Same old police, same old sectarian state

[Che a chara]

Bernie McAdam Fri, 18/02/2011 - 11:02

A rising toll of repression and cuts is all Britain and her puppet executive can offer workers in the state of ‘Northern Ireland’ reports Bernie McAdam

It seems any political opposition to the Peace Deal or the sectarian nature of life in the six county state is a target of repression.

Last July a peaceful sit down protest was attacked by the police. The protest was organised by the Greater Ardoyne Residents Collective (GARC) against an Orange parade marching through their area.

This was a perfectly justified response to an inflammatory, sectarian parade in an area totally opposed to it.

It seems now the police have raided forty homes of demonstrators and served many summons for attending an ‘illegal’ protest.

This should come as no surprise to Catholic areas well used to this heavy handed and unequal treatment but there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy from Cameron as he pleads for Egyptians’ right to peaceful protest.

As Britain tries to break any political resistance to its rule in the north it would appear that Cameron has learnt more from Mubarak rather than the people of Egypt!

Mairtin og Meehan spokesperson for the Republican Network for Unity (RNU) and one of the organisers of the protest has been singled out for particularly vicious attacks from the police.

RNU chairperson Danny McBrearty said, “After searching Mr Meehan under the so called Terrorism Act, a number of RUC/PSNI personnel brutally assaulted him then also forced him into wrist and leg restraints before he was dragged into an armoured land rover. Despite complaining of suffering from a serious heart condition and breathing difficulties, Mr. Meehan was arrested and taken to Antrim Road Barracks in Belfast.

“Soon afterwards, the former Republican prisoner was ‘interviewed’ by two plain- clothes RUC/PSNI members who offered him a large amount of cash to jail three named Belfast Republicans. He was further warned that if he refused to ‘co-operate’, details of his personal movements would be passed to Loyalist Paramilitaries.

“After refusing to comply, the RNU spokesperson was charged with assaulting three RUC/PSNI men, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct. He was then bailed to appear at Belfast Magistrates Court next month”.

Mairtin had already endured five house raids in eight weeks and the removal of many personal items.

Bloody Sunday protesters attacked
Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP) spokesperson Martin McMonagle has described an incident on board the Derry to Belfast train on Sunday in which IRSP members and supporters were attacked by members of the PSNI as outrageous, blatant sectarianism.

He began, “The IRSP condemns outright the unprovoked attack on members and supporters of our party who were returning to Belfast following their participation in the Bloody Sunday march in Derry at the weekend. The incident began when the conductor on board the train learned that the victims had just attended the march in Derry. Previous to this the conductor had engaged in friendly chat but according to witnesses his demeanor immediately changed when he found out where they had been.

“In a very dramatic and dangerous situation a large number of passengers were forced from the train by the PSNI, including women and children, no reason was given; the PSNI simply entered the train in riot gear and before speaking immediately launched a savage attack on our members, supporters and others in the carriage. They arrested a number of passengers and forced the rest on to the street in Coleraine to make their own way home. Fearing for their personal safety after being abandoned in a strange town the passengers managed to get to a safe area in Coleraine and from there managed to obtain lifts and taxis.

“Members of the IRSP were injured, including a broken arm and the effects of CS gas inhalation, following the unprovoked attack”.

Mr. McMonagle went on, “In scenes reminiscent of times gone by the PSNI were waiting in large numbers at Coleraine for the train to come to a halt in a blatant set piece situation. Accounts given to the IRSP indicate that there were between sixteen and twenty PSNI land rovers parked up around the train station in Coleraine with their blue lights flashing. When the train came to a halt the PSNI immediately began attacking all those on the carriage using implements such as extendable batons and CS gas spray. One member of the IRSP has sustained a broken arm among other injuries. Other members of the party were arrested and we suspect the usual lame line of “anyone with a complaint should contact the police ombudsman” will no doubt be trotted out by the PSNI press office”.

Maghaberry prisoners
The plight of Republican prisoners at Maghaberry jail continues to worsen. A letter from one of the prisoners D.D McLaughlin graphically describes the continuing use of strip searching in defiance of the August agreement between prison authorities and the inmates.

“I was twice subjected to forced strip searches today. That was my tenth forced rip in the last twelve weeks…. I was brought to the reception where the search team was waiting and forced into 3ftx3ft cubicle by two of them where I refused to strip…. I was then brought to a holding cell and kept in there for about 50 minute with a governor coming in twice to tell me their so-called prison rules….

All the while outside the cell the riot squad are getting ready. Suddenly the cell door bursts open and in they come in full riot gear, helmets, shields, body protection, the works. They ram the shield into my face, two of them grab my arms, another grabs my head, I’m forced to the ground - Arms forced up my back, 2 knees forced into my head to hold it down , 2 knees in the back of my legs… Then another one of them starts to force off my shoes, socks and trousers off. I’m then moved into a forced position so that my boxers are ripped down and my frontal private parts can be seen by them. I’m then forced back into a position where my boxers are completely forced off me and a hand held metal detector is ran over my backside.

At this stage, it’s hard to breathe with their gloves covering my face and mouth. I’m still being held by four of them on the floor, my private parts exposed… Naked! Lying there!

They then grab my boxers and jeans and force them up, hurting me, leaving my private parts still exposed – They then move me into another awkward position to take my t shirt off… I think my arms are about to break in two! It’s agony at this stage. My wrists are just numb... Being twisted the whole time this is going on. My shirt is now off. I’m lying now with both my arms are forced up my back towards the roof while the riot squad run out of the cell. My arms just drop to the floor. I try my best to get onto my feet using my elbows, trousers hanging off me, boxers still below my private parts. I’m aching all over!

I try to get dressed as the riot squad stand smirking at me. I just stare back at them. I think of the other things they have done to me in the past. Forced strips, cut my clothes off, broke my nose, stood on me, forced me into squat positions, and forced my mouth open by trying to break my wrist… I could go on!”

Back to the streets
These incidents demonstrate once again that the ‘Northern Ireland’ state remains a prison house for Catholics. No amount of window dressing from Sinn Fein can alter the fact that they are jointly administering a state which continues to dish out increasing doses of repression. In the interests of ‘stability’ and ‘peace’ the Executive partners, indeed all the main political parties, will now insist on draconian cuts and have a repressive apparatus to use when workers decide to fight back.

GARC has led the way in building street protests last summer. Street protests should immediately be called through social networking and word of mouth whenever communities are under police attack as when people are summarily lifted. Residents groups will undoubtedly be faced with a need to protect their own areas. All Republicans, socialists, trade unionists and community activists should form anti repression committees and link the groups up across Ireland.

A new anti imperialist movement which addresses police raids, Orange marches, political status and prisoners’ rights as well as the whole question of British presence in Ireland needs to be built. As the capitalist crisis devastates working class communities throughout the island it will be necessary to form a militant anti cuts movement as well.

A militant anti cuts movement built around the need for strike action to defeat the government whilst having its own dynamic will undoubtedly face a northern state equally contemptuous of its demands. Therein lays the opportunity for socialists to link the fight against imperialism with the struggle against all the effects of a capitalist crisis. Moreover a capitalist system north and south of the border which is inextricably bound up with serving an increasingly unstable world dominated by a small number of imperialist countries.

LINK: http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/same-old-police-same-old-sectarian-state

[RGacky3]

Its the same with Britain as it is with the US.

DEMOCRACY IS AWESOME (but not in our backyard).

[Viet Minh]

Last July a peaceful sit down protest was attacked by the police. The protest was organised by the Greater Ardoyne Residents Collective (GARC) against an Orange parade marching through their area.

This was a perfectly justified response to an inflammatory, sectarian parade in an area totally opposed to it.This works both ways, I recently served 180 hours of community service for 'religious' breach of the peace :rolleyes: after protesting a blatantly pro-RIRA parade. The police officers told us to basically not speak, and not show any flags etc. It is the usual tactic to discourage counter-protesting which is when violence occurs.


This should come as no surprise to Catholic areas well used to this heavy handed and unequal treatment but there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy from Cameron as he pleads for Egyptians’ right to peaceful protest.

As Britain tries to break any political resistance to its rule in the north it would appear that Cameron has learnt more from Mubarak rather than the people of Egypt!'Catholic areas', aren't the Republicans always telling us they are open to all religions? Cameron is an idiot, but the situations in Egypt and N. Ireland are incomparable, there are very very different issues at stake. The only thing they have in common are the Shoukri brothers.


Bloody Sunday protesters attacked
Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP) spokesperson Martin McMonagle has described an incident on board the Derry to Belfast train on Sunday in which IRSP members and supporters were attacked by members of the PSNI as outrageous, blatant sectarianism.

He began, “The IRSP condemns outright the unprovoked attack on members and supporters of our party who were returning to Belfast following their participation in the Bloody Sunday march in Derry at the weekend. The incident began when the conductor on board the train learned that the victims had just attended the march in Derry. Previous to this the conductor had engaged in friendly chat but according to witnesses his demeanor immediately changed when he found out where they had been.

“In a very dramatic and dangerous situation a large number of passengers were forced from the train by the PSNI, including women and children, no reason was given; the PSNI simply entered the train in riot gear and before speaking immediately launched a savage attack on our members, supporters and others in the carriage. They arrested a number of passengers and forced the rest on to the street in Coleraine to make their own way home. Fearing for their personal safety after being abandoned in a strange town the passengers managed to get to a safe area in Coleraine and from there managed to obtain lifts and taxis.If this is true it is disgraceful. However not to be overly pedantic but calling these attacks sectarian is a misnomer, the IRSP is not a strictly Catholic group, or at least doesn't claim to be, and the PSNI have a strict policy of employing at least 50% Catholics.


Maghaberry prisoners
The plight of Republican prisoners at Maghaberry jail continues to worsen. A letter from one of the prisoners D.D McLaughlin graphically describes the continuing use of strip searching in defiance of the August agreement between prison authorities and the inmates.

“I was twice subjected to forced strip searches today. That was my tenth forced rip in the last twelve weeks…. I was brought to the reception where the search team was waiting and forced into 3ftx3ft cubicle by two of them where I refused to strip…. I was then brought to a holding cell and kept in there for about 50 minute with a governor coming in twice to tell me their so-called prison rules….

All the while outside the cell the riot squad are getting ready. Suddenly the cell door bursts open and in they come in full riot gear, helmets, shields, body protection, the works. They ram the shield into my face, two of them grab my arms, another grabs my head, I’m forced to the ground - Arms forced up my back, 2 knees forced into my head to hold it down , 2 knees in the back of my legs… Then another one of them starts to force off my shoes, socks and trousers off. I’m then moved into a forced position so that my boxers are ripped down and my frontal private parts can be seen by them. I’m then forced back into a position where my boxers are completely forced off me and a hand held metal detector is ran over my backside.

At this stage, it’s hard to breathe with their gloves covering my face and mouth. I’m still being held by four of them on the floor, my private parts exposed… Naked!Stopped reading right there, I think we've entered the realm of homoerotic fantasy. Strip searches a reality of prison life anywhere, no doubt even Cuba and China.


Back to the streets
These incidents demonstrate once again that the ‘Northern Ireland’ state remains a prison house for Catholics. No amount of window dressing from Sinn Fein can alter the fact that they are jointly administering a state which continues to dish out increasing doses of repression. In the interests of ‘stability’ and ‘peace’ the Executive partners, indeed all the main political parties, will now insist on draconian cuts and have a repressive apparatus to use when workers decide to fight back.

GARC has led the way in building street protests last summer. Street protests should immediately be called through social networking and word of mouth whenever communities are under police attack as when people are summarily lifted. Residents groups will undoubtedly be faced with a need to protect their own areas. All Republicans, socialists, trade unionists and community activists should form anti repression committees and link the groups up across Ireland.And yet Sinn Fein are supported by the vast majority of Catholics and Republicans in N.I, and have played a huge part in bringing peace to one of the most troubled regions of Europe in the last few years. These 'street protests' are exactly what the communities need! :rolleyes:


A new anti imperialist movement which addresses police raids, Orange marches, political status and prisoners’ rights as well as the whole question of British presence in Ireland needs to be built. As the capitalist crisis devastates working class communities throughout the island it will be necessary to form a militant anti cuts movement as well.Maybe this 'anti Imperialist' movement should be asking why certain groups are attempting to take Northern ireland by force and terror, against the will of the vast majority of its citizens, including Catholics. And why these groups invariably devastate their 'own' communities with kneecapping and general dictatorial violence? As for 'British presence in Ireland' are you referring to the Ulster Scots? What do you propose to do with them, deportation, gas chambers.. ? And aside from the question of N.I what do you propose to do about Capitalism in the Republic of Ireland? DO you realise there are bigger cuts going on there? Do you realise they don't even vote for parties like Sinn Fein, another major blow to your 32 county socialist republic.


