Unemployed Man's Suicide

[RGacky3]

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This is Capitalist America.

This should be read out every day on Wallstreet, every day congress opens this letter should be read, untill those people learn to feel a little bit of Shame.

[danyboy27]

Not everyone would be willing to kill himself over these issues.

Right winger should be affraid, verry affraid.

[RGacky3]

You put people through enough desperation, you put people through enough humiliation, enough suffering, they are willing to take drastic actions. So yeah, the ruling class will never feel shame, never have a sence of decency or fellow human feeling, but one thing they might be able to feel is fear.

Those Shitheads sleep well at night, they should not be allowed too, they should have to live their life in fear of being smashed in the face by the people who live every day in fear of not having food, work or a home because of them.

[RGacky3]

If this does'nt make you sick to your stomach, go see a shrink, somethings wrong with you.

[danyboy27]

If this does'nt make you sick to your stomach, go see a shrink, somethings wrong with you.

I am usually hardly disturbed usually but i have to admit this thing made me feel ill.

[Bud Struggle]

It's as unproductive to blame "society" or the "economy" or the "government" for this guys suicide as it is to blame the guy screwing up his life himself. This guy I think had some serious personal problems.

People do things like this for vastly complicated reasons and to boil it down to one issue really isn't good or productive. This is right up there with stories of guys who have nothing and then turn around and make a billion dollars.

[Red Bayonet]

Our day will come!

[danyboy27]

It's as unproductive to blame "society" or the "economy" or the "government" for this guys suicide as it is to blame the guy screwing up his life himself. This guy I think had some serious personal problems.

People do things like this for vastly complicated reasons and to boil it down to one issue really isn't good or productive. This is right up there with stories of guys who have nothing and then turn around and make a billion dollars.

While i somehow agree with you on this, i think you are missing the point.

The increase in povrety level in america is pushing many reasonable people to the brink of extreme.

This guy is the exemple of a verry avearge american, someone who usually composed the middle class, a class who always seen itself has indestructible.

When reality hit you with a brick it change you forever.

this guy suicide is just the tip of the iceberg, More and more people are going to do extreme things in the coming year has a result of their utter desperations.

Why do you think communist party membership soared during the great depression?

[Bud Struggle]

While i somehow agree with you on this, i think you are missing the point.

The increase in povrety level in america is pushing many reasonable people to the brink of extreme.

This guy is the exemple of a verry avearge american, someone who usually composed the middle class, a class who always seen itself has indestructible.

When reality hit you with a brick it change you forever. Except this guy isn't the average American. The average American man at 25 makes $32,000 over that age the medium income is $40,000 a year.


this guy suicide is just the tip of the iceberg, More and more people are going to do extreme things in the coming year has a result of their utter desperations. I'm sorry the guy killed himself--but his letter was just high drama.


Why do you think communist party membership soared during the great depression? Maybe it's the same reason it is so low today.

[danyboy27]

Except this guy isn't the average American. The average American man at 25 makes $32,000 over that age the medium income is $40,000 a year.
.
i am curious, what is your source?




I'm sorry the guy killed himself--but his letter was just high drama.

he just wanted the world to know why he did it. There is no drama here.
if i was about to leave this world executed, starving on an island or, i dont know from the fallout of a nuclear war, i would probably write a letter about my demise has well.



Maybe it's the same reason it is so low today.
Time change, mean of fighting back and rebel change has well.

Has i said, when reality will hit the middle class with a brick, things will change.

For now a large number of people in the population are able to deny that there is any problem, they still have a job, and they can still offord food, fuel and shelter, and even tho everything is crashing down around they, they can still deny.

but at a certain point, when the majority of american will be deeply affected by this crisis, when there will be large queue for food, increased criminality and unaffordable gasoline, they will suddenly realize what kind of mess is going on.

Its gonna get ugly soon bud, brace yourself.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Except this guy isn't the average American. The average American man at 25 makes $32,000 over that age the medium income is $40,000 a year.

Maybe he wasn't "average" at the time he offed himself, but maybe he was sometime before? Or perhaps he had been brought up in a middle-class family and did not think it unreasonable to expect an average income for himself when he left home (the American Dream, right?).

Another problem is that the growing rich-poor divide in the US is such that it would have been likely that he was one of the ones caught in the open by the ever-increasing gaps in American society.


I'm sorry the guy killed himself--but his letter was just high drama.

Perhaps there was something else he could have done to highlight the economic injustices he was suffering. But people don't tend to think straight when driven to desperation, and in any case, even if he had found some other way of publicising his position (which is also the position of an increasing amount of Americans), you would have likely found some other trite phrase to dismiss him with.


Maybe it's the same reason it is so low today.

You shouldn't confuse the official rolls of Marxist-Leninist and reformist parties with the entirety of the class conscious workforce. I'm given to understand that grassroots activism is alive and well.

[RGacky3]

I'm sorry the guy killed himself--but his letter was just high drama.


It's as unproductive to blame "society" or the "economy" or the "government" for this guys suicide as it is to blame the guy screwing up his life himself. This guy I think had some serious personal problems.


Except this guy isn't the average American. The average American man at 25 makes $32,000 over that age the medium income is $40,000 a year.


Bud ... don't post in this thread, seriously.

Your trying to defend a Savage system, and causes this sort of savagery ...... And in this context, its just sick.

High Drama? Go fuck yourself.

This is about 20% of the population Bud, and probably a lot more that work dead end jobs and baerly make ends meat (and watch their lives go by).

Heres the difference between a right winger and a left winger.

A left winger sees this and has compassion and is discusted that this stuff happens.

A right winger sees this and calls it "high drama."

Have some fucking decency.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

It's as unproductive to blame "society" or the "economy" or the "government" for this guys suicide as it is to blame the guy screwing up his life himself. This guy I think had some serious personal problems.

People do things like this for vastly complicated reasons and to boil it down to one issue really isn't good or productive. This is right up there with stories of guys who have nothing and then turn around and make a billion dollars.
The phenomenon of a poor guy, living in shitty conditions, resulting in his mental health deteriorating and his suicide, is far more common than that of a guy from shitty conditions making a billion that simply. Apart from this being a generally accepted reality based on a mere walk down most highstreets, or conversation with practically anybody in poor communities, what do you have to suggest that the phenomenon of a person from poor conditions making a billion (or wealth in any sense) anywhere near correlates to that of suicide rates amongst the poor?

The stats speak for themselves, not that we need them, as we have lived under this system for hundreds of years and have seen that suicides are far more common amongst the poor than poor kids making huge wealth.

[Bud Struggle]

i am curious, what is your source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

Actually it's a pretty good article all the way around. Read it.


he just wanted the world to know why he did it. There is no drama here.
if i was about to leave this world executed, starving on an island or, i dont know from the fallout of a nuclear war, i would probably write a letter about my demise has well. Blame to everyone--none for himself. If I screwed up my life--I'd be point the finger straight at Bud and no one else. The last thing I'd ever think about is "it's Bush's fault." To each his own I guess.


Bud ... don't post in this thread, seriously.

Your trying to defend a Savage system, and causes this sort of savagery ...... And in this context, its just sick.

High Drama? Go fuck yourself.

This is about 20% of the population Bud, and probably a lot more that work dead end jobs and baerly make ends meat (and watch their lives go by).

