Gaddafi to join Libyan protests ?

[scarletghoul]

couldnt find an english news source but http://maghreb.me/showthread.php?p=177236
google translation -

Activists decided to Libyan announcement on February 17 on public outrage, that the walk a big demonstration demanding the government to drop, and the surprise is that the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi decided to solidarity with the people, and go down to the demonstration and participate in the government to demand the dropping


:d : D
News in the absence of surprise to him as it was issued for Colonel Muammar Gaddafi ..
. Reported a handful of media outlets issued from Tripoli that "the Libyan leader" has decided to support popular protests called by the country's youth through the social networking site "Facebook," and thus will be high on the first row of protesters on the performance of the government.

". This has raised the news surprise in the ranks of Ansar al-Gaddafi before scorned those who call to protest on the 17 of February, they did not understand how could the governor has the power to overthrow the government, but to step down from power completely, to engage in the ranks of the people and the outspoken demands can be met by a Seated in the "tent government."

. Libya calls for "revolution selected" against Colonel Muammar Gadaffi blood they have chosen the slogan "No Scott, after today," to mobilize support for their initiative in calling for the overthrow "the Green Book" aging in power for more than 41 years ..


However, this circumvention of Libya's ruler, the claimant "Alvaespokip" make members of the group high population of 2850 people questioned in turn: "bash Muammar guide Muammar?" ..


Is he going to pull a Mao ? Will the people buy it ?

[Dimentio]

HwawoAH9h2Y

[khad]

I gotta say, that forum is pretty odious, full of self congratulating American-wannabe trash.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well....if he does its a politically strategic brilliant move along the lines of: "can't beat them...join them"

However...in the light of recent comments by Gaddafi its far more likely he wants to shift the focus of the protests where he wants then: in Palestine against the Israeli's

Joining the protests would give the protests legitimacy, but at the same time will incorporate them in his own political machinations.

[danyboy27]

typical kadafi answer to a crisis.

he always does unexpected things like that.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think he's committed to proving that Nixon was right, he really is the "Mad Dog" of Libya.

If he does this, it would contrast greatly with his self-serving and pathetic support for Ben Ali right after the Tunisian revolution.

Of course, if the people don't buy it, he's gunna get himself hung from a streetlight by an angry mob. I'm sure he's hoping this is the peaceful kind of protest :P

[Toppler]

Gaddafi is more than a bit crazy, but still, considering how Libya is doing compared to Egypt, let alone the rest of Africa, I wouldn't put him in the same league as the emperor Nero or a totally corrupt tinpot dictator like Saddam or Mubarak.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

To be fair, Libya has more oil per capita than other African states, and most countries in North Africa are more developed than sub saharan countries in general.

Gaddhafi is just an example of trickle down dictatorship

[scarletghoul]

True, the oil wealth combined with the small population mean Libya can easily give its people a good quality of life. But still, one must admit that Gaddafi's style of government has contributed to this.

I have never been sure about the Libyan state. These events are fascinating and their outcome will clear a lot of things up.. Either Libya is just another corrupt Arab dictatorship and will be toppled like the others, or Gaddafi could end up being the survivor among the arab leaders.

[L.A.P.]

My only opinion on Gaddafi is that he's a character and I don't fully support these protests in Libya as much as I would fully back them in Egypt and Tunisia. He may be a bit out there but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Mumbarak and Ben Ali.

[Toppler]

My only opinion on Gaddafi is that he's a character and I don't fully support these protests in Libya as much as I would fully back them in Egypt and Tunisia. He may be a bit out there but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Mumbarak and Ben Ali.

Quoted for truth.

And if Libya is just a "trickle down dictatorship", then why many oil rich countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Azebaijan are shitholes? And it is true that North Africa is much better off than the rest of Africa, but Libya is the most well of country even in North Africa. And it is definitely better off than Egypt or Tunisia.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's pretty sad when it comes down to choosing your favorite leader of a capitalist state.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Quoted for truth.

And if Libya is just a "trickle down dictatorship", then why many oil rich countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Azebaijan are shitholes? And it is true that North Africa is much better off than the rest of Africa, but Libya is the most well of country even in North Africa. And it is definitely better off than Egypt or Tunisia.