A militant anti cuts movement built around the need for strike action to defeat the government whilst having its own dynamic will undoubtedly face a northern state equally contemptuous of its demands. Therein lays the opportunity for socialists to link the fight against imperialism with the struggle against all the effects of a capitalist crisis. Moreover a capitalist system north and south of the border which is inextricably bound up with serving an increasingly unstable world dominated by a small number of imperialist countries. And you really believe Nationalism is the answer to defeat the 'evils of Imperialism'? Can I remind you that many of the greatest Communist nations have been accused of Imperialism, eg the USSR and China. And a central principle of Socialism is the ultimate creation of a Global Communist State. Incidentally suppression of religion is arguably another aspect of Leftist principles.

[#FF0000]

And you really believe Nationalism is the answer to defeat the 'evils of Imperialism'? Can I remind you that many of the greatest Communist nations have been accused of Imperialism, eg the USSR and China. And a central principle of Socialism is the ultimate creation of a Global Communist State. Incidentally suppression of religion is arguably another aspect of Leftist principles.

Maybe I'm being nitpicky but there is a little bit of an issue with this particular statement.

[Viet Minh]

Maybe I'm being nitpicky but there is a little bit of an issue with this particular statement.

State is the wrong word sorry, but I imagine a lot of leftists would agree with a global agenda of some sort.

[Crimson Commissar]

And you really believe Nationalism is the answer to defeat the 'evils of Imperialism'?
I can sort of sympathise with you there. I really am tired of this extreme anti-imperialist bullshit that goes on in the left, anti-imperialism is NOT the main struggle in the world, class struggle is. But that still doesn't make imperialism right in ANY way.


Can I remind you that many of the greatest Communist nations have been accused of Imperialism, eg the USSR and China
How can a socialist nation be imperialist? The USSR was trying to spread socialism to other nations. They didn't just create the Eastern Bloc so they could have some sort of evil commie empire from hell. It's sole intention was to keep capitalism out of the lands liberated by the Red Army during WW2, and to build an alliance of socialist nations to stand against the USA and western imperialism. If you're gonna bring up something like the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, that wasn't an invasion at all. Communists seized power in Afghanistan and when islamic radicalists tried to overthrow them, they asked the Soviet Army to intervene. It's not imperialism. It's just showing support for another nation which shares the socialist ideology. China is an entirely different matter though, considering they've now just become a beauracratic capitalist dictatorship which uses China's communist history to inspire nationalism and imperialism.


And a central principle of Socialism is the ultimate creation of a Global Communist State.
...How is this wrong exactly? Humanity would be much better off as one nation instead of being divided, for no real reason at all, into many small nations.


Incidentally suppression of religion is arguably another aspect of Leftist principles.
Myself being an anti-theist and a communist, I can confidently say that anti-theism is definitely NOT a position supported by the majority of Leftists. Ever since the fall of the USSR, Communists have been gradually drifting away from the true principles of Communism, and instead developing this idea of "new communism", essentially a form of communism that conforms with modern bourgeois ideas and capitalist cold-war propaganda.

[Che a chara]

This works both ways, I recently served 180 hours of community service for 'religious' breach of the peace :rolleyes: after protesting a blatantly pro-RIRA parade. The police officers told us to basically not speak, and not show any flags etc. It is the usual tactic to discourage counter-protesting which is when violence occurs.

Was this through a unionist area though or a town centre ?

The Ardoyne community on an annual basis do a survey of each household in the area to determine the amount of opposition to these deliberately provocative parades and 95%+ oppose them and support the protests. If this was the case in your example then maybe you could feel aggrieved. But the bottom line is that Irish republican parades are not done to coat trail, but to commemorate and highlight injustice in non-disputed areas.


'Catholic areas', aren't the Republicans always telling us they are open to all religions?

This article is from an international communist perspective and in historical context such catholic areas have felt the brunt of discrimination and attacks from the British state and, IMO, the author would be right in highlighting the similarities shown in the past and the aggressive reactions by the police to these protesters.

Also, there is a difference between religious tolerance and blatant religious supremacism and triumphalism and that's not including the fact that Orange Order parades have banners supporting sectarian murderers in the same area were families of the victims are still living.


If this is true it is disgraceful. However not to be overly pedantic but calling these attacks sectarian is a misnomer, the IRSP is not a strictly Catholic group, or at least doesn't claim to be, and the PSNI have a strict policy of employing at least 50% Catholics.

The above article doesn't mention that police officers subjected members of the IRSP to name calling ("Fenian bastards").

Regarding the employee ration of the RUC/PSNI, doesn't really matter as they are still 100% political even if they where 100% catholic (though the ratio as it stands at the moment is just below 30% catholic and for support staff 15%)


Stopped reading right there, I think we've entered the realm of homoerotic fantasy. Strip searches a reality of prison life anywhere, no doubt even Cuba and China.

the 'UK' prides itself on it's supposed human rights and classes itself above countries such as China and Cuba where rights are often shunted. A deal was in place to scrap these perverse and invasive strip searches in place of a more humane approach of strip search. Strip searches were never deemed to be unnecessary by Irish republicans, just the way it was carried out on a certain sect of prisoner which is degrading, humiliating and oppressive and in the majority of instances these brutal strips are carried out even when the prisoner has had no contact with another person and all the time was in the company of a screw (going to courts and video links etc). This is an attack on human rights and decency.


And yet Sinn Fein are supported by the vast majority of Catholics and Republicans in N.I, and have played a huge part in bringing peace to one of the most troubled regions of Europe in the last few years. These 'street protests' are exactly what the communities need! :rolleyes:

As revolutionaries looking to overthrow the system and the state, it is necessary to agitate and protest at every level to the ongoing oppression and exploitation of the working class. Sinn Fein matter very little when it comes to this. They have transformed into a bourgeois constitutional nationalist party administering British rule and the Tory led cuts.

The people voted for peace, but had also voted for economic stability and a change in society, which has not happened.


Maybe this 'anti Imperialist' movement should be asking why certain groups are attempting to take Northern ireland by force and terror, against the will of the vast majority of its citizens, including Catholics.

In context once again, the creation of the northern state was the gerrymandering of the border- a sectarian headcount which denied the rights of the nationalist counties in the region and the democratic rights of the 32 counties of Ireland in previous years to their right to national self determination. As Irish republicans and socialists, this is totally unacceptable.


And why these groups invariably devastate their 'own' communities with kneecapping and general dictatorial violence?

In the absence of an impartial and accountable police force, the need is sometimes there for these sorts of actions and there is indeed support for it.

£5 touts are recruited by the security services after being arrested of criminal behaviour (drug dealers, thieves etc..) and are then released and given the reign to continue their anti-social activities also long as they keep an eye and ear out of certain other activities in the area.

The police have shown time and time again that they are incapable of policing in every working class area. These areas, loyalist/unionist included, are rife with crime, poverty, drug addiction and alcohol dependency. Stormont and the British state as a whole just don't give a shit and their hopes rely on these areas becoming corrupt and divided so they can be manipulated into the system.


As for 'British presence in Ireland' are you referring to the Ulster Scots? What do you propose to do with them, deportation, gas chambers.. ?

:confused: Why is this often distorted by loyalists ? This has never been the case within Irish republicanism, or socialism/communism, as this article represents. The British presence is always referred to the military/security services, the political affiliation of Westminster and the economic and capitalist connection to the British empire.


And aside from the question of N.I what do you propose to do about Capitalism in the Republic of Ireland? DO you realise there are bigger cuts going on there?

Is this question directed at me or the author of the article ? In any case, the national question of Ireland can not be isolated from the social and economic (class struggle) struggle. It is necessary for the formation of a mass movement to combat on both fronts in the 32counties. Capitalism, cronyism and gombeenism are rife in the Free State. This must be opposed.


Do you realise they don't even vote for parties like Sinn Fein, another major blow to your 32 county socialist republic.

Sinn Fein are growing in the Free State.

Now is the time with the financial crisis and worker oppression for their to be an alignment of leftists who are capable of restructuring and vividly proposing radical reforms to the state, hence why we have seen the formation of the ULA (United Left Alliance). It remains to be seen whether they are to be accepted or if they have the right mandate applicable to all socialists but it's definitely a stepping stone.


And you really believe Nationalism is the answer to defeat the 'evils of Imperialism'?

Where did you get this idea from ? What is your definition of 'nationalism' in this case ?

I support any nation or group that fights for national liberation. But there is no real point in gaining independence, with the only noticeable change the national flag but still suffering from the same economic woes and being ruled by capitalist exploitation, domestic or otherwise.


Can I remind you that many of the greatest Communist nations have been accused of Imperialism, eg the USSR and China. And a central principle of Socialism is the ultimate creation of a Global Communist State. Incidentally suppression of religion is arguably another aspect of Leftist principles.

You'll find no-one on here who is uncritical of the USSR or China. Though I have to point out that communism has never existed.

I understand the need for religious belief/spirituality, though religion should not be used to preach hate, division or to cause any other reactionary aspect in society . A separation of religion and state is a must.

[Viet Minh]

I can sort of sympathise with you there. I really am tired of this extreme anti-imperialist bullshit that goes on in the left, anti-imperialism is NOT the main struggle in the world, class struggle is. But that still doesn't make imperialism right in ANY way.

Agreed. It can be a subjective word anyway, I suppose like all disputes it depends which side you're on.


How can a socialist nation be imperialist? The USSR was trying to spread socialism to other nations. They didn't just create the Eastern Bloc so they could have some sort of evil commie empire from hell. It's sole intention was to keep capitalism out of the lands liberated by the Red Army during WW2, and to build an alliance of socialist nations to stand against the USA and western imperialism. If you're gonna bring up something like the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, that wasn't an invasion at all. Communists seized power in Afghanistan and when islamic radicalists tried to overthrow them, they asked the Soviet Army to intervene. It's not imperialism. It's just showing support for another nation which shares the socialist ideology. China is an entirely different matter though, considering they've now just become a beauracratic capitalist dictatorship which uses China's communist history to inspire nationalism and imperialism.

I agree, I was merely pointing out that was a criticism that had been (somewhat hypocritically) levelled at the USSR and China.


...How is this wrong exactly? Humanity would be much better off as one nation instead of being divided, for no real reason at all, into many small nations.

Again, agreed.


Myself being an anti-theist and a communist, I can confidently say that anti-theism is definitely NOT a position supported by the majority of Leftists. Ever since the fall of the USSR, Communists have been gradually drifting away from the true principles of Communism, and instead developing this idea of "new communism", essentially a form of communism that conforms with modern bourgeois ideas and capitalist cold-war propaganda.

Old school Communism meant suppressing religion, as seen in the USSR against jews, and in China against Buddhists, I think any new Socialist state would be wise to take a more gentle approach, encouraging secularism rather than enforcing atheism.


Was this through a unionist area though or a town centre ?

It was in Glasgow, most areas are mixed here.


The Ardoyne community on an annual basis do a survey of each household in the area to determine the amount of opposition to these deliberately provocative parades and 95%+ oppose them and support the protests. If this was the case in your example then maybe you could feel aggrieved. But the bottom line is that Irish republican parades are not done to coat trail, but to commemorate and highlight injustice in non-disputed areas.

Some Loyalist parades fringe on Catholic areas, and some go through them, for example Drumcree. In that case the demographics changed quite rapidly, and the traditional route (used for decades previously) quite suddenly took them through a Catholic area. In Ardoyne the parade passes on the very outside of the area, near to the loyalist enclave of ardoyne, but hundreds of Republicans from all over Ardoyne gather to meet the parade with bottles and bricks etc. Someone more cynical than myself might say they are looking to feel aggrieved.


This article is from an international communist perspective and in historical context such catholic areas have felt the brunt of discrimination and attacks from the British state and, IMO, the author would be right in highlighting the similarities shown in the past and the aggressive reactions by the police to these protesters.

This article read to me like Republican propaganda more than an 'international communist perspective'. If you bothered communicating with the loyalists you'd probably find the very same grievances against the police, and if you asked some Protestants in the Free State after partition how they felt about the Garda, they couldn't answer you because they'd been murdered. Lets look forward though, history is important but only to learn from mistakes, not repeat them.


Also, there is a difference between religious tolerance and blatant religious supremacism and triumphalism and that's not including the fact that Orange Order parades have banners supporting sectarian murderers in the same area were families of the victims are still living.

Whether its so-called triumphalism or martyrism on display the result is the same; hatred, division and unfortunately in most cases violence. And please, show me just one of these banners!


The above article doesn't mention that police officers subjected members of the IRSP to name calling ("Fenian bastards").

I very much doubt that is the case, however if it were it is still not a sectarian slur, the fenian brotherhood were a nationalist organisation, the term is usually meant as a political one. For instance Sinn Fein are not defined as catholic, rather Republican.


Regarding the employee ration of the RUC/PSNI, doesn't really matter as they are still 100% political even if they where 100% catholic (though the ratio as it stands at the moment is just below 30% catholic and for support staff 15%)

I am no fan of the PSNI


the 'UK' prides itself on it's supposed human rights and classes itself above countries such as China and Cuba where rights are often shunted. A deal was in place to scrap these perverse and invasive strip searches in place of a more humane approach of strip search. Strip searches were never deemed to be unnecessary by Irish republicans, just the way it was carried out on a certain sect of prisoner which is degrading, humiliating and oppressive and in the majority of instances these brutal strips are carried out even when the prisoner has had no contact with another person and all the time was in the company of a screw (going to courts and video links etc). This is an attack on human rights and decency.

