Irish Republicans burn down taxi office used to sell drugs.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The following leaflet is currently doing the rounds around North Belfast comrades.....

A.M. CAB’S

On February 11th 2011, Volunteers of Óglaigh Na hÉireann (ONH) entered the premises of AM Cab Company on the Oldpark Road with the intentions of closing it down. Before they carried out their actions, they secured the building and ensured that all employees were put at a safe distance, prior to carrying out their Operation.

The Owners’ of this front AM Cabs, ..............and .............are two well-known players in the drugs world. This front was a cover for the distribution of drugs and money laundering of the proceeds of drugs. They had employed several drivers who were the distributors of these dangerous drugs supplied by the two individuals. Having said that, we must make it very clear that not all drivers were involved in this criminal enterprise. To those hard-working drivers, ONH apologise for any hardship that they may have endured as a result of this necessary action!

.......... has been punished twice in the past by our IRA Comrades in the Nineties for the rapes of two local women on separate occasions. Since then, .......... has accumulated a fortune in properties and dubious businesses. While ........... his partner is the criminal brains behind their whole operation. Despite these facts, ............ runs to local Politicians and Newspapers in an attempt to give himself the veneer of respectability. However, the local community are not easily fooled!

This criminal has since fled Ireland and we warn him to stay out of Ireland or we will make him accountable for the death, destruction and misery on the youth and old alike that he has visited upon our working-class republican community. We use this opportunity to tell ..........., that he has 48 hours to leave Ireland. If he defies this order, ONH will make him accountable also!

Signed;
Óglaigh Na hÉireann
(ONH)
North Belfast

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?65529-Two-people-hurt-in-north-Belfast-taxi-rank-arson-attack/page7

[Aurora]

:rolleyes:

inb4 'trendy' wanker

[The Grey Blur]

will the ONH be tackling those drug-dealing fiends and destroyers of working class communities, the GAA clubs/pubs throughout the north? or what about poitín brewers? somehow i doubt it, instead they'll enforce bourgeois and reactionary 'justice', which does nothing to undermine the social phenomenon of drug abuse. this vigilante stuff is embarrassing right-wing populism designed to muscle in on provo 'community' hegemony. it's about as political as wearing a celtic top or singing rebel songs when you're blocked.

but i would say that, being the trendy left wanker i am. :cool:

[khad]

will the ONH be tackling those drug-dealing fiends and destroyers of working class communities, the GAA clubs/pubs throughout the north? or what about poitín brewers? somehow i doubt it, instead they'll enforce bourgeois and reactionary 'justice', which does nothing to undermine the social phenomenon of drug abuse.
While drug abuse is a social phenomenon, the capitalists selling it are not. When the police won't arrest them and in fact protect them, what's a community to do?

[The Grey Blur]

so obviously the same approach should be adopted towards the many republican and nationalist clubs and pubs, who are also "drug-dealing capitalists". but that won't happen because of right-republican double standards. vigilantism isn't the answer, i have no problem with working-class areas self-policing but a self-proclaimed anonymous gang with dodgy politics meting out summary justice? no thanks.

[Fat Cat Killer]

will the ONH be tackling those drug-dealing fiends and destroyers of working class communities, the GAA clubs/pubs throughout the north? or what about poitín brewers? somehow i doubt it, instead they'll enforce bourgeois and reactionary 'justice', which does nothing to undermine the social phenomenon of drug abuse. this vigilante stuff is embarrassing right-wing populism designed to muscle in on provo 'community' hegemony. it's about as political as wearing a celtic top or singing rebel songs when you're blocked.

but i would say that, being the trendy left wanker i am. :cool:

Well tell us oh great and wise one what are you doing to combat drug abuse and addiction within working class areas?
No doubt you would be happy to see these people brought before the establishments courts and receive a slap on the wrist.
Your a sorry excuse for a revolutionary and a trendy wanker.

[empiredestoryer]

its a waste of ira time who should be spending more time killing the british invaders

[Fat Cat Killer]

its a waste of ira time who should be spending more time killing the british invaders

No doubt fighting Imperialism and fighting the symptoms of Capitalist society are high on OnaHS agenda.