Heres the difference between a right winger and a left winger.

A left winger sees this and has compassion and is discusted that this stuff happens.

A right winger sees this and calls it "high drama."

Have some fucking decency.Do you feel sorry for all of those Wall Streeters that committed suicide after the 1929 crash? See, it's all relative.

You are writing at the top of your lungs. As August pointed out in your previous thread--maudlin sentiments don't win Revolutions.

[Dimentio]

It's as unproductive to blame "society" or the "economy" or the "government" for this guys suicide as it is to blame the guy screwing up his life himself. This guy I think had some serious personal problems.

People do things like this for vastly complicated reasons and to boil it down to one issue really isn't good or productive. This is right up there with stories of guys who have nothing and then turn around and make a billion dollars.

At the same time, a guaranteed minimum income would have prevented things like these from happening. Everyone could not own their own home, but no one would need to go hungry or without a home either.

[Sentinel]

A suicide can never be recommended, but sometimes it can be a very powerful weapon. Actually we have only this year already witnessed two revolutions that were sparked by the suicide of a desperate man who had been deprived of the means to support himself financially, by confiscating his vegetable chart.

So yeah, perhaps the mighty capital indeed should tremble when they hear these news. Who knows which incident will be the last straw for the people, and then there's no turning back.

[Dimentio]

America has a different culture than the Arab World, which has a history of communitarianism.

[Sentinel]

America has a different culture than the Arab World, which has a history of communitarianism.

Well yeah, but who could have predicted the events in Tunisia and Egypt either? My point is that things happen fast, when the last straw is reached.

[Decolonize The Left]

This is a sad example of what happens when an individual reaches relative deprivation, but has no support networks upon which to rely.

- August

[Bud Struggle]

At the same time, a guaranteed minimum income would have prevented things like these from happening. Everyone could not own their own home, but no one would need to go hungry or without a home either.

There's food stamps, Section 8 housing. Welfare. A hundred government programs and lots of other private programs. This suicide makes for great "us v. them" hysterics, but this is just a bit of theatre--created by a person with real mental problems.

What I find apalling is that people like Gacky use a person's mental instability for political gain.

[Bud Struggle]

This is a sad example of what happens when an individual reaches relative deprivation, but has no support networks upon which to rely.

- August

There are support networks. He chose to grand stand rather than use them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What I find apalling is that people like Gacky use a person's mental instability for political gain.


There are support networks. He chose to grand stand rather than use them.

Make up your damn mind. Either he was mentally unstable, and therefore not responsible for his actions, or he was "grandstanding" to make a "statement".

[Sentinel]

Another good question is that if he indeed was mentally unstable, why is that?

Could it just have been the good old insecurity of life in capitalism..? :unsure:

:rolleyes:

[B5C]

I don't support suicide, but I can see why some people think they need to do it. This why we need to prevent people like the author of the letter not to fall through the cracks. Does the US government really care? No. Author is just one man and one voice. Yet this is a problem. He should not be a one man and one voice. This should have been many men and many voices.

We can not let this continue. Most 99ers are not lazy people. I was unemployed for 7 months and it's hard to get a job. It's worse when your over 60. Also he is right that most employers don't want unemployed. Most employers believe if your unemployed that there is something wrong with you not to be kept and also it easier to filter through resumes.

[Decolonize The Left]

There are support networks. He chose to grand stand rather than use them.

Maybe you glossed over the suicide note, but the man is quite lucid and references all the networks which are 'available' but unable to help him. He also states how long he's been looking for work, for food, etc..

- August

[Bud Struggle]

Make up your damn mind. Either he was mentally unstable, and therefore not responsible for his actions, or he was "grandstanding" to make a "statement".

Sorry I didn't know that mentally unstable people were always little walflowers that never make a peep!

You heard the letter, right? Was that guy mentally fit? Was Ted Kazynski? We are WAY out of the range of rationality. (Granted, not for a Trotskyite, but for most people. :D )

There's more here than just "the system sucks."

[B5C]

Maybe you glossed over the suicide note, but the man is quite lucid and references all the networks which are 'available' but unable to help him. He also states how long he's been looking for work, for food, etc..

- August

I would also ad that most support networks requires people to meet in certain requirements. A lot of people fall through the cracks because they have too much, too less, not female, don't have kids, or not an minority.

[Dimentio]

There's food stamps, Section 8 housing. Welfare. A hundred government programs and lots of other private programs. This suicide makes for great "us v. them" hysterics, but this is just a bit of theatre--created by a person with real mental problems.

What I find apalling is that people like Gacky use a person's mental instability for political gain.

The thing is. Social programmes of that kind are coming with a certain social stigma, a stigma aimed at making people want to work, even with jobs that are less desirable. The problem is that such jobs would be increasingly rare in the future.

So now we are left with people who feel they lack status and have no ability to gain that social status. The humanitarian thing would be to try to reduce the stigma.

Not as the most stupid system ever: Phase 3.

[Bud Struggle]

Maybe you glossed over the suicide note, but the man is quite lucid and references all the networks which are 'available' but unable to help him. He also states how long he's been looking for work, for food, etc..

- August

Do you really think he was rationally stable? Really? You don't think that was one long rambling diatribe? You don't think you could find similar people with similar problems in Cuba?

This is nothing but "feelgoodism" for the Left.

[Bud Struggle]

Old Budley McEvil can answer each and every one of your comments. (Too busy beating up widows and stealing money from orphans in real life.) But I'll try to answer most of your posts. :)

[Dimentio]

As for welfare-related suicides, my experience from noting them shows a pattern. Those most likely to commit suicide out of things like unemployment and homelessness are generally males who either themselves have had companies or well-paid jobs, or come from families with such characteristics.

That is a function of the rapid loss of social status which is causing depression. Was a case in a town near the area where I grew up (a small town where small-company owners were seen as the upper class, in the place I grew up, those with much land had higher social status). A store owner who had gone bankcrupt blew his head of in his daughter's bedroom when his wife worked and the kids were at school. Apparently, he had pretended for three weeks that his company was still up and running.

ubWVznIj_xg

[Decolonize The Left]

Do you really think he was rationally stable?

For the most part, yes I do. He was certainly seriously depressed, though I'd be more willing to attribute this to social circumstances than chemical imbalances, especially given the work-history noted in the letter.


Really? You don't think that was one long rambling diatribe? You don't think you could find similar people with similar problems in Cuba?

I do think it was a long diatribe, yes. But this person was writing their last letter - I'd expect it to be long.

Personally, I'm not drawn out about his death. I didn't know the guy and while I sympathize with his situation, I'm not crying over it. I tried to look at this honestly when I said that he'd reached relative deprivation (which is obvious) but he didn't have any way to get beyond this point so he took his life. It's sad, but understandable given the situation.


This is nothing but "feelgoodism" for the Left.

Actually, there's a suicide note of a dead man.

You've claimed that he's mentally unstable.
You've claimed that he's grandstanding.
You've claimed that you somehow know what he went through.
You've claimed that you somehow know what he could have done.

In reality, you don't know shit.

Get your fucking facts straight and show some respect.

- August

[Dimentio]

It is often an assumption in our society that mentally unstable people are somehow "the other" and thus deserving either of patronism or ridicule.

[Bud Struggle]

Actually, there's a suicide note of a dead man.

