Americans are smart, rebellious and will overthrow the US capitalist system in 2015

[MarxistMan]

People think in matters of present-tense. Many people do not think about the past nor the future. And people think that things in the past were the same as today and in the future things in USA will be the same. I mean with gasoline at 3 dollars, food relatively cheap, and many americans being able to eat from food-stamps and being able to find jobs.

The thing is that the USA right now is not in an objective revolutionary situation yet. Americans are real smart, and rebellious. Not dumb and apathetic like people think.

But right now the US economy is not at what Vladimir Lenin called "An objective revolutionary situation" yet. And I think that's why that american workers are not revolting in the streets. Because there can't be a popular rebellion if there is not a scientific objective revolutionary situation.

However, just because the US economy is ok right now, it doesn't mean that it will be at a critical situation around the year 2012, 2013 or 2015 or around later in 2020.

According to most economists like Paul Craig Roberts, Nouriel Roubini, Joseph Stiglitz, Ron Paul, Bob Chapman, Alan Woods from marxist.com, Mike Whitney, and Michael Hudson the US economy is in a real bad shape, and the US dollar will probably collapse.

When the US economy will get critical around 2015 or maybe earlier or maybe later around 2018 or 2020 you will see the great revolutionary spirit of hard working labor unions in USA uniting into a great revolutionary socialist party and socialist movement, along with the socialist leaders of America like Larry Holmes, Fred Goldstein, Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Alan Maass, Bill Von Auken, Stewart Alexander, Brian Moore, and others overthrowing the US capitalist government.

.

.

[NGNM85]

....But, can you tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well I wouldn't say just because we're going to hit hard economic times that everybody is just going to unite. I mean look at the Great Depression. Yeah there was a surge of radicalization among many many people even if they weren't formally part of any socialist party. But shit didn't go down then like it could have and if we have another one of those "opportunities" we can't just sit here and wait for it to happen.

But really Brian Moore? Come on, that guy's a joke last time I checked.

[wunderbar]

But really Brian Moore? Come on, that guy's a joke last time I checked.

That's what I was thinking. He's pretty much a U.S. progressive with an opportunistic streak. Moore was a Democrat before he ran for president in 2008 on the SP-USA ticket, then returned to the Democratic Party after the election. Reading about him right now, I see he also campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 2000, which is pretty troubling.

[ttomthebomb]

That's what I was thinking. He's pretty much a U.S. progressive with an opportunistic streak. Moore was a Democrat before he ran for president in 2008 on the SP-USA ticket, then returned to the Democratic Party after the election. Reading about him right now, I see he also campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 2000, which is pretty troubling.

His presidential plan looked quite promising when he ran under the Socialist party.

Moore supports strengthening the working class by weakening the capitalist system. He would withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, and reduce the budget for the Department of Defense by 50%. During his presidential campaign he claimed that the current economic system was falling apart because of capitalism's "own greed".

He was also apparently part of the Green Party a year before running under the Socialist ticket.

[MarxistMan]

Hello, wow, I didnt know that Brian Moore, candidate of the Socialist Party of USA returned to The Democratic Party, I thought that he was a real marxist socialist

.



That's what I was thinking. He's pretty much a U.S. progressive with an opportunistic streak. Moore was a Democrat before he ran for president in 2008 on the SP-USA ticket, then returned to the Democratic Party after the election. Reading about him right now, I see he also campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 2000, which is pretty troubling.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Hello, wow, I didnt know that Brian Moore, candidate of the Socialist Party of USA returned to The Democratic Party, I thought that he was a real marxist socialist

.

There was an extended thread on Brian Moore about 6 months ago. BM was on RevLeft, he was first restricted and then banned for being homophobic, anti-choice and apparently having fascistic inclinations.

The other people mentioned as "leaders of socialist America" are possibly a small part but there is much else. In the 90s there was an attempt by socialists and some labor activists dissillusoned by Clinton and the DP to create a US Labor Party. Hopefully this project will revive with more energy. I'm not hopeful though. There are magnificent class uprising vin Europe and the Middle East. The situation in the US is very quiet, sadly.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

According to most economists like Paul Craig Roberts, Nouriel Roubini, Joseph Stiglitz, Ron Paul, Bob Chapman, Alan Woods from marxist.com, Mike Whitney, and Michael Hudson the US economy is in a real bad shape, and the US dollar will probably collapse.

along with the socialist leaders of America like Larry Holmes, Fred Goldstein, Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Alan Maass, Bill Von Auken, Stewart Alexander, Brian Moore, and others overthrowing the US capitalist government.

.

Ron Paul is a joke. The others mentioned are highly intelligent liberals. Alan Woods is something of an opportunist.

We are in for a double tip and probably a Japan style extended recession. I don't see another basis for extended capital accumulation other then the self cannibalization at the expense of the working class coming along anytime soon. The current crisis dates from the early 70s. There is no way out except by the forcible dismantling of the system.

There is only one group of people who can do this....

[Tomhet]

Speaking of recession.. Does anybody know how the PRC fared in the 'Global economic crisis'?
Iceland and Greece were particularily devastated..