The British would be more than happy to see Republican controlled areas become drug infested ghettos, thankfully Republicans will police anti working class crime with an Iron fist.
You wont see to many bank robbers getting a hard time from Republicans.

[Sasha]

Well tell us oh great and wise one what are you doing to combat drug abuse and addiction within working class areas?
No doubt you would be happy to see these people brought before the establishments courts and receive a slap on the wrist.
Your a sorry excuse for a revolutionary and a trendy wanker.


cant speak for grey blur but i for one bussy myself with buidling healthy autonomus communitys, one part of that is the workshops i give on fact based drug-related first aid and "if you do it, do it responsible" drug use...

and i have an inkeling that if it indeed is so that "republican comunitees are overun by drugs" one of the main reasons would be the dire social climate, the lack of possibilities, the rotten defeatist self-victimisation and siege mentallity that by now is furthered way more by the poisinous violent sectarian influence of the vigilante groups than the british "imperialists", its not that criminal behavior, arms dealing, yes even drugdealing is something your admired volunteers never dabled in.

[Fat Cat Killer]

cant speak for grey blur but i for one bussy myself with buidling healthy autonomus communitys, one part of that is the workshops i give on fact based drug-related first aid and "if you do it, do it responsible" drug use...

and i have an inkeling that if it indeed is so that "republican comunitees are overun by drugs" one of the main reasons would be the dire social climate, the lack of possibilities, the rotten defeatist self-victimisation and siege mentallity that by now is furthered way more by the poisinous violent sectarian influence of the vigilante groups than the british "imperialists", its not that criminal behavior, arms dealing, yes even drugdealing is something your admired volunteers never dabled in.

Well what proof can you give us for your extra curricular revolutionary activity? Other than the rantings of a internetz wannabe!
You can hold hands with the Junkies and the dealers all you want maybe talk about your feelings and wank each other off.
Let those who are prepared to risk their lives and liberty get on with their work in stamping out hard drugs from working class areas.

[Sasha]

http://thisdayindisneyhistory.homestead.com/files/record_player_animated.gif

dude, i'm so not going into an dickslinging contest with you, but i'm willing to bet i spend a hell of a lot more time in actions, let alone court and jail over those actions than you, you see, if there is anyone sounding like an "internetz wanabe" its you with all your keyboard warrior hardtalk.

[Fat Cat Killer]

http://thisdayindisneyhistory.homestead.com/files/record_player_animated.gif

dude, i'm so not going into an dickslinging contest with you, but i'm willing to bet i spend a hell of a lot more time in actions, let alone court and jail over those actions than you, you see, if there is anyone sounding like an "internetz wanabe" its you with all your keyboard warrior hardtalk.

Doubt that!

Now away with you and let the adults talk, I'm sure there are plenty of kittens stuck up trees for you to save.

[bcbm]

so where has this policy worked?

[ed miliband]

Does anybody know about the way drug dealing was approached by the Autonomen in Berlin and/or by the Metropolitan Indians in Italy? I hear both groups attempted to clear their communities of heroin dealers, and in Kreuzberg they had some 'Fists Against Needles' initiative? Or maybe Georgy Katsiaficas was making that last bit up because I can't find anything else about it online.

[Salyut]

has been punished twice in the past by our IRA Comrades in the Nineties for the rapes of two local women on separate occasions.

Kneecapped?

Also what drugs are we talking about here? Opiates?

[Apoi_Viitor]

However, there are a few recorded cases in which anarchists enforced their own beliefs with violence; one observer reports incidents in which pimps and drug dealers were shot on the spot. (From the Wikipedia Article on Anarchism in Spain)

Anyways, this reminds me of that Earth Crisis video...

QnlXrTfMx-s

[RedSquare]

Seems like a counter-productive action, leading to more people out of work and possibly entering the same poverty which leads them into a cycle of crime and drug abuse.

It would have been more politically astute for republican organisations to obtain the support of the community, to wage a community based campaign against the pushers.

[the last donut of the night]

http://avatarfarm.com/forum/forumimages/wardisasterthread.jpg

[Sasha]

nah, now pali is banned there isnt going to be much fun anymore, like with fatcat it was like arguing with an brick wall but at least it was an mildly intresting wall with once in a while some orginal graffiti on it, fat cat is just an slab of concrete lads on a night out piss against...

