Zero Tolerance in School from the Left-Wing/Communist/Socialist/Anarchist perspective

[DragonQuestWes]

You know, I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I'm wondering, what is your viewpoint of "Zero Tolerance" policies in schools? Of course, these policies (in theory) are supposed to protect students from violence and drug use and has been greatly enforced since the Columbine High School incident in April 20, 1999.

However, the way I see it, it's not really being enforced the way it's intended to be enforced, because there's a lot of BS suspensions/expulsions such as students getting kicked out just because they pretend to shoot people by doing that little finger-gun trick or by having measly box cutters.

Also, there hasn't been any significant protection from bullying or harassment (I understand the reality that there will always be assholes anywhere and/or that you would not progress in life without even being insulted/picked on at least once). I kinda think of it as only a means of punishing "trouble makers" rather than protecting students.

When I was growing up in High School, I noticed that they had this little memorial slate (or whatever you call it) about honoring a soldier who graduated from my high school and died in Vietnam. While I understand having a memorial for someone who died, I don't understand how schools would advocate or uphold "Zero Tolerance" yet they talk about the US Military in a positive light and claiming that they fought for our freedoms (*snicker* like they ever did). Well, they don't seem to be completely pro-US Military and sometimes have minor criticisms here and there but it's mostly shit repeated from bourgeois mainstream news so these criticisms are just mere words.

So in short, I'm asking what you guys think of these "Zero Tolerance" policies. Enemy of the (future) working class? Something that inspired the Patriot Act? A hindrance of the American economy? Post your thoughts here.

[Ocean Seal]

You know, I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I'm wondering, what is your viewpoint of "Zero Tolerance" policies in schools? Of course, these policies (in theory) are supposed to protect students from violence and drug use and has been greatly enforced since the Columbine High School incident in April 20, 1999.

However, the way I see it, it's not really being enforced the way it's intended to be enforced, because there's a lot of BS suspensions/expulsions such as students getting kicked out just because they pretend to shoot people by doing that little finger-gun trick or by having measly box cutters.

Also, there hasn't been any significant protection from bullying or harassment (I understand the reality that there will always be assholes anywhere and/or that you would not progress in life without even being insulted/picked on at least once). I kinda think of it as only a means of punishing "trouble makers" rather than protecting students.

When I was growing up in High School, I noticed that they had this little memorial slate (or whatever you call it) about honoring a soldier who graduated from my high school and died in Vietnam. While I understand having a memorial for someone who died, I don't understand how schools would advocate or uphold "Zero Tolerance" yet they talk about the US Military in a positive light and claiming that they fought for our freedoms (*snicker* like they ever did). Well, they don't seem to be completely pro-US Military and sometimes have minor criticisms here and there but it's mostly shit repeated from bourgeois mainstream news so these criticisms are just mere words.

So in short, I'm asking what you guys think of these "Zero Tolerance" policies. Enemy of the (future) working class? Something that inspired the Patriot Act? A hindrance of the American economy? Post your thoughts here.
When schools take on these extreme positions it is often to keep the students obeying what are arbitrary rules, and giving the school the right to expel/suspend whichever students that they would like. My school has several ridiculous rules one of which equates bringing in lighters/anything they deem to be a weapon to bringing in guns (which kind of bothers me because I wanted to bring a lighter in to light my comrade's surprise birthday cake). Also there is this very silly idea that even if you accidentally bring in something like a screwdriver you get an automatic suspension. And what's worse, they encourage fellow students to go to a higher authority when they see a friend with something which is most probably going to be used in a harmless manner.

Also this has certain social implications, especially in areas where school violence is fortunately low. What it says is that social outsiders are violent, and unstable, whereas kids who are bullies are ok since although they do make people's lives hell, their not murderers. Which is true, but it also helps ostracize peaceful social outsiders, and many people make fun of them, by stating that they are school shooters.

Additionally, its a case of a strawman. Its necessary to prevent school shootings, but its also an opportunity for the staff to limit the rights of the students. For example, my school kicks students out of the school at 3:30, their excuse was violence/drugs although that stuff doesn't happen too often (in fact I would say that its marginal). This is a clever way for them to cut extracurriculars from the budget, and keep the parents/students from protesting. It also stops social activity that the students might have such as when students would get together after school and play card games.

In a sense, what I believe is that they took something very scary, and used it to enforce some ridiculous rules.

[Savage]

I think it's fair to say that the western school system in general is incredibly conservative (for obvious reasons) and that in any sort of communist/anarchist society, education would take a form greatly different that what it is at present. By the way, a friend of mine was expelled from my school last year for having pot in his bag. He now smokes more than ever.

[Hoplite]

I dont think there is necessarily a Communist or Socialist perspective on the idea of zero tolerance.

For me personally, I saw the results of it firsthand. My school district had a zero tolerance policy on fighting (though not on drugs, odd) and an adjacent district did not have the same policy. Our district (and I actually did see numbers on this when I was younger) had numerically fewer fights than the neighboring district, except the fights we had tended to be far more severe and far more brutal.

