Why is it?.....

[mEds]

that so many people especially in these forums don't believe in God as (the creator) we could not have spawned out of nothingness. The big bang could have not just happened. A common answer I hear from some atheists is I dont care or asking for proof of God. Remember im not asking wheter u believe in God as in a religious way but just as in a creation theory. Thank you!

[BuyOurEverything]

Nothing in the universe suggests the existence of a higher power to me. Everything happens as a direct result of something else. People always use god as an excuse for things they don't understand. Also, religion has been a tremendous force of manipulation throughout the ages. I'm not claiming to know how the universe came to be but just because I, a biological entity can't explain something that occured billions of years ago certainly doesn't prove, or even suggest, the presence of any sort of higher being.

[crazy comie]

GOD is made up to explain things .

[(*]

I believe in God!

The keyword of course is believe or belief ... nothing is certain, truth is a state of mind.

[commie kg]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 9 2003, 07:08 AM
GOD is made up to explain things .
Exactly. Religions of all kinds were invented to help man explain the unexplainable.

[Invader Zim]

I dont believe its true because its obviously bullshit. For several reasons: -

1. If god created theuniverse who created god?

2. If god is all knowing then why did he allow man to become sinful?

3. If God does not like human suffering then why does he allow it to happen?

4. If God is omnopitant then he can create an unmoveble box, if he cannot move it he cannot move the box, therefor he is not all powerful, if he can move it he cant create an unmoveable box.

5. The Bible is full of hypocracy.

6. I dont believe in the tooth fairy either so why should I believe in god?


God is shit.

[mEds]

where did i mention you have to believe in God in the religious way. stay on topic. well, who created god creator and him ect.?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 09:45 PM
where did i mention you have to believe in God in the religious way. stay on topic. well, who created god creator and him ect.?
well, who created god creator and him ect.?

Nobody thats the point, god does not exist to even create. The universe is currently not explaied by science, there is no reason to believe in fairy tales to satisfy that ignorance.

And im not off topic remotly.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

are trying to assert the fact that we don't know how the universe was created? We don't know. The fact that we cannot expalin how it was actualy created is by no means froof that "god" is the one who created it. For example: I have no idea how my computer works, does that suggest that it works magicaly? Absolutely not.

You're asking whether we believe in god "as in a creation way". I don't know what this means, lad, i'm sorry. But the reason why I don't believe in god period, is because I have never seen, heard, felt, tasted, or smelled anything that suggested that something like "god" could possibly exist... ever. Most things that people say are evident whether it is possible or not, but christianity is a fucking joke.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 05:38 PM
I have no idea how my computer works, does that suggest that it works magicaly? Absolutely not.


But other people do know, for certain. To find out all you have to do is search the web.

You can not prove the existence of god nor refute it.

But if God does exist, I'm set!
If not, I would have lost nothing.

[BuyOurEverything]

You can not prove the existence of god nor refute it.

But if God does exist, I'm set!

If that's your only evidence for the existence of god, that's pretty weak. By your logic, no religion ever devised can ever be proven or refuted, so why do you believe in a christian god? (I'm assuming you're a christian but its irrelevant either way.) You can't refute the existence of the gods of the ancient African tribes or of the Native American gods. For that matter you can't refute the fact that I'M god so start worshipping!


If not, I would have lost nothing. Except for your entire life.


I have no idea how my computer works, does that suggest that it works magicaly? Absolutely not.



But other people do know, for certain. To find out all you have to do is search the web.
So it wasn't the best analogy, it doesn't change the facts.

[Umoja]

I'll explain this in a non-traditional way, and I'm feeling pretty sick now, so I'm semi-serious here. Let me start this with a quote.

1. If god created theuniverse who created god?
"Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."
-Hypostasis of the Archons

The Universe created god. The Universe can be viewed in a Pantheistic way as God-like, but it created god. Then god shaped the Universe. Just like the Earth created humanity, and how we now shape the Earth.

2. If god is all knowing then why did he allow man to become sinful?
Because as above, god is filled with delusions of granduer.

3. If God does not like human suffering then why does he allow it to happen?
Who said that?

4. If God is omnopitant then he can create an unmoveble box, if he cannot move it he cannot move the box, therefor he is not all powerful, if he can move it he cant create an unmoveable box.
I've tried to explain this on ISF. You need to give a number to the box, "imoveable" isn't quantatative, and practically only quantatative terms have meaning.

5. The Bible is full of hypocracy.
Did god get a pen and paper and write? Can god even write?

6. I dont believe in the tooth fairy either so why should I believe in god?
You believe in abstract concepts like revenge, which are methods of sacrifice to some cosmic god of revenge, etc.