[The Red Next Door]

nah, now pali is banned there isnt going to be much fun anymore, like with fatcat it was like arguing with an brick wall but at least it was an mildly intresting wall with once in a while some orginal graffiti on it, fat cat is just an slab of concrete lads on a night out piss against...

Can I ask you a question, do you smoke crack?

[The Grey Blur]

Can I ask you a question, do you smoke crack?
all the left except marxist-leninists are smoking crack, you guys are missing out.

[Sasha]

nope, couldnt even if i wanted to, around here its all freebase-coke wich is a diffrent (beter) chemical makeup. one of the reason why we in dutch society have far less problems with our junkies proving again that prohibition only produces negative effects

[Os Cangaceiros]

FCK's theme song:

Xcwd_Nz6Zog

:thumbup1:

[gorillafuck]

Fat Cat Killers always calling people trendy or whatever, but really I'm skeptical of hearing what someone who has demonstrated them self to be a misanthrope trying to gain respect through posturing has to say on those who try to discuss things.

[The Red Next Door]

Have you guys ever asking working class people how they feel about this issue?

I am taking about in the ghetto, but i bet all of you are rich then, because let me tell you people like you dumb asses make our job harder.

[gorillafuck]

Have you guys ever asking working class people how they feel about this issue?
I haven't gone out of my way too ask people about their class background and then about their views on vigilantism, but working class people that I know are liberal in their views on drugs.


I am taking about in the ghetto, but i bet all of you are rich then, because let me tell you people like you dumbasses make my job harder.The Black Panthers really liked to hang out and smoke weed. Did you know that? Read Flores Forbes memoirs.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I actually have the working class in my contacts list. They told me they didn't know what the big deal was.

[Ocean Seal]

1. No party member can have narcotics or weed in his possession while doing party work.

2. Any part member found shooting narcotics will be expelled from this party.

3. No party member can be drunk while doing daily party work.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/CaptialismplusdopeBPP.jpg

The Black Panthers weren't fans of drug use, and it was heavily regulated within the society. They weren't perfect but they had strong anti-drug policies.

Poverty levels are generally correlated to drug use, and persecution of minorities is as well. Narcotics are used by the ruling class as a method of dividing the working class, and creating negative stereotypes about the lower stratas of the working class. The left needs to stop defending drug dealers, and drug use in general. It is responsible for much of the strife that the working class has to endure, and in defending drugs we alienate the majority of the proletariat which has to deal directly with this influence. Yes, we need to stop the police from using drugs as an excuse to condemn poor people to jail for disproportionate periods of time, and we need to stop them from bringing kids into a system that they can't get out of because a police record prevents you from living a normal life. The crimes of the police are a serious issue, but so is drug abuse, and the repeated sale of drugs to the poorest stratas of society as a method of keeping them oppressed, and isolating them from other areas of the working class. The working class wants to end this system of oppression, and how can we end it if we are in favor of one of the greatest detriments to society.

[pastradamus]

The Black Panthers weren't fans of drug use, and it was heavily regulated within the society. They weren't perfect but they had strong anti-drug policies.


I think one of the key aspects of the Black Panters Anti-drug policy was that they clearly (and correctly) saw this as potentially becoming a tool of right-wing propaganda (it was attempted by several news sources to brand members of the panters as drug pushers) so making a firm stance against drugs would assist in staving off any right-wing propaganda attempt.

Oglaidh na hEireann on the otherhand....I just dont know to be honest. One day they shoot a drug dealer and the next day I hear reports of individual members being involved in drugs.

[gorillafuck]

The Black Panthers weren't fans of drug use, and it was heavily regulated within the society. They weren't perfect but they had strong anti-drug policies.

