hypocrisy from Fascist Iranian government

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12447225

"People in Egypt are protesting to be free!"

"People are protesting here too"

"Quick, get the tear gas and truncheons ... "

[pranabjyoti]

Well, the question is how much we can depend on the US backed opposition of "fascist" Iranian regime.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I wouldn't want to take the side of a religious-chauvinist theocracy (seems pretty "fascist" to me) which tear gasses and shoots its own people. Anyways, you really think this is all just some CIA conspiracy to destabilize Iran? I don't see how being anti-imperialist should make us side with hypocrites and thugs, who have the nerve to laud Egypt's protesters while loading their own into paddywagons.

[pranabjyoti]

CIA have a very good history of destabilizing governments that goes against "US interest". How can you forgot its role in former Yugoslavia and other places of the world? Before supporting the opposition, we have to clearly understand their real role and ideology? In my opinion, anti-US regimes are better than pro-US regimes. I myself don't like the scenario of replacing the anti-US "fascist" regime with a pro-US bustard regime. That would be much more dangerous to Iranian workers and people in general.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

CIA have a very good history of destabilizing governments that goes against "US interest". How can you forgot its role in former Yugoslavia and other places of the world? Before supporting the opposition, we have to clearly understand their real role and ideology? In my opinion, anti-US regimes are better than pro-US regimes. I myself don't like the scenario of replacing the anti-US "fascist" regime with a pro-US bustard regime. That would be much more dangerous to Iranian workers and people in general.

Don't get me wrong, the CIA has a long and storied history of overthrowing governments around the world... Chile, Iran 1956, almost Venezuela in 2002 ... But so do the common people, and we have no reason to believe that these protesters or their organizers are CIA plants :P. No offense, you seem like a smart guy, but I think its a little insulting to the protesters to assume that they are somehow following the whims of a foreign government, simply because their current government is anti-American, or that we should take the side of the people tear-gassing them and shooting them.

As for the fascist nature of the Iranian state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#Notable_i ssues_concerning_human_rights

You can't be a communist, you can't change your religion (unless its to the government approved faith), you can't be gay, there is a large and unaccountable ideological militia/police force ... A more democratic Iran isn't necessarily going to be pro-American, it could easily elect Leftist governments. But it's clear that the current Iranian government tries to constrain its people and dominate their will by targeted execution, harsh social laws, a massive police force and at best only a very limited democracy.

As for Yugoslavia-what are you talking about exactly? It seems that the collapse of Yugoslavia was caused by the death of the great Tito who had managed to slap around the nationalists in the party up until then. But it seems like there were some real horrible human beings in the Yugoslav government with or without CIA intervention.

[Princess Luna]

If the people of Iran brought down the Iranian government , i think it would actually be bad for the U.S. foreign policy because it will help convince people living in U.S. backed dictatorships that its possible to rise up and over throw your oppressive government.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

If the people of Iran brought down the Iranian government , i think it would actually be bad for the U.S. foreign policy because it will help convince people living in U.S. backed dictatorships that its possible to rise up and over throw your oppressive government.

It would also take away a "Scary threat" used by reactionary governments in Saudi Arabia, Israel, and others to control their people or dither on reform.

[Crimson Commissar]

CIA have a very good history of destabilizing governments that goes against "US interest". How can you forgot its role in former Yugoslavia and other places of the world? Before supporting the opposition, we have to clearly understand their real role and ideology? In my opinion, anti-US regimes are better than pro-US regimes. I myself don't like the scenario of replacing the anti-US "fascist" regime with a pro-US bustard regime. That would be much more dangerous to Iranian workers and people in general.
Who said that any of us want a pro-US regime? Being Anti-Iran doesn't automatically mean you're some raving American imperialist fanatic.

[pranabjyoti]

Who said that any of us want a pro-US regime? Being Anti-Iran doesn't automatically mean you're some raving American imperialist fanatic.
I myself too don't like the present Iranian regime, but I don't have any idea about how much we can trust the so-called opposition.

[L.A.P.]

As much as I dislike the theocratic government of Iran, invading a nation to spread democracy is like killing a women to show how much you love her. We should only support a people's uprising against the Iranian government and always oppose a Western invasion of Iran.