Again I am not speaking in support of the Prisons Service N.I or Police Service N.I but the article implied there were different customs applied to loyalists and republicans. No doubt there were in the past, particularly during the troubles but to the best of my knowledge there are not now. And lest not forget some of these people are in prison for murdering innocent civilians, protestant and catholic. There are frequently murders inside the prisons too, security has to be tight.
And briefly, you advocate uniting with the Republic of Ireland, which I imagine has similar practices.


As revolutionaries looking to overthrow the system and the state, it is necessary to agitate and protest at every level to the ongoing oppression and exploitation of the working class. Sinn Fein matter very little when it comes to this. They have transformed into a bourgeois constitutional nationalist party administering British rule and the Tory led cuts.

I'm not a Toraidh either. Sinn Fein are my enemy, politically and morally, but you cannot deny that in Northern Ireland, for the first time in a long time, things are a lot more peaceful and progressive. Much of that is down to power-sharing.


The people voted for peace, but had also voted for economic stability and a change in society, which has not happened.

The Government can't force change, peoples attitudes need to change. The loyalists need to stop thinking the fenians are out to bomb them in their beds, and the republicans need to stop thinking the entire world are dirty orange bastard freemason jewish nazis out to opress them. How many more generations need to spend their lives in misery due to sectarian conflict?


In context once again, the creation of the northern state was the gerrymandering of the border- a sectarian headcount which denied the rights of the nationalist counties in the region and the democratic rights of the 32 counties of Ireland in previous years to their right to national self determination. As Irish republicans and socialists, this is totally unacceptable.

And yet it is acceptable to bomb and kill innocent civilians to take over the region, not only proddy bastards but also your 'own people' too? There was never a United Ireland, except under British rule, so to 'return' to that is not only reactionary it is nonsensical. Gerrymandering is a thing of the past now, what you need to do is stop calling people names and dredging up the past, who knows maybe some loyalists will see the benefits of joining the Free State and vote for you?


In the absence of an impartial and accountable police force, the need is sometimes there for these sorts of actions and there is indeed support for it.

£5 touts are recruited by the security services after being arrested of criminal behaviour (drug dealers, thieves etc..) and are then released and given the reign to continue their anti-social activities also long as they keep an eye and ear out of certain other activities in the area.

But the fundamental fact is getting kneecapped for dealing drugs is far from socialist, to my understanding at least..


The police have shown time and time again that they are incapable of policing in every working class area. These areas, loyalist/unionist included, are rife with crime, poverty, drug addiction and alcohol dependency. Stormont and the British state as a whole just don't give a shit and their hopes rely on these areas becoming corrupt and divided so they can be manipulated into the system.

And you think it will be all fun and games in a United Ireland? There would be another civil war, whatever your politics seeing dead bodies on your street is not something I think you are prepared for. I may be wrong.


:confused: Why is this often distorted by loyalists ? This has never been the case within Irish republicanism, or socialism/communism, as this article represents. The British presence is always referred to the military/security services, the political affiliation of Westminster and the economic and capitalist connection to the British empire.

Because Ireland is not Capitalist in the least!


Is this question directed at me or the author of the article ? In any case, the national question of Ireland can not be isolated from the social and economic (class struggle) struggle. It is necessary for the formation of a mass movement to combat on both fronts in the 32counties. Capitalism, cronyism and gombeenism are rife in the Free State. This must be opposed.

Like I've said before, you set up your 26 county anarcho-socialist Utopia, then maybe we'll join you.


Sinn Fein are growing in the Free State.

Now is the time with the financial crisis and worker oppression for their to be an alignment of leftists who are capable of restructuring and vividly proposing radical reforms to the state, hence why we have seen the formation of the ULA (United Left Alliance). It remains to be seen whether they are to be accepted or if they have the right mandate applicable to all socialists but it's definitely a stepping stone.

I thought Fine Gael just got into power? Mind you I wasn't paying much attention.


Where did you get this idea from ? What is your definition of 'nationalism' in this case ?

I support any nation or group that fights for national liberation. But there is no real point in gaining independence, with the only noticeable change the national flag but still suffering from the same economic woes and being ruled by capitalist exploitation, domestic or otherwise.

Nationalism, as in 'Brits out now'. And I agree, you'd still be Brussels's ***** now anyway, doesn't make much difference. :(


You'll find no-one on here who is uncritical of the USSR or China. Though I have to point out that communism has never existed.

I understand the need for religious belief/spirituality, though religion should not be used to preach hate, division or to cause any other reactionary aspect in society . A separation of religion and state is a must.

Agreed. Of course religions by their very nature divide us. The first thing that needs to change is faith schooling, religious apartheid amongst children is NOT acceptable!

[Che a chara]

It was in Glasgow, most areas are mixed here.

I don't know why you were charged, but you were within your rights to protest.

There has been 40 arrests and charges for those who took part in the peaceful sit-down protest in Ardoyne.


This article read to me like Republican propaganda more than an 'international communist perspective'.

Honestly, the left and socialists are usually sympathetic to the cause of Irish republicanism, as it's goals and actions were the product of oppression and imperialism.


Some Loyalist parades fringe on Catholic areas, and some go through them, for example Drumcree. In that case the demographics changed quite rapidly, and the traditional route (used for decades previously) quite suddenly took them through a Catholic area. In Ardoyne the parade passes on the very outside of the area, near to the loyalist enclave of ardoyne, but hundreds of Republicans from all over Ardoyne gather to meet the parade with bottles and bricks etc. Someone more cynical than myself might say they are looking to feel aggrieved.


If you bothered communicating with the loyalists you'd probably find the very same grievances against the police,

What real legitimate grievances do loyalists hold against the police though ? It has been documented that some within loyalism think that they should still be favoured as they were in the past, because of the supposed connection with 'Britishness' and the allegiance to the Queen. This also goes for the media which was staunchly pro-unionist in the past, but has now become more liberal.

What grievances do you think Irish republicans and loyalists share regarding the police ?


and if you asked some Protestants in the Free State after partition how they felt about the Garda, they couldn't answer you because they'd been murdered.

Eh ? When were Protestants systematically murdered or oppressed by the Gardai, or even by Irish republicans in the Free State ??


Whether its so-called triumphalism or martyrism on display the result is the same; hatred, division and unfortunately in most cases violence.

Lets look at the situation regarding Orange and Loyal order parades in contentious areas- During these parades, residents are heemed into their own homes with children unable to play in their streets. Surrounding shops and businesses are advised to close and lose out on trade, yet the Orange Order refuses to take part in any dialogue with the residents, that itself speaks volumes especially given the fact that the police and the OO knows it will incite violence. Surely dialogue and common sense should prevail. You don't see Irish republican or AoH parades zealously march through the Shankill or any contentious area.


And please, show me just one of these banners!

The Shankill Star band which commemorates UVF man Brian Robinson:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2cmrty0.jpg

Recently even the Orange Order has also admitted that other banners over the years have been hurled commemorating other UVF men Sam Rocket and William Hanna by the The Pride of Ardoyne Flute Band and in the past also a banner commemorating UVF man Noel Kinner has also been displayed by the Scottish Sons of Ulster Flute Band. These are just a couple of examples.


I very much doubt that is the case, however if it were it is still not a sectarian slur, the fenian brotherhood were a nationalist organisation, the term is usually meant as a political one.

It's historical context may have that meaning, but it's usage today is offensive and is actually seen as a hate crime (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7206891.stm)(the same as using the slur 'huns').


For instance Sinn Fein are not defined as catholic, rather Republican.

Unless you're the legend that is Willie Frazer were everyone else is a Catholic extremist :lol:


I am no fan of the PSNI

:) What would you propose as an alternative ?


Again I am not speaking in support of the Prisons Service N.I or Police Service N.I but the article implied there were different customs applied to loyalists and republicans. No doubt there were in the past, particularly during the troubles but to the best of my knowledge there are not now.

The deterioration of conditions in gaols like Maghaberry is no secret. Calls have been made by everyone to implement drastic reforms and changes within the prison system.

23 hour lock ups, physical attacks and degrading treatment to Irish republican prisoners has been a regular occurrence. This has in the last 12 months resulted in prison riots, hunger strikes, and dirty protests, in which the prison authorities recognised and promised changes. The Prisoners Officer Association undermine any agreements reached and still subject Irish republican prisoners to many abuses.


And lest not forget some of these people are in prison for murdering innocent civilians, protestant and catholic.

Whom do you speak of here ?


There are frequently murders inside the prisons too, security has to be tight.

This does not happen in gaols in the north. The only deaths are suicide.


And briefly, you advocate uniting with the Republic of Ireland, which I imagine has similar practices.

I don't envisage a UI under the current circumstances. You'll find a small minority of Irish republicans that actually support unification with the current Free State and it's institutions. most Irish republican organistions have their own outlook, such as 'Eire Nua (http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm)' (by RSF), a socialist revolution (IRSP, eirigi), or a radical reform of institutions.


I'm not a Toraidh either. Sinn Fein are my enemy, politically and morally, but you cannot deny that in Northern Ireland, for the first time in a long time, things are a lot more peaceful and progressive. Much of that is down to power-sharing.

You might have opposition to Provisional Sinn Fein, but as I said previously, they were a creation of the oppressive policies of the time which denied civil rights and liberties. Power-sharing with such marginalised and censored groups should have happened decades earlier, but this was excluded by the British and unionist government.

Sure now might be more progressive in comparison, but what wouldn't be ? It is not progressive in any democratic or social sense. Many rights are still being exploited.


The Government can't force change, peoples attitudes need to change. The loyalists need to stop thinking the fenians are out to bomb them in their beds, and the republicans need to stop thinking the entire world are dirty orange bastard freemason jewish nazis out to opress them. How many more generations need to spend their lives in misery due to sectarian conflict?

The sectarian conflict is enhanced and played by the establishment. It is how it survives. Stormont is a bitiching session. There is no opposition to capitalism. Working class unity and working class politics should be promoted. The most poverty stricken areas are also loyalist working class areas.... what does that tell you ? Yet we don't see a united front discussing the root of the problems in society.


And yet it is acceptable to bomb and kill innocent civilians to take over the region, not only proddy bastards but also your 'own people' too?

Religion has nothing to do with the struggle by Irish republicans.

I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, but I think as of late we have seen a smaller campaign being directed to the streets where attacks being carried out in which it seems to limit injury or casualty to innocent civilians. I don't think armed struggle is the way forward, the conditions do not exist and it only leads to imprisonment and harrassment to Irish republicans and their families, but the reality of the situation whether or not anyone agrees with it is the old saying "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace".

What do you think drives the youth towards militant republicanism ? Mostly it's the social and decaying conditions of society.


There was never a United Ireland, except under British rule, so to 'return' to that is not only reactionary it is nonsensical.

Ireland has never been split until partition. It was always one entity. The will of the vast, vast majority of the Irish people over generations has been for them to have self determination, but this has always been forcefully rejected by invading armies/governments. the 1918 Irish election is an example of such when Sinn Fein would have been denied their voice for unity despite securing majority votes.

Democracy has meant nothing to the British government since their 'appearance' In Ireland.

It can also be argued that King Brian Boru had the island of Ireland under a single Irish rule.


Gerrymandering is a thing of the past now, what you need to do is stop calling people names and dredging up the past, who knows maybe some loyalists will see the benefits of joining the Free State and vote for you?

Again, it is not my or any Irish republican/socialist groups intention of joining the Free State and it's current institutions.


But the fundamental fact is getting kneecapped for dealing drugs is far from socialist, to my understanding at least..

Well these groups don't describe themselves as socialist. Their actions are understandable at times, but are indeed reactionary also. The behaviour of these anti-social elements are for the most of the time the product of poverty, unemployment and homelessness caused by capitalism- this is what every activist should be organising against instead of punishment attacks for minor offences.


And you think it will be all fun and games in a United Ireland? There would be another civil war, whatever your politics seeing dead bodies on your street is not something I think you are prepared for. I may be wrong.

Why do you assume there will be a civil war ? That's not the best mindset to be of, especially as no-one knows what kind of society a UI would bring. Why would there be dead bodies ? a UI wont be like the creation of the north, it would be all inclusive and supportive of religious and cultural rights for all it's citizens.

I'm not naive to suggest that there wont be opposition, but i'd be of the opinion that it would be a very progressive country with many concessions to unionists.


Because Ireland is not Capitalist in the least!

Not capitalist ? Privately owned businesses, means of production privately controlled, a free market, non-nationalised banks, workers rights trampled on, NAMA, the IMF and the EU. Corrupt bankers, politicians, elite businessmen and landlords profiteering and bankrupting the state, with the working class paying for those parasites....

