Plan for the DPRK?

[Hoplite]

I've spent a while looking at North Korea and the situation there. I've tried to read/watch/listen to almost anything I can get my hands on just out of sheer curiosity. North Korea is one of the most locked off countries in the world and it's hard to get any real information on the place.

After spending time reviewing it, I can only really come to the conclusion that the situation in North Korea is not acceptable on a human rights level. I am not opposed to a totally Socialist country, but it seems that North Korea is using Socialism as a veil to cover the fact that they're pretty much treating their own people like crap.

An example would be Jong-il himself. There are a lot of stories flying around about his personal excesses in the face of a crippling economic climate and food shortage, I dont know how true many of these are but things that we do know for sure, such as a large number of personal palaces and his apparent kidnapping of Shin Sang-ok and his wife to FORCE him to make a movie, dont speak well of his attitude toward his people.

I feel like there is a lot of propaganda flying around in both directions and while the specifics may be difficult to pin down, it is abundantly clear that North Korea's leadership is not working for or even attempting to work for the best interests of the North Korean people.

With this in mind, what should or could be done from the point of view of trying to kick off some kind of popular resistance that would even marginally improve life in North Korea?


As a side note, a really good documentary I found a while back on the subject. Although it's less a documentary and more a guy who actually got into North Korea and shot as much as he could.
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-2-of-3
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-3-of-3

[KC]

In before TVM/Manic's boners

[PhoenixAsh]

You are right on the mark there. I don't know if anything can be done though. Short of toppeling the military and principles of the personality cult....the only other way is to stop the blockades and embargo's. Which would actually relieve economic scarcety. That is not likely to happen though.


Btw....inb4 leberalism accusations

[CynicalIdealist]

^Eh, don't be a liberal. >_>

If Kim Jong-Il's CoP was that powerful, he would allow free elections and win every time.

[Widerstand]

Fucking liberals everywhere ITT trying to force their western decadent lazyass individualist notions of "freedom" and "anti-authoritarianism" on the honest-working, disciplined Northern Korean proletariat.
:laugh:

[pranabjyoti]

How much fucked up DPRK is than a two party autocracy running for more than 200 years and fucking the whole world around?

[the last donut of the night]

The DPRK is no socialist state, but I really don't get why some leftists try to try to make it out from any other repressive capitalist third world state. Sometimes it seems like there's the normal world and the DPRK, the "hermit kingdom", as if it was some kind of evil Mordor-type land.

[Hoplite]

You are right on the mark there. I don't know if anything can be done though. Short of toppeling the military and principles of the personality cult....the only other way is to stop the blockades and embargo's. Which would actually relieve economic scarcety. That is not likely to happen though.
Part of the problem is many people in North Korea really ARE that devoted to Jong-il because they've grown up or spent the majority of their lives knowing nothing but his propaganda.


The DPRK is no socialist state, but I really don't get why some leftists try to try to make it out from any other repressive capitalist third world state. Sometimes it seems like there's the normal world and the DPRK, the "hermit kingdom", as if it was some kind of evil Mordor-type land.
I agree that it is similar to other repressive regimes, but I think it represents probably the worst offender in that arena. The Wal-Mart of nations, so to speak.

[the last donut of the night]

I agree that it is similar to other repressive regimes, but I think it represents probably the worst offender in that arena. The Wal-Mart of nations, so to speak.

What you mean by "worst offender" could generate a discussion by itself, but I take it to mean you think the DPRK is basically the most repressive state on earth. Now I don't think regimes can be measured that way, but I'll take that assumption on. I'd say that the "worst" regime out there is the US government, just because its actions have killed, maimed, and displaced millions of people all across the world. From neoliberal economic policies and numerous wars abroad to a growing police state inside its own borders, the US poses a much larger threat to any kind of human freedom than a pretty cash-strapped capitalist regime in East Asia.

[Hoplite]

What you mean by "worst offender" could generate a discussion by itself, but I take it to mean you think the DPRK is basically the most repressive state on earth. Now I don't think regimes can be measured that way, but I'll take that assumption on. I'd say that the "worst" regime out there is the US government, just because its actions have killed, maimed, and displaced millions of people all across the world. From neoliberal economic policies and numerous wars abroad to a growing police state inside its own borders, the US poses a much larger threat to any kind of human freedom than a pretty cash-strapped capitalist regime in East Asia.
I agree that America is no paragon of morality, but still have, I would argue, a much better position than North Korea.

We have the ability to speak freely without worrying about ending up in a camp. We dont have a state that works with the maxim "From each according our wishes, to each according to whatever we feel like." We are able to have some mobility and access to the outside world, we can freely access almost any kind of information without worrying that it'll land us in jail. We can speak freely about overthrowing the government without ending up infront of a firing squad.

I would argue that North Korea's position is infinitely worse. They have a serious famine but dont seem to be willing to do anything about it. Humanitarian aid organizations have mostly pulled out because their efforts were being siphoned off of where they were needed and absorbed by the government, never to be seen again. There are dozens of camps for political dissidents and the stories of people who have escaped North Korea dont paint a better picture.