Saudi Arabia has a GDP per capita around 3x that of Libya. I've seen no evidence that Libya offers higher living standards for a Proletarian than Saudi Arabia.

Iraq and Azerbaijan are "shitholes" as you so eloquently put it because Iraq has fought three wars and been occupied and embargoed for much of the past 30 years, and Azerbaijan because it is an ex-soviet autocracy.

Why is it the nicest country in North Africa? It has higher oil per capita. Tunisia has practically no oil, and Egypt has very little. Libya has a ton of oil, but a tiny population.

[Toppler]

3x? By PPP measures more like 1.5x. And you are such a socialist if you measure GDP PPP as something reflecting the actual living standard. Most of the wealth in Saudi Arabia is owned by the elite. Also, it is an atrocious theocracy where woman have no citizen rights. This stuff is also reflected in its HDI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Middl e_East_and_North_Africa

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

3x? By PPP measures more like 1.5x. And you are such a socialist if you measure GDP PPP as something reflecting the actual living standard. Most of the wealth in Saudi Arabia is owned by the elite. Also, it is an atrocious theocracy where woman have no citizen rights. This stuff is also reflected in its HDI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Middl e_East_and_North_Africa

You are correct, it is only 1.5 by purchasing power (which you are right to say is the better way of measuring). However, that doesn't really change it, Saudi Arabia is also famous for buying its people out with money trickling down from oil sales.

Any way, he's still a trickle-down dictator, he lets his people get some of the wealth, just enough to keep himself in power and the people feeling less resentful. There's a minimal socialization of economic benefits, without a real socialization of economic property, while the Libyan elite can still life large.

As for religious law, that is true but wasn't pertinent to the discussion. I don't know if a more democratic Saudi Arabia would have better rights for women, its a very conservative country.

[L.A.P.]

Saudi Arabia has a GDP per capita around 3x that of Libya.

Saudi Arabia may have a higher GDP but GDP is not why I say Libya is better off than every other North African *scratch that* African country, it's because Libya has the highest Human Development Index in Africa.


It's pretty sad when it comes down to choosing your favorite leader of a capitalist state.

I wouldn't really say Libya has a capitalist economy or is a capitalist state, it's just a more bastardized state socialism mixed with Arab socialism which is far from perfect. There is a lot to criticize about Gaddafi and the Libyan government but I just don't really feel comfortable seeing him overthrown as a good thing.

[gorillafuck]

I gotta say, that forum is pretty odious, full of self congratulating American-wannabe trash.Why is that relevant to Gaddafi joining protests?:confused:

Saudi Arabia has a GDP per capita around 3x that of Libya. I've seen no evidence that Libya offers higher living standards for a Proletarian than Saudi Arabia.GDP is not an accurate representation of living standards.

[Toppler]

I've seen no evidence that Libya offers higher living standards for a Proletarian than Saudi Arabia..

Are woman not proletarian?Or are you extremely sexist? Because even through Libya is a semi-socialist/socialist-but-very-imperfect dictatorship, at least it doesn't treat woman like utter trash as the Saudis do.
And yes, SA is a really conservative country. The fact is, it is because the monarchy would kill anybody who wanted to allow anything different than medieval societal standards.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

1. I read Introduction To The Apocalypse (http://zinelibrary.info/introduction-apocalypse-0) and now I think the Tuarag are an important reference point for my daily practice of insurrection.

2. BECAUSE OF THE RIGOROUS PRACTICE OF THIRD INTERNATIONAL THEORY, THE GREAT SOCIALIST PEOPLE'S LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA IS THE LAST SOCIALIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

[Luís Henrique]

Lybia socialist?

Let's see.

No signs of social property of the means of production. No signs of proletarian political power.

Looks like a capitalist State leading over a capitalist economy to me. With a conservative capital-friendly dictatorship on top of it all.

Luís Henrique

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Are woman not proletarian?Or are you extremely sexist? Because even through Libya is a semi-socialist/socialist-but-very-imperfect dictatorship, at least it doesn't treat woman like utter trash as the Saudis do.
And yes, SA is a really conservative country. The fact is, it is because the monarchy would kill anybody who wanted to allow anything different than medieval societal standards.

