossibly packed piece of matter.

I think.

[elijahcraig]

I have to wonder if any of you even read my links, I have posted an answer to that question already.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I’ve already shown infinity as an abstract concept with no foundation.

Not true. There is nothing beyond all the matter in the universe, so the universe therefore curves into itself, producing infinity because no matter how far you go you will always be in the universe.


So if the universe contains everything, that means nothing, not even empty space, existed before it, and God would have to exist before the universe in order to have created it.

No.

Explain how this is wrong.


So therefore the universe came first.

…from the big bang.

Can't argue with that, but what caused the big bang?


So therefore God did not create the Universe, absolutely nothing created the Universe!

Enough outta you Gorgias!

What? When I say here, 'absolutely nothing created the universe' I mean 'the fact that there was absolutely nothing there caused something, namely the universe, to exist via the big bang.' Nature hates a vacuum. I ain't one of those 'steady state' universe kind of people.

I’ve already put this to rest. You have lost as well.

I ain't dead yet captain.

[Loknar]

How did the matter that created the universe come into existence? Everything has a beginning.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:34 AM
I turned one of my best friends into an Atheist (TURNED! Like he has no mind of his own), and his father got pissed off. He said I was “turnin’ his boy into a communist nazi satanist atheist” and that I was “sendin’ his boy to hell.” (!) Ha!
TURNED! Like he has no mind of his own

LOL who does that remind you of?

Loknar, you and your arguments are, bullshit, but I have to go now, but I promise to destroy your arguments later.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 03:35 PM
Loknar, you and your arguments are, bullshit, but I have to go now, but I promise to destroy your arguments later.
Well very articulate post.

In your mind my "arguments" may be bullshit but you don’t have to be rude. Debate me, or are you too insecure with your own briefs to do so in a respective manner?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Loknar+Sep 11 2003, 09:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Loknar @ Sep 11 2003, 09:01 PM)
[email protected] 11 2003, 03:35 PM
Loknar, you and your arguments are, bullshit, but I have to go now, but I promise to destroy your arguments later.
Well very articulate post.

In your mind my "arguments" may be bullshit but you don’t have to be rude. Debate me, or are you too insecure with your own briefs to do so in a respective manner? [/b]
I give respect to those who earn repect, you earn contempt and thats what you get.

The simple argument which goes against gods existance, is that if god created the universe then who created god?

The usual answer is god exists outside space and time, blah blah. Utter Rubbish, who is to say that the big bang did not occur outside space and time, and caused a chain reaction which created the conventional view of the big bang?

Also just because I do not understand the creation of the univers does not mean that I have to create foolish daydreams to explain them. Who is to say that the universe was not created by a pink horse with yellow spots, which is equily feasable as the existance of god.

The eixistance of god and the creation of the universe was portrayed in the bible, which has been proved to be a lie, so why should I believe all the other crap which comes from that piece of fiction? God also cannot be omnipitant, if he was all powerful, he would create perfection, the universe is not perfect, so it is therefor not a gods work.

Religion is mearly the ignorant attempting to explain what they fail to understand, and I for one am not taken in by the foolish and pointless arguments they put forward. I refuse to put faith into an inanimate piece of sky or whatever, just because if fail to understand the physics of the universe and its creation.


Bible bullshit.

[Loknar]

I don’t know how I have earned your contempt.


How has the Bible been proven to be a lie? So much that is in the Bible has come true or has been proven by science.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 09:55 PM
I don’t know how I have earned your contempt.


How has the Bible been proven to be a lie? So much that is in the Bible has come true or has been proven by science.
Yes such as the world being created 3000 years ago and man being made within the same week as the rest of the earth... Or are fossils and carbon dating gods little joke?

You have just earned more contempt.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Enigma+Sep 11 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Sep 11 2003, 09:05 PM)
[email protected] 11 2003, 09:55 PM
I don’t know how I have earned your contempt.


How has the Bible been proven to be a lie? So much that is in the Bible has come true or has been proven by science.
Yes such as the world being created 3000 years ago and man being made within the same week as the rest of the earth... Or are fossils and carbon dating gods little joke?

You have just earned more contempt. [/b]
The Bible has never made such a claim. Using Bible chronology it is estimated that humanity is 5000 or 6000 years old. The planet it self is around 3.4 billion years old if I remember correctly.

The "days" don’t have to be a 24 hour period.

[Dirty Commie]

Who ever first declared the existance of god must have been the village idiot.

Why is it that every time people can&#39;t explain something off the top of their head it is declared an act of god?

How could some one so be so fucking dumb to say that when you die you have something called a soul that goes to a paradise in the clouds, or a fiery underworld of torture?

Or to beleive that their non-existant leader is the only true one, and that all others who don&#39;t follow their irrelevent dogma is going to hell?

How the fuck could a human who has been evolving for millions of years and thus far is at the peak of the primate family beleive this utter shit? :redstar2000:

[(*]

The Bible has changed. It is not in its original form.

[elijahcraig]

Not true. There is nothing beyond all the matter in the universe, so the universe therefore curves into itself, producing infinity because no matter how far you go you will always be in the universe.

There was no time before the big bang, therefore there is no “before”. Infinity does not and cannot exist.


Can&#39;t argue with that, but what caused the big bang?

Ever studied Quantum mechanics little buddy? Things happen chaotically, without explanation; without “cause and effect”. The big bang occurred when there was no such thing as time. Time and Space manifested through it.


How did the matter that created the universe come into existence? Everything has a beginning.

Go read the link I posted on “Before the Big Bang” and “What Came Before the Big Bang.”


who is to say that the big bang did not occur outside space and time, and caused a chain reaction which created the conventional view of the big bang?

It in fact did occur “outside of space and time,” and those things came into “existence” through the event.


The "days" don’t have to be a 24 hour period.

Good god. That’s just pathetic. Puke.

[Jesus Christ]

you guys really have to realize something, and dont get me wrong, im an atheist
things such as the Big Bang THEORY and the CONCEPT of God arent proven
you guys are stating your own opinion and trying to tell each other that its true, face it, we&#39;ll probably never know
Some people believe in God, o well, thats their opinion and you cant do anything about it
Some people believe in the Big Bang Theory, o well, thats their opinion and you cant do anything about it
so stop acting so fuckin juvenile and accept it
these are opinions, and until the existence of God is proven or the Big Band Theory is proven to have happened, they will remain opinions
so just stop it, its retarded

[elijahcraig]

It is highly accepted that the Big Bang Theory has in fact been proven. It is called Theoretical Physics, ie carrying things to their absolute logical conclusion.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Loknar+Sep 11 2003, 10:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Loknar @ Sep 11 2003, 10:09 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 09:05 PM

[email protected] 11 2003, 09:55 PM
I don’t know how I have earned your contempt.


How has the Bible been proven to be a lie? So much that is in the Bible has come true or has been proven by science.
Yes such as the world being created 3000 years ago and man being made within the same week as the rest of the earth... Or are fossils and carbon dating gods little joke?

You have just earned more contempt.
The Bible has never made such a claim. Using Bible chronology it is estimated that humanity is 5000 or 6000 years old. The planet it self is around 3.4 billion years old if I remember correctly.

The "days" don’t have to be a 24 hour period. [/b]
Using Bible chronology it is estimated that humanity is 5000 or 6000 years old.

yes whatever, still bullshit.

The "days" don’t have to be a 24 hour period.

Umm actually yes it does, the definition of a day is a full rotation of the earth around its axis, which again shows how the bible is crap... coz he wont have created the moon until the second or third day will he.

Also if a day is equil to a few hundred million years, then why not say so, instead of using a specific piece of terminology relating to a full rotation of the earth around its axis.