The fights I saw and heard of were almost animalistic; kids slamming each other's heads into the ground, kicking each other in the teeth, stomping on someone's back. It wasn't pretty. I didnt really understand it until I started getting in fights. The rule was if you were involved in a fight in any way, automatic suspension as if you had started the fight. So if someone threw a punch at me, my thought was "Well...fuck I'm gonna get suspended anyways, I might as well get my money's worth" and I started throwing them back.

I think a zero tolerance policy for schools is effective only from a statistics point of view and THAT is what most schools are after. They want to be able to say "Well the number of fights went DOWN!" and dismiss the fights that do happen as just troublemakers.

[Amphictyonis]

I dont think there is necessarily a Communist or Socialist perspective on the idea of zero tolerance.

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http://www.ajol.info/index.php/saje/article/viewFile/25063/20733

[Hoplite]

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/saje/article/viewFile/25063/20733
Interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

[B0LSHEVIK]

In the words of a legendary great; 'it's all bullshit folks and its bad for ya.'

ON EDIT:

Ok, to give a little more background.

All such 'laws' can all be used to combat working class efforts. Much like the 14th amendment (which guaranteed recently freed slaves civil liberties, the first time, :rolleyes:) But, is now chiefly applied and used to protect corporations as so-called 'individuals.'

Thats why I quoted Mr Carlin (RIP). Im just feeling cynical today. I think Im envious of the Egyptians :glare: .

[psgchisolm]

You know, I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I'm wondering, what is your viewpoint of "Zero Tolerance" policies in schools? Of course, these policies (in theory) are supposed to protect students from violence and drug use and has been greatly enforced since the Columbine High School incident in April 20, 1999.

However, the way I see it, it's not really being enforced the way it's intended to be enforced, because there's a lot of BS suspensions/expulsions such as students getting kicked out just because they pretend to shoot people by doing that little finger-gun trick or by having measly box cutters.

Also, there hasn't been any significant protection from bullying or harassment (I understand the reality that there will always be assholes anywhere and/or that you would not progress in life without even being insulted/picked on at least once). I kinda think of it as only a means of punishing "trouble makers" rather than protecting students.

When I was growing up in High School, I noticed that they had this little memorial slate (or whatever you call it) about honoring a soldier who graduated from my high school and died in Vietnam. While I understand having a memorial for someone who died, I don't understand how schools would advocate or uphold "Zero Tolerance" yet they talk about the US Military in a positive light and claiming that they fought for our freedoms (*snicker* like they ever did). Well, they don't seem to be completely pro-US Military and sometimes have minor criticisms here and there but it's mostly shit repeated from bourgeois mainstream news so these criticisms are just mere words.

So in short, I'm asking what you guys think of these "Zero Tolerance" policies. Enemy of the (future) working class? Something that inspired the Patriot Act? A hindrance of the American economy? Post your thoughts here.
I believe that the some of the school systems are handling some issues wrong. I can see rules on box cutters ect ect. There's no reason for you to carry around box cutters unless you need them for class or other superficial reasons. Even then you can always ask for permission to bring them and for the Principles or teachers to hold them as long as you have them for a legimate reason. I get the policy on drugs. Whether you are pro-drug or not you have to reason that drugs affect people differently. They affect developing children more than full grown adults. So with that said, if a child is high in school what can they learn? They usually want to eat and sleep, which most of them do anyway so drugs are not beneficial in anyway for a student learning. The problem with bullying is that you can't tell the difference between joking and real trouble. Most times the victims are coerced into saying that everything is ok, if not it's attributed to a society where you don't snitch and you handle problems by yourself. " Manning up" The only way to stop this is to encourage kids to stand up for each other. Of course kids will naturally not like some people, but if it gets to the point where it's a disruption i think more preventative punishment needs to be in place.
I can get where the school gets the memorial from. There were a lot of soldiers that died in Vietnam. A lot of them being having some impact on the school. It's a way of remembering the past and that you can lose anyone, whether it be student, son, revolutionary. The soldiers that serve are in to protect our freedoms. They just get caught up in the bureaucrats wars.

[Rafiq]

I think they are too harsh on dress codes. And Public display of affection.

[psgchisolm]

I think they are too harsh on dress codes. And Public display of affection.
It's hard to say. I see both sides of the picture. Obviously you should have your pants ABOVE your ass. Not gonna lie a lot of black people that dress the part of gangsters are either gangsters or just posing and repping it for friends. As long as clothing isn't obviously blatant gang/illegal activities it's ok. Bandanna's are iffy. Especially as an African-American, I see this happening A LOT. PDA, imo as long as it's not overdoing it. A kiss on the cheek is ok, a peck on the lips for a good bye meh. Full out going at it. Just no. Hugs shouldn't even been considered serious. As long as it's not disruptive or over the top is my stand.