Women can be proletarian, and women can be repressed as working-class, but the sexism in Saudi Arabia is not one of wage exploitation. It's one of cultural misogyny. And I don't know if it was Gaddhafi alone which made Libya more sexually progressive after forty some years of rule, or the fact that Saudi Arabia has been dominated for centuries by conservative theologies. In Libya on the other hand, women are subjected to the wage system, and so are exploited as working class even if they are given other rights in exchange.

Anyway, i wouldn't really say Libya is that socialist, it seems to have become quite capitalist based on its dealings with its old colonizer Italy.

[punisa]

I wouldn't like to see Gaddafi go. He is in no way even comparable to Ben Ali or Mubarak.
People are in a bit of frenzy... they want him gone just because he has been in power for that long - and they demand "change".
I don't support this. I think the pro-Gaddafi supporters will outnumber the pro-"democracy" ones in this case.

It would be a similar situation if this happened in Cuba. Sure, a couple of thousands could rally against Castro, but the overwhelming majority of the population would stand beside him.

[danyboy27]

I wouldn't like to see Gaddafi go. He is in no way even comparable to Ben Ali or Mubarak.
People are in a bit of frenzy... they want him gone just because he has been in power for that long - and they demand "change".
I don't support this. I think the pro-Gaddafi supporters will outnumber the pro-"democracy" ones in this case.

It would be a similar situation if this happened in Cuba. Sure, a couple of thousands could rally against Castro, but the overwhelming majority of the population would stand beside him.

'this guy is a son of a *****, but he is our son of a *****''

i dont like this thinking. if cadafi was really a hero, he would have gave up power long time ago.

[Toppler]

'this guy is a son of a *****, but he is our son of a *****''

i dont like this thinking. if cadafi was really a hero, he would have gave up power long time ago.

He is less of a son of a ***** than the other local sons of *****es.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wouldn't like to see Gaddafi go. He is in no way even comparable to Ben Ali or Mubarak.
People are in a bit of frenzy... they want him gone just because he has been in power for that long - and they demand "change".
I don't support this. I think the pro-Gaddafi supporters will outnumber the pro-"democracy" ones in this case.

It would be a similar situation if this happened in Cuba. Sure, a couple of thousands could rally against Castro, but the overwhelming majority of the population would stand beside him.

Yeah, it's not like the Libyan government has had a close working relationship with the US government for the last 7-8 years or anything like that.

[danyboy27]

He is less of a son of a ***** than the other local sons of *****es.


yea nevermind what the people think, really. i am 100% for supporting progressive dictator who been in power for so much time, and i also support the intimidation and attack on political dissents has well.

Saddam was a great guy has well.

[Blackscare]

yea nevermind what the people think, really. i am 100% for supporting progressive dictator who been in power for so much time, and i also support the intimidation and attack on political dissents has well.

Saddam was a great guy has well.

But you do have to wonder what sort of clique is going to replace him.


I don't support any of these tinpot dictators, but these protests are just going to end in a changing of hands from old oppressors to new ones, unless some sort of socialist movement takes hold.

[scarletghoul]

I'm not too concerned about Gaddafi as an individual, i just hope that if he goes they don't get rid of the collectivised economy and council-based political system in favour of a 'western' style system.

Anyway it seems he hasnt joined the protests. but there are huge pro-gaddafi protests, much bigger than in other countries, and while the anti-gaddafi protests are huge in the other cities they dont seem to be very big in tripoli. unless something big happens in the capital it looks like he will survive

[Os Cangaceiros]

The regime has exercised significant coercive measures on the anti forces, including some 20+ killed and threatening to fail students unless they participate in pro-regime demonstrations.

[Toppler]

yea nevermind what the people think, really. i am 100% for supporting progressive dictator who been in power for so much time, and i also support the intimidation and attack on political dissents has well.

Saddam was a great guy has well.

Saddam was a genocidal sadist. I don't support Gaddafi shooting protesters, I just hope they know what they are doing and actually replace the goverment with something better.

[danyboy27]

Saddam was a genocidal sadist. I don't support Gaddafi shooting protesters, I just hope they know what they are doing and actually replace the goverment with something better.