Come on you can do better than that.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 04:34 PM
It is highly accepted that the Big Bang Theory has in fact been proven. It is called Theoretical Physics, ie carrying things to their absolute logical conclusion.
yea, its ACCEPTED, that still doesnt mean that it actually happened
once again it boils down to OPINIONS

[elijahcraig]

What do opinions have to do with scientific fact? Is gravity an opinion?

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 09:05 PM
Or are fossils and carbon dating gods little joke?


Of course not... they&#39;re Satan&#39;s little tricks&#33; Science is the devil&#39;s tool&#33; :P

[Invader Zim]

I find it highly Ironic that a few centurys ago it was a sin to say the world was not flat.

A few centuries before that it was a sin to say that the universe did not revolve around the earth... But slowly all religios conseptions are being proved false, what will religious people do when the creation of the universe is proved to not be gods doing?

I hope that great day comes in my life time as I will enjoy laughing at religious nutters.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 04:48 PM
What do opinions have to do with scientific fact? Is gravity an opinion?
are you retarded
the big bang theory IS NOT SCIENTIFIC FACT, THATS WHY ITS A THEORY&#33;
i do believe that the big bang theory happened, but that doesnt make it a fact, and that makes it my opinion

[Loknar]

I know religion is just the greatest mock up of humanity that has ever existed. I personally don’t trust major religions, only a few smaller ones I think highly of. But personally I just believe in God. Have any of you read the Bible? I have read about half of (which is more than most can claim). If we humans listened to it and followed it comp-lately we wouldn’t have our problems and we’d have COMMUNISM&#33; (there are a few cases in the Bible where it advocates Communal like practices) Anyway, everything boils down to opinions, evolution is accepted buy many scientists (however it has been proven that we descended from 1 woman) but it doesn’t mean it has been established as fact. I wont dare say God has been established as fact either (this is where faith comes in). How come science cant explain the paranormal?




yes whatever, still bullshit.


I see we don’t like being corrected.



Umm actually yes it does, the definition of a day is a full rotation of the earth around its axis, which again shows how the bible is crap... coz he wont have created the moon until the second or third day will he.

Also if a day is equil to a few hundred million years, then why not say so, instead of using a specific piece of terminology relating to a full rotation of the earth around its axis


You are talking about our own solar system. How long does it take for our Star to orbit the Galaxy? How long does it take our galaxy to orbit the Universe ( assuming there is a center)? How long does it take Venus, Mars and Jupiter to orbit the son?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Primus32302+Sep 11 2003, 11:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Primus32302 @ Sep 11 2003, 11:06 PM)
[email protected] 11 2003, 04:48 PM
What do opinions have to do with scientific fact? Is gravity an opinion?
are you retarded
the big bang theory IS NOT SCIENTIFIC FACT, THATS WHY ITS A THEORY&#33;
i do believe that the big bang theory happened, but that doesnt make it a fact, and that makes it my opinion [/b]
Yes but graverty is just a theory as well, and I take that as fact, but if I start inexplicable floating around, then I will appologise without delay... But until that happy day, I will defend stephen hawkings on this one.

[elijahcraig]

AK47 and I finally agree.

I think its your new image. :lol:

[Invader Zim]

How come science cant explain the paranormal?

I dont believe in that crap anymore than I believe in the tooth fairy. Uri Gellar has yet to break my spoons.

I see we don’t like being corrected.

3000 years 6ooo years, what differance does it make when the universe has existed for over 3 billion years? Its still just religious bullshit but with a 6 on the beggining rather than a 3.

You are talking about our own solar system. How long does it take for our Star to orbit the Galaxy? How long does it take our galaxy to orbit the Universe ( assuming there is a center)? How long does it take Venus, Mars and Jupiter to orbit the son?

But thats not the definition of a day though, the widly established definition of a day is the Earths one...

However when god created mankind and the earth he just happened to use terminology relevant to a differeant planet, solar system, galaxy etc... what just to confuse us? having a laugh was he... LOL utter crap, if your going to bullshit, please make it feasable.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Enigma+Sep 11 2003, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Sep 11 2003, 05:13 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:06 PM

[email protected] 11 2003, 04:48 PM
What do opinions have to do with scientific fact? Is gravity an opinion?
are you retarded
the big bang theory IS NOT SCIENTIFIC FACT, THATS WHY ITS A THEORY&#33;
i do believe that the big bang theory happened, but that doesnt make it a fact, and that makes it my opinion
Yes but graverty is just a theory as well, and I take that as fact, but if I start inexplicable floating around, then I will appologise without delay... But until that happy day, I will defend stephen hawkings on this one. [/b]
last time i checked, gravity was a law, not a theory, that means it has been proven that gravity exists

[elijahcraig]

You can never prove a theory is 100% true. If it stands up to many different tests, logic, etc., it is eventually accepted.


Not much for science are you "communist"?

[Jesus Christ]

i never said i was a communist ya moron(its a leftist board), and yes, i love science, but i am trying to prove a point thats not getting through youre thick skull

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Primus32302+Sep 11 2003, 11:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Primus32302 @ Sep 11 2003, 11:22 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:06 PM

[email protected] 11 2003, 04:48 PM
What do opinions have to do with scientific fact? Is gravity an opinion?
are you retarded
the big bang theory IS NOT SCIENTIFIC FACT, THATS WHY ITS A THEORY&#33;
i do believe that the big bang theory happened, but that doesnt make it a fact, and that makes it my opinion
Yes but graverty is just a theory as well, and I take that as fact, but if I start inexplicable floating around, then I will appologise without delay... But until that happy day, I will defend stephen hawkings on this one.
last time i checked, gravity was a law, not a theory, that means it has been proven that gravity exists [/b]
Actually no, gravirty has not been proven, it is still just theory, just a highly likley one. Well that is according to my friend who does A-Level physics.

[Jesus Christ]

well, if proven or not its still called a law, and thats enough for me

[elijahcraig]

What would you call Marx&#39;s theory? It is called the "theory" and "law"?

:lol:

[Jesus Christ]

well, its never been achieved, i dunno, maybe you can tell me? :blink:

[elijahcraig]

Achieved? It is an objective law, independent of the will of men. It exists now, it has existed for a LONG LONG time.

[Jesus Christ]

lets keep it within human boundaries
it has never successfully existed

[elijahcraig]

I’m not sure you even know what you are talking about. The law of value is an economic law, it is not communism. And it is in existence right now. You might want to skim through Das Kapital before you make any more of a dumbass out of yourself.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 05:40 PM
What would you call Marx&#39;s theory? It is called the "theory" and "law"?

:lol:
ok, youre just getting off the topic to try and confuse me, and i must say that you did a good job
lets get back to what this says and what we were originally talking about
and now that I know you are talking about the Theory of Value I can answer correctly
Marx&#39;s Theory/Law of Value does exist and is happening right now, yes, i agree
but exactly what does that have to do with scientific theory?
i thought we were discussing the big bang theory, not political sciences

[elijahcraig]

That was originally intended as a joke, a mock of your mixing of the words “theory” and “law”, and picking and choosing which theory to believe based on pure nonsensical standards. But, anyway.

The law of value is a scientific law, it is just like gravity, independent of the will of man. Read Stalin’s (even if you don’t like the man) “Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR”.

I don’t know what you want to talk about in reference to the big bang. I’m not sure many people actually understand the theory.

[Jesus Christ]

well, im glad that this discussion has ended
can we be friends now? :)

[elijahcraig]

No.

[Jesus Christ]

awwww

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 10:21 PM





I dont believe in that crap anymore than I believe in the tooth fairy. Uri Gellar has yet to break my spoons.


ok, so for thousands of years humans have claimed to see and hear weird stuff and it is still ongoing today and somehow it doesn’t exist.