[RedScare]

What can we do? Very little about the situation inside North Korea, change must come from the North Korean people themselves, or more likely, reform-minded elements in the upper echelons of the ruling party. The best that people in the First World can do is lobby the United States, South Korea, and other powers to ease up their military presence on the Korean peninsula, reduce tensions, and try to prevent the imperialist powers from provoking North Korea into war.

[pranabjyoti]

I agree that America is no paragon of morality, but still have, I would argue, a much better position than North Korea.

We have the ability to speak freely without worrying about ending up in a camp. We dont have a state that works with the maxim "From each according our wishes, to each according to whatever we feel like." We are able to have some mobility and access to the outside world, we can freely access almost any kind of information without worrying that it'll land us in jail. We can speak freely about overthrowing the government without ending up in front of a firing squad.
REALLY? That's why US have the "Patriot Act" and basically what you are saying can be found in almost all schoolbooks while the reality is much more different. And your understanding about NK stands totally on US/imperialist propaganda. I want to have you ever traveled to NK and try to understand what they actually want and what is real scenario there? I GUESS NO?
How much the jails of NK are worse than Guentanamo and other prisons run by CIA and Pentagon? Have you ever asked yourself?
You better try to sell your liberal craps to some other market.

I would argue that North Korea's position is infinitely worse. They have a serious famine but don't seem to be willing to do anything about it. Humanitarian aid organizations have mostly pulled out because their efforts were being siphoned off of where they were needed and absorbed by the government, never to be seen again. There are dozens of camps for political dissidents and the stories of people who have escaped North Korea don't paint a better picture.
Your whole understanding about NK seems to be standing on information from "official media". My request, please don't engage into debate with information from Fox and other US pets.

[Widerstand]

REALLY? That's why US have the "Patriot Act" and basically what you are saying can be found in almost all schoolbooks while the reality is much more different. And your understanding about NK stands totally on US/imperialist propaganda. I want to have you ever traveled to NK and try to understand what they actually want and what is real scenario there? I GUESS NO?
How much the jails of NK are worse than Guentanamo and other prisons run by CIA and Pentagon? Have you ever asked yourself?
You better try to sell your liberal craps to some other market.

Typical NK-loonie argument one: If the US has it then NK can have it too.



Your whole understanding about NK seems to be standing on information from "official media". My request, please don't engage into debate with information from Fox and other US pets.

Typical NK-loonie argument two: Everything you say against NK is imperialist propaganda.

[pranabjyoti]

Typical NK-loonie argument one: If the US has it then NK can have it too.
Showing basic nature of anarcho-loony, who are even supporting an argument that says USA is a "free country". If both US and NK are not a free country, then why compare?

Typical NK-loonie argument two: Everything you say against NK is imperialist propaganda.
Typical anti-NK loony argument saying everything said about NK must have some basis because "it's a dynastic, totalitarian, bureaucratic REGIME". Worse than any "democratic" country in the world.

[Widerstand]

Showing basic nature of anarcho-loony, who are even supporting an argument that says USA is a "free country".

I never said that. My point is that any capitalist state being or not being a "free country" has no relevance whatsoever for how we should judge states that claim to be socialist.


If both US and NK are not a free country, then why compare?

I don't know, and I didn't start the comparison. You did:


How much fucked up DPRK is than a two party autocracy running for more than 200 years and fucking the whole world around?



Typical anti-NK loony argument saying everything said about NK must have some basis because "it's a dynastic, totalitarian, bureaucratic REGIME". Worse than any "democratic" country in the world.

I never said that either, you just made that up.

[gorillafuck]

I agree that it is similar to other repressive regimes, but I think it represents probably the worst offender in that arena. The Wal-Mart of nations, so to speak.It really isn't. There are many states more oligarchic than the DPRK.

[Volcanicity]

What can we do? Very little about the situation inside North Korea, change must come from the North Korean people themselves, or more likely, reform-minded elements in the upper echelons of the ruling party. The best that people in the First World can do is lobby the United States, South Korea, and other powers to ease up their military presence on the Korean peninsula, reduce tensions, and try to prevent the imperialist powers from provoking North Korea into war.
Liberal nonesense.Lobbying Imperialist countries to ease up on military presence in other countries does'nt work.It never has and it never will.We keep hearing that North Korea needs to change but the only people telling us that are the media in the west and anti-communist's who don't even understand Juche,and who would rather see the end of the DPRK because it does'nt follow their notions of how a country should be run.Support the DPRK!

[Vampire Lobster]

How much fucked up DPRK is than a two party autocracy running for more than 200 years and fucking the whole world around?

This is irrelevant. Just because the most destructive regime around nowadays is worse on some occasions than x is, it by no means does mean x is a good thing. Instead, x really fucking sucks too and you bring "YEAH BUT THE BAD GUYS DID IT TOO" to the argument only because it's the only defence you could make in defence of their authoritarian arses in the first place. It would only make sense if somebody had actually defended the States, though.

[Bright Banana Beard]

It is not because Bad guys did it, it is because bad guys forced them to do it or they will ultimately surrender to the capitalist nations and get plundered to something that even worse than the Korea Civil War.

But fuck them because they shouldn't give us some bad names, amirite? Goddamn Koreans giving us headaches cuz they are bad and capitalists said so!