We had another chance to hang out and let our hair down the evening following the Free Huey rally. I drank too much and smoked too much weed and stayed up most of the night. The next day we'd have to get back down to business. - Flores A. Forbes, Will You Die With Me? (My Life And The Black Panther Party), page 27

[scarletghoul]

yeah the panthers were officially very anti-drugs although many did do them, and huey newton of course became a hopeless coke head. Dope was pushed onto the black community with the complicity of the US government, as what was essentially chemical warfare, to keep down the people.
On the one hand the panthers were embedded in the lumpenproletariat and tried to get some dealers and pimps on their side, as a kind of ghetto class alliance, and on the other hand they were militantly anti-drugs because they saw the affect it had on the community. So much so that Huey's exile to cuba was motivated in part by the fact that a lot of druglords wanted him dead

I don't know a lot about the irish drug situation or OnH to comment .. but it seems like theyre combining a crude mass line with show of paramilitary force in order to establish themselves as a community authority. will be interesting to see where this leads. If the Irish working class are highly anti-drugs (afaik they are) then this is a good strategy

[Bright Banana Beard]

all the left except marxist-leninists are smoking crack, you guys are missing out.

You mean some Marxist-Leninists because there is many MLs who supported legalizing all drugs(including me). It is unfair to target a tendency.

[Sasha]

Have you guys ever asking working class people how they feel about this issue?

I am taking about in the ghetto, but i bet all of you are rich then, because let me tell you people like you dumb asses make our job harder.

You see, we don't pretend to speak for the whole of the working-class, not in the least because that implies we are outside it instead of part of it. But even worse, It's quite sad when an anarchist needs to explain an Marxist that revolutionary positions need to be science based, not on (reactionary) populist sentiments. If "the working-class" doesn't understand that prohibition doesn't work you should educate them not spend valuable time & resources (why have revolutionarys in jail for this stupid vigelantestuff if you could have them out fighting the real enemy) on reactionary activities.

[The Red Next Door]

I haven't gone out of my way too ask people about their class background and then about their views on vigilantism, but working class people that I know are liberal in their views on drugs.

The Black Panthers really liked to hang out and smoke weed. Did you know that? Read Flores Forbes memoirs.

I have nothing against weed. It just the hard stuff.

[The Red Next Door]

You see, we don't pretend to speak for the whole of the working-class, not in the least because that implies we are outside it instead of part of it. But even worse, It's quite sad when an anarchist needs to explain an Marxist that revolutionary positions need to be science based, not on (reactionary) populist sentiments. If "the working-class" doesn't understand that prohibition doesn't work you should educate them not spend valuable time & resources (why have revolutionarys in jail for this stupid vigelantestuff if you could have them out fighting the real enemy) on reactionary activities.

No, because you are probably not working class, and i do not think many working class people, would want to hang with someone who did the trash.

[The Red Next Door]

all the left except marxist-leninists are smoking crack, you guys are missing out.

I am fine with my wine, beer, and caffeine. Those the types of drugs that would not have me shaking.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The usual dicks on slobbering again.

Is it any wonder real working class people wouldnt give most of you or the movements you are involoved in the time of day.

I'm a proud worker, I'm a proud father, I'm a proud husband. I come from the republican community that this attack happened in.
I have been loosely involved with a group Concerned Families Against Drugs (CFAD) http://cfadardoyne.blogspot.com/
The people in my area support this type of action against death dealers and I find it highly offensive that the trendy wankers on here sit behind their keyboards and lam blast those whop actually physically confront the dealers.
To be honest the feeling is mutual if you had any back bone you would be out attacking the dealers yourselves or organizing the working class in your area against the people who destroy our neighbourhoods.
So in reality there are people on Revleft who support these actions, they are not the ones who post on Chit Chat about their drug fuelled week ends or their depressing lives.
You know who you are.

[Sasha]

I am fine with my wine, beer, and caffeine. Those the types of drugs that would not have me shaking.

beer and wine are healtwise and socially way more damaging drugs than heroin, and i dont want to stereotype the irish but lets face it, if anything ravishes the communities over there, leads to spousal abbuse, crime etc etc its alcohol.

[Sasha]

No, because you are probably not working class, and i do not think many working class people, would want to hang with someone who did the trash.

funny, dont want to blow my prolier than u trumpet but speaking about trash, used to be an binman for 5 years... does that count as working class?

[Lord Testicles]

How did this action bring anyone any closer to socialism and\or bring capitalism any closer to destruction?

[~Spectre]

The usual dicks on slobbering again.

Is it any wonder real working class people wouldnt give most of you or the movements you are involoved in the time of day.