Well, its gonna depend on the decisions taken by kadafi and his buddies.

they could either goes in flame and cause a tremendous shock to his country and potentially leave room for another dictatorship, or he could step down and allow political reform that would create the first REAL direct democracy governement with a good social structure.

lets hope he goes for the latter, beccause with the current political structure in place, unlike egypt, a dictator would have no problem getting in power beccause of the lack of different political parties.

[Toppler]

You mean latter right?

[Nolan]

I hope he gets out there so they can string him up.

[danyboy27]

I hope he gets out there so they can string him up.

well, kadafi being who he is, i wouldnt be surprised of him being killed beccause of some nut idea.

[Dimentio]

You are hypocrites, and you are not aware of it.

If Ghadaffi had been ruling a country on the northern shore of the Mediterranean, you would have called him a Fascist/Third Positionist. His ideology is pretty close to Mussolini's.

http://www.mathaba.net/gci/theory/gb.htm

[danyboy27]

just been reading some stuff about the military structure of Libya over globalsecurity.org (i know i know..)

-every adult male must receive military training and serve in the reserve (people milita)

-the governement have a unit called the revolutionary guard, they are embedded into the regular army, those are basicly political officiers, they are also the one guarding and distributing ammo to the soldiers, avoiding them to have ammo surplus. they are also responsable for kadafi security details

-security bataillons, well trained and well armed troops are responsable for the security of the regime in major cities.

[punisa]

'this guy is a son of a *****, but he is our son of a *****''

i dont like this thinking. if cadafi was really a hero, he would have gave up power long time ago.

I don't claim he is our SOB, don't know whose one is he.
The truth is I don't know much about Libya, but I know some...

In his speech, televised, Gaddafi suggested Tunisians to take the so-called "Libyan model of popular democracy, in which, according to him, the power belongs to the people."

Power belongs to the people?
I doubt things are that pink down in Lybia, BUT I've read some years ago that the model of goverment in Lybia ain't that bad... people have a lot of decision-making choices regarding their cities, neighborhoods etc. They hold regular meetings and discuss what needs to be done.
Once again - I can't prove it - never been to Lybia !
But if in fact common working people meet regularly and discus what need to be done in their community, this is a good thing. And these meetings are sponsored by the state.

Furthermore, Libyan literacy rate is 87%, compared to Egyptian 66%. This is also an interesting clue.

Okey okey... I'm starting to sound pro-dictatorship, so I'll stop that :)

What I REALLY wanted to say was this: IF these popular uprisings had a clear idea on what kind of state/government/power they wanted to create and if these were even remotely socialist in nature, I would say that Gaddafi should get the f*** out now !

But I'm becoming seriously disillusioned lately... my fear is that (some) of these young revolutionaries yern for some crappy EURO style social democracy where "everyone" has an iPod and similar crap and believe they could achieve that if they put some of those people in charge instead of the colonel.
This is just a hypothetical assumption, nothing more. But if this is indeed the case, I'm pro Gadaffi until something better arises.

[danyboy27]

I don't claim he is our SOB, don't know whose one is he.
The truth is I don't know much about Libya, but I know some...

In his speech, televised, Gaddafi suggested Tunisians to take the so-called "Libyan model of popular democracy, in which, according to him, the power belongs to the people."

Power belongs to the people?
I doubt things are that pink down in Lybia, BUT I've read some years ago that the model of goverment in Lybia ain't that bad... people have a lot of decision-making choices regarding their cities, neighborhoods etc. They hold regular meetings and discuss what needs to be done.
Once again - I can't prove it - never been to Lybia !
But if in fact common working people meet regularly and discus what need to be done in their community, this is a good thing. And these meetings are sponsored by the state.

Furthermore, Libyan literacy rate is 87%, compared to Egyptian 66%. This is also an interesting clue.

Okey okey... I'm starting to sound pro-dictatorship, so I'll stop that :)

What I REALLY wanted to say was this: IF these popular uprisings had a clear idea on what kind of state/government/power they wanted to create and if these were even remotely socialist in nature, I would say that Gaddafi should get the f*** out now !

