Does Revleft "work"?

[MarxSchmarx]

There is often a call for leftist unity in an IRL organization that leads nowhere. And it is hard.

But somehow something roughly like that seems to work on Revleft. Why?

Below is my rant related to this point:
One thing that makes this website really amazing and unique is that whether we identify as Hoxhaists, "post-leftist Anarchists", Trots, technocrats, leftcoms, anarcho-syndicalists Maoists etc... etc..., we all find a certain common vocabulary here, find a way to be reasonably civil, and don't attempt to impose our vision on others. There are occasional nasty spats but there is something here for everyone that keeps us coming back and makes enough room for us to advance our common critique of capitalism.

There have been so few such examples in the history of leftism that one wonders what makes the website any more amenable to such ecunemalism in the movement more generally. In practice leftist groups are fragment, isolationist and sectarian, and it could be that only those for a certain tolerance of outside ideologies and a certain willingness to engage those they see as misguided are driven here- a sort of self-selection. It could also be that talk is cheap and that leftist discussion forums are just that - they are not really places where people hone their IRL skills - but the same could be said I'd venture to say for 98% of leftist groups that are really just glorified book clubs (at best) in my experience.

[Rocky Rococo]

I think the extreme diversity of views on the site is its own greatest protection. There's too many different philosophies, currents, groups, nobody can even possibly hope to control the discourse for their own current or faction. There's no point in petty power struggles because nobody can "win" anyway! As a very practical result we're all equals here. Which is a fair to middlin' starting place for a bunch of lefties, don't you think?

[RedScare]

I dunno, the tendency wars here can be pretty viscous....

[zimmerwald1915]

IDK, on here it can't escalate into physical violence. At least not immediately.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i dont mean to be the one to "defaecate upon this parade" but when it comes to real world tendency and orgaizational issues, the place seems to break into clear and obvious lines.

[MarxistMan]

The thing is that many of the people here are from different countries. So it's real hard to physically unite all of us. I live in USA and there is not a revolutionary situation yet. Americans are real smart, and rebellious. Not dumb and apathetic like people think.

The thing is that the economy of USA is not at what Vladimir Lenin called "An objective revolutionary situation" yet. There can't be a popular rebellion if there is not a scientific objective revolutionary situation.

However, just because the US economy is ok right now, it doesn't mean that it will be at a critical situation around the year 2012, 2013 or 2015 or around later in 2020.

When the US economy will get critical you will see the great revolutionary spirit of hard working americans overthrowing the US capitalist government.

.



There is often a call for leftist unity in an IRL organization that leads nowhere. And it is hard.

But somehow something roughly like that seems to work on Revleft. Why?

Below is my rant related to this point:
One thing that makes this website really amazing and unique is that whether we identify as Hoxhaists, "post-leftist Anarchists", Trots, technocrats, leftcoms, anarcho-syndicalists Maoists etc... etc..., we all find a certain common vocabulary here, find a way to be reasonably civil, and don't attempt to impose our vision on others. There are occasional nasty spats but there is something here for everyone that keeps us coming back and makes enough room for us to advance our common critique of capitalism.

There have been so few such examples in the history of leftism that one wonders what makes the website any more amenable to such ecunemalism in the movement more generally. In practice leftist groups are fragment, isolationist and sectarian, and it could be that only those for a certain tolerance of outside ideologies and a certain willingness to engage those they see as misguided are driven here- a sort of self-selection. It could also be that talk is cheap and that leftist discussion forums are just that - they are not really places where people hone their IRL skills - but the same could be said I'd venture to say for 98% of leftist groups that are really just glorified book clubs (at best) in my experience.

[red cat]

In revleft there are many who sympathize with revolutionary struggles irrespective of tendencies, but there are also many who engage mainly in attacking other tendencies and revolutionary movements at all costs, and don't have the least respect for practicing communists.

The reason we see so many posters belonging to different tendencies sympathizing with each other is that they have a revolutionary intent, but are not linked via a common advanced movement in practice. They are ideologically suspended between choosing among the lines they have followed so far and those of the ongoing revolutions.

In general, when class struggle intensifies, genuine revolutionaries from all groups have a chance to implement and refine their theory through practice. So in those situations, after a certain period of time, revolutionary comrades from all the other groups tend to gravitate towards one single group which emerges as the main organization for revolutionary struggle. As the world revolution progresses, comrades from all currents will tend to unite under a common banner and line of action.

[MarxistMan]

Yeah we should all unite, i am anarchist, trotskist, maoist, stalinist, leninist at the same time. I don't care for specific school of socialism as long as we overthrow this system of constant hyperinflation, of expensive food, gas and basic needs or privatized utility services, and real low wages, police abuses, among with many other negative things of capitalism

.