Clearly I'm being crazy right now, but at the same time being truthful.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 06:07 PM

If that's your only evidence for the existence of god, that's pretty weak. By your logic, no religion ever devised can ever be proven or refuted, so why do you believe in a christian god? (I'm assuming you're a christian but its irrelevant either way.) You can't refute the existence of the gods of the ancient African tribes or of the Native American gods. For that matter you can't refute the fact that I'M god so start worshipping!





Um, I wasn't trying to prove the existence of God. Read that post again, and my previous ones as well.

BTW, I never refuted the existence of Native American or African Gods.

Can you not understand my argument?

Can you prove God does not exist?

[commie kg]

You can't prove that God does exist, either. Religion is based on blind faith, never a good thing.

[Umoja]

Materialism doesn't have any room for god, no. So the concept is completely beyond a materialist mindset.

[Som]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 08:25 AM
that so many people especially in these forums don't believe in God as (the creator) we could not have spawned out of nothingness. The big bang could have not just happened. A common answer I hear from some atheists is I dont care or asking for proof of God. Remember im not asking wheter u believe in God as in a religious way but just as in a creation theory. Thank you!
Well say you're sitting in ancient athens, its early morning, the suns coming up.

Whats the sun? whys it going across the sky?

Well, being contemporaries of the time, that quite clearly proves that it must be the chariot of the gods.
Was anyone going to give proof otherwise?


Ignorance does not prove anything.

Simple as that.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Okay the computer analogy was irelevent, sorry.

But i still don't think it's logical to assume that god exists from simply reading a book which claims that he does. What has ocured that suggests that god exists? Has he "done" anything recently of which we have any evidence? Anyway, this thread isn't really about the existance of god, I think, well... I don't really know what it's about, so never mind.

[(*]

That's it!

Nobody can prove either side!

[mEds]

Yeah, I didn't want us to be circle jerking to the end but, the sides cannot have a "halfway: point whatsoever.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by (*!@Sep 10 2003, 10:41 AM
Can you prove God does not exist?
There are many scientific laws that instantly nullify the existence of 'god'.

You cannot prove a negative. If I said that a giant chocolate rabbit blew up a planet thousands of light-years away, would you believe me, without the existence of proof? Oh, but according to your 'logic', it must exist, because you cannot prove it doesn't!

[(*]

Originally posted by Neutral [email protected] 10 2003, 02:06 AM
but according to your 'logic', it must exist, because you cannot prove it doesn't!
Um, that's not my logic.

I don't recall saying that God exists because you can't prove he doesn't.
Neither side has proof, plain and simple. By default that does not mean God exists and it does not mean that God doesn't exist.

It's not that complicated, sheesh :rolleyes:

[crazy comie]

there are historical dates of when lots of reiligions where founded. The first men belived in lots of gods wich dissagrees with all the main religons except hinduism. but none of the origanle men belived in the same god's as any one does now.

[Legends]

I personally like to believe in something that I cant prove. So I sit on the fence when it comes to god.

[FistFullOfSteel]

jah

[crazy comie]

i dissagre with religeon.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Isntead of asking whether or not god exists, why not ask "why would you believe in god?" Because that is the real issue. It's obvious, above all other things, that it's completely ilogical to say that god exists, the question is why would you believe in something, even if you have no evidence that it exists? I suppose it has something to do with spirituality, I have no idea what spirituality is, so i can't really answer, eh?

[sc4r]

because quite simply if you can say 'it cannot just be' then I can make, with exactly the same justification, the same statement about 'god'. He/it cannot 'just be'. Invoking other dimensions etc. as is common solves nothing. Eventually it all boils down to the same thing.

So since we are here we know that something 'just was'. We dont know what., and 'God' is no more plausible on this basis than anything else (for other reasons it is in my view quite a bit less plausible).

[mEds]

We should all go read Das Kapital and bore ourselves till we fall asleep. Sure there are some interesting analoges and see hwo communism works, but still zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzZZZzZzzzZZ.

[BuyOurEverything]

There are many scientific laws that instantly nullify the existence of 'god'.

You cannot prove a negative. If I said that a giant chocolate rabbit blew up a planet thousands of light-years away, would you believe me, without the existence of proof? Oh, but according to your 'logic', it must exist, because you cannot prove it doesn't!
Exactly


Isntead of asking whether or not god exists, why not ask "why would you believe in god?" Because that is the real issue. It's obvious, above all other things, that it's completely ilogical to say that god exists, the question is why would you believe in something, even if you have no evidence that it exists? I suppose it has something to do with spirituality, I have no idea what spirituality is, so i can't really answer, eh?
You ever read Future of an Illusion by Sigmund Freud? Great book.