What would you call it ?


Like I've said before, you set up your 26 county anarcho-socialist Utopia, then maybe we'll join you.

This is the sort of divisive attitude that Stormont feeds on. What do you want to happen with the north ? I'd like to hear your solutions to the divisions and bigotry and denials of rights....


I thought Fine Gael just got into power? Mind you I wasn't paying much attention.

FG have got into power indeed, but Sinn Fein have grown rapidly. They are more progressive and socialist orientated in the south.


Nationalism, as in 'Brits out now'. And I agree, you'd still be Brussels's ***** now anyway, doesn't make much difference. :(

Brussels; that's a stumbling block. But a socialist revolution would see workers seize power and dismantle any claim to sovereignty by the EU. Many in the 26 counties are now seeing the many negatives that have come with the EU.....


Agreed. Of course religions by their very nature divide us. The first thing that needs to change is faith schooling, religious apartheid amongst children is NOT acceptable!

I agree. In the North the only legitimate reason that can be used now for use of catholic schooling is the high standard of it's education. Even though it is permissible for non-catholics to enroll, it still has faith based lessons which now needs to be done away with.

[Bud Struggle]

So what is it exactly that the Irish want in the short term? A united Ireland free from Britain? A separate country of Northern Ireland? (I know the long term--all that Communism stuff.)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Bud, for most of these things the short term is immediate transfer of land control to the dominant ethnicities/religious group (only those that legitemately exist, not the illegitemate ones of course), before everyone gets in bed together and things like ethnicity don't matter anymore.

[Viet Minh]

I don't know why you were charged, but you were within your rights to protest.

There has been 40 arrests and charges for those who took part in the peaceful sit-down protest in Ardoyne.

Counter protests are legal, as long as they are pre-arranegd with the police and do not block public highways. I made the mistake of flying a flag of the orange order, who had been attacked the previous week in the saltmarket. The police officer told me to 'get that shit out of my face' and forcibly shoved me against a wall.


Honestly, the left and socialists are usually sympathetic to the cause of Irish republicanism, as it's goals and actions were the product of oppression and imperialism.

I'm well aware of that, loyalists have very little international support, the majority of the right support Irish Nationalists as well.


What real legitimate grievances do loyalists hold against the police though ? It has been documented that some within loyalism think that they should still be favoured as they were in the past, because of the supposed connection with 'Britishness' and the allegiance to the Queen. This also goes for the media which was staunchly pro-unionist in the past, but has now become more liberal.

What grievances do you think Irish republicans and loyalists share regarding the police ?

Loyalist have plenty reason to feel grievance, both against the police and British Army. However its seen as a lesser evil than a United Ireland, run by groups like Sinn Fein. The media in my lifetime has been fairly even-handed, if anything I tend to read more negative press about loyalists, and there are a huge number of british media personalities who vocally support republicans. And I find generally in the Republic of Ireland the media is very pro-Republican, why should Britain be different?


Eh ? When were Protestants systematically murdered or oppressed by the Gardai, or even by Irish republicans in the Free State ??

There were numerous instances of protestants being persecuted after partition, and collusion between nationalists and gardai, Irish Army, and Government (the Modern Dail stems from the old IRA)


Lets look at the situation regarding Orange and Loyal order parades in contentious areas- During these parades, residents are heemed into their own homes with children unable to play in their streets. Surrounding shops and businesses are advised to close and lose out on trade, yet the Orange Order refuses to take part in any dialogue with the residents, that itself speaks volumes especially given the fact that the police and the OO knows it will incite violence. Surely dialogue and common sense should prevail. You don't see Irish republican or AoH parades zealously march through the Shankill or any contentious area.

There are very few parades which go right through nationalist areas, those that do as previously mentioned are traditional routes going back decades. If you can't tolerate an orange walk once a year, what chance do you have for a peaceful united ireland? And yes republican parades have been known to go through loyalist areas.


The Shankill Star band which commemorates UVF man Brian Robinson:

Recently even the Orange Order has also admitted that other banners over the years have been hurled commemorating other UVF men Sam Rocket and William Hanna by the The Pride of Ardoyne Flute Band and in the past also a banner commemorating UVF man Noel Kinner has also been displayed by the Scottish Sons of Ulster Flute Band. These are just a couple of examples.

There are many examples of republican flute bands commemorating IRA volunteers.



It's historical context may have that meaning, but it's usage today is offensive and is actually seen as a hate crime (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7206891.stm)(the same as using the slur 'huns').

Huns is not a religious or even political term, it comes from an old article in england describing rioting rangers fans as like a horde of huns. Dirty Orange Bastard and the like would be equivalent terms.


:) What would you propose as an alternative ?

I don't propose an alternative, just radical improvements. They have a difficult job though I won't pretend I could do much better.


The deterioration of conditions in gaols like Maghaberry is no secret. Calls have been made by everyone to implement drastic reforms and changes within the prison system.

23 hour lock ups, physical attacks and degrading treatment to Irish republican prisoners has been a regular occurrence. This has in the last 12 months resulted in prison riots, hunger strikes, and dirty protests, in which the prison authorities recognised and promised changes. The Prisoners Officer Association undermine any agreements reached and still subject Irish republican prisoners to many abuses.

Loyalist prisoners don't exactly have 5 start treatment either, remember loyalists joined the initial protests. The British state set Billy Wright up for murder.


Whom do you speak of here ?

Are you suggesting that not a single Republican prisoner has actually kileld someone? Because there are many hundreds of people dead, Catholic and Protestant, and claimed by Republican groups. If you know who is actually responsible I suggest you tell someone so an innocent person can go free.



This does not happen in gaols in the north. The only deaths are suicide.

Again, read up on Billy Wright


I don't envisage a UI under the current circumstances. You'll find a small minority of Irish republicans that actually support unification with the current Free State and it's institutions. most Irish republican organistions have their own outlook, such as 'Eire Nua (http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm)' (by RSF), a socialist revolution (IRSP, eirigi), or a radical reform of institutions.

I'm not altogether familiar with these concepts, the ultimate aim is a United Ireland however. And I'm sure many loyalists would be sceptical of any plans by IRSP or RSF, given their links to RIRA and INLA respectively


You might have opposition to Provisional Sinn Fein, but as I said previously, they were a creation of the oppressive policies of the time which denied civil rights and liberties. Power-sharing with such marginalised and censored groups should have happened decades earlier, but this was excluded by the British and unionist government.

The offer was always there for power-sharing, it was SF who were last to accept. Although of course many Unionists are opposed to power-sharing, having been under attack by Nationalists for hundreds of years. There was a general feeling that the DUP had 'surrendered' to terrorism, although people might be a little more open now with a general feeling of peace and progression, with the exception of groups like RSF/ RIRA etc, who have little support anyway.


Sure now might be more progressive in comparison, but what wouldn't be ? It is not progressive in any democratic or social sense. Many rights are still being exploited.

Which rights specifically? Many nations with groups like the IRA just kill them outright, I would say Britain is rather progressive compared to most. For instance people from Palestine might find it amusing you still talk about Bloody Sunday, there it probably means last Sunday.

In Ireland there was widespread anti-semitism, and as previously mentioned anti-Protestantism. Single pregnant young women were essentially imprisoned, and homosexuality wasn't legalised until the 90's.


The sectarian conflict is enhanced and played by the establishment. It is how it survives. Stormont is a bitiching session. There is no opposition to capitalism. Working class unity and working class politics should be promoted. The most poverty stricken areas are also loyalist working class areas.... what does that tell you ? Yet we don't see a united front discussing the root of the problems in society.

As far as I can tell the British Government don't care about the conflict, much less 'play it'. If anyone plays it it's extremist groups like RIRA, who use outdated propaganda to fuel division and hatred and bitterness. They thrive on conflict, their message is meaningless without it.


Religion has nothing to do with the struggle by Irish republicans.

There have been instances of the IRA colluding with the Catholic church, but generally yes that's true.


I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, but I think as of late we have seen a smaller campaign being directed to the streets where attacks being carried out in which it seems to limit injury or casualty to innocent civilians. I don't think armed struggle is the way forward, the conditions do not exist and it only leads to imprisonment and harrassment to Irish republicans and their families, but the reality of the situation whether or not anyone agrees with it is the old saying "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace".

I think thats a self-fulfilling prophecy, as are some aspects of sectarianism, on both sides. I think the situation has changed now, with modern policing, CCTV, DNA profiling etc its gettign harder and harder to mount a rebellion. Plus I think there's far more integration, its harder to dehumanise your enemy when most people actually know them personally. Not to mention changing social trends generally, finally the hippy 60's peace and equality and shit seems to have reached Ireland.


What do you think drives the youth towards militant republicanism ? Mostly it's the social and decaying conditions of society.

I would argue conditions are getting better, most of the youths today seem happier to play computer games, if anything the militant republicanism is almost entirely on the internet nowadays. The internet republican army is out in force here as well I see!


Ireland has never been split until partition. It was always one entity. The will of the vast, vast majority of the Irish people over generations has been for them to have self determination, but this has always been forcefully rejected by invading armies/governments. the 1918 Irish election is an example of such when Sinn Fein would have been denied their voice for unity despite securing majority votes.

Historically the four counties were separate, however thats a very long time ago, there's no point looking back. Yes the majority of Ireland wanted Indpendence, and they got it, I fully condone that, if I didn't I wouldn't have quoted Churchill in my signature. The Ulster Scots were the exception though, the majority wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom, and still do.


Democracy has meant nothing to the British government since their 'appearance' In Ireland.

And you believe the IRA bombing and killing people to secure control of the region is Democratic?


It can also be argued that King Brian Boru had the island of Ireland under a single Irish rule.

It could also be argued that Cromwell had Ireland under a Democratic anti-Monarchist rule. It depends on your viewpoint


Again, it is not my or any Irish republican/socialist groups intention of joining the Free State and it's current institutions.

So tell me what exactly do you want?


Well these groups don't describe themselves as socialist. Their actions are understandable at times, but are indeed reactionary also. The behaviour of these anti-social elements are for the most of the time the product of poverty, unemployment and homelessness caused by capitalism- this is what every activist should be organising against instead of punishment attacks for minor offences.

Agreed.


Why do you assume there will be a civil war ? That's not the best mindset to be of, especially as no-one knows what kind of society a UI would bring. Why would there be dead bodies ? a UI wont be like the creation of the north, it would be all inclusive and supportive of religious and cultural rights for all it's citizens.

So you guarantee if there was an Orange Order parade there would be no violence from Republicans? Because I vaguely remember all hell breaking loose in Dublin at the thought.. The north is all inclusive and supportive of religious and cultural rights, you know how well thats worked out!


I'm not naive to suggest that there wont be opposition, but i'd be of the opinion that it would be a very progressive country with many concessions to unionists.

Well you have a strange way of showing it, most Republican groups slander loyalist culture at every opportunity.


Not capitalist ? Privately owned businesses, means of production privately controlled, a free market, non-nationalised banks, workers rights trampled on, NAMA, the IMF and the EU. Corrupt bankers, politicians, elite businessmen and landlords profiteering and bankrupting the state, with the working class paying for those parasites....

What would you call it ?

I was being sarcastic. I simply meant tidy up your 'own' backyard before ciriticising ours..


This is the sort of divisive attitude that Stormont feeds on. What do you want to happen with the north ? I'd like to hear your solutions to the divisions and bigotry and denials of rights....

Stormont has a responisibilty to the Government to keep peace and law and order, the only ones who prosper from conflict are the nationalist movement.
I would like to abolish catholic schooling (and protestant schooling if such a thing exists) and create mixed secular schools. I would like to see Catholics and protestants, loyalists and nationalists alike reject the extremists and work together to better their lives. I would like communities to stand up to thugs like the IRA and UDA. Arguably this is already happening with 'groups' of 'Hoods', a vaguely anarchist proletariat movement, if you can call it that, whose tagline is 'fuck all paramilitaries' (yes, fap) and include catholics and protestants, divided only by areas. I would like to see the unions fight for their rights like they did in the workers strike, and I would like to see the Uslter loyalists and Republicans work together to make Britain a truly Democratic country, which at the moment I'm sure we can all agree it is far from being.


FG have got into power indeed, but Sinn Fein have grown rapidly. They are more progressive and socialist orientated in the south.

Some polls still sugegst a lot of Southerners wouldn't want to be united with N.I.


Brussels; that's a stumbling block. But a socialist revolution would see workers seize power and dismantle any claim to sovereignty by the EU. Many in the 26 counties are now seeing the many negatives that have come with the EU.....

Unfortunately Ireland depend on them for a huge amount of income. A Socialist revolution is all very well, but I'm not convinced there's even enough farmland to actually feed the entire population of Ireland, without outside trade, but again, trading for what?


I agree. In the North the only legitimate reason that can be used now for use of catholic schooling is the high standard of it's education. Even though it is permissible for non-catholics to enroll, it still has faith based lessons which now needs to be done away with.