You've claimed that he's mentally unstable.
You've claimed that he's grandstanding.
You've claimed that you somehow know what he went through.
You've claimed that you somehow know what he could have done.

In reality, you don't know shit.

Get your fucking facts straight and show some respect.

- August

True I don't know the facts and neither do you.

Did he REALLY exhaust every means available to him?
Did he seek help for his problem?
Did he contact his local welfare officer?
Did he apply for housing vouchers?
Did he apply for food stamps?

You don't know any of that. You just have his "blame America" letter and you are going off on that.

Not enough. But my problem isn't with him. My sympathy goes to him. It's with you (and yours) milking his death for your political capital.

[Dimentio]

What was his background?

Every time I have seen a similar suicide, it has been a person who once either had a high-status job or owned a company.

[Decolonize The Left]

True I don't know the facts and neither do you.

Did he REALLY exhaust every means available to him?
Did he seek help for his problem?
Did he contact his local welfare officer?
Did he apply for housing vouchers?
Did he apply for food stamps?

You don't know any of that. You just have his "blame America" letter and you are going off on that.

Not enough. But my problem isn't with him. My sympathy goes to him. It's with you (and yours) milking his death for your political capital.

The point is that it's vastly more likely that he did these things before he killed himself than he didn't. Either you have absolutely no experience in dealing with suicide or you're willing to shit on the whole deal, but killing yourself is a serious fucking decision.

If he was hungry, he probably applied for food stamps.
If he needed a place to live as he couldn't afford his rent, he probably applied for housing vouchers.

This is a rational approach to the situation - viewing and treating this dead man as a rational man when he was alive who attempted to do what he could for himself.
You, on the other hand, are writing it off because you are either unable to relate to the situation, or you feel threatened by it. Either way, your account of his craziness and yet at the same time fully logical mental faculties used towards the end of grandstanding is nonsensical and rather pathetic.

And finally, I'm not milking anyone's death and resent the accusation on your part. Supply some evidence or quit your bullshit.

- August

[Lord Testicles]

True I don't know the facts and neither do you.

Did he REALLY exhaust every means available to him?
Did he seek help for his problem?
Did he contact his local welfare officer?
Did he apply for housing vouchers?
Did he apply for food stamps?

You don't know any of that. You just have his "blame America" letter and you are going off on that.


Blame the victim much, Bud?


Not enough. But my problem isn't with him. My sympathy goes to him. It's with you (and yours) milking his death for your political capital.

It evidently doesn't.

[danyboy27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

Actually it's a pretty good article all the way around. Read it.

.
the definition of avearge joe of this article is based in a 2005 census.
humm, i wonder what changed since 2005? haa yea, recession!




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe
Blame to everyone--none for himself. If I screwed up my life--I'd be point the finger straight at Bud and no one else. The last thing I'd ever think about is "it's Bush's fault." To each his own I guess.
.
lol its like saying anne frank was a drama queen for being killed by the nazi, she should have left when the nazi started rounding up people.

[Bud Struggle]

The point is that it's vastly more likely that he did these things before he killed himself than he didn't. Either you have absolutely no experience in dealing with suicide or you're willing to shit on the whole deal, but killing yourself is a serious fucking decision.

If he was hungry, he probably applied for food stamps.
If he needed a place to live as he couldn't afford his rent, he probably applied for housing vouchers.

This is a rational approach to the situation - viewing and treating this dead man as a rational man when he was alive who attempted to do what he could for himself.
You, on the other hand, are writing it off because you are either unable to relate to the situation, or you feel threatened by it. Either way, your account of his craziness and yet at the same time fully logical mental faculties used towards the end of grandstanding is nonsensical and rather pathetic.

And finally, I'm not milking anyone's death and resent the accusation on your part. Supply some evidence or quit your bullshit.

- August

Me supply evidence? You just posted an entily fictitious account of this guys life up to the point of his suicide. "Probably this and probably that."

My evidence is that he wrote a long and rambling account of not only his life but of the America of his child hood and contrasted it to the America of today, he blamed wall street and bankers and government and everyone but himself for his situation.

You don't think a rathional person "might" have included his own actions in his problems?

If he actually DID the things you think he did--why didn't he state them> He certainly stated enough of what he didn't like about America in GENERAL. If he was screwed over by America why didn't he state the particulars. "DAMN that Food Stamp Program!" For example. No it's the "bankers." See the problem?

There are too many holes in his speech when it is examined closely.

[Dimentio]

Me supply evidence? You just posted an entily fictitious account of this guys life up to the point of his suicide. "Probably this and probably that."

My evidence is that he wrote a long and rambling account of not only his life but of the America of his child hood and contrasted it to the America of today, he blamed wall street and bankers and government and everyone but himself for his situation.

You don't think a rathional person "might" have included his own actions in his problems?

If he actually DID the things you think he did--why didn't he state them> He certainly stated enough of what he didn't like about America in GENERAL. If he was screwed over by America why didn't he state the particulars. "DAMN that Food Stamp Program!" For example. No it's the "bankers." See the problem?

There are too many holes in his speech when it is examined closely.

No, rational people seldom put their own responsibility into the equation. That is a safe system of the brain to prevent emotionally damaging thoughts to arise.

"Oh, I fucked up High School. Guess that I am worthless and need to crush my testicles with a stone in public, then punish myself because I did that by poking out my eyes, then..."

[Bud Struggle]

No, Radical Leftists seldom put their own responsibility into the equation. That is a safe system of the brain to prevent emotionally damaging thoughts to arise.

"Oh, I fucked up High School. Guess that I am worthless and need to crush my testicles with a stone in public, then punish myself because I did that by poking out my eyes, then..."

Changed that. :D

Seriously. It's the only way you learn from your mistakes. I fault myself all of the time--and then I don't do that again. You examin the situation coldly and ask if you could have done better with the information you had AT THE TIME.

Then when a similar situation come up--you see if your previous lesson apples and then make your decisions accordingly. Becomming successful isn't happenstance it's hard work with much self analysis and criticism.

Actually the above may just be the key to success in the Capitalist world. :)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No, rational people seldom put their own responsibility into the equation. That is a safe system of the brain to prevent emotionally damaging thoughts to arise.

"Oh, I fucked up High School. Guess that I am worthless and need to crush my testicles with a stone in public, then punish myself because I did that by poking out my eyes, then..."

Erm, what's rational about mutilating oneself? Surely some kind of corrective action or attempt to change behaviour would be the rational response to personal failure.

Bud Struggle:

The thing is, capitalist society is heavily stratified, with a minority of super-rich at the top with the rest being exploited to varying degrees. Which do you think most people end up?

This means that personal corrective actions or attempts to change behaviour can only go so far, and don't address the fundamental problems of society. If the source of the problem is the socio-economic system, and there is good reason to believe it does, then the change must be social and economic, not personal.

The capitalist emphasis on the individual serves to atomise society so that people come to think the universe revolves around them. This can be seen in churches that preach the "prosperity gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology)", the success of best-selling books like The Secret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%28book%29), the promotion of positive thinking among companies that have downsized and in business generally, shall I go on?

[danyboy27]

you havnt answered my arguments bud, can i conclude from this that you cant refute them, or do you need more time to think about it?