[bluerev002]

Uuuu hu. Well, since no one else didand everyone else went off topic, Ill answer Dominant's question now.

In my opinion most people in this board dont belive in god is because they are not ignorant. They most likely were brought up to belive a certain thing by their famlies, but that wasnt enough so they went off questioning what has been taught to them. In other words, they question everything (I should probably say "we" since I'm included). Most likely most were brought up to belive in god, but we questioned, and we found an answer. Did we arrive at thecorrect answer...fo' sho'!

I mean, of course there cant be a god, and I wont say why cuz you I would only be repeating what has been said before.

:huh: ................................................ :blink:

[bluerev002]

Oh, and I doubt that the universee was created by god, and I doubt that it was created by a big bang... How was it created...hell, if scientist dont know, how do you expect me to know?!

[BuyOurEverything]

I doubt that it was created by a big bang
Why's that?

[commie kg]

"If God existed, it would be nessecary to abolish him." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 11 2003, 04:41 AM
"If God existed, it would be nessecary to abolish him." -- Mikhail Bakunin
can't say i dissagre

[bluerev002]

Why not? I dont know. I really cant explain, but its hard to believe that one small thing can creat a vast endless thingy. First off, because things cant come out of nowhere. Take shrooms or example, they dont just appear, they have to be created by rotting stuff. So if something had to come from somwhere else, that one small thingy could not possibly create something thats larger than life. Capichi? eeh, dont worry, I dont get it either. :) And we might never will.

[the SovieT]

as usual i will provide the scientific theory (proof if want to call it that) that god and any other creating being dont exist..


First of all there is this vicious idea that the universe had a begining..

WRONG

and why is that?
well, and i will try to be sound and clear..

everything you see, touch or feel is matter.. then again, matter is everything that exists, anything that can or cannot give you feelings or emotions, everything outside the campus of your imagination
then it isnt hard to figure that living beings, humans for instances are nothing but moving matter..
those are matter that evolved so much that aquired inteligence, Conscience, in other words awareness for all that surounds us...
so by that, one, deduces that the unvirse itself is composed by matter... yes, that same matter aquire many difrent forms but it is all still matter...

so now that you understand what matter means and that you are composed by matter, like the universe, lets move on to why cant the universe really "begin" or "end"..

as any 8/9 grader knows, matter cannot be built or destroyed, it can only change..
so then again being the universe composed by matter it cant really had a begining or a end, it can only change, wich is doing, it will change troughout time, since this last is infinite...
you cant really stop time, nor can you predict the end of it, since time and matter are infinite, they cannot stop but they can and will change...


resuming, the universe did not had a "begining" it only changed its form, like its doing now, with teh creation of new stars, the disapearing of others etc etc etc...



the creation of life itself its something rather hard to explain, but still in the science campus, life spawns from microorganism, that can be found almost everywhere, where there is water there is life, why?
because the existant micro organisms will evolve, aquire "life" and continue its evolution..
until some may aquire conscience, like what happen with us Humans....







so in resume God cannot exist..
the Dialects dont allow it... ;)








This was another message from the great teacher and architect of Communism....the SovieT

[mEds]

BUT, science also teaches us---- the universe could NOT always have been here.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:08 PM
BUT, science also teaches us---- the universe could NOT always have been here.
For pitty´s sake kid in what "science for morons" manual have you read that?

i am providing you proofs that the universe was ALWAYS here...



and yet you follow the christian path...


some people are just alergic to knowledge....

[mEds]

But HOW could the Universe always have been? LOL.. So ill use your logic.----> :) But how could God always have been?

[Blibblob]

"If God existed, it would be nessecary to abolish him." -- Mikhail Bakunin
Only if he/she/it was comanding. Except that exact statement sits still and says why few believe Bakunin's ideas. Because god has always been comanding(mainstream religions of all time, from Ra to the Bible), and asking for people to kill and die for him/her/it, and so far, nobody has abolished him/her/it. Although it would be a good idea to do that... Anyways, off that.

Why not? I dont know. I really cant explain, but its hard to believe that one small thing can creat a vast endless thingy. First off, because things cant come out of nowhere. Take shrooms or example, they dont just appear, they have to be created by rotting stuff. So if something had to come from somwhere else, that one small thingy could not possibly create something thats larger than life. Capichi? eeh, dont worry, I dont get it either. And we might never will.
That is a very good point on that, however, most scientist's revised edition of the big bang is that it was from a previous universe, that it expanded, sucked back in on itself and then exploded. And then there is the never ending expansion(only one bang), that says that that isn't true. Don't forget that it has been here forever, and will never go away. Also, don't forget the MIB "theory", that the universe is a giant alien playing marbles. :lol:

All "god" was was a representation of nature, of all of the "magical" things that took place that they were to ignorant to understand, but that has been said before. Why do people still beleive was/is the question. Tradition.