Those are still State schools, so the teachers would simply transfer schools, or it may be as simple as a slight name and curriculum change. Of course there's a huge danger of this being portrayed as an attack upon Catholics as well.



Bud, for most of these things the short term is immediate transfer of land control to the dominant ethnicities/religious group (only those that legitemately exist, not the illegitemate ones of course), before everyone gets in bed together and things like ethnicity don't matter anymore.

Wait you lost me, who is illegitimate? :confused: What ethnic groups are we talking about? :confused: :confused:

[Che a chara]

I'm well aware of that, loyalists have very little international support, the majority of the right support Irish Nationalists as well.

True... except the British right....


The media in my lifetime has been fairly even-handed, if anything I tend to read more negative press about loyalists, and there are a huge number of british media personalities who vocally support republicans.

the BBC and UTV are still very much pro-establishment. For sure they're more impartial now, but I think you'll still see a lot more air time for unionist politicians and unionist politics, because they are also pro-establishment. In the past you could see the real bias these outlets had, with propaganda and censorship rife.


And I find generally in the Republic of Ireland the media is very pro-Republican, why should Britain be different?

Funnily enough within Irish republicansim you'll see the Free State media and the government as being labelled as 'West Brit' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Brit) :lol: Sinn Fein don't get very much air time either. It's not uncommon for RTE to cut short their interviews or speeches in Leinster House. Unless of course you think that Fianna Fail are the representatives of modern Irish republicanism (which they themselves think), to which yes, they get a lot of Free State media attention ;).

Sure even the Free state media and mainstream politicians support the impending visit of the queen.

I'd say the media in an overall sense is corporatist and biased towards the ruling elite.


There were numerous instances of protestants being persecuted after partition, and collusion between nationalists and gardai, Irish Army, and Government (the Modern Dail stems from the old IRA)

I'm not denying that there was a few isolated incidents in discrimination and attacks, but I'd be very surprised if there was collusion between the state and the IRA against protestants. Are there any documented events or indeed have their ever been an inquiry or a credible report to support these claims ?


There are very few parades which go right through nationalist areas, those that do as previously mentioned are traditional routes going back decades. If you can't tolerate an orange walk once a year, what chance do you have for a peaceful united ireland? And yes republican parades have been known to go through loyalist areas.

Tolerating an orange march is one thing, but hemming residents, families and children into their homes while businesses and shops shut is another especially if the OO fail to enter into any dialogue with the residents. How far back do you say would be traditional ? Would you support the Catholic Church and their traditional policies? Is there no room for progressivism or common sense?

When have Irish republican parades gone through loyalist areas ? if there has been any contentious parades, i hope they have stopped and common sense have prevailed.



Huns is not a religious or even political term, it comes from an old article in england describing rioting rangers fans as like a horde of huns. Dirty Orange Bastard and the like would be equivalent terms.

outlawed now mate.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7206891.stm)


Loyalist prisoners don't exactly have 5 start treatment either, remember loyalists joined the initial protests.

Of course loyalist prisoners didn't have 5 star treatment either, but how many loyalist prisoners currently are there inside for political offences now and who suffer the same abuses ? None.


The British state set Billy Wright up for murder.

Billy Wright was executed by the INLA. There was no state/prison collusion. An inquest was carried out and refuted any of these doubts.


Are you suggesting that not a single Republican prisoner has actually kileld someone? Because there are many hundreds of people dead, Catholic and Protestant, and claimed by Republican groups. If you know who is actually responsible I suggest you tell someone so an innocent person can go free.

Those who have murdered innocent civilians deserved to be punished. An attack on a member of the occupying crown forces though is not an attack on an innocent civilian, no matter if you or I agree with the strategy of using force at this time (which I don't).


Again, read up on Billy Wright

This is one example, hardy “frequently” . I hear of very, very littler murders in gaols in Ireland, north or south.


I'm not altogether familiar with these concepts, the ultimate aim is a United Ireland however. And I'm sure many loyalists would be sceptical of any plans by IRSP or RSF, given their links to RIRA and INLA respectively

I understand the suspicion of unionists and loyalists towards a United Ireland especially from their viewpoint against the more militant republican groups and their policies, but I do suggest that you have a wee read up on them if you want or if you have time (not a brainwashing episode by the way!!) -- They aren't proposing this big fenian Irish catholic discriminatory Ireland that many would be sceptical of. (oh and RSF = CIRA :) )


The offer was always there for power-sharing, it was SF who were last to accept. Although of course many Unionists are opposed to power-sharing, having been under attack by Nationalists for hundreds of years. There was a general feeling that the DUP had 'surrendered' to terrorism, although people might be a little more open now with a general feeling of peace and progression, with the exception of groups like RSF/ RIRA etc, who have little support anyway.

Sinn Fein were always excluded from power-sharing. The rights which of the community they represented where always being denied. Many political commentators and those in moderate unionism these days are in agreement now that Ian Paisley's rhetoric and intolerant views should have mellowed 20 years sooner, then we would have seen the conflict dilute and power-sharing come sooner. His rabble rousing was very contagious.


Which rights specifically?

Workers rights. Minority language rights, which includes the native Irish language which was enshrined into the GFA which is still venomously discriminated against by unionism. Segregated schooling (children's rights), segregated estate areas (residents rights), political biasness and democracy still gets a kick in the teeth via Westminster who have no mandate in the north.


Many nations with groups like the IRA just kill them outright, I would say Britain is rather progressive compared to most.

Many nations would invade another country and prop up an oppressive and discriminatory government then kill the resistance? Yeah the British do do that, as do the USA and to an extent Israel. Why should the IRA have been killed outright when they where defending a repressed people and fighting for national liberation? That's imperialist talk dude.


For instance people from Palestine might find it amusing you still talk about Bloody Sunday, there it probably means last Sunday.

Which is why there is very vocal support from within Irish republicanism for oppressed and exploited countries worldwide.

"Bloody Sunday every Sunday" :)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5568/irspbanner05a.jpg



In Ireland there was widespread anti-semitism, and as previously mentioned anti-Protestantism. Single pregnant young women were essentially imprisoned, and homosexuality wasn't legalised until the 90's.

Yeah of course the Free State government had certain right-wing views, this was abhorrent, but thankfully it wasn't representative of the majority of the population but a minority within the government and the religious nuts and indeed it still does have certain discriminatory legislations, which needs to be drastically changed.


As far as I can tell the British Government don't care about the conflict, much less 'play it'. If anyone plays it it's extremist groups like RIRA, who use outdated propaganda to fuel division and hatred and bitterness. They thrive on conflict, their message is meaningless without it.

the RIRA do play their part in the division, but to downplay the role of the British establishment inclusive of Stormont is misleading. One look at an afternoon in Stormont and you can see the tensions and obvious divisions are already there. The intolerance is still very much in form despite 'power-sharing'.

But again, the main recruiting card for the likes of the RIRA is the economic and social inequalities and the alienation that is created by this divided society we live in. Yet Stormont seem oblivious to these problems, and just concerns itself with tribalism.


I would argue conditions are getting better, most of the youths today seem happier to play computer games, if anything the militant republicanism is almost entirely on the internet nowadays.

But these conditions are not fullfliing or are they in the interests of the working class. This materialist world of possessions, xboxes, x-factor and celebrity culture etc. is brain draining. I don't think we should be too supportive of youths being diverted by these 'better conditions'.


The internet republican army is out in force here as well I see!

Be as that may but that might be because we support the oppressed and the occupied :)



The Ulster Scots were the exception though, the majority wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom, and still do.

I understand the connection. But say for instance in the future it was in the interests of the unionist working class for an alternative to the union, would you be supportive, or be sceptical but intrigued, or would you just rather keep on living in a decaying society?

I wouldn't be very supportive of a United Ireland tomorrow....


And you believe the IRA bombing and killing people to secure control of the region is Democratic?

No, it was a legitimate tactic in the past to smash the Orange state and fight for emancipation.


So tell me what exactly do you want?

A 32county socialist republic. A secular nation. No bosses. No borders. No divisions or exploitation..... hopefully.


So you guarantee if there was an Orange Order parade there would be no violence from Republicans? Because I vaguely remember all hell breaking loose in Dublin at the thought..

In a future United Ireland I hope that an Orange Order march would be allowed. Its current usage is triumphant and very provocative. The 'Love Ulster' fiasco in Dublin was anything but about love. A bigoted and very biased Willie Frazer led loyalists and Orange Order members through the Dublin streets with a very clear agenda using 'victims of irish republicans' as a mask to provoke and incite a reaction.


The north is all inclusive and supportive of religious and cultural rights, you know how well thats worked out!

I hope thats more sarcasm !!!


Well you have a strange way of showing it, most Republican groups slander loyalist culture at every opportunity.

It is normally seen as supremacist and imperialist and where I am from it's not very inclusive, and it is promoted and used in a triumphant and off-putting way.

As i said previously, concessions would be made, so what within loyalist culture do you think would be censored in a United Ireland ?


Stormont has a responisibilty to the Government to keep peace and law and order, the only ones who prosper from conflict are the nationalist movement.
I would like to abolish catholic schooling (and protestant schooling if such a thing exists) and create mixed secular schools. I would like to see Catholics and protestants, loyalists and nationalists alike reject the extremists and work together to better their lives. I would like communities to stand up to thugs like the IRA and UDA. Arguably this is already happening with 'groups' of 'Hoods', a vaguely anarchist proletariat movement, if you can call it that, whose tagline is 'fuck all paramilitaries' (yes, fap) and include catholics and protestants, divided only by areas. I would like to see the unions fight for their rights like they did in the workers strike, and I would like to see the Uslter loyalists and Republicans work together to make Britain a truly Democratic country, which at the moment I'm sure we can all agree it is far from being.

All very noble dude, but not really what Marxists want. Britian is imperialist and capitalist.

Class war all the way baby!! :thumbup1:


Some polls still sugegst a lot of Southerners wouldn't want to be united with N.I.

What polls would these be?

As we see from the recent elections Sinn Fein are growing. It also seems to have upset their unionist brothers in the north who have been vocal, dismissive and at the same time have gone on the defensive and offensive about their gains !!


Unfortunately Ireland depend on them for a huge amount of income. A Socialist revolution is all very well, but I'm not convinced there's even enough farmland to actually feed the entire population of Ireland, without outside trade, but again, trading for what?

Nationalising the banks and expropriating the wealth would be an ideal place to start.

Being forced to rely solely on the Irish population, a socialist government would have to address the needs of it's citizens instead of international exploiters and capitalists. I know its not the best example but Cuba are able to be sufficient enough to survive, and I would doubt that there would be EU embargoes placed on a socialist Ireland. But in saying that I would be hopeful of Ireland not being isolated as a socialist nation, and any future revolution would hopefully have domino effect. Plus Ireland has very little political or ecominic enemies/competitors, so I would also say they would receive some support and aid.


Those are still State schools, so the teachers would simply transfer schools, or it may be as simple as a slight name and curriculum change. Of course there's a huge danger of this being portrayed as an attack upon Catholics as well.

In Ireland anyway, Catholic schools are partly funded by the state but are not state schools. most are privately owned by religious investors and by the Catholic Church


Of course there's a huge danger of this being portrayed as an attack upon Catholics as well.

I would hope not, as in the past there was a need for catholic education because of discrimination against Catholics in education, but this is not the case now so any continuing support for segregated schooling and why someone would see the need for Catholic teaching in schools would need to be queried.

[Che a chara]

The 'same old police' were the target for a gun attack in Derry on Wednesday night .....


BREAKING NEWS - Real IRA admit gun attack (http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/breaking_news_real_ira_admit_gun_attack_1_2470253)

Published on Fri Mar 04 09:59:52 GMT 2011

The Real IRA in Derry has said it was behind Wednesday night’s gun attack on PSNI officers in the Glen Road area of the city and warned that more attacks will follow.

In a statement, the group also denied police reports that civilians were in the immediate vicinity when the shots were fired.

A spokesperson for the dissident republican group, using a recognised codeword, claimed its “volunteers” waited until civilians had left the area before opening fire.

“We tried to engage them on two occasions but they were surrounded by civilians, including children, and were forced to pull back. The volunteers then engaged the police officers when they got in the car and their vehicle was hit by six rounds. When they did engage there was no civilians around the target.

“The fact that the volunteers pulled back when they were in a closer position undoubtedly saved the lives of the police officers,” the group stated.

The dissident group claimed the PSNI use civilians as “shields” when responding to call outs. “They deliberately surround themselves with civilians, especially young people, who they use as shields.

“We reiterate our call for people to stay away from the British police and we call on parents to tell their children to stay away from them and not allow themselves to be used as shields,” the spokesperson said.

Rejecting claims by the PSNI that the lives of members of the public were endangered in the attack, the RIRA spokesperson said: “The presence of civilians saved lives on this occasion. More attacks will follow.”

[Viet Minh]

True... except the British right....