But I'm becoming seriously disillusioned lately... my fear is that (some) of these young revolutionaries yern for some crappy EURO style social democracy where "everyone" has an iPod and similar crap and believe they could achieve that if they put some of those people in charge instead of the colonel.
This is just a hypothetical assumption, nothing more. But if this is indeed the case, I'm pro Gadaffi until something better arises.

The fact that he have revolutionary guard within the army doing political indoctrination and keeping the ammunition away from the troop along with the other the fact that he have under his personnal command several security bataillons armed to the teeth around the country to preserve the regime make his speech a little suspicious, dont you think.

there might be things in this regime that is worth saving, but he have to go, make room for more freedom of expression.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

From Lenin's blog:


I was just writing a lengthy post about the uprisings in the Bahrain archipelago, going into the history of Anglo-American imperialism and the oil frontier, with some comments on the relationship to the Saudi kleptocracy. The regime has been struggling to keep it together for some time, and has been facing protests and working class rebellions at least since the invasion of Iraq, which gave birth to a germinal new left in the region and is itself a tributary to the current revolutionary wave. This latest convulsion may well finish off the Sunni monarchy. But it seems that Libya is the surer bet for an overthrow in very near future. All of the ingredients are there. The state is cracking down with extreme brutality. In Benghazi, mercenaries shipped in by Gaddafi are carrying out random killings, with dozens reportedly dead so far. The regime is intent on terrorising the population into submission and has even, predictably, shut down the internet. The electricity has been shut off in insurgent areas. Yet it says a lot that Gaddafi is so lacking in authority over his own state structure that he's having to hire mercenaries to come in and put down the revolt. This is happening in part because, so I understand, sections of the army and police have gone over to the protests. This is in contrast to Bahrain, where the regime instructed the army to shoot at peaceful protesters and paramedics, and the soldiers obeyed. The protesters have successfully taken over airports and shut down cities. Eastern parts of the country appear to be effectively liberated from the state's control. Benina airport has apparently had its runways sabotaged to stop the landing of mercenaries from overseas, and "clashes" between protesters and the authorities are reportedly taking place there at this very moment. Al Jazeera reports that in Benghazi, army tanks have been taken over by protesters. If a fraction of what is being reported, tweeted and youtubed is accurate, then it seems implausible that the regime will hang on. It would seem that the US and UK made their peace with the dictatorship in its dying hours.

Bold added.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/02/libyas-uprising.html

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Front page of the Uber-Kapitalist weekly, the Economist:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Economist revolution.jpg

Wrong fist, but what the hell...

[gorillafuck]

I wouldn't like to see Gaddafi go. He is in no way even comparable to Ben Ali or Mubarak.
People are in a bit of frenzy... they want him gone just because he has been in power for that long - and they demand "change".
I don't support this. I think the pro-Gaddafi supporters will outnumber the pro-"democracy" ones in this case.

It would be a similar situation if this happened in Cuba. Sure, a couple of thousands could rally against Castro, but the overwhelming majority of the population would stand beside him.If you don't support communists taking an active influential role in times of dissent (since class struggle usually comes in times of dissent) then how do you expect to get anything accomplished? If communists don't take an active role in influencing the class struggle that happens during times like this then well, what do they wanna do?


I'm not too concerned about Gaddafi as an individual, i just hope that if he goes they don't get rid of the collectivised economy and council-based political system in favour of a 'western' style system.Libya doesn't have a council based political system system (unless you consider the frequent American town hall meetings to be a council based system), and it works with the United States, it's former colonizer Italy, and international trade organizations on economic issues.

[punisa]

If you don't support communists taking an active influential role in times of dissent (since class struggle usually comes in times of dissent) then how do you expect to get anything accomplished? If communists don't take an active role in influencing the class struggle that happens during times like this then well, what do they wanna do?

Don't get mad because of my comments guys, I'm cautious for a reason. I saw regimes being overthrown by the people (all over Yugoslavia) and what came next was far worse.
I do hope that this will not be the case in Libya or any other Arab countries.

[The Red Next Door]

I think he's committed to proving that Nixon was right, he really is the "Mad Dog" of Libya.

If he does this, it would contrast greatly with his self-serving and pathetic support for Ben Ali right after the Tunisian revolution.