[Reznov]

The real question to ask is, would this happen in a Post-Revolutionary society?

I personally believe there will always be certain people who cannot stand a specific system and be torn to depression. I know, it sounds like Social Darwinism, but realistically speaking someone would always find a problem with a certain type of life/society.

[Bud Struggle]

This one dany? Sorry it was Bud contra mundum

he just wanted the world to know why he did it. There is no drama here.

if i was about to leave this world executed, starving on an island or, i dont know from the fallout of a nuclear war, i would probably write a letter about my demise has well. But you have no choice in what happens in a nuclear war. This guy could have found a place to help him. They are out there. He may have--but he never mentioned it. All he stated was how he hates the United States.



Time change, mean of fighting back and rebel change has well.

Has i said, when reality will hit the middle class with a brick, things will change.

For now a large number of people in the population are able to deny that there is any problem, they still have a job, and they can still offord food, fuel and shelter, and even tho everything is crashing down around they, they can still deny. For some people the world IS crashing down. For some people it ALWAYS has been crashing down. But not for the vast majority of people. For the worst off Americans life is better than the rest of the world. There are a few that fall through the cracks--and that should be fixed. and we should all work for that.


but at a certain point, when the majority of american will be deeply affected by this crisis, when there will be large queue for food, increased criminality and unaffordable gasoline, they will suddenly realize what kind of mess is going on. When that day happens then I will concede that you were right. Up to now for most Americans it's business as usual. Not all of course.


Its gonna get ugly soon bud, brace yourself. That's why people are voting for the Tea Party.

[Lord Testicles]

The real question to ask is, would this happen in a Post-Revolutionary society?

I personally believe there will always be certain people who cannot stand a specific system and be torn to depression. I know, it sounds like Social Darwinism, but realistically speaking someone would always find a problem with a certain type of life/society.

There is a difference between arbitrarily not being able to stand a specific system and not being able to afford to live.

[danyboy27]

no bud, these:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

Actually it's a pretty good article all the way around. Read it.

.
the definition of avearge joe of this article is based in a 2005 census.
humm, i wonder what changed since 2005? haa yea, recession!




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe
Blame to everyone--none for himself. If I screwed up my life--I'd be point the finger straight at Bud and no one else. The last thing I'd ever think about is "it's Bush's fault." To each his own I guess.
.
lol its like saying anne frank was a drama queen for being killed by the nazi, she should have left when the nazi started rounding up people.

[RGacky3]

There's food stamps, Section 8 housing. Welfare. A hundred government programs and lots of other private programs. This suicide makes for great "us v. them" hysterics, but this is just a bit of theatre--created by a person with real mental problems.

What I find apalling is that people like Gacky use a person's mental instability for political gain.

For political gain? This was political!!! The government CUT services (such as the ones your talking about), made them harder to get, and this guy was left in desperation.

This guy died as a result of Capitalism, and public policy.


There are support networks. He chose to grand stand rather than use them.

You don't know what was available to him.


You don't know any of that. You just have his "blame America" letter and you are going off on that.

Not enough. But my problem isn't with him. My sympathy goes to him. It's with you (and yours) milking his death for your political capital.

We did'nt blame America, HE DID, and the fact that your trying to distance his death from the political realities that caused it, just to defend your Team-America, I did'nt think you would stoop that low.


Me supply evidence? You just posted an entily fictitious account of this guys life up to the point of his suicide. "Probably this and probably that."

My evidence is that he wrote a long and rambling account of not only his life but of the America of his child hood and contrasted it to the America of today, he blamed wall street and bankers and government and everyone but himself for his situation.

You don't think a rathional person "might" have included his own actions in his problems?

If he actually DID the things you think he did--why didn't he state them> He certainly stated enough of what he didn't like about America in GENERAL. If he was screwed over by America why didn't he state the particulars. "DAMN that Food Stamp Program!" For example. No it's the "bankers." See the problem?

There are too many holes in his speech when it is examined closely.

For one fucking second, before you re-read what you wrote, and think about it, how the fuck can you call yourself a Christian?

Just look at the assumptions your making, we are reading what he wrote, and what he wrote was a letter from a completely rational and desperate man, read what he wrote again, read his whole letter (you can find it online).

As for those that killed themselves on wallstreet, eyah I feel sorry for them, but why the hell are you bringing them up? YOUR trying to make a political point, your trying to defend the undefensable.

Your exactly like the Stalininsts that try to find excuses for what clearly was state terror.


This guy could have found a place to help him. They are out there. He may have--but he never mentioned it. All he stated was how he hates the United States.


READ THE LETTER, over the last 20 years they've been cutting and cutting and cutting help to the desperate, this is the result.


For some people the world IS crashing down. For some people it ALWAYS has been crashing down. But not for the vast majority of people. For the worst off Americans life is better than the rest of the world. There are a few that fall through the cracks--and that should be fixed. and we should all work for that.


Your not paying any attention at all.




I think its just important to point out the difference of attitude between a leftist and people like Bud, yet people like Bud are the first to jump on the Christian bandwagon, the right winger looks at this and says "well I guess he did'nt taker personal responsiblity" the guy was gonna go to the dump and find food.

Bud again, just don't post here, your letting out a very ugly side of you.

"High Drama ... " You don't fore one second understand how that response is discusting ... "personal responsibility?"

I guess maybe she should'nt have worn that dress when she got raped huh? Maybe she should stop whining about it and take some resonsibility. Now I know your gonna react to that, because its a chliche example of blaiming the victim, but thats exactly what your doing. Re-read what you post before you post.

[Blackscare]

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.

[RGacky3]

This Guy, mentally stable (based on the letter), chooses to kill himself rather than inevitable dying slowly the way he would, and the way many AMericans do, and in his letter points out the system that brought this situation to him and millions of other Americans ..... And Bud Calls it High Drama, then says "oh the system fine, he's a bad apple" then says "oh he should have done more to take care of himself" or "oh he just hates America," and he does'nt understand how that is discusting.

Bud does'nt feel any shame talking like that, he does'nt know the difference between decency and shame, obviously, read your bible.

There's no point trying to argue rational with a guy like Bud, he's only interested in one thing, Team-America, Team-Boss, thats it, and even something like this does'nt shake him from that, how can you reason with a guy like that?

[Bud Struggle]

no bud, these:


the definition of avearge joe of this article is based in a 2005 census.
humm, i wonder what changed since 2005? haa yea, recession!



This was hard to find. anyway:

The average amounts of wages calculated directly from our data were $39,652.61 and $39,054.62 for 2008 and 2009, respectively.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html


So you can see the hit the recession took.

[Dimentio]

Changed that. :D

Seriously. It's the only way you learn from your mistakes. I fault myself all of the time--and then I don't do that again. You examin the situation coldly and ask if you could have done better with the information you had AT THE TIME.

Then when a similar situation come up--you see if your previous lesson apples and then make your decisions accordingly. Becomming successful isn't happenstance it's hard work with much self analysis and criticism.

Actually the above may just be the key to success in the Capitalist world. :)

In Sweden, if you fail once to start a company, no one would ever want to lend money to you again. Unless if your dad is a millionaire.

[Sentinel]

Indeed, Bud, like I said. Whatever the final straw is -- be it a suicide of a man whose life has been ruined by capitalism, or a governor attacking the unions -- when things start rolling it can happen fast (http://www.revleft.com/vb/wisconsin-war-declared-t150095/index.html).