In revleft there are many who sympathize with revolutionary struggles irrespective of tendencies, but there are also many who engage mainly in attacking other tendencies and revolutionary movements at all costs, and don't have the least respect for practicing communists.

The reason we see so many posters belonging to different tendencies sympathizing with each other is that they have a revolutionary intent, but are not linked via a common advanced movement in practice. They are ideologically suspended between choosing among the lines they have followed so far and those of the ongoing revolutions.

In general, when class struggle intensifies, genuine revolutionaries from all groups have a chance to implement and refine their theory through practice. So in those situations, after a certain period of time, revolutionary comrades from all the other groups tend to gravitate towards one single group which emerges as the main organization for revolutionary struggle. As the world revolution progresses, comrades from all currents will tend to unite under a common banner and line of action.

[Savage]

This unity debate comes up often, we seem to never take into account that not all leftist tendencies consider all other leftist tendencies to in fact be leftist, and unity with these groups would be a betrayal of the working class. I think it's naive to reject groups just because of minor differences, but perhaps it is just as naive to call for completely leftist unity, if that in fact means the rejection of basic principles.

[NGNM85]

i dont mean to be the one to "defaecate upon this parade" but when it comes to real world tendency and orgaizational issues, the place seems to break into clear and obvious lines.

Damn straight, it seems like most of what we do is fight. I have no idea where all this unity and cooperation and warm fuzzy shit is supposedly happening.

[red cat]

Yeah we should all unite, i am anarchist, trotskist, maoist, stalinist, leninist at the same time. I don't care for specific school of socialism as long as we overthrow this system of constant hyperinflation, of expensive food, gas and basic needs or privatized utility services, and real low wages, police abuses, among with many other negative things of capitalism

.

I respect your stand, but I think that instead of forcefully merging all the above-mentioned ideologies, we should engage in militant class struggle wherever we are. The correct line can establish itself only through intensified class struggle.

[Ele'ill]

Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place..

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think the important thing for real-world organizations is praxis: being able to put your ideas into practice and in turn having practice inform your ideas. Like Marx famously said, our job is not merely to look at and understand the world, we need to change it. To do that we will often need to divide ourselves into working active groups so we can test our ideas. Revleft works because it is a place to exchange ideas, not act in a concerted and cooperative manner.

I think the left will need more spaces for general debate and discussion in an open and constructive way - I also think that as the left grows we will naturally see more things like that: organizational spaces that are utilized by several different groups for meetings and so on, magazines and websites that don't focus on presenting a specific radical viewpoint, and so on. But it will also need ways to organize along a specific set of ideas in order to produce a concerted effort.

[Mather]

The reason why RevLeft works is that it is a discussion board where anyone who considers themselves a revolutionary leftist, regardless of tendency, can come and talk and debate.


There is often a call for leftist unity in an IRL organization that leads nowhere. And it is hard.

But somehow something roughly like that seems to work on Revleft. Why?

Because a discussion forum and a political organisation are two very different things. There will always be some particular issues and aspects of theory that will divide revolutionary leftists so trying to unite very diverse and sometimes different ideologies into one organisation will result in failure at some point.

I'm all for revolutionary leftists uniting and working on issues we can all agree and co-operate on but even I would be wary of any attempt to merge all the different tendencies into one single organisation. I would even argue that the diversity of the revolutionary left can be a positive thing, as through polemics and debate we continuously improve our own knowledge and at times forced to re-evaluate our own positions and views.

[scarletghoul]

Yeah was gonna say exactly that. A discussion forum is easy to include all sorts of people, but an actual organisation that needs to make decisions and carry them out would be completely different.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

There are lots of debates about organisational strategy and it's rarely people will agree across tendencies (well across authoritarian and libertarian tendencies or stateand anti-state).

But I think, although this is being very inward looking and not conducive, this place does kinda act as group therapy, and I like that. I mean it's annoying that hardly anyone agrees with what we believe and I'm sure for a lot of us there's hardly anyone to talk to about communist ideas who agrees.

[danyboy27]

something should definitively be done to unite our forces in real life, after all its beccause of our divisions that conservative and fascist where able to torn us appart back then.

i think one of the geniune issue is dirrectly linked to the most extreme of the communists, for exemple hardcore leninist and hardcore anarchist dosnt get along verry well.

perhaps the solution that could work would be a collective contract that each group must sign, a mutual respect arrangement that would decrease clashes with other organisation and unite both sides ressources and strenght under a same banner.

[Dean]

One of the values revleft seems to encourage - among members who have the courage to take it on - is the "adjective free" kind of thinkers. This applies to a lot of people who call themselves by specific tendencies, but the important feature is that they are able to openly and dynamically structure their thinking, and how they operate as leftists.