True but the support is very rarely mutual. For example the UDA did make an arms deal with Combat 18, but they sent one of their few black members to make the deal, obviously making the point they they no interest in racial politics. And by the way a lot of European right wing groups were very pro Republican, it doesn't reflect on the Republicans themselves.
There are of course morons like Johnny Adair who are singled out as representatives of loyalism, but I genuinely think he is just stupid and not racist. On one hand he goes to reggae concerts, and allegedly has mixed race children, on the other he fraternises with a german nazi terrorist for a bbc documentary made by an irish republican, in which they go to africa to start an orphanage. :confused: The fact is though if he set foot back in Belfast he would be shot, most likely by the Shoukri brothers who he put in his place.


the BBC and UTV are still very much pro-establishment. For sure they're more impartial now, but I think you'll still see a lot more air time for unionist politicians and unionist politics, because they are also pro-establishment. In the past you could see the real bias these outlets had, with propaganda and censorship rife.

From your perspective I can understand that, from theirs I suppose they are just focusing on elected representatives or the ruling party, who tend to be unionist. Things like SF spokesmen having to speak after taking helium are rightly seen by the mainstream media now as a joke. The only limits to freedom of speech now are freedom of abuse, which is usually only applied to the bnp and nf. Times have moved on, not only in Britain but a lot of countries across the World things are changing, I'm not saying forget the past, I think we need to remember the mistake of the past to avoid them in the future. I'm just saying we both need to drop the 'us and them' attitude and think of us all, collectively, the people, versus the establishment to change thigs for the common good.


Funnily enough within Irish republicansim you'll see the Free State media and the government as being labelled as 'West Brit' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Brit) Sinn Fein don't get very much air time either. It's not uncommon for RTE to cut short their interviews or speeches in Leinster House. Unless of course you think that Fianna Fail are the representatives of modern Irish republicanism (which they themselves think), to which yes, they get a lot of Free State media attention

I never knew that, to be honest I don't know a lot of people in Ireland and I haven't visited, I just had the idea that whenever I spoke to anyone from Ireland (usually on teh internet) they always had a very pro-IRA viewpoint, alhtough I could be projecting to some extent.
The meaning of Irish Republianism has changed since the formation of the irish Republic, to me the United Ireland lobby are the true Irish Republicans, but I disagree with the majority who feel the means to that end is violence, particularly when it targets civilians. The way to a United Ireland is to win hearts and minds, and therefore votes. People are people, if Ireland becomes a secualr socialist state then I believe the working class 'Ulster Scots'/ Loyalists/ Unionists whatever will largely open their minds to 're'unification, and acheive that through democratic means.


Sure even the Free state media and mainstream politicians support the impending visit of the queen.

I'd say the media in an overall sense is corporatist and biased towards the ruling elite.

imo the whole queen vs pope thing is stupid, rangers and celtic fans in glasgow were ftp'ing and ftq'ing whilst the pope and queen had tea together at holyrood palace. :D we need to unite and get rid of all the ruling elite :)


I'm not denying that there was a few isolated incidents in discrimination and attacks, but I'd be very surprised if there was collusion between the state and the IRA against protestants. Are there any documented events or indeed have their ever been an inquiry or a credible report to support these claims ?

There were no enquiries made, just a few allegations from individuals in N.I. There is some supporting evidence but I don't think anything official. The loyalists are usually far too busy being paranoidabout the 'papal service n.i.' :rolleyes:


Tolerating an orange march is one thing, but hemming residents, families and children into their homes while businesses and shops shut is another especially if the OO fail to enter into any dialogue with the residents. How far back do you say would be traditional ? Would you support the Catholic Church and their traditional policies? Is there no room for progressivism or common sense?

I agree there. One of the major problems with orange parades is the supporters, the oo constantly makes pleas for them to behave themselves and conduct themselves in a peaceful and orderly manner, the royal black preceptory doesn't allow any supporters at all for that reason. I'm not sure how they would speak to residents to be honest, if they consulted a neighbourhood group and some were in favour, and some not how would they decide if the parade would go ahead? By a vote I suppose but it seems impractical, most of the time its arranged with the local council, who theoretically have their communites interests at heart.


When have Irish republican parades gone through loyalist areas ? if there has been any contentious parades, i hope they have stopped and common sense have prevailed.

Actually I'm not sure, I heard that somewhere but I can't confirm it. I don't generally support loyalist parades going through republican areas.


outlawed now mate.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7206891.stm)

I think that's an over-reaction, its like every other year they come up with a new 'politically correct' term for the disabled, all they do is make more stigmatised phrases to use in terms of abuse. Originally 'spastic' for example was intended as a word with no stigma attached. I personally like the term huns, attilla was cool he just got bad press. :laugh:


Of course loyalist prisoners didn't have 5 star treatment either, but how many loyalist prisoners currently are there inside for political offences now and who suffer the same abuses ? None.

There are still plenty loyalist prisoners, as far as I know they are under the same conditions as republican prisoners in for the same offences. The historic enquiries team are felt by some to be biased against loyalist criminals, who comprise most of their convictions.


Billy Wright was executed by the INLA. There was no state/prison collusion. An inquest was carried out and refuted any of these doubts.

But still there is ample evidence to the contrary. Republicans usually don't have too much faith in these matters, for example the brady inquiry.


Those who have murdered innocent civilians deserved to be punished. An attack on a member of the occupying crown forces though is not an attack on an innocent civilian, no matter if you or I agree with the strategy of using force at this time (which I don't).

So for example, the killing of PC Stephen Carroll is no different than the killing of a soldier in iraq or afghanistan?


This is one example, hardy “frequently” . I hear of very, very littler murders in gaols in Ireland, north or south.

Yes, because they are high security, and prisoners are segregated by political divisions, as well as sectarian ones. For example INLA prisoners are seperate from IRA ones, LVF seperate from UVF etc. I'm not in any way justifying the mistreatment of prisoners if the allegations are true, I'm just saying there is a huge potential there for violence, and some of the people they are dealing with are very very dangerous. There are people on both sides who other than being political prisoners are a danger to society.


I understand the suspicion of unionists and loyalists towards a United Ireland especially from their viewpoint against the more militant republican groups and their policies, but I do suggest that you have a wee read up on them if you want or if you have time (not a brainwashing episode by the way!!) -- They aren't proposing this big fenian Irish catholic discriminatory Ireland that many would be sceptical of. (oh and RSF = CIRA )

Sorry yes I made a mess of that! Its just that its theory versus practise. On one hand they are proposing an anti-sectarian state, on the other they have been accused of orchestrating violent anti-loyalist protests, which yes could be seen as political, but not in the inclusive tolerant way they claim. To a loyalist they imagine if SInn Fein get into power, the IRA activist who set bombs off a few years ago is sudenly going to be their president. Thats just the way they see it. I will read up on their literature though if I have time.


Sinn Fein were always excluded from power-sharing. The rights which of the community they represented where always being denied. Many political commentators and those in moderate unionism these days are in agreement now that Ian Paisley's rhetoric and intolerant views should have mellowed 20 years sooner, then we would have seen the conflict dilute and power-sharing come sooner. His rabble rousing was very contagious.

Sinn fein were excluded from power sharing, because they were a minority party. During the Troubles both sides became more radicalised, but still more moderate groups like SDLP were popular. And you're right Ian Paisley really didn't help, but equally on the other side there were people fueling the fire, exagerating accounts of mistreatment, reopening old wounds, all things designed to incite conflict.


Workers rights. Minority language rights, which includes the native Irish language which was enshrined into the GFA which is still venomously discriminated against by unionism. Segregated schooling (children's rights), segregated estate areas (residents rights), political biasness and democracy still gets a kick in the teeth via Westminster who have no mandate in the north.

Workers rights are exploited across Britain as a whole, and across Ireland as well. A lot of the Irish language was lost organically, it just became impractical in the British Empire it wasn't always forced into extinction, much of Ireland is still anglicized (linguistically). Segregated schooling is not imposed by the State per se, Catholics are free to attend non-denominational schools, and many do. Most of the argument for Catholic schooling is by Catholics themselves. Other than that segregation of children is just a wider issue of segregated areas.
Segregated estate areas came about through inter-community violence. There's an interesting if very sad book by somebody Boy, 'Holy War in Belfast' I think. Its about the history of sectarian violence in Belfast since the 1700's. Like most writers on NI he is arguably republican-orientated but the book generally shows prejudice on either side, with largely catholic areas like the Pound evicting protestant residents, and mobs in the Shankill evicting catholic residents.


Many nations would invade another country and prop up an oppressive and discriminatory government then kill the resistance? Yeah the British do do that, as do the USA and to an extent Israel. Why should the IRA have been killed outright when they where defending a repressed people and fighting for national liberation? That's imperialist talk dude.

The British Empire is finished, Northern ireland is arguably the last remnant of it, the only reason its excepted is because the majority want Union with the UK. Imperialism is subjective, to a republican the British took 'their land' in the 1500's or whatever, and to the loyalists the IRA are bombing them and killing them to take over. To a leftist they are both advocating union with capitalist states. That would change very rapidly if Ireland were actually a socialist nation, i'm sceptical that if N.I became united with Eire that they would actually form a socialist state, given the leftists in either Eire or N.I are the minority. Maybe its because I don't understand their long term plans though i admit.


Which is why there is very vocal support from within Irish republicanism for oppressed and exploited countries worldwide.

"Bloody Sunday every Sunday" :)

I'm a bit cynical about this, Iraq and Afghanistan don't seem much more opressed now than they were under Ba'athists or the Taliban. So largely it seems as though 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Those situations are also incomparable to n.i in many ways imo.


Yeah of course the Free State government had certain right-wing views, this was abhorrent, but thankfully it wasn't representative of the majority of the population but a minority within the government and the religious nuts and indeed it still does have certain discriminatory legislations, which needs to be drastically changed.

the RIRA do play their part in the division, but to downplay the role of the British establishment inclusive of Stormont is misleading. One look at an afternoon in Stormont and you can see the tensions and obvious divisions are already there. The intolerance is still very much in form despite 'power-sharing'.

I notice the RIRA don't shoot the police in the R.o.I to make those changes though, just saying..

If there are tensions its because the two arguably most extreme parties are brought together, it is symptomatic of the area and cultures as a whole. You can't change it from the outside, only from within. Catholics/ Republicans now have more of an opportunity than ever before to be part of the establishment, ie Government, police, council etc, and that is your key to success. If we disagree and you punch me in the face I will only disagree with you more, and probably hit back. If we talk things out (as is now happening to a greater extent) we can find common ground, and work through the issues.


But again, the main recruiting card for the likes of the RIRA is the economic and social inequalities and the alienation that is created by this divided society we live in. Yet Stormont seem oblivious to these problems, and just concerns itself with tribalism.

You say 'Stormont' as though it is a single shady organisation of masonic zionists with the queen in charge, it is a group of democratically elected individuals from a range of political ideologies and parties, elected by the people in various regions. Yes in the past unforgiveable things like gerrymandering and scaremongering have taken place, I'm not denying that. But you can't blame stormont for all the inequalities that are present in every capitalist system, and certainly not for alienation and division which has been present long before the modern n.i assembly was created. And R.I.R.A are not the solution to divisiveness and tribalism by any means.


But these conditions are not fullfliing or are they in the interests of the working class. This materialist world of possessions, xboxes, x-factor and celebrity culture etc. is brain draining. I don't think we should be too supportive of youths being diverted by these 'better conditions'.

I'm not, i'm just saying things are not as bleak now as they were even in the 70's, at the start of the troubles.


Be as that may but that might be because we support the oppressed and the occupied :)

Yes but do you accept that it is a mistake to have blind loyalty to the IRA, in all its forms, because you happen to be catholic or Irish or whatever or for any other reason? Do you see that the interests of the IRA are linked to but seperate from the interests of the irish in Northern Ireland? For example, the IRA policing catholic areas with kneecappings and even execution, soemtimes for alleged minor drugs offences or joyriding etc? So some kid will not be able to work because he made a mistake, or was falsely accused. Just think how many Cubans drown trying to swim for a 'better life' in the USA. :(


I understand the connection. But say for instance in the future it was in the interests of the unionist working class for an alternative to the union, would you be supportive, or be sceptical but intrigued, or would you just rather keep on living in a decaying society?

I am a prgressive not a reactionary. People only label themselves for convenience, really they usually only have their own interests at heart. Again sceptical I know. So yes of course I would consider an alternative to the Union, I used to consider the third way an option but I feel that the main powers behind it are largely nationalist. Usually when I am arguing with the dredges of loyal british nazis :rolleyes: i tell them they would be better off in a united ireland, with less immigrants and blacks :D maybe thats how you get a United Ireland, there do seem to be an unfortunate number of racist idiots amongst the loyalist population :(


I wouldn't be very supportive of a United Ireland tomorrow....

Whats tomorrow, giro day? No seriously i joke, i meant that as a satire on loyalist ignorance, unemployment benefits are acually higher in ireland, though less are unemployed..
Sorry couldn't help myself :p


A 32county socialist republic. A secular nation. No bosses. No borders. No divisions or exploitation..... hopefully.