3000 years 6ooo years, what differance does it make when the universe has existed for over 3 billion years? Its still just religious bullshit but with a 6 on the beggining rather than a 3.

Please read very carefully what I wrote.


But thats not the definition of a day though, the widely established definition of a day is the Earths one...

To us it is. But as I said, a day to God can me many thousands of years for all we know.

Prove that God doesn’t exist.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

not again *sigh* are you implying that you are willing to believe in god because we cannot disprove it?? Tell me what evidence have you ever seen that suggests that god does exist.

so for thousands of years humans have claimed to see and hear weird stuff and it is still ongoing today and somehow it doesn’t exist.

Is the fact that some people claim to have heard mysterious voices proof that the bible is true? You, my friend, are an imbecil. I will reject any nonsense of this being&#39;s existance untill i see something that suggests that it exists. Untill then, you keep trying to pull your head out of your ass.

[elijahcraig]

ok, so for thousands of years humans have claimed to see and hear weird stuff and it is still ongoing today and somehow it doesn’t exist.

“Somehow”? HOW?


To us it is. But as I said, a day to God can me many thousands of years for all we know.

What a MORON>


Prove that God doesn’t exist.

My point is ^^^>>>proven.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 12:45 AM



.

not again *sigh* are you implying that you are willing to believe in god because we cannot disprove it?? Tell me what evidence have you ever seen that suggests that god does exist.

Faith.




Is the fact that some people claim to have heard mysterious voices proof that the bible is true? You, my friend, are an imbecil. I will reject any nonsense of this being&#39;s existance untill i see something that suggests that it exists. Untill then, you keep trying to pull your head out of your ass.


I never said that. I am pointing out something that science is yet to explain. How is it that when people have near death experiences they claim to leave their body and look around and see what is happening? There is so much weird unexplainable stuff.

[elijahcraig]

Faith.

ie, a denial of reality.


I never said that. I am pointing out something that science is yet to explain. How is it that when people have near death experiences they claim to leave their body and look around and see what is happening? There is so much weird unexplainable stuff.

So, the unknown necessarily means God to you? You do understand that once gravity was unknown, and people used God to explain what we now use gravity to explain, do you not?

If so, you are pathetically illogical.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Prove that God doesn&#39;t exist

I can&#39;t prove that scientifically, because in science you have to prove positives:
I believe unicorns exist.
Prove it.
I believe God exists.
Prove it&#33;

and gravity is a law, because it can be observed and measured. There may be tons of theories as to how it works, but it still exists. We don&#39;t even know if the Big Bang existed.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 01:37 AM



I dont believe in that crap anymore than I believe in the tooth fairy. Uri Gellar has yet to break my spoons.


ok, so for thousands of years humans have claimed to see and hear weird stuff and it is still ongoing today and somehow it doesn’t exist.




3000 years 6ooo years, what differance does it make when the universe has existed for over 3 billion years? Its still just religious bullshit but with a 6 on the beggining rather than a 3.

Please read very carefully what I wrote.


But thats not the definition of a day though, the widely established definition of a day is the Earths one...

To us it is. But as I said, a day to God can me many thousands of years for all we know.

Prove that God doesn’t exist.
ok, so for thousands of years humans have claimed to see and hear weird stuff and it is still ongoing today and somehow it doesn’t exist.

For thousands of years people have been drinking and taking Hallucinogenic materials, so does it really supprise you that they believe all kinds of bullshit. For god sake, they used to burn women they thought were witches, do you believe in them?

To us it is. But as I said, a day to God can me many thousands of years for all we know.

Ohh yes, god came down from heaven and spoke to his profits and said, he created the earth in 6 days, but just neglected to tell the profit that a day was a few 100 million years, did he forget that we consider a day to be 24 hours, or was he just out to confuse us???

LOL your arguments are pathetic.

Prove that God doesn’t exist.

Prove that I am not a pink dolphin, with fur and cheese cake, at a computer typing this with my fins, while floating 3 inches above the ground.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 08:55 AM

Prove that God doesn’t exist.

Prove that I am not a pink dolphin, with fur and cheese cake, at a computer typing this with my fins, while floating 3 inches above the ground.
Are you?


The basic idea is that nobody can prove that God does not exist. Same as you can&#39;t prove or refute the idea that Santa exists. Because tomorrow or the next day, santa might just show up. We do not know what the future holds for us. Science does not, and has not, proved everything. The arguments on this thread are very circular and pointless.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Loknar+Sep 11 2003, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Loknar @ Sep 11 2003, 08:38 PM)
[email protected] 12 2003, 12:45 AM



.

not again *sigh* are you implying that you are willing to believe in god because we cannot disprove it?? Tell me what evidence have you ever seen that suggests that god does exist.

Faith.




Is the fact that some people claim to have heard mysterious voices proof that the bible is true? You, my friend, are an imbecil. I will reject any nonsense of this being&#39;s existance untill i see something that suggests that it exists. Untill then, you keep trying to pull your head out of your ass.


I never said that. I am pointing out something that science is yet to explain. How is it that when people have near death experiences they claim to leave their body and look around and see what is happening? There is so much weird unexplainable stuff. [/b]
People who had near-death experiences are not trustworthy. They have probably been under the influence of several drugs and were probably also in a coma. I would not trust these people. Are you suggesting that since science cannot explain some things, there must be some explanation. And you believe that this explanation is the bible? Why the bible? Nothing on earth suggests that the bible is true. Nothing suggests that there is a god. So you have heard sickly people say that they experienced spirituality, perhaps spirituality exists, but does this mean that christianity, of all religions, is true? Does this, if spirituality even does exist, prove that there is a god??

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 05:01 PM
People who had near-death experiences are not trustworthy. They have probably been under the influence of several drugs and were probably also in a coma. I would not trust these people. Are you suggesting that since science cannot explain some things, there must be some explanation. And you believe that this explanation is the bible? Why the bible? Nothing on earth suggests that the bible is true. Nothing suggests that there is a god. So you have heard sickly people say that they experienced spirituality, perhaps spirituality exists, but does this mean that christianity, of all religions, is true? Does this, if spirituality even does exist, prove that there is a god??


No, my point is science is not the end all be all.



This conversation is just going around in circles. In truth we all believe what we want to. Evolution still hasn’t been proven, yet you guys believe it, that’s called FAITH.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by (*+Sep 12 2003, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ((* @ Sep 12 2003, 04:24 PM)
[email protected] 12 2003, 08:55 AM

Prove that God doesn’t exist.

Prove that I am not a pink dolphin, with fur and cheese cake, at a computer typing this with my fins, while floating 3 inches above the ground.
Are you?


The basic idea is that nobody can prove that God does not exist. Same as you can&#39;t prove or refute the idea that Santa exists. Because tomorrow or the next day, santa might just show up. We do not know what the future holds for us. Science does not, and has not, proved everything. The arguments on this thread are very circular and pointless. [/b]
Well not last time I checked....

Same as you can&#39;t prove or refute the idea that Santa exists. Because tomorrow or the next day, santa might just show up.

But he wont, because he doesnt exist. Just like God wont strike me down for being a heritic, because he doesnt exist.

The arguments on this thread are very circular and pointless.

But you have still yet too answer them, simply because you cannot, just as we cannot answer some of your arguments

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

No, my point is science is not the end all be all.

i don&#39;t know what this means, lad.


In truth we all believe what we want to. Evolution still hasn’t been proven, yet you guys believe it, that’s called FAITH.

I do not necessarily believe in evolution, because it has not yet been proven. However, I am not going to dissmiss it because it is logical. Religion, on the other hand, I have dissmissed because it is completely illogical. Do you have trouble accepting that somethings are not explainable to man at this point in time?