Of course, if the people don't buy it, he's gunna get himself hung from a streetlight by an angry mob. I'm sure he's hoping this is the peaceful kind of protest :P

I hope that was not a reference towards Dr. Nujullah.

[danyboy27]

Don't get mad because of my comments guys, I'm cautious for a reason. I saw regimes being overthrown by the people (all over Yugoslavia) and what came next was far worse.
I do hope that this will not be the case in Libya or any other Arab countries.

We all hope its not gonna finish with more dictatorship.

But believe me, Mass communication are right now doing a wonderful job at twarting the plan of those dictators.

The climate today isnt the same than the climate in the 60 and 70s was.

Arab countries are filled with young, educated peoples.
Sooner or later, the elites will realize that there is nothing to do now but to compromise and let democracy thrive.

Democracy itself wont remove the elites but will surely force them to give away some of their power for more stability.

Has i said before, the goal here isnt full blown socialism, its making room for socialist and communist organisation to thrive.

Beccause right now, if you have a socialist party in saudi arabia, chances are some cop are gonna fucking burn it to the ground and kill your friends.

[PhoenixAsh]

Lybian forces openen fire at a funeral procession for those who died in the last three days in Benghazi.

15 more people have died...though that number may be higher in the comming days.

:crying:

[Os Cangaceiros]

I really hope that this uprising doesn't get drowned in blood, but if reports are to believed, that appears to be what's happening.

[Jose Gracchus]

Why the fuck is there no coverage of this Libyan insurrection? Is the establishment less divided on keeping Gaddafi than Mubarak? A harder line as the insurrectionary mood in the Arab and Middle Eastern states intensify?

[danyboy27]

Why the fuck is there no coverage of this Libyan insurrection? Is the establishment less divided on keeping Gaddafi than Mubarak? A harder line as the insurrectionary mood in the Arab and Middle Eastern states intensify?

journalist have no contact with this country, only unconfirmed report.

a team of egyptian journalist is apparently on the way...

Seriously, they do have big balls in egypts.

[Toppler]

I don't claim he is our SOB, don't know whose one is he.
The truth is I don't know much about Libya, but I know some...

In his speech, televised, Gaddafi suggested Tunisians to take the so-called "Libyan model of popular democracy, in which, according to him, the power belongs to the people."

Power belongs to the people?
I doubt things are that pink down in Lybia, BUT I've read some years ago that the model of goverment in Lybia ain't that bad... people have a lot of decision-making choices regarding their cities, neighborhoods etc. They hold regular meetings and discuss what needs to be done.
Once again - I can't prove it - never been to Lybia !
But if in fact common working people meet regularly and discus what need to be done in their community, this is a good thing. And these meetings are sponsored by the state.

Furthermore, Libyan literacy rate is 87%, compared to Egyptian 66%. This is also an interesting clue.

Okey okey... I'm starting to sound pro-dictatorship, so I'll stop that :)

What I REALLY wanted to say was this: IF these popular uprisings had a clear idea on what kind of state/government/power they wanted to create and if these were even remotely socialist in nature, I would say that Gaddafi should get the f*** out now !

But I'm becoming seriously disillusioned lately... my fear is that (some) of these young revolutionaries yern for some crappy EURO style social democracy where "everyone" has an iPod and similar crap and believe they could achieve that if they put some of those people in charge instead of the colonel.
This is just a hypothetical assumption, nothing more. But if this is indeed the case, I'm pro Gadaffi until something better arises.

Also, it has the highest Human development index in Africa, per capita GDP like Slovakia in the late 1990s, no female circumcision, gini index 36 which is lower than the USA and approx. on the same level as the UK ... need I go on? The people in 1991 USSR also held protests, yet you see how shit the former USSR is now (very much worse than the ex-Eastern Bloc). And yes, I fear that the uprising is more motivated by "we want ipods and shiny cars" rather than true hardship, just like the 1989 was here, and then people discovered that the Mercedeses will belong only to an elite minority and the rest will be glad if they somehow manage to buy pure bread and non-soy sausages...