Then again, I'm not atheist. I think that all gods exist as something that is not omnicient per say. Every civilization in BC were able to come to almost exactly the same conclusion, and they lived half way around the world from each other(either that says that all great minds think alike(which I don't follow), or that their conclusion must have a great deal of truth). Then, around the same time(now into A.D.(sort of)), many civilizations again recompiled data and came to another conclusion, there is only one god(Judism being a seperate part, as they were rather early). Now the main idea is that there is one god, although reading the ancient writings of those religions say something rather different. Bible, one god from the Old Testament, and one(could be two...) from the New, making two gods(could be three...). And of course this can all be explained with simple logic and psychological and sociological explanations... Old testament being greed(jealousy, etc.), new being wisdom(yes, Demurge and Sophia). Ego, Id, SuperEgo...(whichever one being the "concience" being Jesus(close enough!). Since it can be explained, why do I bother... Sorry for the long ranting post, it was a discovery for me, I'm now agonstic or athiest, or whatever...(I'm confused)

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:15 PM
But HOW could the Universe always have been? LOL.. So ill use your logic.----> :) But how could God always have been?
as i said some people are just alergic to knowledge...



UNIVERSE IS COMPOSED BY MATTER...
MATTER IS INFINITE, IT DOESNT BEGIN OR END, ONLY CHANGE ITSELF..
THEREFORE THE UNIVERSE DID NOT "BEGUN" NOR WILL END..

Capisco?

[Blibblob]

For pitty´s sake kid in what "science for morons" manual have you read that?
If Dominant went to an American school, that's what the foul wrong textbooks would have taught.

But HOW could the Universe always have been? LOL.. So ill use your logic.----> But how could God always have been?
The human mind cannot comprehend infinity. Try counting to it :D. The fact that we only use a very small percentage(even worse than my spanish grade!:lol:) of our brain might be part of the problem.

[mEds]

UHH your off topic again. I explicitly said GOD as in THE CREATOR of the universe/s bigbang/s. I dont really give a fuck if you "beleive: in him in the RELIGIOUS way. All im saying is that there HAS TO HAVE BEEN an ultimate creator. I.e God IS the universe or some entity that created the big fuckin bang etc etc etc.

[mEds]

True, so then by your logic it is irrational to belive or to not belive in God the creator.

[Blibblob]

True, so then by your logic it is irrational to belive or to not belive in God the creator.
That's the conclusion Agnostics have come to.

God was used(doesn't he feel abused now?) to explain the "big bang", or the reason those little humans existed, as in how they went poof onto this little planet. They didn't have very much knowledge on science, so they used god, they were ignorant. This has been explained.

//comment on your changing of avatar
They didn't speak against free will, just take it as a suggestion :D. But the dancing banana is very scary... I hated that flash movie, I jumped and screamed in fear when I saw it...

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 11:26 PM
UHH your off topic again. I explicitly said GOD as in THE CREATOR of the universe/s bigbang/s. I dont really give a fuck if you "beleive: in him in the RELIGIOUS way. All im saying is that there HAS TO HAVE BEEN an ultimate creator. I.e God IS the universe or some entity that created the big fuckin bang etc etc etc.
*sigh*

i aredy gave you SCIENTIFIC theorys about taht..

yet you INSIST in being stupid...


ok kid go read your bible then....

[mEds]

I bet you use mIRC ..///////////To SoViet: Your "answers" aren't sufficient.

[Blibblob]

I bet you use mIRC ..
Was that to me? If I'm assuming correctly, then the double slash is for the comment tag in C++... yes, I'm bored and am learning that.

To SoViet: Your "answers" aren't sufficient.
But I want to complain for him. Why not?

[mEds]

read the red print in my signature.

[bluerev002]

Soviet T, everything has to begin to exist at some point. It cant just pop out of nowhere, or like your stating, it cant have just been htere forever. WTF was before the universe? I mean, was it all blank? Or were tehre great civilizations that knew how to travel at the speed of light? Everything has to have a beggining. If matter cannot be created (I have to agree with you on that to some extent) then where in the fuck did it come from? Did it just "poof" oh shit matter! But I thought it couldnt be created? Naw it wasnt created it "poofed" out of nowhere.mmmmmmm naw.

Human hands cannot create matter. What creates matter, I dont know, I really dont, but it has to have been created bajillions of years ago.