[elijahcraig]

The basic idea is that nobody can prove that God does not exist. Same as you can&#39;t prove or refute the idea that Santa exists. Because tomorrow or the next day, santa might just show up. We do not know what the future holds for us. Science does not, and has not, proved everything. The arguments on this thread are very circular and pointless.

That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

Good work.

And I AM being hostile this time.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 09:21 PM

The basic idea is that nobody can prove that God does not exist. Same as you can&#39;t prove or refute the idea that Santa exists. Because tomorrow or the next day, santa might just show up. We do not know what the future holds for us. Science does not, and has not, proved everything. The arguments on this thread are very circular and pointless.

That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

Good work.

And I AM being hostile this time.
Does science answer everything ?

Do you know what will happen tomorrow ? (By tomorrow, I mean the future)

Einstein could mathematically show that parallel worlds exist, or our universe is one part of 6 or 7 layers.
do you believe that ?

[elijahcraig]

Does science answer everything ?

I think you don’t understand science. Science is the collection and analysis of data, observation, etc. Science cannot possibly be a hidden magic card which explains everything. That would be called God, an absolute. The real world is based on change, and science is the way for that world.


Do you know what will happen tomorrow ? (By tomorrow, I mean the future)

Since time (space-time) is merely a fourth dimension, yes you could possibly know what will happen tomorrow in the somewhat distant future, meaning time travel has not been discovered yet.

Although that opens up a whole new set of discussions.


Einstein could mathematically show that parallel worlds exist, or our universe is one part of 6 or 7 layers.
do you believe that ?

You’d have to show me some links so I can make sure I am thinking of the same thing you are.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 09:56 PM


Einstein could mathematically show that parallel worlds exist, or our universe is one part of 6 or 7 layers.
do you believe that ?

You’d have to show me some links so I can make sure I am thinking of the same thing you are.
This is something I discussed in a science class with my professor. I looked for a link, this one kind of shows what I&#39;m talking about.
The idea of a multiverse. Worm holes, Einstein-rosen bridge, etc..

link (http://members.tripod.com/~albert51/non.html)

[elijahcraig]

Oh, ok. Now, that is not so much parallel existences as it is another dimension of the universe, only in space-time, which Hawkings has wrote about a lot.

This has nothing to do with God.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 10:55 PM
Oh, ok. Now, that is not so much parallel existences as it is another dimension of the universe, only in space-time, which Hawkings has wrote about a lot.

This has nothing to do with God.
:lol: I know that.

I was wondering whether you believed it, or not.

[elijahcraig]

Well, I have seen a new scientist (can’t remember the guy’s name dammit), who says that black holes are not as Einstein says, but are just as they appear on the surface, they cannot be entered, exited, etc., but are solid. I don’t know enough about that man’s theory to choose.

[(*]

What I should have asked is whether you believe in anything that has not been scientifically proven, or do you only believe in what can be seen or measured?

Yeah, it&#39;s a loaded question, but I do have some kind of point.
Is it that terrible to believe?

[elijahcraig]

I can speculate, hypothesize. “Belief”? That has nothing to do with science.

[(*]

fair enough


BTW, Santa could appear in the future, it may not be probable, but possible nevertheless :P

[elijahcraig]

No, it’s not possible.

I murdered him.

[(*]

So then he did exist&#33; :o

[elijahcraig]

Oh no&#33;

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:36 PM
well, im glad that this discussion has ended
can we be friends now? :)
Sure :)

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 03:55 AM
Oh, ok. Now, that is not so much parallel existences as it is another dimension of the universe, only in space-time, which Hawkings has wrote about a lot.

This has nothing to do with God.
It is interesting though, one of the books by Hawkings I have read, discusses the possibility of each action a person makes creates a whole new universe where a different possible senario of events could unfold. For example if you were to make a desision to visit the shops there will be a paralel universe where you decide not to visit the shops.

[elijahcraig]

It is interesting though, one of the books by Hawkings I have read, discusses the possibility of each action a person makes creates a whole new universe where a different possible senario of events could unfold. For example if you were to make a desision to visit the shops there will be a paralel universe where you decide not to visit the shops.

Which one was that?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

No, my point is science is not the end all be all.


i don&#39;t know what this means, lad.



In truth we all believe what we want to. Evolution still hasn’t been proven, yet you guys believe it, that’s called FAITH.


I do not necessarily believe in evolution, because it has not yet been proven. However, I am not going to dissmiss it because it is logical. Religion, on the other hand, I have dissmissed because it is completely illogical. Do you have trouble accepting that somethings are not explainable to man at this point in time?




well, im glad that this discussion has ended
can we be friends now?

Sure

uhh, no. you never replied to what i posted before. I posted it again above.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 03:52 PM

It is interesting though, one of the books by Hawkings I have read, discusses the possibility of each action a person makes creates a whole new universe where a different possible senario of events could unfold. For example if you were to make a desision to visit the shops there will be a paralel universe where you decide not to visit the shops.

Which one was that?
I believe the book was called "A brief History of Time". It was very difficult to read and I only got part way through.

[elijahcraig]

Yes, I read that one two years ago. I got 3-4 into it and stopped. Then went back and tried to read it again. Complicated.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 01:21 AM
I volunteer at a local aquarium and was talking to a guest about huge turtle (35-40 feet across) that lived 50 million years ago. He told me that was debatable (to which I though oh no), and proceded to lunch into a triade about the world being around for 3000 years ago. I tried just to blow him off with a "that&#39;s your opinion", but no. He asked me what I thought, so I give the good scientific anwser of serveral billion years old. He asked why I did not believe his theory about god and all that malarky and I replied well if god exists he&#39;s done a great job of setting up lots of edivence that would run counter to these "theories". To this he called my a godless-pinko communist. Of course I proundly announced that I was a godless pinko communist, which he then relied to my instructor. Thank God it was my last day.

PS He was wearing a shirt that had a message nailed to it that said "Back soon, going to fix up the place for you guys. Jesus"

Jesus H. Christ&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
Guys lets not start patting ourselves on the back for being Athiest.

Some of you guys are just as stubborn and pig headed as any christian, my self included

[Nobody]

We&#39;re right and they&#39;re wrong. Enough said.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 03:03 AM
Well, I have seen a new scientist (can’t remember the guy’s name dammit), who says that black holes are not as Einstein says, but are just as they appear on the surface, they cannot be entered, exited, etc., but are solid. I don’t know enough about that man’s theory to choose.
.......Please find this man&#39;s work because it sounds like bullshit to me.

ALl the evidence regarding black holes and their celestial partners(there is another term for them I just can&#39;t remember it) and he&#39;s suggestin that black holes are solid?

[elijahcraig]

Stop your self-loathing nonsense.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 08:39 PM
We&#39;re right and they&#39;re wrong. Enough said.
...yeah well have a fine stay in hell...HEATHEN&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :P

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 08:39 PM
Stop your self-loathing nonsense.
Which post was that about?

[elijahcraig]

The pig-headed one as any christian

I can’t find the man. I read it in Science Magazine last year or some time. I’ve looked on the internet search engines, and just can’t remember his name. It started with an M.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 08:46 PM
The pig-headed one as any christian

I can’t find the man. I read it in Science Magazine last year or some time. I’ve looked on the internet search engines, and just can’t remember his name. It started with an M.
Come on when you firmly believe a belief it&#39;s hard not to be stubborn and pig headed

Damn it...well I&#39;ll try searching for it.Oh did you read about those scientists working on a theory about an inconstant speed of light

[elijahcraig]

Come on when you firmly believe a belief it&#39;s hard not to be stubborn and pig headed

When you believe in truth, reason, and logic alone, you are not comparable to a believer in Christianity.