I'm a proud worker, I'm a proud father, I'm a proud husband. I come from the republican community that this attack happened in.
I have been loosely involved with a group Concerned Families Against Drugs (CFAD) http://cfadardoyne.blogspot.com/
The people in my area support this type of action against death dealers and I find it highly offensive that the trendy wankers on here sit behind their keyboards and lam blast those whop actually physically confront the dealers.
To be honest the feeling is mutual if you had any back bone you would be out attacking the dealers yourselves or organizing the working class in your area against the people who destroy our neighbourhoods.
So in reality there are people on Revleft who support these actions, they are not the ones who post on Chit Chat about their drug fuelled week ends or their depressing lives.
You know who you are.

You should really be restricted.

[~Spectre]

I am fine with my wine, beer, and caffeine.


"Poisoner! Pusher! Death Dealer!!!!"

[Fat Cat Killer]

No, because you are probably not working class, and i do not think many working class people, would want to hang with someone who did the trash.

Well said! Only the most degenerate of Lumpen dirt would indulge in that crap.

Forced rehabilitation and execution to the scum who deal!

[Lord Testicles]

Well said! Only the most degenerate of Lumpen dirt would indulge in that crap.

Forced rehabilitation and execution to the scum who deal!

You don't really exist, not in real life.

[Jazzratt]

Well said! Only the most degenerate of Lumpen dirt would indulge in that crap. You wouldn't know class analysis if it was wiping its cock on your curtains. Just because you and your band of thugs take that idiotic, disgusting view doesn't actually mean that it's common to the entire working class.


Forced rehabilitation and execution to the scum who deal! I think people have been unnecessarily polite to you in this thread. This post indicates that, basically, you're a total dicktip and should just fuck off.


I am fine with my wine, beer, and caffeine. Those the types of drugs that would not have me shaking. Look up the term "delerium tremens" it will illustrate to you, I think, how hard you just failed with that statement.

[scarletghoul]

When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet. And again, as far as I know the Irish are generally very anti-drugs.

To be honest I am confused as to why there is so much hostility towards someone taking a militant anti-drugs position. There's bound to be disagreement but really the tone in this thread is awful, its as if the board got invaded by hippies who think that the right to smoke crack is the core of revolutionary struggle..

[pastradamus]

I am fine with my wine, beer, and caffeine. Those the types of drugs that would not have me shaking.

As Jazzrat has stated above; I agree. I have been through the works on the "legal" level I mean and comrade, I have dealt with everything you suggested. For example I was totally addicted to beer (I actually thought I couldnt sleep without a few pints of beer.) and I remember waking up on a few occasions with delirium tremens and I can remember the absolute torture I put everybody close to me through......BUT I aint like that any more!

Im a working class guy, and between trouble and drugs I could have easilly gotton myself into enough trouble to possibly extinguish or mentallly destroyed my life.

I aint going out like that.

[gorillafuck]

No, because you are probably not working class,What's your basis for saying that? Because it's pretty ridiculous considering that psycho is a bouncer. Not exactly a middle class job.

So in reality there are people on Revleft who support these actions, they are not the ones who post on Chit Chat about their drug fuelled week ends or their depressing lives.
You know who you are.Ah, pathetic misanthropy. How could I put myself on a self righteous pedestal and dish out hatred towards humanity without it?

When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet.If that's the card that's gonna be played, look at Grey Blurs location. By that line of thinking then he can speak more authoritatively about Northern Ireland than all the British Maoists combined.


So in reality there are people on Revleft who support these actions, they are not the ones who post on Chit Chat about their drug fuelled week ends or their depressing lives.And to come back to this, for the record, the people who support this stuff are the exact same people who post about doing drugs and getting drunk in chit chat.

[bcbm]

Well said! Only the most degenerate of Lumpen dirt would indulge in that crap.

i had a roommate who was working 60 hour weeks as a cook at two restaurants while dealing with a heroin addiction.



When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet.

and the community opinion is always the correct one?

[black magick hustla]

The usual dicks on slobbering again.

Is it any wonder real working class people wouldnt give most of you or the movements you are involoved in the time of day.