In a future United Ireland I hope that an Orange Order march would be allowed. Its current usage is triumphant and very provocative. The 'Love Ulster' fiasco in Dublin was anything but about love. A bigoted and very biased Willie Frazer led loyalists and Orange Order members through the Dublin streets with a very clear agenda using 'victims of irish republicans' as a mask to provoke and incite a reaction.

Yes again thats the issue of Orange Order parades pasing through Republican areas, which I disagree with. There are orange lodges in Ireland still but they only parade in the north as far as I know.


I hope thats more sarcasm !!!

Yes twas sarcasm, but there is almost always discrepancy between theory and reality. Theory; a Socialist Soviet Republic, reality: Joseph Stalin :lol:


It is normally seen as supremacist and imperialist and where I am from it's not very inclusive, and it is promoted and used in a triumphant and off-putting way.


As i said previously, concessions would be made, so what within loyalist culture do you think would be censored in a United Ireland ?

Me personally, I'm not sure, it depends which specific party oversees its implementation. If it was SDLP they seem less prone to flag-burning etc. To a typical loyalist though a United Ireland would mean the entire Protestant population being rounded up and deported, or shot in concentration camps, all aspects of Britishness eg Belfast Town hall being burnt to the ground, and the postboxes all being painted green. :D


All very noble dude, but not really what Marxists want. Britian is imperialist and capitalist.

Class war all the way baby!! :thumbup1:

The only way forward is to create a unified workers front, fighting for independence from British and Irish influence. hopefully the other counties will join us and we can call ourselves the People's Republic of Ulster. :thumbup1:

http://i54.tinypic.com/2iw5xdw.jpg

:D
*I don't really support an Independent N.I/ Ulster, I think if we can make progressive changes in the UK it would be more beneficial to all.


What polls would these be?

As we see from the recent elections Sinn Fein are growing. It also seems to have upset their unionist brothers in the north who have been vocal, dismissive and at the same time have gone on the defensive and offensive about their gains !!

Like the elections, Sinn Fein have never been voted into power in Eire. I think the majority would want a UI, but not support Sinn Fein, at least not recently.


Nationalising the banks and expropriating the wealth would be an ideal place to start.

Being forced to rely solely on the Irish population, a socialist government would have to address the needs of it's citizens instead of international exploiters and capitalists. I know its not the best example but Cuba are able to be sufficient enough to survive, and I would doubt that there would be EU embargoes placed on a socialist Ireland. But in saying that I would be hopeful of Ireland not being isolated as a socialist nation, and any future revolution would hopefully have domino effect. Plus Ireland has very little political or ecominic enemies/competitors, so I would also say they would receive some support and aid.

For sure the EU would support them, but the EU's conditions don't sit well with Socialism, and besides a radical socialist Government would probably take the Maoist viewpoint of coexistence with capitalist states. Geographically it would be isolated, the nearest 'leftist' state would be Libya, which is looking tentative. Gadaffi supported the Republicans so would probably aid them financially I suppose. With a radical shift of politics though roi could be self-sufficient.


In Ireland anyway, Catholic schools are partly funded by the state but are not state schools. most are privately owned by religious investors and by the Catholic Church

Whats your viewpoint on secualr schooling?


I would hope not, as in the past there was a need for catholic education because of discrimination against Catholics in education, but this is not the case now so any continuing support for segregated schooling and why someone would see the need for Catholic teaching in schools would need to be queried.

Bring back Sunday schools! That'll put them off organised religion for life! :lol:

[Che a chara]

There are of course morons like Johnny Adair who are singled out as representatives of loyalism, but I genuinely think he is just stupid and not racist. On one hand he goes to reggae concerts, and allegedly has mixed race children,

Adair is yesterday's news. He was a drugged up loon. He made a swift return to Belfast in the dead of the night a few years back proclaiming that this was proof that he was untouchable in the area, but he was gone within an hour and only stayed to get a few photos of himself in front of murals in the Shankhill as a PR stunt.


on the other he fraternises with a german nazi terrorist for a bbc documentary made by an irish republican, in which they go to africa to start an orphanage. :confused:

Donal mcintrye !! lol, he's def no republican, i vaguely remember the documentary alright, but he's just an Irish journo. I love his undercover work with the Chelsea football hooligan group the head-hunters. :thumbup1:


The fact is though if he set foot back in Belfast he would be shot, most likely by the Shoukri brothers who he put in his place.

The Shoukri's are also yesterday's news. One died of an OD a couple of years back and the other was expelled from the UDA and is under threat and keeping a low profile somewhere in co. Antrim, but anyway, yeah Adair's next visit will end up in a pool of blood.


I never knew that, to be honest I don't know a lot of people in Ireland and I haven't visited, I just had the idea that whenever I spoke to anyone from Ireland (usually on teh internet) they always had a very pro-IRA viewpoint, alhtough I could be projecting to some extent.

Well yeah most people would be supportive of a united Ireland and on the internet you'll definitely find a lot of IRA sympathisers, mouths and IRA keyboard warriors.


The meaning of Irish Republianism has changed since the formation of the irish Republic, to me the United Ireland lobby are the true Irish Republicans, but I disagree with the majority who feel the means to that end is violence, particularly when it targets civilians. The way to a United Ireland is to win hearts and minds, and therefore votes. People are people, if Ireland becomes a secualr socialist state then I believe the working class 'Ulster Scots'/ Loyalists/ Unionists whatever will largely open their minds to 're'unification, and acheive that through democratic means.

Irish republicanism hasn't really transformed that much, the basics are the same, a free and sovereign Ireland free from British rule. The founding fathers of Irish republican 'the United Irishmen' evolved from a liberal democratic organisation, who had a protestant leadership, into a more radical group and are what many of the current organisations take their ideology from. Of course between that you have James Connolly and Padraig Pearse who also have influenced the more socialist and working class aspects of republicanism. Conditions change, and over the times to the most recent of the conflict by the provos, they deemed it necessary to fight a war engaging the British state (domestically and in England) in order to bring the struggle to the international scene for support and for Britain to take notice.

Anyway, presently Sinn Fein are the mainstream and are in the republican hotseat. Only time will tell what they envisage, but imo, the have invested too much into the current establishment north and south, into businesses, making acquaintances doing favours and making enemies, so I wouldn't be too hopeful that they would procure a socialist republic.


imo the whole queen vs pope thing is stupid, rangers and celtic fans in glasgow were ftp'ing and ftq'ing whilst the pope and queen had tea together at holyrood palace. :D we need to unite and get rid of all the ruling elite :)

Touche. Too many people these days now have a liberal and a materialist attitude to life. They need reawakened.


I agree there. One of the major problems with orange parades is the supporters, the oo constantly makes pleas for them to behave themselves and conduct themselves in a peaceful and orderly manner, the royal black preceptory doesn't allow any supporters at all for that reason. I'm not sure how they would speak to residents to be honest, if they consulted a neighbourhood group and some were in favour, and some not how would they decide if the parade would go ahead? By a vote I suppose but it seems impractical, most of the time its arranged with the local council, who theoretically have their communites interests at heart.

The parades commission is a joke. It doesn't really have any say in how or what should be negotiated between residents and the marchers, just what should the band be limited to and if it should go ahead or not. But once again the tribalist politics of stormont doesn't help, as they also don't have the best dialogue regarding this issue. It's like a stand off.


So for example, the killing of PC Stephen Carroll is no different than the killing of a soldier in iraq or afghanistan?

Well that's the gist of it from the viewpoint of the armed groups. They still see a peeler as part of the British crown force upholding British law in Ireland, and those who killed him see themselves as POW's. but the latest is that the 2 arrested were done up like kippers by the cops and might be released by the end of the year.

Imo, I wouldn't compare Carroll to a soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq, especially as he wasn't out engaging directly with the volunteers, but in any case, there is no conditions or support for this type of action, and it was totally wrong and I condemn it.


Yes, because they are high security, and prisoners are segregated by political divisions, as well as sectarian ones. For example INLA prisoners are seperate from IRA ones, LVF seperate from UVF etc. I'm not in any way justifying the mistreatment of prisoners if the allegations are true, I'm just saying there is a huge potential there for violence, and some of the people they are dealing with are very very dangerous. There are people on both sides who other than being political prisoners are a danger to society.

Yeah the potential is there for violence and unrest, and I would say it would be like a powder keg at times. There is no easy answers especially if there are prisoners trying to get POW status and rights, and if that's denied, as has happened in the last year, violence will erupt and prisoners will go on hunger strike as well and look what happened in the 81 hungerstrikes. no-one wants to go through that again. Tough situation for all concerned about what to give up.


Sorry yes I made a mess of that! Its just that its theory versus practise. On one hand they are proposing an anti-sectarian state, on the other they have been accused of orchestrating violent anti-loyalist protests, which yes could be seen as political, but not in the inclusive tolerant way they claim. To a loyalist they imagine if SInn Fein get into power, the IRA activist who set bombs off a few years ago is sudenly going to be their president. Thats just the way they see it. I will read up on their literature though if I have time.

Well SF are being smart now with regards to new recruits to their organisation and especially ones who they put up for election – they all have squeaky clean records with no links to any previous armed group which makes them more reliable and approachable.

The most popular document within the anti-GFA organisations is 'Eire Nua' (http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm) which was a Provisional movement document, which they have now abandoned and is now championed by RSF and has also been given acknowledgement by the 32csm. it's not really much to get excited about, but it does have some progressive ideas.


A lot of the Irish language was lost organically, it just became impractical in the British Empire it wasn't always forced into extinction, much of Ireland is still anglicized (linguistically).

Well the Irish language was outlawed by the British. It wasn't even allowed to be used in government way back in the past when there was majority nationalists and even to this day it is still an offence to use it in court. The stigma attached made it more irrelevant. But now what hurts it more is Sinn Fein's politicisation of it.


The British Empire is finished, Northern ireland is arguably the last remnant of it, the only reason its excepted is because the majority want Union with the UK. Imperialism is subjective, to a republican the British took 'their land' in the 1500's or whatever, and to the loyalists the IRA are bombing them and killing them to take over. To a leftist they are both advocating union with capitalist states. That would change very rapidly if Ireland were actually a socialist nation, i'm sceptical that if N.I became united with Eire that they would actually form a socialist state, given the leftists in either Eire or N.I are the minority. Maybe its because I don't understand their long term plans though i admit.

That would be a fair enough assumption. Which is why I agree with the theory that the national and social question can't de separated. What's the point of uniting Ireland and having the same mundane existence and exploitive conditions ? Who does it really free? We're still bound by the capitalists and exploited by the landlords, bankers and speculators.


I notice the RIRA don't shoot the police in the R.o.I to make those changes though, just saying..

That's a legitimate criticism leveled against all Irish Republican militants. They never took their campaign down south even though they were being persecuted and arrested by the gardai. The answer to that I think is that their existence would be totally unsustainable what with being hounded in the north and then having safe houses, funding, training camps and arms drops coming through in the free state. It was really a 'Brits out' campaign, which i would say made them easy targets for people to shout "sectarian" and for socialists to decry their cause as not in the interests of the whole Irish working class.


You say 'Stormont' as though it is a single shady organisation of masonic zionists with the queen in charge, it is a group of democratically elected individuals from a range of political ideologies and parties, elected by the people in various regions. Yes in the past unforgiveable things like gerrymandering and scaremongering have taken place, I'm not denying that. But you can't blame stormont for all the inequalities that are present in every capitalist system, and certainly not for alienation and division which has been present long before the modern n.i assembly was created. And R.I.R.A are not the solution to divisiveness and tribalism by any means.

Stormont sucks dude. I don't know if you get to see the nightly programme on bbc2ni called “stormont today”. It shows you highlights from the days session in the chamber. Then there's interviews with politicians in the studio. It's quite frankly embarrassing and it definitely would make you disaffected and totally alienated with the whole process.

But of course the RIRA are not the answer. We're still in a financial crisis and cuts are coming, this is where we should be fighting together on all fronts. And hopefully that can kick start something.


Yes but do you accept that it is a mistake to have blind loyalty to the IRA, in all its forms, because you happen to be catholic or Irish or whatever or for any other reason? Do you see that the interests of the IRA are linked to but seperate from the interests of the irish in Northern Ireland? For example, the IRA policing catholic areas with kneecappings and even execution, soemtimes for alleged minor drugs offences or joyriding etc? So some kid will not be able to work because he made a mistake, or was falsely accused. Just think how many Cubans drown trying to swim for a 'better life' in the USA. :(

I would definitely hold my hands up to the mistakes made within Irish republicanism all through the conflict and there has been many. Times were tough and society was paranoid and didn't know who to trust. The IRA's emergence for policing was merely to undermine the RUC and to stamp their authority and gain fear and respect. I don't think overall they gave too much consideration to the victims of their punishment attacks. This still happens to this day unfortunately.