[Ocean Seal]

Agreed with 1994. Also I'm not sure if people pointed this out, but Iran is not fascist. It is an autocratic theocracy with defects that abound, but it is not fascist. A popular uprising should be backed, but we should make sure that if the United States or any other imperial power wants to interfere, in the way of setting up their elections or helping :laugh: to maintain security we should make sure to boycott it. The people of Iran can make true revolution, and they will. The time for it is coming.

And to the OP, of course Iran backs a revolution against Egypt, but not against itself. Which country's leaders would back a revolution against them. The United States supported tearing down the Berlin Wall, but most probably wouldn't support an anti-capitalist uprising in the states.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Redbrother-how is Iran not fascist? A theocracy is one thing, but Iran's government is much more than just a theocracy. There's a corporatist alliance between theocratic authorities, revolutionary militias, a pro-government bourgeoise, and an "in group" proletariat, and they use the communal ideologies pushed by the state to justify the imprisonment and often execution of leftists, people who leave Islam, ethnic minorities, religious minorities and homosexuals. Whenever people protest for more rights, the government cracks down on them while accusing them of being "foreign agents". All traits of fascist governments.

Nor have I heard the green movement protesters asking for American intervention or America hosting the elections. What exactly are you talking about?

As for the hypocrisy of the Iranian government ... what's your point? I think America is hypocritical for supporting Mubarak or the occupation of the West Bank while criticizing Iran. The disgusting hypocrisy of America makes Iran's hypocrisy no less despicable.


As much as I dislike the theocratic government of Iran, invading a nation to spread democracy is like killing a women to show how much you love her. We should only support a people's uprising against the Iranian government and always oppose a Western invasion of Iran.

What "Western Invasion" to "spread democracy?" Iraq was invaded, not Iran! These Iranian protesters are domestic protesters.

Anyways, this Green Movement is an "uprising" of Iranian "people". Those aren't CIA agents or US marines in the street, they're Iranian college students. I'm disturbed that people calling themselves socialists would dismiss student protesters killed by the governments as pawns of the CIA! That's trying to pass naive anti-Americanism as serious class analysis.

[pranabjyoti]

Well, US or CIA don't take part in the act directly, but rather want to put some people in their payroll as "opposition".
Actually, the Iranian regime get some legitimacy by the heavy provocation against it by US. Until and unless, US stay away from the scene, the regime will continue to get the legitimacy.
Don't forget that Iran have nuclear weapons and perhaps it's stronger than Iraq in this respect. Iraq was first weakened by prolonged imperialist group and attack and then NATO invaded it. So far, there is no such sign of weakness from Iran and the fate of Iraq awakened a lot more countries and if US attack Iran, probably the scenario would be much different than when it invaded Iraq.

[Blackscare]

Can we all grow up and stop calling everything we don't like fascist? Fascism is a specific thing, and you cheapen the word when you use it to mean everything that is reactionary.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Blackscare-I'm waiting on an argument for why it's not fascist. It seems to have some pretty clear parallels between it and Italy, Chile, Germany, Spain and Portugal during their fascist periods, and none of the major elements of fascism are absent.

*Broad arrest of political dissidents
*Execution of a large number of political dissidents from particular ideologies, in Iran's case (much as in the case of the others) the victims are often communists and ethnic minority liberation groups
*State-backed cultural and social isolation of ethnic, religious, or lifestyle "Other" groups like homosexuals, bahai, "apostates", Sunni muslims, sufi muslims
*Large, unaccountable revolutionary militias (the Basiji, revolutionary guard) used both to police the country and institute foreign policy, as well as distribute propaganda
*Notion of "Collective" based on In-Group status, in this case a particular interpretation of Shiite Islam.
*Blame of most of the country's problems on outside ideological provocateurs
*Use of traditional cultural, national, ethnic or religious tropes which justify one "essentially good" way of life to live in the country and enforce that notion by carrots and sticks (access to social services and collective benefit, vs social and political exclusion)
*Large, economically empowered bourgeoise which commands much of the economy and has many connections with military leadership
*Limited organizing rights for labour forces
*Applied violence vs people who protest for the opposition