Damn it...well I&#39;ll try searching for it.Oh did you read about those scientists working on a theory about an inconstant speed of light

That’s what he was doing&#33; The speed of light was not constant at the beginning of time; he extended that theory to other circumstances, where speed of light is not constant always. Though normally is.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:14 PM

Come on when you firmly believe a belief it&#39;s hard not to be stubborn and pig headed

When you believe in truth, reason, and logic alone, you are not comparable to a believer in Christianity.


Damn it...well I&#39;ll try searching for it.Oh did you read about those scientists working on a theory about an inconstant speed of light

That’s what he was doing&#33; The speed of light was not constant at the beginning of time; he extended that theory to other circumstances, where speed of light is not constant always. Though normally is.
But to people that are christian they are believing truth reason and logic.

I mean I see this all the time with Christians who are talking down to people of other religions

They tell buddhists that they are going to hell..but the buddhist isn&#39;t going to hell in the buddhist&#39;s mind because christian concepts don&#39;t even apply to a buddhist&#39;s way of thinking.

So Athist logic wont compute with a christian just like a christians logic wont compute with an athiests


Well i read about two aussia scientists who were work ing on the same theory about light but not about black holes.

DId you happen to read about that...it was on CNN.com a while back

[elijahcraig]

But to people that are christian they are believing truth reason and logic.

I mean I see this all the time with Christians who are talking down to people of other religions

Christians are deluded individuals, of course they believe that. Unfortunately, the whole of reality disagrees.


They tell buddhists that they are going to hell..but the buddhist isn&#39;t going to hell in the buddhist&#39;s mind because christian concepts don&#39;t even apply to a buddhist&#39;s way of thinking.

So Athist logic wont compute with a christian just like a christians logic wont compute with an athiests

That’s bullshit. I used to be a Christian, now I am an Atheist. Liberation from idiocy and ignorance is Atheism.



Well i read about two aussia scientists who were work ing on the same theory about light but not about black holes.

DId you happen to read about that...it was on CNN.com a while back

No, haven’t seen it.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:29 PM

But to people that are christian they are believing truth reason and logic.

I mean I see this all the time with Christians who are talking down to people of other religions

Christians are deluded individuals, of course they believe that. Unfortunately, the whole of reality disagrees.


They tell buddhists that they are going to hell..but the buddhist isn&#39;t going to hell in the buddhist&#39;s mind because christian concepts don&#39;t even apply to a buddhist&#39;s way of thinking.

So Athist logic wont compute with a christian just like a christians logic wont compute with an athiests

That’s bullshit. I used to be a Christian, now I am an Atheist. Liberation from idiocy and ignorance is Atheism.



Well i read about two aussia scientists who were work ing on the same theory about light but not about black holes.

DId you happen to read about that...it was on CNN.com a while back

No, haven’t seen it.
Libberation from idiocy? see you are being condecending, just like a christian would.

Admit it, regardless of the belief system you are being just as big a jerk as they can be.

You are insulting and generalizin someone based on a belief....how manytimes have capitalists done that to us?

You can disagree but being condecending just isn&#39;t the way, atleast not to educate people

[elijahcraig]

Libberation from idiocy? see you are being condecending, just like a christian would.

Of course I am. I don’t respect ignorance. Comparing reason and logic as beliefs compared to ignorance and stupidity is just nonsensical. You’re just stretching this comparison out, it’s thin and useless.


Admit it, regardless of the belief system you are being just as big a jerk as they can be.

Nope.


You are insulting and generalizin someone based on a belief....how manytimes have capitalists done that to us?

I generalize Christians because they generalize themselves. Only the ignorant fools would gladly be called herded sheep.


You can disagree but being condecending just isn&#39;t the way, atleast not to educate people

I agree here, you can’t insult people. You have to apply reason and discussion with them.

[BuyOurEverything]

It is interesting though, one of the books by Hawkings I have read, discusses the possibility of each action a person makes creates a whole new universe where a different possible senario of events could unfold. For example if you were to make a desision to visit the shops there will be a paralel universe where you decide not to visit the shops.

Isn&#39;t that the quantum multiverse theory?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:43 PM

Libberation from idiocy? see you are being condecending, just like a christian would.

Of course I am. I don’t respect ignorance. Comparing reason and logic as beliefs compared to ignorance and stupidity is just nonsensical. You’re just stretching this comparison out, it’s thin and useless.


Admit it, regardless of the belief system you are being just as big a jerk as they can be.

Nope.


You are insulting and generalizin someone based on a belief....how manytimes have capitalists done that to us?

I generalize Christians because they generalize themselves. Only the ignorant fools would gladly be called herded sheep.


You can disagree but being condecending just isn&#39;t the way, atleast not to educate people

I agree here, you can’t insult people. You have to apply reason and discussion with them.
but you are insulting them, not teaching them.

Whatis ignorance? Is ignorance anything that you don&#39;t believe?

I mean I don&#39;t really see a reason for t hose people not to be christian, I also don&#39;t seea reason for them to be christian.

The agnostics got it right, there isn&#39;t enough evidence either way.

science still can&#39;t prove where the universe came from, and christians can&#39;t prove it did come from God.


Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, and scientists lack the knowledge of where hte universe came from, so they are ignorant of where the universe came from.

...see there everyone is now ignorant. And since you don&#39;t respect ignorance how cna you respect yourself...

Unless you posses the knowledge of the origins of the universe with concrete evidence.

Do you happen to posses this knowledge?


"Only the ignorant fools would gladly be called herded sheep."


Ok did you mess up the metaphor on purpose, or did you just not understand it?

[elijahcraig]

but you are insulting them, not teaching them.

Who? A room full of Atheists?


Whatis ignorance? Is ignorance anything that you don&#39;t believe?

Belief in nonsense. Superstition, etc. Let’s not get into the RedStar cave of posting these sorts of nonsensical questions.


I mean I don&#39;t really see a reason for t hose people not to be christian, I also don&#39;t seea reason for them to be christian.

Christianity is FUCKING BULLSHIT. That is why. Period.


The agnostics got it right, there isn&#39;t enough evidence either way.

Read Engels on “Agnosticism”.


science still can&#39;t prove where the universe came from, and christians can&#39;t prove it did come from God.

There is no concept of “time or space” outside of the big bang. No “before or where” before the big bang. They are all concepts created with its occurrence.



Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, and scientists lack the knowledge of where hte universe came from, so they are ignorant of where the universe came from.

Nope, the big bang.


..see there everyone is now ignorant. And since you don&#39;t respect ignorance how cna you respect yourself...

Nice one RS.



"Only the ignorant fools would gladly be called herded sheep."


Ok did you mess up the metaphor on purpose, or did you just not understand it?

How did I mess it up?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:16 PM

but you are insulting them, not teaching them.

Who? A room full of Atheists?


Whatis ignorance? Is ignorance anything that you don&#39;t believe?

Belief in nonsense. Superstition, etc. Let’s not get into the RedStar cave of posting these sorts of nonsensical questions.


I mean I don&#39;t really see a reason for t hose people not to be christian, I also don&#39;t seea reason for them to be christian.

Christianity is FUCKING BULLSHIT. That is why. Period.


The agnostics got it right, there isn&#39;t enough evidence either way.

Read Engels on “Agnosticism”.


science still can&#39;t prove where the universe came from, and christians can&#39;t prove it did come from God.

There is no concept of “time or space” outside of the big bang. No “before or where” before the big bang. They are all concepts created with its occurrence.



Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, and scientists lack the knowledge of where hte universe came from, so they are ignorant of where the universe came from.

Nope, the big bang.