All this thining makes me hungy ^_^

[bluerev002]

And another thing, can you really trust scientist? One day they tell you its good to let your children play with pets and another they say its bad. They are always switching opinions, How would they know the truth to the universe? The truth is that there is no real truth. because its not only science, it also history. And history cannot be proven unless it has written records, obiosly there are no written records only stars. But there are not stars old enough so we can never really know how this world was created.

[Blibblob]

read the red print in my signature.
That is a really bad excuse.

Human hands cannot create matter. What creates matter, I dont know, I really dont, but it has to have been created bajillions of years ago.
Energy creates matter. E=mc2. All that states is that energy and matter are interchangeable. Therefore, whatever was before, could have been only energy. What kind of energy, no clue. Again, humans cannot comprehend infinity. :D. And I&#39;m begining to feel like my previous posts were ignored, hehe.............. <_<

[Blibblob]

And another thing, can you really trust scientist? One day they tell you its good to let your children play with pets and another they say its bad. They are always switching opinions, How would they know the truth to the universe? The truth is that there is no real truth. because its not only science, it also history. And history cannot be proven unless it has written records, obiosly there are no written records only stars. But there are not stars old enough so we can never really know how this world was created.
It is true to the fullest extent of our knowledge. Maybe that&#39;s why many people aren&#39;t athiest, but agnostic. Translating both out of latin being not(no, whatver) god(deist, theism, religion, whatever again...), and not(no) knowledge.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 12:10 AM
Soviet T, everything has to begin to exist at some point. It cant just pop out of nowhere, or like your stating, it cant have just been htere forever. WTF was before the universe? I mean, was it all blank? Or were tehre great civilizations that knew how to travel at the speed of light? Everything has to have a beggining. If matter cannot be created (I have to agree with you on that to some extent) then where in the fuck did it come from? Did it just "poof" oh shit matter&#33; But I thought it couldnt be created? Naw it wasnt created it "poofed" out of nowhere.mmmmmmm naw.

Human hands cannot create matter. What creates matter, I dont know, I really dont, but it has to have been created bajillions of years ago.

All this thining makes me hungy ^_^
"It cant just pop out of nowhere"

thats exactly why it does not have a begining or a end..
i have tried to be the simplest as possible..


and for the last time i will try to explain..

EVERYTHING is matter..

OXIGEN IS matter...
the meere particles and atoms ARE matter...

all you see (and dont see..) is matter....

matter is everything, from rocks, to dogs, passing form the smoke and your own bodie..

now may i ask you..
can you body disapear?
No&#33;
even if you burn it, it willbecome ashes, even if you slash it into infinitly small pieces it will still exist, if you die, it will still exist..
for example, you die, you are buried and all..
now your body becomes to decompose..
but does the particals taht decompose disapear?
no they strecht (in case of gases inside your organism taht are activated when you rot) or shrink, change color, become smaller and weaker, but they never disapear..
now when your body starts being eated by worms, do those parts disapear?
no they are simply digested by the worms, and later BECOME the worms, they become part of something new, they did not simply disapeard they just became something difrent, something possibly not alive but still matter..
resuming you changed..
you lost your "life" but you still exist as matter...


the same happens with the rest of matter..
it constantly changes...

you are also following a simple yet wrong assumption, that things NEED to have a "why", a reason to exist..
you and me dont actually need a reason to be alive..
we are alive simply becose matter "allowed" us to have a conscience, because our matter evolved to the point of aquiring conscience...

its a simple "cause and efect" reaction..
something (cause) becomes or changes something, thus creating a efect that is a new product..
there is not a need for a "why" that cause become or "created" that "efect" it simply happened...



In resume, matter exists always, it can however be a simple gas, a meere rock or dirt, however it always existed....
what may not existed all the time was life, but still it alredy existed before, and will continue to exist, even if in a certain space and time may not exist it doesnt mean that it wount exist in all space AND time...

space is infinite and "immortal" it cannot have a end or a begining because it consists of matter...


and now tell me, if it had a creation, then what existed BEFORE that creation?
and if it was originated then WHAT originated it?
and if something originated it THEN before the "universe" existed somethiung else existed, therefore that something else would be part of the Universe...

so by this one deduces taht your theorys are not only wrong but have no logical reasons....

[mEds]

Ive already reached a conclusion. Stop talking about God. The arguments only go in circles. :P

[sc4r]

Look for pities sake. It is obviously true that something had to &#39;just exist&#39;. Even if that something is merely a collection of mathematical rules and some &#39;stuff&#39; (material, physical or metaphysical, or other) which could merge in different ways.

Nobody would dispute that.

But it is not remotely sensible to call that something &#39;God&#39; without a whole lot of extra evidence as to what the specifics of the &#39;just was stuff&#39; are. The concept &#39;God&#39; does not merely imply &#39;something unexplained that was always there&#39;, but a huge amount of other things.