I'm a proud worker, I'm a proud father, I'm a proud husband. I come from the republican community that this attack happened in.
I have been loosely involved with a group Concerned Families Against Drugs (CFAD) http://cfadardoyne.blogspot.com/
The people in my area support this type of action against death dealers and I find it highly offensive that the trendy wankers on here sit behind their keyboards and lam blast those whop actually physically confront the dealers.
To be honest the feeling is mutual if you had any back bone you would be out attacking the dealers yourselves or organizing the working class in your area against the people who destroy our neighbourhoods.
So in reality there are people on Revleft who support these actions, they are not the ones who post on Chit Chat about their drug fuelled week ends or their depressing lives.
You know who you are.
we get it you are old and boring

[Aurora]

When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet. And again, as far as I know the Irish are generally very anti-drugs.
I really dislike this type of argument, we saw this with a bunch of threads about Nepal, India and many other countries, it's not the job of communists to just accept the opinion of anyone who happens to live in a place, the communists are meant to push forward the interests of the working class as a whole. I'd actually like to hear your opinion of acts like this and please don't tail FCK just because he lives there.

And to speak of an entire nation holding any one position is dangerous, it just builds illusions in a national 'good' or 'unity'. The working class isn't even an homogenous group either, it has no united position on drugs as this thread shows, the point is not whether workers hold a certain position but whether that position is beneficial to the working class.

As a little anecdote a couple years ago i was doing political work in a working class estate about 7 or 8 minutes up the road from me where a drug dealer lived and there was a drugs problem, while going door to door i was happily surprised that almost everyone i talked too about it understood that drug use was a social problem and they told me that the reason there was an increase in drug use and vandalism coincided with the closing of the local sporting facilities and that now there was nothing else for the youth who lived there to do.

[Lord Testicles]

When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet. And again, as far as I know the Irish are generally very anti-drugs.

As far as I know the British are very anti-immigrant, doesn't make it right.


To be honest I am confused as to why there is so much hostility towards someone taking a militant anti-drugs position.

Because the war on drugs ruins enough peoples lives without some machismo dickheads running around executing people because they are trying to get by.


There's bound to be disagreement but really the tone in this thread is awful, its as if the board got invaded by hippies who think that the right to smoke crack is the core of revolutionary struggle..

Point me out one instance in this thread where someone has even suggested that the right to smoke crack is the core of revolutionary struggle.

[scarletghoul]

and the community opinion is always the correct one?
When did I say it was correct ? I have not stated my opinion on drugs in this thread; its really not the point.

If that's the card that's gonna be played, look at Grey Blurs location. By that line of thinking then he can speak more authoritatively about Northern Ireland than all the British Maoists combined.
Indeed. When it comes to the facts obviously someone who lives there will have a better idea than someone who doesn't. Whether or not they evaluate those facts correctly is another matter. The debate in this thread was mostly a factual debate over whether or not a certain working class community was really that anti-drugs.

(havent got time to respond to every post but in general the points here also address them)

[The Grey Blur]

When it comes to the opinion of a community I am more inclined the believe FCK who apparently comes from that community than some other people on the internet. And again, as far as I know the Irish are generally very anti-drugs.

To be honest I am confused as to why there is so much hostility towards someone taking a militant anti-drugs position. There's bound to be disagreement but really the tone in this thread is awful, its as if the board got invaded by hippies who think that the right to smoke crack is the core of revolutionary struggle..

i'm from west belfast, a strong working-class republican area. like ardoyne there are serious problems with drug abuse and teen suicide. i would say there is a degree of populist support for punishment beatings and summary justice in these communities, but that is a legacy of the lawlessness and socio-economic devastation wrought by british occupation and the troubles. in effect many working people do see it as a choice between an IRA off-shoot or the PSNI/RUC with a history permeated by sectarianism but the role of socialist republicans isn't to tail-end populist working-class attitudes (whether that's on drugs, sexuality, etc) but to lead. i don't mean that in some elitist 'the vanguard will lead the people' way but in the attitudes we display in our everyday lives as well as how we organise politically as part of a broader pro-working-class, pro-democracy political movement.