[HalPhilipWalker]

Zero-tolerance policies have two purposes: to provide for a safe environment for students to learn, and to teach students what is acceptable in the workplace environment. These two purposes aren't necessarily bad. The former is necessary for the efficiency of the school; the latter is the source for many of the school's activities. But zero-tolerance rules are often overly-broad and intrusive onto the students' lives. Getting them to follow them would be difficult if the students aren't organized. And this is where Marxists should take note.

In forcing students to accept intrusive and punitive rules, the schools are teaching the students their proper role in the exploitation of the jobs they will encounter later in life. The enforcement of such rules would be impossible if the students offered an organized resistance to them in the form of a strike, walk-out, or civil disobedience. By having students follow rules, no matter how ridiculous, without such organized resistance, schools are preparing their pupils for exploitation without union resistance in the modern workplace.

Indeed, employers have been getting just as broad and intrusive in the course of their exploitation as well in the form of drug-testing and credit-score checking. The proper Marxist view is that zero-tolerance policies are intolerable. Students should organize and enforce solidarity among the student body to resist such measures. Force the school to suspend or expel such large numbers of students that the school is forced to shutter operations. This should continue until the school is forced to recognize the student body's demands for more lenient and less authoritative rules. This will teach the students valuable skills in the class war which is being waged in the world, such as leadership, self-discipline (proper discipline, not blind submission to authority), and social organization.

Find a way to advertise your intentions to the rest of the student body and form a central committee. Organized resistance is most likely going to be a alien concept to them, and education of the masses to your program will be key. Try to stay off the school's radar as long as possible. But remember: there's no such thing as being too active when it comes to organizing a resistance.

Hope this helps.

[Zav]

If a person wants to kill hir schoolmates, then ze will do so, regardless of whether having a weapon in school is allowed. If students were allowed even a penknife, school violence would decrease. Kids would be less likely to try anything rash if they knew they could be jumped by thirty other kids, yes?
Assault rifle vs. unarmed students: All the students are shot.
Assault rifle vs. a kid's grandfather's revolver: A few students are shot, but the students have a chance against the attacker.

[Amphictyonis]

Interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

Sorry. Micheal Foucault critiqued the nature of institutional punishment and control his whole career (from somewhat of a 'human liberation' perspective). Everything from prisons to schools. Check out some of his work or some introductory works explaining his work if you're looking for a radical critique of social institutions.

[Hoplite]

Sorry. Micheal Foucault critiqued the nature of institutional punishment and control his whole career (from somewhat of a 'human liberation' perspective). Everything from prisons to schools. Check out some of his work or some introductory works explaining his work if you're looking for a radical critique of social institutions.
I guess I'm not seeing how thats an inherently Communist or Socialist idea.

Foucault himself was a member of the PCF for a couple of years but IIRC, he was never really that engaged.

[Rafiq]

It's hard to say. I see both sides of the picture. Obviously you should have your pants ABOVE your ass. Not gonna lie a lot of black people that dress the part of gangsters are either gangsters or just posing and repping it for friends. As long as clothing isn't obviously blatant gang/illegal activities it's ok. Bandanna's are iffy. Especially as an African-American, I see this happening A LOT. PDA, imo as long as it's not overdoing it. A kiss on the cheek is ok, a peck on the lips for a good bye meh. Full out going at it. Just no. Hugs shouldn't even been considered serious. As long as it's not disruptive or over the top is my stand.

Actually people should be able to wear whatever they want.

And waaaa? People should be able to go full out in high school.

[RedSquare]

Obviously there is good reason for banning of knives, drugs and other weapons. In my view, they naturally, have no place in any school or place that is intended for education. Not that I'm completely anti-drug, or anti anything, but there's a time and a place for these things and I don't think an educational setting is it.

The downside to having these regulations is that they are far too broad, and there isn't enough mediation in a lot of schools. From most stories about these policies in the US, it seems that teachers and administrators overreact. It depends on the context too, for instance, if that gun gesture was a joke by an otherwise good student, then its ridiculous. But if that student has a record of violent or threatening behaviour, then there's some grounds for it.

They should take a schematic approach, as its used in legal interpretation, where the literal outcome would be absurd and not really what the purpose of the law/regulation/rule was intended for, eg: a A+ student making a gun gesture or something along those lines.

As for limiting contact between male and female, it depends on the people. If a couple are mature and capable of making informed choices based on accurate information, then I wouldn't have any problems. If they make bad decisions without information, its not a good place to be in the current system.

Organise against it if you can, if not, tolerate it and concentrate on education. You'll be glad of education later, its not just for becoming a wage slave.

[DragonQuestWes]

Actually people should be able to wear whatever they want.

And waaaa? People should be able to go full out in high school.

I'm not really sure about full out because it's not always necessary to have anything revealing but I do agree they should be able to wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't significantly try to bother anyone.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Zero tolerance policies are the product of a focus on security above student welfare. Happy kids don't shoot each other up or shoot up themselves. If a child is found to have a drug problem then that should be attended to as a medical issue, and resources would be better spent on social support networks rather than metal detectors.