You cannot simply redefine concepts which are in general use to win an argument. If you do this you can &#39;prove&#39; anything at all, and worse communication between people becomes totally meaningless.

[the SovieT]

your ideological conclusions mean nothing to the dialects..

unless you finally understood the dialects then your conclusion is nothing buyt a product of your faith and therefore not relevant for the thread in question...


the arguments are not going in circles, they just did not changed, in fact i have only presented one "set" of arguments, wich i latter developed and explained bether...
arguments that you nor anyone else could prove wrong..
so in resume stop trying to kill the debate when you dont have arguments against the dialects...

[Sasafrás]

I&#39;m agnostic. I try not to focus on God at all. When I think about the way that the universe came to be, I tend to have the word "maybe" in my head a lot. Maybe God created the universe. Maybe there was a strange explosion that created planets. I really don&#39;t know or care. I tend to focus on that fact that I&#39;m alive and not think about things that happened millions or thousands of years before I was born. What&#39;s the point?

Maybe God created science.

Nothing is real. It&#39;s all a figment of our imaginations. ;)

[crazy comie]

there is a big crunch theaory wich leads to another big bang maybe it has been going round in circulesfor infinete.
Then theres the the nothing theory.

[Hatchet]

Hey,
I think there is an amazing number of juvenile arguments that have been put forward in this topic, and will probably be put forward yet again. I don&#39;t pretend to understand the beggining of the universe, i would be a fool to do so. Anyone would be a fool to try. I do however have one basic, logical and well accepted(even, unknowingly by fundamentalists) idea that completely destroys the idea of god as the creator, at least of life. This idea is evolution. All people, at least those who are not determined not to, accept evolution as an accurate theory based in fact. Even those who deny the idea of evolution accept it, simply by acknowledging the existence of AIDS, a disease that has evolved in the last 50 years. What about the anti-biotic resistant bacteria? Do you deny the existence of this? Evolution is at work all around us, don&#39;t ignore it. This is the only proof i need against god. We, humans, have destroyed the only reason we now need god, to explain where we came from. If you need further convincing go to your library and read Almost like a Whale. Proof.

Hatchet

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 12:44 PM
Hey,
I think there is an amazing number of juvenile arguments that have been put forward in this topic, and will probably be put forward yet again. I don&#39;t pretend to understand the beggining of the universe, i would be a fool to do so. Anyone would be a fool to try. I do however have one basic, logical and well accepted(even, unknowingly by fundamentalists) idea that completely destroys the idea of god as the creator, at least of life. This idea is evolution. All people, at least those who are not determined not to, accept evolution as an accurate theory based in fact. Even those who deny the idea of evolution accept it, simply by acknowledging the existence of AIDS, a disease that has evolved in the last 50 years. What about the anti-biotic resistant bacteria? Do you deny the existence of this? Evolution is at work all around us, don&#39;t ignore it. This is the only proof i need against god. We, humans, have destroyed the only reason we now need god, to explain where we came from. If you need further convincing go to your library and read Almost like a Whale. Proof.

Hatchet
that is 100% correct

[Umoja]

This article is pretty good-

http://www.enemies.com/html/oldtestament/1/intro.html

[bluerev002]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 11 2003, 04:30 PM


"It cant just pop out of nowhere"

thats exactly why it does not have a begining or a end..
i have tried to be the simplest as possible..


and for the last time i will try to explain..

EVERYTHING is matter..

OXIGEN IS matter...
the meere particles and atoms ARE matter...

all you see (and dont see..) is matter....

matter is everything, from rocks, to dogs, passing form the smoke and your own bodie..

now may i ask you..
can you body disapear?
No&#33;
even if you burn it, it willbecome ashes, even if you slash it into infinitly small pieces it will still exist, if you die, it will still exist..
for example, you die, you are buried and all..
now your body becomes to decompose..
but does the particals taht decompose disapear?
no they strecht (in case of gases inside your organism taht are activated when you rot) or shrink, change color, become smaller and weaker, but they never disapear..
now when your body starts being eated by worms, do those parts disapear?
no they are simply digested by the worms, and later BECOME the worms, they become part of something new, they did not simply disapeard they just became something difrent, something possibly not alive but still matter..
resuming you changed..
you lost your "life" but you still exist as matter...


the same happens with the rest of matter..
it constantly changes...

you are also following a simple yet wrong assumption, that things NEED to have a "why", a reason to exist..
you and me dont actually need a reason to be alive..
we are alive simply becose matter "allowed" us to have a conscience, because our matter evolved to the point of aquiring conscience...

its a simple "cause and efect" reaction..
something (cause) becomes or changes something, thus creating a efect that is a new product..
there is not a need for a "why" that cause become or "created" that "efect" it simply happened...