We are moving into a new era of revolutions now, and you will never see them coming. Did you know that some of the protesters have been waving egyptian flags in Wisconsin?

[Revolution starts with U]

If that's true, it will give me chills... in a good way :thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

Its true.

[Revolution starts with U]

Basically what I meant was... sources?

[Revolution starts with U]

There gona do the same thing here in Ohio. A big protest is being staged in Youngstown. I'll be there :thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/files/vfs/2011/02/1.jpg

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/files/vfs/2011/02/243363250.jpg
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/files/vfs/2011/02/enhanced-buzz-13743-1297979951-25.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

Well I side with the Unions in this one. The state already MADE the agreemet to give the unions collective barganing. Once a deal is made--it's made. Now if the unions didn't have CB and the state wanted to prevent them from getting it--that's another matter.

But to TAKE AWAY something that was already barganed for and granted--is indeed wrong.

[Goatpie]

:(
"There's room at the top
there telling you still
But first you must learn
how to smile as you kill" John Lennon

[Revolution starts with U]

Thanks Gack. That's what I wanted to see. I'm all happy and giddy now, like a school child who just got a new puppy.

[Amphictyonis]

There's food stamps, Section 8 housing. Welfare. A hundred government programs and lots of other private programs. This suicide makes for great "us v. them" hysterics, but this is just a bit of theatre--created by a person with real mental problems.

What I find apalling is that people like Gacky use a person's mental instability for political gain.

Have you ever applied for food stamps? It can take up to 6 months. Section 8 housing? In the Bay Area there's a 3 year waiting list and in San Fransisco you have to start out in Hunters Point. It would be safer to be homeless. If you think material conditions can't cause "mental instability" then you're pretty much ignorant. Sorry. Why do you think the poor are the vast majority in US prisons? Because they're just shitty people and material conditions have nothing to do with it?

[RGacky3]

Well I side with the Unions in this one. The state already MADE the agreemet to give the unions collective barganing. Once a deal is made--it's made. Now if the unions didn't have CB and the state wanted to prevent them from getting it--that's another matter.

But to TAKE AWAY something that was already barganed for and granted--is indeed wrong.

Collective bargening is not something a state can give or take away, its a basic human right.


Have you ever applied for food stamps? It can take up to 6 months. Section 8 housing? In the Bay Area there's a 3 year waiting list and in San Fransisco you have to start out in Hunters Point. It would be safer to be homeless. If you think material conditions can't cause "mental instability" then you're pretty much ignorant. Sorry. Why do you think the poor are the vast majority in US prisons? Because they're just shitty people and material conditions have nothing to do with it?

Logic and facts don't work with Bud, he's for team America, material conditions be damned.

[Bud Struggle]

Collective bargening is not something a state can give or take away, its a basic human right. Just like property rights. :)

[RGacky3]

Just like property rights. :)

No, not like property rights, property rights require a state to enforce it, collective bargening requires a state to take it away.

Btw, try make an argument for once.

[Bud Struggle]

No, not like property rights, property rights require a state to enforce it, collective bargening requires a state to take it away.

Btw, try make an argument for once.

I was responding to your one liner with my one liner. And what does it mater how things are inforced? As a matter of fact the state LIMITS my property rights. It taxes me, It gives people that don;t have my resources equal tights with me so that I just can't take what I want.

Collective barganing is just a construct that FOLLOWDED property rights. It's not something written in the law Now you can aquire those rights in contracts with other people if you so desire--but that is strictly a private concern.

[Bud Struggle]

Have you ever applied for food stamps? It can take up to 6 months. Section 8 housing? In the Bay Area there's a 3 year waiting list and in San Fransisco you have to start out in Hunters Point. It would be safer to be homeless.

I don't know the Bay Area, but I have owned Section 8 housing in the past. And for the most part it's a pretty good system for people that need housing. For that matter Food stamps work pretty well, too. Thosepeople that need it are given crediti cards and can buy whatever they need to live. I don't know the waiting time--but the facitities are there to help.

And there is always short term food available to help in the mean time.

It's not like there's nothing--it's there. Maybe you have to go out of your way to get it--but it's there.

[Unclebananahead]

lmr3Cv95sQU

This is Capitalist America.

This should be read out every day on Wallstreet, every day congress opens this letter should be read, untill those people learn to feel a little bit of Shame.

Wow, that's pretty horrific. Sums up just how ugly and cruel capitalism really is.

[RGacky3]

I don't know the Bay Area, but I have owned Section 8 housing in the past. And for the most part it's a pretty good system for people that need housing. For that matter Food stamps work pretty well, too. Thosepeople that need it are given crediti cards and can buy whatever they need to live. I don't know the waiting time--but the facitities are there to help.

And there is always short term food available to help in the mean time.

It's not like there's nothing--it's there. Maybe you have to go out of your way to get it--but it's there.

Well BUd, its your word, that things are just flowery, against the millions and millions that live through the hell of extreme poverty in the US.


I was responding to your one liner with my one liner. And what does it mater how things are inforced? As a matter of fact the state LIMITS my property rights. It taxes me, It gives people that don;t have my resources equal tights with me so that I just can't take what I want.

Collective barganing is just a construct that FOLLOWDED property rights. It's not something written in the law Now you can aquire those rights in contracts with other people if you so desire--but that is strictly a private concern.

It matters how things are enforced because if it is IMPOSED by the state, then its not a right, property is imposed.

Collective bargaining is freedom of association, which is not imposed.

[Bud Struggle]

Well BUd, its your word, that things are just flowery, against the millions and millions that live through the hell of extreme poverty in the US. Some people have hard lives--some of those hard lives are caused through no fault of the person in question. And the state has mechinisms to help these people.

But for the most part people in the USA take responsibility for their own failures and successes. that's they way it's set up and for the most part that's the way people like it. The PEOPLE of the US just elected a Congress to more or less keep things that way. If they want things to change they could always tune into Tom Hartmann on RU and watch him instead of Bill O'Rielly and then vote accordingly.

It's all available.


It matters how things are enforced because if it is IMPOSED by the state, then its not a right, property is imposed.

Collective bargaining is freedom of association, which is not imposed.

No it isn't freedom of association. Thy are two different things. Freedom of association is a freedom GRANTED under the Constitution. Collective barganing isn't.

[RGacky3]

But for the most part people in the USA take responsibility for their own failures and successes. that's they way it's set up and for the most part that's the way people like it.

Except its not that way AT ALL, no one on top took responsibility for the failures on top and they took it out on people who had no responsiblity for their failures.

Most people in the US understand that, and are not as simple minded as you when it comes to economics.


The PEOPLE of the US just elected a Congress to more or less keep things that way.

Most people did'nt vote, and there was no option to change things.


No it isn't freedom of association. Thy are two different things. Freedom of association is a freedom GRANTED under the Constitution. Collective barganing isn't.

Collective barganing IS freedom of association, they're essnecially the same thing. Its freedom of association and freedom fo speech.

[Bud Struggle]

Except its not that way AT ALL, no one on top took responsibility for the failures on top and they took it out on people who had no responsiblity for their failures.

Most people in the US understand that, and are not as simple minded as you when it comes to economics. Very few people on the top of the bottom take responsibility for their own actions.