..see there everyone is now ignorant. And since you don&#39;t respect ignorance how cna you respect yourself...

Nice one RS.



"Only the ignorant fools would gladly be called herded sheep."


Ok did you mess up the metaphor on purpose, or did you just not understand it?

How did I mess it up?
ood point, all you athiests have just given each o th e rbig heads and it&#39;s very very unsettling

What is superstition to you is fact to someone else...and what is fact to you is a lie to someone else. YOu aren&#39;t right simply because you disagree with them.

>>>Christianity is FUCKING BULLSHIT. That is why. Period.<<<

well enjoy your stay in hell then


>>Read Engels on “Agnosticism”.<<

Does the marxist online archive have it?


>There is no concept of “time or space” outside of the big bang. No “before or where” before the big bang. They are all concepts created with its occurrence.<

And there was no before, or no time or space before God....your big bang explanation is the same as someone trying to explain where God came from.

So please explain what started the bang, explosions don&#39;t just occur for no reaqson, it&#39;s cause and effect.

>>How did I mess it up?<<


THe sheep metaphorin the bible basically means that people cared for and loved by Jesus and that he is our guide.

Like a shepard guides, cares for, and loves his flock.

It has nothing to do with blindly following someone...though twisting that into an insultfell right into your lap.

And since that was soeasy to turn into an insult i give you know points, a 3rd grader could have associated the sheep analogy with mindless sheep following someone like lemmings

[elijahcraig]

What is superstition to you is fact to someone else...and what is fact to you is a lie to someone else. YOu aren&#39;t right simply because you disagree with them.

No, that is wrong. Fact is fact, a lie is a lie. I am typing on a computer at this moment, if someone asserts different, they are lying.


>>Read Engels on “Agnosticism”.<<

Does the marxist online archive have it?

Yes. It’s in this work: “Socialism: Scientific and Utopian”



And there was no before, or no time or space before God....your big bang explanation is the same as someone trying to explain where God came from.

God is defined as infinite, which is not a realistic conception, infinity is an abstract concept, it is representative to the primitive man as “THE UNKNOWN.”

Stop that RS&#33;


So please explain what started the bang, explosions don&#39;t just occur for no reaqson, it&#39;s cause and effect.

I posted a link a while back. http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/8...6/big-bang.html (http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html)

Quantum physics.


THe sheep metaphorin the bible basically means that people cared for and loved by Jesus and that he is our guide.

Like a shepard guides, cares for, and loves his flock.

It has nothing to do with blindly following someone...though twisting that into an insultfell right into your lap.

And since that was soeasy to turn into an insult i give you know points, a 3rd grader could have associated the sheep analogy with mindless sheep following someone like lemmings

Following anyone who preaches ignorance as a virtue, as Jesus does through Paul, is exactly the way I meant it, and exactly the reality of the religion. You can’t be a Christian without being a blind follower.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:46 PM

What is superstition to you is fact to someone else...and what is fact to you is a lie to someone else. YOu aren&#39;t right simply because you disagree with them.

No, that is wrong. Fact is fact, a lie is a lie. I am typing on a computer at this moment, if someone asserts different, they are lying.


>>Read Engels on “Agnosticism”.<<

Does the marxist online archive have it?

Yes. It’s in this work: “Socialism: Scientific and Utopian”



And there was no before, or no time or space before God....your big bang explanation is the same as someone trying to explain where God came from.

God is defined as infinite, which is not a realistic conception, infinity is an abstract concept, it is representative to the primitive man as “THE UNKNOWN.”

Stop that RS&#33;


So please explain what started the bang, explosions don&#39;t just occur for no reaqson, it&#39;s cause and effect.

I posted a link a while back. http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/8...6/big-bang.html (http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html)

Quantum physics.


THe sheep metaphorin the bible basically means that people cared for and loved by Jesus and that he is our guide.

Like a shepard guides, cares for, and loves his flock.

It has nothing to do with blindly following someone...though twisting that into an insultfell right into your lap.

And since that was soeasy to turn into an insult i give you know points, a 3rd grader could have associated the sheep analogy with mindless sheep following someone like lemmings

Following anyone who preaches ignorance as a virtue, as Jesus does through Paul, is exactly the way I meant it, and exactly the reality of the religion. You can’t be a Christian without being a blind follower.
No that is wrong. A fact is whatever we chose to believe. People have presented me with "facts&#39; that say black people are dumb...am i to believe them simply because some scietist gives me his seal of approval?


>>>God is defined as infinite, which is not a realistic conception, infinity is an abstract concept, it is representative to the primitive man as “THE UNKNOWN.” <<<

Theunkown? THat would imply that something came before it.....

Nothing came before space-time...

ANd so nothing came before God

There was no point of origin for either.

So that isn&#39;t necassarily infinity, it&#39;s just a reality in which nothing happened before them.

Oh and thank youfor the artcile i really enjoyed reading it

If you have anymore of his work I&#39;d love to read some

Jesus taught ignorance as a virtue? how

[elijahcraig]

No that is wrong. A fact is whatever we chose to believe. People have presented me with "facts&#39; that say black people are dumb...am i to believe them simply because some scietist gives me his seal of approval?

You are insane. A fact is that which stands up to all tests. “A fact is whatever we chose to believe.”? That’s just puke.



Theunkown? THat would imply that something came before it.....

There is no before where there is no time.


Nothing came before space-time...

ANd so nothing came before God

Etc.


There was no point of origin for either.

Maybe you can’t grasp this Gorgias, but I’ve already explained it.


So that isn&#39;t necassarily infinity, it&#39;s just a reality in which nothing happened before them.

Etc.


Jesus taught ignorance as a virtue? how

Ever read Corinthians?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 11:43 PM

No that is wrong. A fact is whatever we chose to believe. People have presented me with "facts&#39; that say black people are dumb...am i to believe them simply because some scietist gives me his seal of approval?

You are insane. A fact is that which stands up to all tests. “A fact is whatever we chose to believe.”? That’s just puke.



Theunkown? THat would imply that something came before it.....

There is no before where there is no time.


Nothing came before space-time...

ANd so nothing came before God

Etc.


There was no point of origin for either.

Maybe you can’t grasp this Gorgias, but I’ve already explained it.


So that isn&#39;t necassarily infinity, it&#39;s just a reality in which nothing happened before them.

Etc.


Jesus taught ignorance as a virtue? how

Ever read Corinthians?
....I see you have a problem realizing that justbecause you believe something that doesn&#39;t make it true.

What I&#39;m trying to say is that what a fact is, isn&#39;t necasarily what you believe a fact is.

A fact isn&#39;t a fact to someone if they don&#39;t believe it.

For instance all your little stalin defense "facts" are they facts to a capitalist who hates stalin with the passion of a thousand suns?

Are those facts that say stalin was an evil killing machine are those "facts" really facts to you?

No you&#39;ve said they were lies countless times.

But to a capitalist those are facts.

Truth and Knowledge is only a perception. You can onl y believe what you personally percieve to be true.

Regardless of what tests it stands up to, a fact is what you believe.

You are a communist, will any amount of economist facts that say communism isn&#39;t feesible convince you that communism can&#39;t work?

Of course it wont, you disregard everything they say as "bullshit"

But these guys are economists who study economics, how can they be wrong?

YOusay it&#39;s a cappie biased that they incorporate into their facts.

But to someone who isn&#39;t communist what they say is truth.

You have a biased which makes things that lean towards your biased more believeable to you.

You are less likely to believe bad things about stalin but you are more likely to believe bad things about Bush.

DO you understand?

Talk to an economist thatclaims communism can&#39;t work, would you believethem if they presented you with facts? No you wouldn&#39;t, because that isn&#39;t what you believe.

Knowledge and truth aren&#39;t definite, end of disscussion.