In resume, matter exists always, it can however be a simple gas, a meere rock or dirt, however it always existed....
what may not existed all the time was life, but still it alredy existed before, and will continue to exist, even if in a certain space and time may not exist it doesnt mean that it wount exist in all space AND time...

space is infinite and "immortal" it cannot have a end or a begining because it consists of matter...


and now tell me, if it had a creation, then what existed BEFORE that creation?
and if it was originated then WHAT originated it?
and if something originated it THEN before the "universe" existed somethiung else existed, therefore that something else would be part of the Universe...

so by this one deduces taht your theorys are not only wrong but have no logical reasons.... [/quote]
If something pops out of nowhere then it had no beggining, it was just....there. Thats what I meant. And your example of the body is a bad one becaue teh human body does have a beggining. So does everything around you, and it will be destroyed. The matter that made it up will change into something else, then that will be destroyed and the matter that made that will change into something else. But take it back back back back back way back. Soemthing had to have made matter, may it be the energy produced from stars or may it be just little specks floating around in space. Its impossible for something to not have a beggining.

"and now tell me, if it had a creation, then what existed BEFORE that creation?
and if it was originated then WHAT originated it?
and if something originated it THEN before the "universe" existed somethiung else existed, therefore that something else would be part of the Universe..."

Thats what Im asking you&#33;&#33;&#33;

Somthing was before the universe and before that and maybe tahts where things started, but my point is that it had to start&#33;


Obiosly we will never figure thsi out. Scientist say if it has a begining it must have an end, and since matter has no ending they concluded that it has no begining either. We will never know, no one will ever know, the best scientist in the world will never know.

[crazy comie]

we don&#39;t no what happend befor the big bang.
but pepole who belive in god have no evidencethat he exests and just belive becuse they want to belive someones watchin over them.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by crazy comie+Sep 13 2003, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (crazy comie @ Sep 13 2003, 04:07 PM)
[email protected] 13 2003, 12:44 PM
Hey,
I think there is an amazing number of juvenile arguments that have been put forward in this topic, and will probably be put forward yet again. I don&#39;t pretend to understand the beggining of the universe, i would be a fool to do so. Anyone would be a fool to try. I do however have one basic, logical and well accepted(even, unknowingly by fundamentalists) idea that completely destroys the idea of god as the creator, at least of life. This idea is evolution. All people, at least those who are not determined not to, accept evolution as an accurate theory based in fact. Even those who deny the idea of evolution accept it, simply by acknowledging the existence of AIDS, a disease that has evolved in the last 50 years. What about the anti-biotic resistant bacteria? Do you deny the existence of this? Evolution is at work all around us, don&#39;t ignore it. This is the only proof i need against god. We, humans, have destroyed the only reason we now need god, to explain where we came from. If you need further convincing go to your library and read Almost like a Whale. Proof.

Hatchet
that is 100% correct [/b]
actually thats 100% Incorrect...

Hatchet you come form the idea that humans are jsut meant to not know some stuff..

for example in the past it has been said that it was impossible to fly, and everyone who tried was a fool.. such knowledge was just not meant to be understood by man..
yet as the present proves it we managed to understand how to create and pilot "flying machines"...
your idea of being a fool for trying to know about teh origins of the universe comes in the same level of those..
you are insinuating that certain information and knowledge is impossible for being understood by mankind..
yet that is wrong, no knowledge is ever impossible.. and you most certainly ARENT a fool for TRYING to know...

anyways once again you felt in another methaphisical trap...
...




bluerev002: no your body had a begining because it evolved form something else, firs semen, then fetus, lather baby etc etc...
it proves my point... even though the final product is something radivly difrent and new, it didnt apeard of NOTHING.. it came from MATTER...
the same aplies for the universe..
(also you are seeing things individually, you must see things as a whole, everything conects and nothing is a isolated case, remeber all is in constante change with nature around, you cannot simply ignore the "relations" between matter...)


anyways this is not hard to understand..
you people are making it hard to understand by creating problems were they dont really exist...
Materialism is righjt, and so are the dialects... for that study Marx and Engels Works on the Dialects and materialism.. you will certainly aquire a new and much more accurate perspective of the world around you... (remember i used to be "like you" before start studing Marxism...)

[El jefecito]

Men created religion along with a "GOD" in order to feel worthy and part of a greater thing than themselves.

[crazy comie]

this is true El jefecito.