Most people did'nt vote, and there was no option to change things. Then it's their fault if things aren't to their liking. They DO have the option to vote. They can change things if they so want. If they don't take the responsibility for themselves and their world--then they have to live with the way things are. People don't take individual OR collective responsibility for their lives.


Collective barganing IS freedom of association, they're essnecially the same thing. Its freedom of association and freedom fo speech. Read the Consitiution. You could assemble all you want. You could discuss anything you want. That's freedom of association. You want people to take you SERIOUSLY? That's collective barganing--and that you have to earn.

[RGacky3]

Read the Consitiution. You could assemble all you want. You could discuss anything you want. That's freedom of association. You want people to take you SERIOUSLY? That's collective barganing--and that you have to earn.

IF YOU BAN COLLECTIVE BARGENING, YOU ARE BANNING A FORM OF ASSOCIATION.

Collective bargaining is BARGAINING!!! which means you still have to earn your victories.

Buy a dictionary Bud.


Very few people on the top of the bottom take responsibility for their own actions.


Very few of your posts are not total bullshit.

People on the tops actions have GIANT effects on other people, people on the bottoms actions have very very little effect.


Then it's their fault if things aren't to their liking. They DO have the option to vote. They can change things if they so want. If they don't take the responsibility for themselves and their world--then they have to live with the way things are. People don't take individual OR collective responsibility for their lives.


They don't vote because they realize democracy in the US is a sham, both parties work for corporate America, you can't change that just by voting.

[Bud Struggle]

They don't vote because they realize democracy in the US is a sham, both parties work for corporate America, you can't change that just by voting.

Gack--you can do anything you want. It takes effort. You want a Revolution--you can do it. You want to make a million dollars, you can do it. You wan ta Communist world you can build one. You want a Capitalist one--it's here already.

Gack, do you sell anything else but failure?

[Witan]

This is Capitalist America.

This should be read out every day on Wallstreet, every day congress opens this letter should be read, untill those people learn to feel a little bit of Shame.

This is what I'm afraid of. I'm in the second worst hit demographic after unemployed retirement-age people; unemployed recent college grads. Just like nobody would hire him because he was old, I can't find a job because I'm young and have no experience (but am too educated for a menial job).

Just yesterday I applied to MacDonalds as a burger-flipper. I'm not optimistic that I'll be hired.

[Revolution starts with U]

Very few people on the top of the bottom take responsibility for their own actions.
All I have to do to destroy this silly notion you have that rich people take responsibility and that's why they're rich, and poor people are the opposite hence why they're poor is to point to the bailouts.
There is no biological difference between the rich and the poor, and it is largely a matter of ingenuity, timing, and luck. Mostly luck, and to prove this I point to the 60% + of people who make the same income their parents did, adjusted for inflation.
You make the same arguments, we make the same counter points.


Then it's their fault if things aren't to their liking. They DO have the option to vote. They can change things if they so want. If they don't take the responsibility for themselves and their world--then they have to live with the way things are. People don't take individual OR collective responsibility for their lives.
Obama v McCain is a good set of options, am I right? :lol:
I'm a voter, and I advocate voting. But you know as well as I do that most poor people feel completely disenfranchised and don't vote because (they feel) it "does't work."


Read the Consitiution. You could assemble all you want. You could discuss anything you want. That's freedom of association. You want people to take you SERIOUSLY? That's collective barganing--and that you have to earn.
No. You're being very dense here BUd. You cannot assemble all you want, especially in "right to work (sic)" states. You cannot discuss all you want. Whether or not people take you seriously, you're usually not allowed to even get the ball rolling. And any time you can, that was directly caused by socialist agitation.
(Incoming one liner with no real substance about "rolling your sleeves up" and "personal responsiblity.")


Gack--you can do anything you want. It takes effort. You want a Revolution--you can do it. You want to make a million dollars, you can do it. You wan ta Communist world you can build one. You want a Capitalist one--it's here already.

Gack, do you sell anything else but failure?

That was just a sad ad hominem from an argument-less man backed in a corner. I feel genuine pity for you now, Bud :thumbdown:

[RGacky3]

Gack--you can do anything you want. It takes effort. You want a Revolution--you can do it. You want to make a million dollars, you can do it. You wan ta Communist world you can build one. You want a Capitalist one--it's here already.


Yeah, things can change, but not by just voting.


Gack, do you sell anything else but failure?

I sell Eygpt 2011, Tunesia, Bolivia, the Zapatistas, unions, strikes, so on.

Basically anything that has ever made life better for people, opened up opportunities for more people, and increased freedom.

BTW, Bud your dad worked in a factory as an immigrant, and got enough money to raise a family just by his work, thank a socialist for that.
You got to go to school instead of working, thank a socialist.
You as the son of an immigrant could not be discriminated against, thank a socialist.

you sell failure, because the status quo is a failure.

Why are you still arguing with me, you hav'nt learned your lesson yet, if you want to be respected you need to have an argument, now you just look pathetic.


This is what I'm afraid of. I'm in the second worst hit demographic after unemployed retirement-age people; unemployed recent college grads. Just like nobody would hire him because he was old, I can't find a job because I'm young and have no experience (but am too educated for a menial job).

Just yesterday I applied to MacDonalds as a burger-flipper. I'm not optimistic that I'll be hired.

Good luck, I hope things work out, unfortunately your right, the recent college grads are also the worst hit, not only due to the shitty job market, but also the loans. Get together with others in your boat, join groups like unions or groups for the unemployed.

BTW Bud says all you need to do is try hard enough, and work hard enough and ANYTHING is possible, which kind of implies that your not trying hard enough, its al there so its YOUR fault.

Yet Bud has no idea why he's a dick.

[Bud Struggle]

All I have to do to destroy this silly notion you have that rich people take responsibility and that's why they're rich, and poor people are the opposite hence why they're poor is to point to the bailouts.
There is no biological difference between the rich and the poor, and it is largely a matter of ingenuity, timing, and luck. Mostly luck, and to prove this I point to the 60% + of people who make the same income their parents did, adjusted for inflation.
You make the same arguments, we make the same counter points. What I was saying is that neither the people at the top OR the bottom take responsibility for their actions. And luck has something to do with people becomming successful--but for the most part successful people make their own luck.


Obama v McCain is a good set of options, am I right? :lol:
I'm a voter, and I advocate voting. But you know as well as I do that most poor people feel completely disenfranchised and don't vote because (they feel) it "does't work." The reason that the election was Obama v McCain is EXACTLY because peope don't vote. They don't get involved. They don't participate. This isn't Lybia. If people got involved they'd change thing. But they don't so this is what they get. If they don't care, why should I?

[uote]No. You're being very dense here BUd. You cannot assemble all you want, especially in "right to work (sic)" states. You cannot discuss all you want. [/quote] OK show me the law that says you can't discuss anythiong you want. show me the law you can assemble where you want. You don't have a clue about any of this.


Whether or not people take you seriously, you're usually not allowed to even get the ball rolling. And any time you can, that was directly caused by socialist agitation. Who exactly here is not allowing you to do things. It sounds like you're in 3rd grade. You can do anything you want.