[elijahcraig]

....I see you have a problem realizing that justbecause you believe something that doesn&#39;t make it true.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I believe it or not. If it is true, it is true, and if I believe different, I am wrong.


What I&#39;m trying to say is that what a fact is, isn&#39;t necasarily what you believe a fact is.

A fact isn&#39;t a fact to someone if they don&#39;t believe it.

It doesn’t matter if they consider it a fact. It matters whether it is or not.


For instance all your little stalin defense "facts" are they facts to a capitalist who hates stalin with the passion of a thousand suns?

It doesn’t matter whether capitalists view them as fact. It doesn’t matter whether we view them as fact. It matters what is indeed fact.


Are those facts that say stalin was an evil killing machine are those "facts" really facts to you?

Since they have been discredited, no they are not facts. That’s how logic is applied, you disprove something, and it no longer holds up to reason.


No you&#39;ve said they were lies countless times.

They haven’t been discredited.


But to a capitalist those are facts.

And to Christians there is free will. It means fuck all in the real world.


Truth and Knowledge is only a perception. You can onl y believe what you personally percieve to be true.

That is just nonsense. Perception has nothing to do with it. There is reality, and there are those who live in it. Truth is objective, perception is not.


Regardless of what tests it stands up to, a fact is what you believe.

Nope.


You are a communist, will any amount of economist facts that say communism isn&#39;t feesible convince you that communism can&#39;t work?

Economist facts? Show me some.


Of course it wont, you disregard everything they say as "bullshit"

No, I view things and analyze them, and if they disprove Marxism, then so be it. I’m not an idiot.


But these guys are economists who study economics, how can they be wrong?

What does that mean? We Marxists know all about vulgar economists, Marx discredited them long ago.


YOusay it&#39;s a cappie biased that they incorporate into their facts.

But to someone who isn&#39;t communist what they say is truth.

What the fuck does this have to do with ANYTHING? Truth is not some twisted concept you can abstract, it is concrete, it is reality.


You have a biased which makes things that lean towards your biased more believeable to you.

I rely on science, science is not biased.


You are less likely to believe bad things about stalin but you are more likely to believe bad things about Bush.

Considering the track record, obviously. Not just out of thin air.


DO you understand?

I understand you have drooled on four two pages of rambling nonsense.


Talk to an economist thatclaims communism can&#39;t work, would you believethem if they presented you with facts? No you wouldn&#39;t, because that isn&#39;t what you believe.

No such facts exist. If there are, present them.


Knowledge and truth aren&#39;t definite, end of disscussion.

Yes, they are. Whether we can objectively communicate them is the problem.

BTW, you in this post are an example of PETTY BOURGEOIS INDIVIDUALIST, ie Idealism.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 12:35 AM

....I see you have a problem realizing that justbecause you believe something that doesn&#39;t make it true.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I believe it or not. If it is true, it is true, and if I believe different, I am wrong.


What I&#39;m trying to say is that what a fact is, isn&#39;t necasarily what you believe a fact is.

A fact isn&#39;t a fact to someone if they don&#39;t believe it.

It doesn’t matter if they consider it a fact. It matters whether it is or not.


For instance all your little stalin defense "facts" are they facts to a capitalist who hates stalin with the passion of a thousand suns?

It doesn’t matter whether capitalists view them as fact. It doesn’t matter whether we view them as fact. It matters what is indeed fact.


Are those facts that say stalin was an evil killing machine are those "facts" really facts to you?

Since they have been discredited, no they are not facts. That’s how logic is applied, you disprove something, and it no longer holds up to reason.


No you&#39;ve said they were lies countless times.

They haven’t been discredited.


But to a capitalist those are facts.

And to Christians there is free will. It means fuck all in the real world.


Truth and Knowledge is only a perception. You can onl y believe what you personally percieve to be true.

That is just nonsense. Perception has nothing to do with it. There is reality, and there are those who live in it. Truth is objective, perception is not.


Regardless of what tests it stands up to, a fact is what you believe.

Nope.


You are a communist, will any amount of economist facts that say communism isn&#39;t feesible convince you that communism can&#39;t work?

Economist facts? Show me some.


Of course it wont, you disregard everything they say as "bullshit"

No, I view things and analyze them, and if they disprove Marxism, then so be it. I’m not an idiot.


But these guys are economists who study economics, how can they be wrong?

What does that mean? We Marxists know all about vulgar economists, Marx discredited them long ago.


YOusay it&#39;s a cappie biased that they incorporate into their facts.

But to someone who isn&#39;t communist what they say is truth.

What the fuck does this have to do with ANYTHING? Truth is not some twisted concept you can abstract, it is concrete, it is reality.


You have a biased which makes things that lean towards your biased more believeable to you.

I rely on science, science is not biased.


You are less likely to believe bad things about stalin but you are more likely to believe bad things about Bush.

Considering the track record, obviously. Not just out of thin air.


DO you understand?

I understand you have drooled on four two pages of rambling nonsense.


Talk to an economist thatclaims communism can&#39;t work, would you believethem if they presented you with facts? No you wouldn&#39;t, because that isn&#39;t what you believe.

No such facts exist. If there are, present them.


Knowledge and truth aren&#39;t definite, end of disscussion.

Yes, they are. Whether we can objectively communicate them is the problem.

BTW, you in this post are an example of PETTY BOURGEOIS INDIVIDUALIST, ie Idealism.
Look I&#39;ve got conflicting facts on WHy capitalism is good and why Marxism is bad.

So take a look at them and tell me which set of facts you believe.

I&#39;m going to have to PM them to you because the format wont set up right on the board.


ALso, when something is debateable how can anything be a concrete fact?

The entire point of something being debateable is that there is no concrete fat, or atleast no fact so concrete that they can p ut na end to the debate.

SO lets say we were arguing the job market falling since bush came into office.

Now you could argue with facts that Bush is responsible for the 2 million+ jobs lost since he&#39;s taken office.

I&#39;ve seen facts for this.

Now I could argue that it was simply a result of an economic cycle

I&#39;ve seen facts for this.

You&#39;ve see conflicting facts before...you have to have, you come into OI all the time.

If facts weren&#39;t based on what we believe there would be no arguementation.

If you could prove without a shadow of a doubt that communism was the greatest economic system on earth why would anyone be capitalist?

THe reason is cuz the person who is a capitalist simply doesn&#39;t believe those facts, they believe their own facts.

Now I&#39;m going to PM you the conflicting facts


oh and by theway... petty individuality?

Well atleastI think outside the box

[elijahcraig]

Look I&#39;ve got conflicting facts on WHy capitalism is good and why Marxism is bad.

So take a look at them and tell me which set of facts you believe.

I&#39;m going to have to PM them to you because the format wont set up right on the board.

Nice one. Like I said, no one is the source of facts. They are objective. What I say is merely opinions communicating facts.



ALso, when something is debateable how can anything be a concrete fact?

Concrete facts stand up to all debate, debating facts does not prove them wrong, though it can.


The entire point of something being debateable is that there is no concrete fat, or atleast no fact so concrete that they can p ut na end to the debate.

You can debate anything, it is only a way of interpreting data, not changing facts.


SO lets say we were arguing the job market falling since bush came into office.

Now you could argue with facts that Bush is responsible for the 2 million+ jobs lost since he&#39;s taken office.

I&#39;ve seen facts for this.

Now I could argue that it was simply a result of an economic cycle

I&#39;ve seen facts for this.

You&#39;ve see conflicting facts before...you have to have, you come into OI all the time.

If facts weren&#39;t based on what we believe there would be no arguementation.

Speculation is not fact, when something occurs later, that will be a fact.

Economic cycle? Marx went over this.