[Blackscare]

I hate these appeals to nationalist back-patting. Americans are not any smarter, more rebellious, or anything more than the inhabitants of other countries. People are people.

[Dóchas]

Speaking of recession.. Does anybody know how the PRC fared in the 'Global economic crisis'?
Iceland and Greece were particularily devastated..

China overtook Japan as the biggest economy after America earlier on this month but i dont know if that is due to Japans weakening economy or Chinas unaffected economy or both. If growth continues as it is, it will have overtaken the US in the next decade

[Lunatic Concept]

Well, ill believe it when I see it.

[Dóchas]

Well, ill believe it when I see it.

We'll see in the next decade i guess :)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

That is impossible because I will be having sex with Natalie and Scarlet tomorrow. Thats just silly what you said.

Do I smell a four way? What pheromones are you guys into anyway or is this just male bragadacio?

China so far has been relatively immune to the Great Recession. There is still invest fueling local economies there but this is not productive investment. China is also riding on huge real estate bubbles, which are bound to burst soon.

[Dóchas]

I heard from a friend that the Chinese government/businesses were deliberately devaluing the Renminbi (Chinese currency) so as to increase the value of their exports but im not sure if this is true or not

[scarletghoul]

The spirit of the OP is good but you don't have a good grasp of how revolutions come about. Yes, the conditions will get a lot worse but that doesn't make a revolution. There needs to be a lot more action from the Left at least, and it will take much longer than 4 years for a revolutionary situation to emerge. Maybe there will be an 'objectively revolutionary situation' at some point but we are long way from revolutionary subjectivity.

I do agree that some people are way too short sighted and dismissive of the US.. though we should not be playing Nostradamus and predicting dates, but rather acting as Nosferatu (that is, creeping around and establishing ourselves among the people. though the comparison ends there tbh )

[Dimentio]

People think in matters of present-tense. Many people do not think about the past nor the future. And people think that things in the past were the same as today and in the future things in USA will be the same. I mean with gasoline at 3 dollars, food relatively cheap, and many americans being able to eat from food-stamps and being able to find jobs.

The thing is that the USA right now is not in an objective revolutionary situation yet. Americans are real smart, and rebellious. Not dumb and apathetic like people think.

But right now the US economy is not at what Vladimir Lenin called "An objective revolutionary situation" yet. And I think that's why that american workers are not revolting in the streets. Because there can't be a popular rebellion if there is not a scientific objective revolutionary situation.

However, just because the US economy is ok right now, it doesn't mean that it will be at a critical situation around the year 2012, 2013 or 2015 or around later in 2020.

According to most economists like Paul Craig Roberts, Nouriel Roubini, Joseph Stiglitz, Ron Paul, Bob Chapman, Alan Woods from marxist.com, Mike Whitney, and Michael Hudson the US economy is in a real bad shape, and the US dollar will probably collapse.

When the US economy will get critical around 2015 or maybe earlier or maybe later around 2018 or 2020 you will see the great revolutionary spirit of hard working labor unions in USA uniting into a great revolutionary socialist party and socialist movement, along with the socialist leaders of America like Larry Holmes, Fred Goldstein, Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Alan Maass, Bill Von Auken, Stewart Alexander, Brian Moore, and others overthrowing the US capitalist government.

.

.

It is sadly more likely that Right-wing Libertarians and Religious nuts get the initiative.

[Amphictyonis]

We are in for a double tip and probably a Japan style extended recession. I don't see another basis for extended capital accumulation other then the self cannibalization at the expense of the working class coming along anytime soon.


They're trying to inflate a 'green tech' bubble. Thus far it's not working. To the OP, material conditions alone aren't going to be enough, we need to have organized workers with socialism on the mind. This is more likely to happen during a recession, yes, but, we need to make it happen.Thus far we're not doing so well in America. I blame it, in part, on the Obama presidency.

[Tommy4ever]

Speaking of recession.. Does anybody know how the PRC fared in the 'Global economic crisis'?
Iceland and Greece were particularily devastated..

China's economy is largely based around export industries. So despite the fact that little of China's economy was destroyed in the crisis growth was hit. Prior to the recession trend growth was at roughly 10% per year (ie each year the economy was 10% larger). During the recession that growth figure dropped to about 5%. Like the German economy China quickly rebounded when international demand for its manufactured goods increased once more. Now China's growth has returned to around 10%.

Greece didn't actually fare that badly in terms of growth. However, the recession just tipped the government into a fiscal crisis.

Around the Western world almost every state was out of recession by the start of 2010. However since then most have experienced sluggish growth. The UK has even returned to negative growth and is at serious risk of re-entering recession.

So China did do better than the West in the recession. However a growth figure 5% below trend is actually worse than what was experienced across Europe.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

There was an extended thread on Brian Moore about 6 months ago. BM was on RevLeft, he was first restricted and then banned for being homophobic, anti-choice and apparently having fascistic inclinations.