Clearly, just a few of these traits alone don't make a government fascist. But all of those are traits of Iran's government. I'm not saying they're irrevocably evil, or that we shouldn't talk to them, or that their government is a threat to democracy, etc. I'm just saying that their State uses policies which are, in many ways, actually fascistic. I don't think that's particularly hyperbolic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudeh#Suppression

[Rafiq]

*Broad arrest of political dissidents
*Execution of a large number of political dissidents from particular ideologies, in Iran's case (much as in the case of the others) the victims are often communists and ethnic minority liberation groups
*State-backed cultural and social isolation of ethnic, religious, or lifestyle "Other" groups like homosexuals, bahai, "apostates", Sunni muslims, sufi muslims
*Large, unaccountable revolutionary militias (the Basiji, revolutionary guard) used both to police the country and institute foreign policy, as well as distribute propaganda
*Notion of "Collective" based on In-Group status, in this case a particular interpretation of Shiite Islam.
*Blame of most of the country's problems on outside ideological provocateurs
*Use of traditional cultural, national, ethnic or religious tropes which justify one "essentially good" way of life to live in the country and enforce that notion by carrots and sticks (access to social services and collective benefit, vs social and political exclusion)
*Large, economically empowered bourgeoise which commands much of the economy and has many connections with military leadership
*Limited organizing rights for labour forces
*Applied violence vs people who protest for the opposition



So the USA up until the 60's was Fascist?

The Iranian regime does have 'Nazi-Style' traits but in theory i owuldn't call them fascists. They're just reactionary theocrats.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

So the USA up until the 60's was Fascist?

The Iranian regime does have 'Nazi-Style' traits but in theory i owuldn't call them fascists. They're just reactionary theocrats.

In the US, those traits often coexisted, but were often unrelated to each other and not part of a singular cohesive, state-sanctioned social force. From the Klan to Joe McCarthy, there were a number of people who may have wanted a state like that, or at least had some tendencies, but they never had a monopoly on power like they do in Iran.

But considering how Khomeini treated his political opponents, and how he raised an obscure hardliner (the current supreme state ayatollah, Khamenei) as his successor instead of an authentic theologian, and how much power the Revolutionary Guard have in Iran, if it used to be a reactionary theocracy, it slid into a fascist theocracy some time ago. Whereas actual Shiite theologians seem to disagree amongst each other on what the Iranian state should do (some are more liberal, some are more socially conscious, some are more conservative), Khamenei and the Revolutionary Guard push for a single, cohesive theological identity and use oppressive state power to silence those who disagree, even within the clerical authorities. If Iran were a strict theocracy, it would in fact be more open, as moderate and less conservative clerics would have more power in the political system.

[Rafiq]

The Iranian regime resembles the Japanese Imperial system much more than it does the Fascist systems in Italy and Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't say they are Fascist, but they are just about as reactionary as the Japanese militarists.

[Mather]

The Iranian regime is a clerical fascist theocracy.

This is of course different in some ways from the classic/orthodox fascist states of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

[gorillafuck]

The Iranian regime resembles the Japanese Imperial system much more than it does the Fascist systems in Italy and Nazi Germany.Iran isn't imperialist.

[Rafiq]

Iran isn't imperialist.

your point?

The government resembles the Japanese Imperial government. Same with laws, ect.

Doesn't mean they had the same foriegn policy.

[gorillafuck]

your point?

The government resembles the Japanese Imperial government. Same with laws, ect.

Doesn't mean they had the same foriegn policy.For one, a pretty clear characteristic of Imperial Japan was that it was imperialist. For two, can you explain how?

[Rafiq]

For one, a pretty clear characteristic of Imperial Japan was that it was imperialist. For two, can you explain how?


It was theocratic, the emperor acted like the 'supreme ruler'. Council of Gaurdians acts like the imperial diet kind of. IJA kind of like IRGC ect ect.

Besides, I am not saying that are that alike, I was just trying to say that the Iranian regime has more characteristics that they had than with Nazi Germany or Mussolinis Italy.

[Tomhet]

Iran is NOT facist.. but don't neglect the fact that Iran militantly oppresses communists..