[Comrade lex]

If you believe in god, you can still be a communist. But I thin that a lot of communists aren&#39;t religious becasue they don&#39;t like the idea of higher powers being in chage of their fate so to speak. I for one am an aethiest, I live on morals and I have respect for my fellow man. I think that you should be a little less defensive in your religion. because then nothing can really get disgussed at all

[crazy comie]

no true marxist could belive in god

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 16 2003, 02:18 AM
If you believe in god, you can still be a communist. But I thin that a lot of communists aren&#39;t religious becasue they don&#39;t like the idea of higher powers being in chage of their fate so to speak. I for one am an aethiest, I live on morals and I have respect for my fellow man. I think that you should be a little less defensive in your religion. because then nothing can really get disgussed at all
the term is Christian-socialist i believe...

[harely]

are we god&#39;s creation or is god our creation??????????

I believe that we are god&#39;s creation&#33; I also believe in god in a religious way, but just as i believe in god i also believe he is not the one responsible for all the bad things that occur in this world. why? because god is love&#33; but for you to believe that you would have to believe in the bible and since you don&#39;t believe in that well then there is no way to help all of you guys understand that god does exist. the only proof that i need of god&#39;s existance is that all of you are alive and that im alive. like everyone says, we didn&#39;t get here out of no where so why is it so hard for some of you to believe in a supreme being? :huh:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 08:45 PM
where did i mention you have to believe in God in the religious way. stay on topic. well, who created god creator and him ect.?

Who created god? Who created the thing that created god. Who created the thing that created the thing that created god. It&#39;s infinite and absurd. It&#39;s amazing people still believe in God in this day and age.

Don&#39;t worry folks, eventually physics will tell us what was before the big bang. It&#39;s only a matter of time.

[crazy comie]

that is true raf

[KickMcCann]

Can I just interject an alternative theory. I find it so mind boggling, all this western Judeo-Christian-Islamic ideology about God as an individual. A man floating in the clouds, creating us and farting lightning bolts. I am from the west, but luckily, was never indoctrinated in these ideologies. My mind was allowed to wander and come up with its own conclusions.
This is what I came up with.

Originally, there was nothing. But since nothing is actually a contridiction to itself, it automatically became aware it was something. That was the birth of conciousness, not human conciousness, but awareness in general. So this identity, which incompassed all of this nothing was alone and bored. Existence never ends, so sitting there being nothing forever can get boring pretty quick. So this identity, bored by nothingness, decided to make a sacrifice of itself. It would divide itself in half, so that there would be 2 of itself, hense something to balance itself with. So, it divided its self. 1 became 2. But the 2 new identities were exact copies of the first, so their last thought was to divide as well. So they divided too. And all this dividing created a chain reaction, like splitting a bunch of atoms, it made the big bang. This created the universe.
Since it divided itself up into such tiny pieces, it forgot about its wholeness. Eventually, the universe churned up our solar system, out planet, and life began to evolve, nothing special, just the way things happened. And it probably happened on hundreds of other planets out there as well. And this is where evolution of life, awareness has led to, us. But I don&#39;t think humans are special or anything, just another species on this particular planet.

Anyway, to get to my point about what I think God is. I think we are all God. I think everything is God. We started out as one thing, and only in the imagination of the first awareness did we ever divide. We are still all connected. That God all these religions talk about, the God that seems to be everywhere, its actually just yourselves.

So I believe in evolution, science, big bang, and creation

So, I don&#39;t know. Does that make me crazy? I&#39;m not the least bit dogmatic or tribalalist in defending my beliefs. What is there to defend? Myself against myself? In my own little world, thats how it is. And I believe everyone has the right to make their own world. So think whatever you want, as long as you don&#39;t fuck up anyone elses world. :P

[crazy comie]

Intresting belifs.

[Nny]

Let me refer to the very first post, and one thing, before I go on, I am in no way claiming to know anything at all. Nothing. Not about god or science or whatever. Period.

Ok, think here, god, as a creator and only as a creator, would be the same thing as the big bang, correct? think now. It would, wouldn&#39;t it? Let&#39;s think of god and the big bang to be the exact same. The big bang could not have just happened, and neither could god. A power can not just be so great that it creates itself. What kind of lunicy is this? Not logic, of course not. And what, pre tell, is god made out of in the first place? Answer me that. What was the big bang made out of? How can you say that the big bang can&#39;t just pop out of nowhere and contradict yourself by saying that some god can? Rediculas. I don&#39;t know why I gave you any respect by addressing your pathetic forum.

[RedAnarchist]

[B][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1][COLOR=red]

Religion is a tool of the authorities. Some people actually fear a god, which is about as logical as a lion fearing an ant.
Even so, people who wish to have a religion are more than welcome to it.

[crazy comie]

Rieligons where all made up along time after earth beagan and that is 99.9999999% certain