The other people mentioned as "leaders of socialist America" are possibly a small part but there is much else. In the 90s there was an attempt by socialists and some labor activists dissillusoned by Clinton and the DP to create a US Labor Party. Hopefully this project will revive with more energy. I'm not hopeful though. There are magnificent class uprising vin Europe and the Middle East. The situation in the US is very quiet, sadly.
Just rereading that thread with BM in it. Holy shit that was fun.

[zimmerwald1915]

Just rereading that thread with BM in it. Holy shit that was fun.
Link, for those who missed it and don't want to miss out?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Link, for those who missed it and don't want to miss out?
Believe this is the one she was talking about:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-brian-moore-t133477/index.html?t=133477&highlight=Brian+Moore

[Red_Struggle]

The class antagonisms need to reach national crisis first, before Americans start to seriously think about revolution. Even then, there are too many reactionary variables in play: The KKK, the tea parties, the nazi parties, white nationalists, republicans, libertarians, etc.. Worst case scenario, one of these groups will take control and we will have a civil war.

Of course, if a socialist party grabbed control, we would probably still have civil war with the amount of reaction in this country, and in turn it could have vast implications for this continent (famine, for example). I guess it depends on the consciousness of the American public at the time. Who knows? Maybe they will finally free their minds and start tearing down corporate ads and start rioting against their officials. Either way, it's revolution in America is going to be bloody.

Very very bloody.

[Sentinel]

General verbal warning: Removed spam posts from this thread, could everyone please refrain from making non-serious posts outside Chit Chat. Moreover, some of the oneliners in this thread do have a point, so I left them alone, but please try to take it easy with those as well. One can always find a way to add more substance to a post, and thus abide by the board rules.

As for the topic, yes the OP is a bit over-optimistic, but there is a fair enough chance that we will see a rapidly increased radicalisation in the US and the rest of the world from this point on. The protests in Wisconsin are a clear sign that people aren't as ready to put up with any shit that comes down the capitalist pipe anymore.

The Arab world revolutions inspire workers in the west to demand their rights as well, and generally the political atmosphere in the entire world has changed for the better due to them. Reaction is strong in the US though, and expecting a successful revolution there at the moment seems unrealistic.

But as said, things have started to change now, and this development is likely to keep on accelerating. It seems we're moving into a new radical period, but it's unique and different from previous ones partly due to the immense depth of the crisis of capitalism, and partly due to the rapid spread of information across the globe due to new technology, such as the internet.

Things happen faster than ever today. So I wouldn't say that the OP is right as naive as some seem to think.

[Rusty Shackleford]

look at this map (http://connect.freedomworks.org/).

tell me how it makes you feel.

this website and right-wing organizing tool is less than 2 weeks old

[bcbm]

Worst case scenario, one of these groups will take control and we will have a civil war.

civil war already exists but it is global the collapse of the economy is simply forcing previously ambivalent subjects to choose sides and become participants.

[ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo]

It is sadly more likely that Right-wing Libertarians and Religious nuts get the initiative.

Yeah, the Tea Party is more likely to gain power after any revolution in the USA; the revolution probably won't be socialist.

[Imposter Marxist]

Ron Paul is a joke. The others mentioned are highly intelligent liberals.

How are these people liberals?

[ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo]

How are these people liberals?

More importantly Ron Paul isn't funny.:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

There was an extended thread on Brian Moore about 6 months ago. BM was on RevLeft, he was first restricted and then banned for being homophobic, anti-choice and apparently having fascistic inclinations.

That wasn't Moore who was restricted, but the person who caused Moore's downfall, Atlee Yarrow. Atlee filled Moore's head with flattery and lies and got Moore to do something very, very stupid.

[Luís Henrique]

there are too many reactionary variables in play: The KKK, the tea parties, the nazi parties, white nationalists, republicans, libertarians, etc.

KKK and nazi parties are factors? I don't think so.

But, most importantly, yes, there is something like political reaction in the United States. As there is in any other country. We will have to deal with it.

Luís Henrique

[eric922]

I would say that while Americans aren't better than anyone else it could be argued they are more rebellious. The early writings of the Founders are full of talk of revolution against tyranny, especially Jefferson who said that periodic revolution was "medicine necessary for the sound health of government." Of course he also wanted to crush corporations so we haven't really listened to him all that well.

[Tim Finnegan]

I would say that while Americans aren't better than anyone else it could be argued they are more rebellious. The early writings of the Founders are full of talk of revolution against tyranny, especially Jefferson who said that periodic revolution was "medicine necessary for the sound health of government."
That sort of radical sentiment was just as evident in their European contemporaries, and often a lot more radical. It's that in Europe it was suppressed or demonised by the later bourgeois establishment, who saw it (quite rightly) as feeding socialist, anti-establishment radicalism, while in the US it was appropriated and lionised in the service of the bourgeoisie.

[#FF0000]

Brian Moore

the guy who got booted from the SPUSA and choked on a baby question from Stephen Colbert on national television?

Okay.

[Agent Ducky]

I think with all the tea party and everything, the radicalization will go the wrong way, and anyone who advocates socialism gets attacked because SOCIALISM AND COMMUNISM ARE OBVIOUSLY THE WORST THING EVER. The sad part is, most people believe that.