If you could prove without a shadow of a doubt that communism was the greatest economic system on earth why would anyone be capitalist?

You know the answer to that, and if you do not you are naïve.


THe reason is cuz the person who is a capitalist simply doesn&#39;t believe those facts, they believe their own facts.

Capitalists do not rely on facts, they rely on profits.

[Lardlad95]

Ah, I see now,you believe that a fact is onlythatwhich is always true. Everything else is just data or opinion?

Well I disagree. THe truth changes, unless there are universal turths

Do you believe there are universal truths? Or are their things that are simply axiomatic for the moment.


Well profits can be a type of fact, not the only one though .

[elijahcraig]

Ah, I see now,you believe that a fact is onlythatwhich is always true. Everything else is just data or opinion?

Opinions aren’t facts, and data is something you use to obtain facts. Good lord.


Well I disagree. THe truth changes, unless there are universal turths

Universalism has nothing to do with this. Facts are facts. We orbit around the sun, always.


Do you believe there are universal truths? Or are their things that are simply axiomatic for the moment.

I do not believe in universal morality, but universal facts are another thing. Morality is based on interpretation of facts and progress of the society based on the economic system. Facts are, once again, facts.



Well profits can be a type of fact, not the only one though .

That does not make sense.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 01:40 AM

Ah, I see now,you believe that a fact is onlythatwhich is always true. Everything else is just data or opinion?

Opinions aren’t facts, and data is something you use to obtain facts. Good lord.


Well I disagree. THe truth changes, unless there are universal turths

Universalism has nothing to do with this. Facts are facts. We orbit around the sun, always.


Do you believe there are universal truths? Or are their things that are simply axiomatic for the moment.

I do not believe in universal morality, but universal facts are another thing. Morality is based on interpretation of facts and progress of the society based on the economic system. Facts are, once again, facts.



Well profits can be a type of fact, not the only one though .

That does not make sense.
I didn&#39;t say opinions were facts, i was trying to get a grasp on exactley what you meant.

I said that you were saying facts are things which can&#39;t be disproven and everything that isn&#39;t a fact is data or opinion



The point is facts change.

It&#39;s a fact that we revolve around the sun, but if the sun is destroyed then it isn&#39;t a fact anymore.

Everything is impermanent, even facts

[elijahcraig]

The point is facts change.

No, they do not.


It&#39;s a fact that we revolve around the sun, but if the sun is destroyed then it isn&#39;t a fact anymore.

No, the fact doesn’t change.

Right now, we are revolving around the sun; when it is destroyed, the fact is that it is destroyed, so we can’t orbit anymore. That’s called change. It doesn’t change the FACT that we did, in fact, orbit around the sun, and now we do not as a result of its destruction.

BTW, we will be destroyed by the sun. So we will, in fact, be orbiting around it until it crashes into us.


Everything is impermanent, even facts

False.

Facts are permanent, a change in condition makes a new fact appear.

I am typing on a computer RIGHT NOW=fact.
I am not typing ONCE I GO to bed=fact.

[elijahcraig]

I said that you were saying facts are things which can&#39;t be disproven and everything that isn&#39;t a fact is data or opinion

If a fact can be disproved, it is not a fact.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:00 AM

The point is facts change.

No, they do not.


It&#39;s a fact that we revolve around the sun, but if the sun is destroyed then it isn&#39;t a fact anymore.

No, the fact doesn’t change.

Right now, we are revolving around the sun; when it is destroyed, the fact is that it is destroyed, so we can’t orbit anymore. That’s called change. It doesn’t change the FACT that we did, in fact, orbit around the sun, and now we do not as a result of its destruction.

BTW, we will be destroyed by the sun. So we will, in fact, be orbiting around it until it crashes into us.


Everything is impermanent, even facts

False.

Facts are permanent, a change in condition makes a new fact appear.

I am typing on a computer RIGHT NOW=fact.
I am not typing ONCE I GO to bed=fact.
No it isn&#39;t a fact still.

It&#39;s a fact that we WERE revolving around the sun.

It ISN"T a fact that we ARE revolving around the sun.

The key there is the tenses.

I was talking about the fact "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN"

If the sun was destroyed the statement "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN" is now false

the statement "WE USED TO REVOLVE AROUND THE SUN" Is true



The fact "We are revolving around the sun" changed from true to false

thus facts change

[elijahcraig]

No it isn&#39;t a fact still.

It&#39;s a fact that we WERE revolving around the sun.

It ISN"T a fact that we ARE revolving around the sun.

And? They are both still facts. We were and now we are not.


I was talking about the fact "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN"

If the sun was destroyed the statement "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN" is now false

the statement "WE USED TO REVOLVE AROUND THE SUN" Is true



The fact "We are revolving around the sun" changed from true to false

thus facts change

The facts did not change. The point in time in which they were said did.

Are you saying that once I stop typing, that it is no longer a fact that I was typing?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:15 AM

No it isn&#39;t a fact still.

It&#39;s a fact that we WERE revolving around the sun.

It ISN"T a fact that we ARE revolving around the sun.

And? They are both still facts. We were and now we are not.


I was talking about the fact "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN"

If the sun was destroyed the statement "WE ARE REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN" is now false

the statement "WE USED TO REVOLVE AROUND THE SUN" Is true



The fact "We are revolving around the sun" changed from true to false

thus facts change

The facts did not change. The point in time in which they were said did.

Are you saying that once I stop typing, that it is no longer a fact that I was typing?
But you typing in the present isn&#39;t the same as you typing in the past.

THey simply aren&#39;t the same thing.

Because you aren&#39;t typing anymore.

You are typing is only fact when you are actually typing.

If you arne&#39;t typing....is it true that you are?

You can&#39;t be typing and nottyping at the same time

[elijahcraig]

But you typing in the present isn&#39;t the same as you typing in the past.

THey simply aren&#39;t the same thing.

Because you aren&#39;t typing anymore.

You are typing is only fact when you are actually typing.

If you arne&#39;t typing....is it true that you are?

That has nothing to do with it. Is it a fact that at 8 am today such and such tv show came on? It is if it came on. We aren’t constrained to the present when noting facts. It is a fact that I just saw myself in the mirror. When I looked away, I was no longer looking in the mirror (fact), but it is also true (a fact) that I did look in the mirror.


You can&#39;t be typing and nottyping at the same time

That’s kind of…obvious. It has nothing to do with facts not being absolute though.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:26 AM

But you typing in the present isn&#39;t the same as you typing in the past.

THey simply aren&#39;t the same thing.

Because you aren&#39;t typing anymore.

You are typing is only fact when you are actually typing.

If you arne&#39;t typing....is it true that you are?

That has nothing to do with it. Is it a fact that at 8 am today such and such tv show came on? It is if it came on. We aren’t constrained to the present when noting facts. It is a fact that I just saw myself in the mirror. When I looked away, I was no longer looking in the mirror (fact), but it is also true (a fact) that I did look in the mirror.


You can&#39;t be typing and nottyping at the same time

That’s kind of…obvious. It has nothing to do with facts not being absolute though.
Butit isn&#39;t a factthat you are currently looking in the mirror.

It is a fact that Napoleon was exiled to Elba

It isn&#39;t a fact that Napoleon is exiled on Elba

he isn&#39;t currently serving a sentence of exile there.

A present tense fact is only true as long as it is still happenin

[elijahcraig]

Butit isn&#39;t a factthat you are currently looking in the mirror.

A fact can be past or present. I was looking at the mirror (fact); I am not looking at the mirror right now (fact); I was looking at the mirror (fact).


A present tense fact is only true as long as it is still happenin

That’s kind of obvious. But facts are not constrained to the present tense. That’s just illogical.