That was just a sad ad hominem from an argument-less man backed in a corner. I feel genuine pity for you now, Bud :thumbdown:

Sorry, but it's a good life here in America if you study hard in school and work hard in life in life. Yea, bad things sometimes happen--but that's life.

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah, things can change, but not by just voting. I agree there--people have to organize and put forward their own candidates. They have to either start their own parties or take over the existing parties. They have to get up and get out of bed.




I sell Eygpt 2011, Tunesia, Bolivia, the Zapatistas, unions, strikes, so on. I'm happy with those victories--if that's what the people what and the people win. Good for them.


Basically anything that has ever made life better for people, opened up opportunities for more people, and increased freedom. I don't have any problem with that either. But if people aren't making it haqppen--I don't blame anyone but the people.


BTW, Bud your dad worked in a factory as an immigrant, and got enough money to raise a family just by his work, thank a socialist for that.
You got to go to school instead of working, thank a socialist.
You as the son of an immigrant could not be discriminated against, thank a socialist. I don't know it it was Socialists--but it definitely was the unions. And I'm not anti-Union. BUT (not me but my father) saw the union he was in go from a rather representitive helpful organization to a bunch of graft taking cronies. Where in the beginning you used to fight for the worker--towards the end all they did was go to meeting in Las Vagas and take bribes--each union has to be judged on what it is--not just on the fact that it's a union.

Sometimes no union is better than a bad union.


you sell failure, because the status quo is a failure. No the status quo works for the great number of people--it fails some but for the most part thise that fail do so of their own accord.

[RGacky3]

It sounds like you're in 3rd grade. You can do anything you want.


not by playing by the rules.

By the way, re-read that ...


Sorry, but it's a good life here in America if you study hard in school and work hard in life in life.

Again, an argument-less man backed into a corner trying to make statements that cannot be backed up by anything and statements that can be debunked just by opening your damn eyes.

I'm sorry Bud, your so clueless its amazing.


The reason that the election was Obama v McCain is EXACTLY because peope don't vote. They don't get involved. They don't participate. This isn't Lybia. If people got involved they'd change thing. But they don't so this is what they get. If they don't care, why should I?

ANY TIME change has ever happened has been through direct actoin, not by just voting.


What I was saying is that neither the people at the top OR the bottom take responsibility for their actions. And luck has something to do with people becomming successful--but for the most part successful people make their own luck.


For the most part you don't know what the hell your talking about. Nor do you have an argument. Nor do you have the ability to actually look at reality and understand context and power relations.


I agree there--people have to organize and put forward their own candidates. They have to either start their own parties or take over the existing parties. They have to get up and get out of bed.

They have to get rid of the political and economic system that is entirely stacked against them. What your saying is play by the rules, where you are at a giant disadvantage, I'm saying make your own damn rules.


I don't have any problem with that either. But if people aren't making it haqppen--I don't blame anyone but the people.


Do you blame the Jews for not revolting as well? Was the Soviet system the fault of the people? Are rape victim responsible for their own rape since they did'nt carry pepper spray?

You try SOOO hard to defend the system, you end up making a fool of yourself.


I don't know it it was Socialists--but it definitely was the unions

Most Unions were socialist.


Where in the beginning you used to fight for the worker--towards the end all they did was go to meeting in Las Vagas and take bribes--each union has to be judged on what it is--not just on the fact that it's a union.

Sometimes no union is better than a bad union.


Nope, not really, also unions help the industry and country as a whole.

DEMOCRATIC unions are always better than no union.


No the status quo works for the great number of people--it fails some but for the most part thise that fail do so of their own accord.

Thats funny, it seams Americans are just incompitant people then, way way more incompitant than other industrialized countries.

Aparently, over the last 10 years, a WHOLE LOT more people have become incompitant.

If your arguint that poverty in the richest country in the world is not a systemic problem, your only argument is that Americans are stupid.

[Bud Struggle]

Again, an argument-less man backed into a corner trying to make statements that cannot be backed up by anything and statements that can be debunked just by opening your damn eyes.

I'm sorry Bud, your so clueless its amazing. You have an argument here?


ANY TIME change has ever happened has been through direct actoin, not by just voting. You are repeating what I said.


For the most part you don't know what the hell your talking about. Nor do you have an argument. Nor do you have the ability to actually look at reality and understand context and power relations. You have an argument here?


They have to get rid of the political and economic system that is entirely stacked against them. What your saying is play by the rules, where you are at a giant disadvantage, I'm saying make your own damn rules. As I said they can do anyting they want. The Tea Party is doing just that. Let's see if the Socialists can gain some traction--


Do you blame the Jews for not revolting as well? Was the Soviet system the fault of the people? Are rape victim responsible for their own rape since they did'nt carry pepper spray? You are foaming at the mouth here (well you've been foaming all morning) Where do rape victims come into any of this. We're talking politics and economics. If that's the kid of argument YOU HAVE. Well I guess you don't have much to say either. :D


You try SOOO hard to defend the system, you end up making a fool of yourself. And your argument here?


Most Unions were socialist. Maybe, but they aren't anymore.


NopDEMOCRATIC unions are always better than no union. You are repeating what I said.


Thats funny, it seams Americans are just incompitant people then, way way more incompitant than other industrialized countries. America is a LARGE country. It's not a little botique coountry like Norway of Sweden. It has different problems.


Aparently, over the last 10 years, a WHOLE LOT more people have become incompitant. Whay would you think that?


If your arguint that poverty in the richest country in the world is not a systemic problem, your only argument is that Americans are stupid.That's not my argument. It is a problem and it needs to be worked on. Constantly and consistantly. But since a Revolution in the US isn't going to happen anytime soon--maybe it's better to work to resolve those issues than just putting on your tinfoil hat and wishing for Socialism to happen here.

[RGacky3]

You have an argument here?


The argument has been made over and over again how systemic problems cause poverty.


As I said they can do anyting they want. The Tea Party is doing just that.

Its not the Tea Party, its americans for prosperity.


You are foaming at the mouth here (well you've been foaming all morning) Where do rape victims come into any of this. We're talking politics and economics. If that's the kid of argument YOU HAVE. Well I guess you don't have much to say either. :D


Its the same premis that your presenting, your saying if the "people" allow themselves to be exploited by not having a revolution, its their own fault for being exploited.

all what I mentioned are the exact same premis, thats the argument.


Maybe, but they aren't anymore.


When they got things done they were, so yeah ... go thank a socialist.


America is a LARGE country. It's not a little botique coountry like Norway of Sweden. It has different problems.


Its a large country with a much larger economy. It has different problems because other countries took care of them and the US has a terrible system.


Whay would you think that?


I don't, but aparently you do.


That's not my argument. It is a problem and it needs to be worked on. Constantly and consistantly. But since a Revolution in the US isn't going to happen anytime soon--maybe it's better to work to resolve those issues than just putting on your tinfoil hat and wishing for Socialism to happen here.

You resolve those issues by fighting against the system and forcing it to change, thats how those issues have always gotten resolved, not by your bootstrap bullshit.


You have an argument here?


Most of the time no because you hav'nt presented an argument to respond to, nor have you responded to any arguments.

[Le Libérer]

This is Capitalist America.

This should be read out every day on Wallstreet, every day congress opens this letter should be read, untill those people learn to feel a little bit of Shame.