I am a prgressive not a reactionary. People only label themselves for convenience, really they usually only have their own interests at heart. Again sceptical I know. So yes of course I would consider an alternative to the Union, I used to consider the third way an option but I feel that the main powers behind it are largely nationalist. Usually when I am arguing with the dredges of loyal british nazis :rolleyes: i tell them they would be better off in a united ireland, with less immigrants and blacks :D maybe thats how you get a United Ireland, there do seem to be an unfortunate number of racist idiots amongst the loyalist population :(

Well one things for sure, I don't think loyalists and unionists will be dragged into a UI, even if there was the nationalist majority needed to trigger a vote, the veto is still there, so maybe that veto is a good thing (republicans repeatedly call it treason and kick in the face), because it can give time to make the proper steps for better relations between communities and have in place relevant measures that will attract unionists and nationalists into a better set up of a UI, if that's what is supported, instead of all this unhelpful nonsense of denying that it will ever be a possibility, because that will leave people with a "WTF happened there" outlook.


Whats tomorrow, giro day? No seriously i joke, i meant that as a satire on loyalist ignorance, unemployment benefits are acually higher in ireland, though less are unemployed..
Sorry couldn't help myself :p

Lol, yeah I get it. :)


Me personally, I'm not sure, it depends which specific party oversees its implementation. If it was SDLP they seem less prone to flag-burning etc. To a typical loyalist though a United Ireland would mean the entire Protestant population being rounded up and deported, or shot in concentration camps, all aspects of Britishness eg Belfast Town hall being burnt to the ground, and the postboxes all being painted green. :D

it's definitely one of the main issues. I don't think there would be a need to remove any of the culture inherent in loyalism. I think what does need to be concentrated on is to realise the futility of the union and put forward reasons and arguments that would be in the best interests of all. That's not the same as saying “your fetish with the queen and the British army will not be tolerated” or that there will be "no OO marches", I would actually expect Gerry Adams to lead an OO band down the Ardoyne in a UI :lol:.

Here's a couple of hypothetical concessions..... keep the Norn Iron national football team, and having 12th as a national annual holiday.....??


*I don't really support an Independent N.I/ Ulster, I think if we can make progressive changes in the UK it would be more beneficial to all.

An independent 6 county statelet has too been mentioned. I don't know though if it would be able to sustain itself without mass funding and aid from the British and Irish governments. I think it would be used and exploited by those governments and used as some sort of special economic zone.


For sure the EU would support them, but the EU's conditions don't sit well with Socialism, and besides a radical socialist Government would probably take the Maoist viewpoint of coexistence with capitalist states. Geographically it would be isolated, the nearest 'leftist' state would be Libya, which is looking tentative. Gadaffi supported the Republicans so would probably aid them financially I suppose. With a radical shift of politics though roi could be self-sufficient.

Well Gadaffi would be no use now and I don't think he has any respect left. He was a great man, but now a disgrace. Sinn Fein have distanced themselves from him after the recent disturbances in Libya and have called on him to step down.


Whats your viewpoint on secualr schooling?

I totally support secular schooling. It is the only progressive and sensible way froward. Integrated schools are getting popular, I myself went to one and though it was crap education wise, there was no trouble.

[Viet Minh]

Adair is yesterday's news. He was a drugged up loon. He made a swift return to Belfast in the dead of the night a few years back proclaiming that this was proof that he was untouchable in the area, but he was gone within an hour and only stayed to get a few photos of himself in front of murals in the Shankhill as a PR stunt.

Donal mcintrye !! lol, he's def no republican, i vaguely remember the documentary alright, but he's just an Irish journo. I love his undercover work with the Chelsea football hooligan group the head-hunters. :thumbup1:

The bit where's he posing with 6 German skinheads saying they're gonna take over Belfast is priceless, they wouldn't even get through Larne..


The Shoukri's are also yesterday's news. One died of an OD a couple of years back and the other was expelled from the UDA and is under threat and keeping a low profile somewhere in co. Antrim, but anyway, yeah Adair's next visit will end up in a pool of blood.

I think Andres cronies are South East Antrim (SEA) now, still delaing drugs somewhere.


Well yeah most people would be supportive of a united Ireland and on the internet you'll definitely find a lot of IRA sympathisers, mouths and IRA keyboard warriors.

You're telling me! Nothing wrong with a bit internet hardsmanship though! :cool:


Irish republicanism hasn't really transformed that much, the basics are the same, a free and sovereign Ireland free from British rule. The founding fathers of Irish republican 'the United Irishmen' evolved from a liberal democratic organisation, who had a protestant leadership, into a more radical group and are what many of the current organisations take their ideology from. Of course between that you have James Connolly and Padraig Pearse who also have influenced the more socialist and working class aspects of republicanism. Conditions change, and over the times to the most recent of the conflict by the provos, they deemed it necessary to fight a war engaging the British state (domestically and in England) in order to bring the struggle to the international scene for support and for Britain to take notice.

You could trace leftist tendencies in irish republicanism right back to the whiteboys arguably, or ever since they were called republicans. I assume it was some time after they fought for King James at the Boyne! :lol: ANother strange historical fact :scared:


Anyway, presently Sinn Fein are the mainstream and are in the republican hotseat. Only time will tell what they envisage, but imo, the have invested too much into the current establishment north and south, into businesses, making acquaintances doing favours and making enemies, so I wouldn't be too hopeful that they would procure a socialist republic.

Perhaps not, but imo they will make some very important changes: first they have arguably brought the most poeaceful period for a long long time, second they can implement some long-awaited progressive and positive changes for Catholics in N.I, third they can alleviate some of the alienation between communities, and act as positive role models for the future.


Touche. Too many people these days now have a liberal and a materialist attitude to life. They need reawakened.

It can be a bit like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes though. Ignorance is bliss I suppose :(


The parades commission is a joke. It doesn't really have any say in how or what should be negotiated between residents and the marchers, just what should the band be limited to and if it should go ahead or not. But once again the tribalist politics of stormont doesn't help, as they also don't have the best dialogue regarding this issue. It's like a stand off.

I know the loyalists are generally very unhappy with the parades commision, so thats at least one thing that both sides could agree on!


Well that's the gist of it from the viewpoint of the armed groups. They still see a peeler as part of the British crown force upholding British law in Ireland, and those who killed him see themselves as POW's. but the latest is that the 2 arrested were done up like kippers by the cops and might be released by the end of the year.

A few decades ago that was probably a fair assumption, the B specials were the UVF in State Uniform, but now I would see it differently, the police trying at least to be impartial and fair-handed, and with catholic and protestant members.


Imo, I wouldn't compare Carroll to a soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq, especially as he wasn't out engaging directly with the volunteers, but in any case, there is no conditions or support for this type of action, and it was totally wrong and I condemn it.

A huge number of Nationalists did, that was a major surprise to me, in my ignorance I assumed they'd all be jumping on the RIRA bandwagon. I think the loyalist community generally were stunned, of course nationalists in N.I are the most vulnerable, they don't want a return to the Troubles any more than we do. I think there is a more hopeful feeling in N.I as well, Catholics feel they have more rights and more of a voice than before, and it is possible to acheive a UI even on 'British' terms. I don;t know thats just the impression I get.


Yeah the potential is there for violence and unrest, and I would say it would be like a powder keg at times. There is no easy answers especially if there are prisoners trying to get POW status and rights, and if that's denied, as has happened in the last year, violence will erupt and prisoners will go on hunger strike as well and look what happened in the 81 hungerstrikes. no-one wants to go through that again. Tough situation for all concerned about what to give up.

Being in the cells for the weekend was enough for me, I find it hard to imagine being locked up for life because I took up arms to protect my family and friends.


Well SF are being smart now with regards to new recruits to their organisation and especially ones who they put up for election – they all have squeaky clean records with no links to any previous armed group which makes them more reliable and approachable.

Did Gerry Adams not appear on some light entertainment TV chat show or somethign to that effect? Times are changing, image is everything. I would say the Republcians play the media game a lot better than the loyalists, that no doubt works in your favour internationally.


The most popular document within the anti-GFA organisations is 'Eire Nua' (http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm) which was a Provisional movement document, which they have now abandoned and is now championed by RSF and has also been given acknowledgement by the 32csm. it's not really much to get excited about, but it does have some progressive ideas.

I'll give it a read ;)


Well the Irish language was outlawed by the British. It wasn't even allowed to be used in government way back in the past when there was majority nationalists and even to this day it is still an offence to use it in court. The stigma attached made it more irrelevant. But now what hurts it more is Sinn Fein's politicisation of it.

Thats unfortunate, and rather stupid considering our own Brythonic culture was wiped out by ANglo Saxon invaders.. I heard there was a large gaelic Scottish element among the planters, that would have been better than the Ulster Scots thing imo..


That would be a fair enough assumption. Which is why I agree with the theory that the national and social question can't de separated. What's the point of uniting Ireland and having the same mundane existence and exploitive conditions ? Who does it really free? We're still bound by the capitalists and exploited by the landlords, bankers and speculators.

That's a legitimate criticism leveled against all Irish Republican militants. They never took their campaign down south even though they were being persecuted and arrested by the gardai. The answer to that I think is that their existence would be totally unsustainable what with being hounded in the north and then having safe houses, funding, training camps and arms drops coming through in the free state. It was really a 'Brits out' campaign, which i would say made them easy targets for people to shout "sectarian" and for socialists to decry their cause as not in the interests of the whole Irish working class.

The Irish Civil war is an interesting period, althouygh it makes me concerned for the creation of a United ireland. Im not even sure main conflict would be between loyalists and republcians in n.i, who have largely the same issues only they don;t know it being too caught up in religious and political struggle, i think it would end up a battle between left and right, not far right i mean some sort of union between conservatives fine gael, uup and dup etc, pit against ula, sf, sdlp and pup. The irony is both the presbyterian church and catholic church would probably fall into the former camp.


Stormont sucks dude. I don't know if you get to see the nightly programme on bbc2ni called “stormont today”. It shows you highlights from the days session in the chamber. Then there's interviews with politicians in the studio. It's quite frankly embarrassing and it definitely would make you disaffected and totally alienated with the whole process.

I have seen clips from BBC parliament, you'd think that at least in N.I they'd give a rats ass, but they seem to be even more morose than westminster, i suppose all they care about is money and personal benefit like everywhere else. that goes for a few nationalist politicans too imo


But of course the RIRA are not the answer. We're still in a financial crisis and cuts are coming, this is where we should be fighting together on all fronts. And hopefully that can kick start something.

Its just hard to say what. the only thing that united both sides in n.i was (very sadly) racist attacks on roma gypsies, spraying c18 on their doors etc. I think the blame there lies more with 'loyal'ists as usual but still. they need a common enemy to unite against, but they can;t see they have one already.. The hoods 'movement' (if you can call it that) is a little more encouraging, with their anarchist rioting, and anti-paramiltary ideology. It seems to span both sides of the sectarian divide as well. Up the hoods!


I would definitely hold my hands up to the mistakes made within Irish republicanism all through the conflict and there has been many. Times were tough and society was paranoid and didn't know who to trust. The IRA's emergence for policing was merely to undermine the RUC and to stamp their authority and gain fear and respect. I don't think overall they gave too much consideration to the victims of their punishment attacks. This still happens to this day unfortunately.

The Mafia was born of the Sicilian independence movement, I just hope the troubles don't leave any such legacy on the good people of ireland. Unfortunately the UDA's profiteering still seems to be going strong, despite the ceasefire..


Lol, yeah I get it. :)

Sorry man! :blushing:


it's definitely one of the main issues. I don't think there would be a need to remove any of the culture inherent in loyalism. I think what does need to be concentrated on is to realise the futility of the union and put forward reasons and arguments that would be in the best interests of all. That's not the same as saying “your fetish with the queen and the British army will not be tolerated” or that there will be "no OO marches", I would actually expect Gerry Adams to lead an OO band down the Ardoyne in a UI :lol:.

THAT would be worth seeing! :D


Here's a couple of hypothetical concessions..... keep the Norn Iron national football team, and having 12th as a national annual holiday.....??

I suppose it would just be categorised as a religious holiday, and given to those who chose to take it. FIFA make the rules on football, so I suppose it would be amalgamated (if thats the right word) but Ireland could be renamed the United Republic of West British Isles :D


An independent 6 county statelet has too been mentioned. I don't know though if it would be able to sustain itself without mass funding and aid from the British and Irish governments. I think it would be used and exploited by those governments and used as some sort of special economic zone.

Thats the problem, it would be too vulnerable to interference, and peoples paranoia would go through the roof at any sort of intervention, especially in the event of sectarian violence.


Well Gadaffi would be no use now and I don't think he has any respect left. He was a great man, but now a disgrace. Sinn Fein have distanced themselves from him after the recent disturbances in Libya and have called on him to step down.

Thats it, I'm supporting him all the way now! No Surrender Gadaffi! :D


I totally support secular schooling. It is the only progressive and sensible way froward. Integrated schools are getting popular, I myself went to one and though it was crap education wise, there was no trouble.

Agreed! :) Is it a fairly popular viewpoint though among Republicans?