Capitalist "democracy" has a siren song - consumerism. It is true that in capitalist countries with GDP PPP per capita above 10000 a significant number of people lives affluently, but still, I know of one person who lives in Prague and despite it being a capital of a relatively prosperous country and him being employed as a designer of web pages, he is not able to afford 3 meals a day and lives on 2, his BMI showing significant undernutrition (granted, his family situation has a lot to do with this ... but it comes to capitalism in the end anyways). In the CSSR such situations were unthinkable.

[Toppler]

If you don't support communists taking an active influential role in times of dissent (since class struggle usually comes in times of dissent) then how do you expect to get anything accomplished? If communists don't take an active role in influencing the class struggle that happens during times like this then well, what do they wanna do?

Libya doesn't have a council based political system system (unless you consider the frequent American town hall meetings to be a council based system), and it works with the United States, it's former colonizer Italy, and international trade organizations on economic issues.

Should it economically isolate itself and bring their citizens to poverty just because of some stupid principle of "not dealing economically with evil colonizers""?

And he was not talking about communists, but about the trash that thinks neoliberal capitalism = American dream, everybody living like the upper class in Beverley Hills etc., just like the "student protestors" in the color coded revolutions in the post-Soviet countries that brought bloodthirsty despots (Shakashvili in Georgia) or pro-Western puppets (Yuschenko in Ukraine) to power.

Of course I support communists doing a people's revolution in Libya, if they are not Stalinists (I mean actual Stalinists, not the post-Stalin soft authoritarian communists)/Maoists who would bring a worse police state to Libya that Kaddafi ever dreamt of.

[Toppler]

We all hope its not gonna finish with more dictatorship.

But believe me, Mass communication are right now doing a wonderful job at twarting the plan of those dictators.

Well, today's ex-Yugoslavia is not ruled by dictators, but it still sucks in many ways economically (Croatia is still a beautiful country through).

The problem is not just the possibility of new dictatorships, but of Libya becoming just another economically oppressed cookie cutter Western satellite.

Also, I don't really think that Twitter or Facebook would really prevent somebody like Mubarak, Suharto or Somoza (I feel even slightly guilty from including Mubarak here, as while he is an incorrectible asshole, he is not a genocidal psychopath like the latter death squad guys) from taking power. The violent response to the protests by Gaddafi is condemnable, but if Suharto was in his place everybody involved would've been hacked to death by machetes and thrown into a river http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/07/07/suharto-monster-of-the-cia-and-u-s-empir-1 .

[R_P_A_S]

Im confused.. aren't they protesting against Gadaffi? His government?

[TC]

Saudi Arabia has a GDP per capita around 3x that of Libya. I've seen no evidence that Libya offers higher living standards for a Proletarian than Saudi Arabia.


Saudi Arabia keeps half its population as domestic/sex slaves. Libya does not. To call the Saudi Arabian government fascist is to insult Mussolini who was far more liberal and progressive.

GDP per capita is a totally irrelevant measure except to warped bourgeois economists since it does not reflect in anyway the living conditions of the population.

[Dimentio]

Saudi Arabia keeps half its population as domestic/sex slaves. Libya does not. To call the Saudi Arabian government fascist is to insult Mussolini who was far more liberal and progressive.

GDP per capita is a totally irrelevant measure except to warped bourgeois economists since it does not reflect in anyway the living conditions of the population.

Sadly, Saudi Arabia's ideology is not a reflect so much of the government (which is composed of both liberal and conservative princes), but of the clergy which are using the Wahhabi doctrine to repress the people.

The one Saudi King who tried to liberalise the country, Faisal, was killed because he allowed TV's. That - and Osama's vigilantism - is the only type of active opposition you see to the Monarchy (though the eastern part might try to break off).

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Toppler:


And yes, I fear that the uprising is more motivated by "we want ipods and shiny cars"

Yes, people will face tanks and machine guns just to own i-pods.:lol:


The people in 1991 USSR also held protests, yet you see how shit the former USSR is now

That's because there was no Bolshevik Workers' Party to lead them -- the Stalinists had killed them all in the 1930s.

[Luís Henrique]

What is this discussion about GDP?

Would we oppose a revolution in Norway because it has such a nice GDP per capita?

Luís Henrique