Yes this is Capitalist America. And its getting worse and worse. With these budget cuts and complete removal of social programs, we will see more deaths, illness, poverty, hunger, and homelessness. A large number of Americans are one paycheck away from losing their home, and most live on the border of poverty, just right above the limits for federal assistance.

All the above does cause hopelessness to those who are going through it. I'm sorry this man felt the only option was to kill himself. And it sounds like he ran out of unemployment benefits after a couple of years. But had he been linked into the system, he would have gotten services. I work with homeless people. I know the system. Even in the shittiest, poorest state in the US, theres options.

America is broken. And its going to take a Wisconsin act nationally to move us back into caring for the least among us. I can see it happening. I myself am rallying the higher education activists with the health care activist (thats where I come in) in Lousiana. It will be picked up in the media like wild fire. The timing is NOW.And if other states will do that now, following Wisconsin's lead against the conservatives, we can give those that are so beaten down hope. Hope to live and fight the system thats has systematically oppressed those like this man.

Why dont where ever you are, if in the states, find out who is lobbying against the drastic cuts to social programs and get involved. Fight this. Its easy to blame the system, but a whole other game to actually do something about it.

[RGacky3]

Fight this. Its easy to blame the system, but a whole other game to actually do something about it.

Most people on this board are involved.

[Le Libérer]

Most people on this board are involved.

I completely disagree. Sitting in an armchair *****ing about it or attacking those who you think project injustice isnt being involved. Finding your local homeless coalition and reaching out to those in homeless camps is being involved. Working in a homeless shelter volunteering is being involved. I know for a fact most people on this board dont do that.

[RGacky3]

Well I can only speak for myself, and ther are many otheres that I also know for a fact are involved in various social movements.

[Revolution starts with U]

What I was saying is that neither the people at the top OR the bottom take responsibility for their actions. And luck has something to do with people becomming successful--but for the most part successful people make their own luck.
So poor people just need to learn how to have more money to save them from their bad luck, like rich people? Is that why america's so great? Anyone can save themselves in the legal system.. provided they have the money :rolleyes:



The reason that the election was Obama v McCain is EXACTLY because peope don't vote. They don't get involved. They don't participate. This isn't Lybia. If people got involved they'd change thing. But they don't so this is what they get. If they don't care, why should I?

This ^ would not seem to jive with the notion you keep trying to put out that congress is right wing because the people have spoken. THat's what you keep trying to say. Seems you forgot about our 30% voting rates, yes? Seems you conveniently forgot it was not "the people" that spoke but a small subset of the people who actually feel the government responds to them (because they have money).


OK show me the law that says you can't discuss anythiong you want. show me the law you can assemble where you want. You don't have a clue about any of this.

No, you can be fired for trying to unionize. You can be fired for spreading union information at the workplace. It is YOU who doesn't know what you're talking about.
http://www.wslc.org/legis/organizing.htm
May I also refer you to the difference between de facto and de jure law; i.e. as it is written vs as it is practiced


Who exactly here is not allowing you to do things. It sounds like you're in 3rd grade. You can do anything you want.

Another case of Bud having his notions destroyed and reverting to the ad hominem like a petulant child. :lol:




Sorry, but it's a good life here in America if you study hard in school and work hard in life in life. Yea, bad things sometimes happen--but that's life.
It can be. It is not nearly always as you say. Most of the hardest workers in this country are among its poorest. You cannot discount the effect luck and social networks play in sucess/non.
Do you think drugs are a huge problem in poor communities because they are poor? Or do you think poor communities are poor because they have huge drug problems?

[Revolution starts with U]

As I said they can do anyting they want. The Tea Party is doing just that. Let's see if the Socialists can gain some traction--

Where would the Tea Party be without there corporate sponsorship?! For christ's sake Bud...... how many times can we ANSWER THIS ASSERTION by you and you not recognize it?
Do you think the Tea Party would get any traction in this country without copious corporate sponshorship? Fuck!
You are foaming at the mouth here (well you've been foaming all morning)
Where do rape victims come into any of this. We're talking politics and economics. If that's the kid of argument YOU HAVE. Well I guess you don't have much to say either. :D
You are blaming the victim. A rape analogy is pertinent in this circumstance. Blaming the people of a country for tyranny is the same as blaming a rape victim for his/her rape.



Maybe, but they aren't anymore.

I'll agree with you here. Many have become, as you say' "bribe and kick back taking orginizations" every bit as exploitive of labor as ownership.



America is a LARGE country. It's not a little botique coountry like Norway of Sweden. It has different problems.

Such as?


That's not my argument. It is a problem and it needs to be worked on. Constantly and consistantly. But since a Revolution in the US isn't going to happen anytime soon--maybe it's better to work to resolve those issues than just putting on your tinfoil hat and wishing for Socialism to happen here.
.... :cursing:.... /speechless
In the words of Ricky Gervais, you're being a "useless round-headed twat" here.
Yesterday I brought brownies to the strikers at the grocery store two towns over from me. I've been calling my governor daily to reconsider his draconian outlook on politics in my state. Thursday there is going to be a state-wide protest over his anti-worker legislation. I'll be there.
What have you done lately Bud?


I completely disagree. Sitting in an armchair *****ing about it or attacking those who you think project injustice isnt being involved. Finding your local homeless coalition and reaching out to those in homeless camps is being involved. Working in a homeless shelter volunteering is being involved. I know for a fact most people on this board dont do that.

While I agree with what you're saying...
Proof? Don't perpetuate the myth that we're all bratty teenagers compaining more than organizing.

[Le Libérer]

While I agree with what you're saying...
Proof? Don't perpetuate the myth that we're all bratty teenagers compaining more than organizing.

Proof of what? Its not my job to poll this membership. Its rather presumptuous to say everyone on this board is active in the specific social issue addressed in the OP. No where did I say anything about bratty teenagers, on the contrary its the youth who have always been the spring board for social change. So please, dont project some random view on a simple observation.

[RGacky3]

Proof of what? Its not my job to poll this membership. Its rather presumptuous to say everyone on this board is active in the specific social issue addressed in the OP.

Its even more presumptuous to say most people here are nothing more than sofa-socialists.


Do you think drugs are a huge problem in poor communities because they are poor? Or do you think poor communities are poor because they have huge drug problems?

Very important point that is ALWAYS overlooked by right wingers.

[Revolution starts with U]

Proof of what? Its not my job to poll this membership. Its rather presumptuous to say everyone on this board is active in the specific social issue addressed in the OP. No where did I say anything about bratty teenagers, on the contrary its the youth who have always been the spring board for social change. So please, dont project some random view on a simple observation.

Then don't assert you "know for a fact" that "most" people aren't involved. You may suspect it. It may be true. But if you're going to say you "know it for a fact" you better have some evidence to support your claim.
It is even more presumtious of you to say you know for a fact that MOST people here ARE NOT involved. I never said they were. I said you have no way of knowing whether they are or not.

[Le Libérer]

Then don't assert you "know for a fact" that "most" people aren't involved. You may suspect it. It may be true. But if you're going to say you "know it for a fact" you better have some evidence to support your claim.
It is even more presumtious of you to say you know for a fact that MOST people here ARE NOT involved. I never said they were. I said you have no way of knowing whether they are or not.

Semantics. Which leads me to the question, why are there those who feel a need to argue with those they agree with? ;)