[revolution inaction]

The point of revleft is to argue with each other, so apart from some annoying "anti sectarians" it tends to work.

[scarletghoul]

I would love to see this kind of pan-leftist discussion happening in a post-revolution society IRL, like there could be a revolutionary conference once a week in every town or whatever.

[Ms. Max]

I don't think revleft does much for unity, but as an open forum it is very good at exchanging ideas and information. Although some of the more negative stuff makes me worry how much cointelpro is going on. Also a few folks might tend to spend to much time in a chat room instead of going out and getting involved in things.

[revolution inaction]

I would love to see this kind of pan-leftist discussion happening in a post-revolution society IRL, like there could be a revolutionary conference once a week in every town or whatever.

what, like some kind of historical re-enactment society?

[el_chavista]

RevLeft does its work. It is a sort of e-Iskra so that the different "circle-sects" communicate and, eventually, a wide-world revolutionary reference may arise.

There is no other source of handy ideology for revolutionaries in the whole world. RevLeft is a must have ideological reference for us, thirdworldists.

[bricolage]

I would love to see this kind of pan-leftist discussion happening in a post-revolution society IRL, like there could be a revolutionary conference once a week in every town or whatever.
surely post-revolution we are living in communism so why need to sit around having these arguments? personally I'm gonna be jamming on my hovercraft.

[sanpal]

The site having the heavy weight has more influence and possibility to spread information about left ideas. So it's alright with Revleft in this part. A bit worse with another part namely Revleft has an unique possibility to develop conceptual model of transition of society from capitalism to communism on the international level. Internet gives not to take visa and to buy a two-way ticket on airbus. But it must be organized something like an international scientific conference. I don't know what this conference could look like but some algorithm of carrying out discussions different from forum discussions has to be developed not to fall into senseless rhetoric.

[Red Commissar]

One thing I've found useful about this site, which I hope others have as well, is simply being exposed to information and debates. I can say that before I joined this site my political ideas were scatterbrained and inconsistent. Within a few months of looking at discussions here and getting recommendations for literature and articles, I can certainly say that my political convictions are much more rooted and consistent than it was when I first joined.

Honestly with out this site, the most exposure I would've gotten were a few sites like alternet, occasional reference on wikipedia (which now that I look at it, most of it's Marxist-related articles are an utter mess), and the "Progressives" in my surronding community who aren't really all that radical despite how they paint themselves.

[human strike]

Maybe it's because revleft doesn't as an entity in itself actually attempt to do anything per se.

[pranabjyoti]

Well, actually revleft is also an expression of struggle. Ideological class struggle between petty-bourgeoisie and proletariat. The problem with petty-bourgeoisie ideology and tendency is the matter that it often don't understand its own class character properly and claims itself as "workers ideology" and they represent "workers". But, that's the problem with petty-bourgeoisie itself. It is fluid type of class and not something solid structured like bourgeoisie or proletariat. It mainly follows the inclination and take the shape of the pot in which it stays.
As most of the moderators clearly said that Revleft is under watch from Police authority and therefore any kind of so-called "terrorist" activity or exchange of information or using it as some kind of contact media or meeting place isn't possible. But, Revleft can have other uses too. I want to know how much people in this website are from countries where workers or general people have gained some advantage. How many of the participants in this website are from Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea or Belarus. How many participants are there from Tunisian, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, Sudan or from any part of Arabian speaking countries where movements are gaining momentum. Do anybody here from Nepal or directly related to CPI(Maoist)?
Latin American countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia are struggling, but very few or almost none from those countries are here to discuss their problems with us. There is no North Korean participant in this thread to discuss the real situation there. Revleft can be a good place for meeting and discussion, but still this possibility is neglected very much.

[pranabjyoti]

The site having the heavy weight has more influence and possibility to spread information about left ideas. So it's alright with Revleft in this part. A bit worse with another part namely Revleft has an unique possibility to develop conceptual model of transition of society from capitalism to communism on the international level. Internet gives not to take visa and to buy a two-way ticket on airbus. But it must be organized something like an international scientific conference. I don't know what this conference could look like but some algorithm of carrying out discussions different from forum discussions has to be developed not to fall into senseless rhetoric.
Agree with you basically and I want to add one point. Revleft can also be a place for advancement of science and technology for countries where workers or people have gained some advantage by struggle. Almost all such countries are technologically backward and need new technologies for their own advancements. For that, ideas regarding new technology and product is necessary. Just advancement is sociological theory isn't enough.
Revleft can be a meeting place to exchange experiences and that be a good meaningful use of this website.