the ONH tactics are a return to the failed guerilla tactics of the provos and INLA. it's time to organise openly and democratically for a worker's republic- tackling the massive unemployment rate in these areas is the way to undermine anti-social elements and behaviour, not a reactive policy of vigilantism which puts entirely innocent people (including addicts) in harm's way. we should also point out the hypocrisy of those who are anti-drugs yet fine with alcohol which causes so many problems (domestic abuse, alcoholism, etc) in these communities, we should insist on a reasoned debate around drug use and not a reactionary demonisation of recreational drug users or addicts. the legalisation of drugs and the struggle for social justice and the elimination of capitalist alienation is the way to undermine wrongheaded or destructive drug use (whether alcohol, prescription drugs, illegal narcotics) as well as the drugs trade and anti-social elements involved in it. essentially, you either take a scientific, compassionate and rational perspective compatible with a marxist/libertarian worldview or you fall into the camp of bourgeois lawmakers, daily-mail hysteria and reactionary religious fundamentalists. if republicanism is to be a serious left-wing and liberationary force in ireland then it has to enter the 21st century in terms of its attitudes to crime and punishment. this is not being a 'trendy wanker' or softhearted liberalism, it's a cool rational analysis (backed by the last 50 years or so of social/hard science research) of what motivates criminal behaviour, how to tackle it in a scientific and democratic manner (emphasising rehabilitation and de-criminalisation of drugs, instituting democratic organs of mass working-class justice in the manner of the soviets or revolutionary spain or even revolutionary ireland) and how to undermine the conditions that give rise to those motivations in the first place.

http://irsm.org/history/struggle.html - this article gives a history of the unemployed struggles of the communist party in west belfast in the 1930s which brought dozens of thousands of workers (catholics and protestants) onto the streets. this is the sort of thing we should be trying to emulate, not cheerleading reactive unaccountable populist summary justice carried out by a group with a self-destructive political aim (their press releases have made it clear that they want to see the british army on the streets again) and shit social attitudes.

[gorillafuck]

Whether or not they evaluate those facts correctly is another matter. The debate in this thread was mostly a factual debate over whether or not a certain working class community was really that anti-drugs.Then why is FCK more trustworthy on Northern Ireland issues than Grey Blur? Especially considering that Grey Blur has consistently put forth rational analysis and arguments whereas FCK has consistently put forward no actual analysis and merely tries to sound like a hardass, and backs it up by mocking drug addicts.

I'm not even pro-legalization for all drugs (I certainly don't think that workers councils should be able to make and distribute crystal meth and heroin, though I believe in decriminalization for practical purposes). But FCK is a fucking whackjob.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Maybe we should try and understand the OPs perspective as a working class person from Ireland? I don't agree with many of his views personally, but I understand the qualms that many working class people have with regards to drugs in their communities. The town I live in has a terrible heroin problem, and the community has many qualms with this. Many working people I know would echo support for the activity of these republicans in NI, and I'd say that a common view held by working people is that drug dealers bring damage to their communities and are an enemy.

What we should be doing is putting forward alternative ideas. I don't think blowing up a taxi rank that deals drugs is going to curb the problem, the problems go far further than that, but it is true that high end drug dealers are enemies of the working class due to their place in the socio-economic framework. They are the bourgeoisie; they deal drugs to poor people, who have not the support systems in place that they need to be able to use drugs responsibly, and therefore aid a whole world of social problems that potentially divide the working class and cause misery for many people.

I've used drugs myself, many times (I don't anymore), and I feel lucky that I was educated enough to use them without bringing myself to harm and ending up in terrible conditions, like drug addicts do. These people are un-educated, ignorant and desperate, and the high end drug dealers are in fact part of the framework that makes their life a misery.

Is burning down a drug dealership the answer? Probably not, but I can fully understand why it happened and why many people in working class communities would sympathize with it.

[Goatpie]

Wish we has these down south all the "IRA" down here are the drug dealers :/

[The Grey Blur]

an assumed drug dealership. a claim which (unsurprisingly) the owner and several others in the community reject: http://www.belfastmedia.com/home_article.php?ID=2315

my take on it is that most likely certain taxi drivers were independently supplying drugs/alcohol, rather than some concerted criminal master plan. the real issue is why work is inexistent in these communities, and that what is available is so casual and poorly-paid that dealing drugs to supplement your wages seems to be a rational choice for some.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

an assumed drug dealership. a claim which (unsurprisingly) the owner and several others in the community reject: http://www.belfastmedia.com/home_article.php?ID=2315

my take on it is that most likely certain taxi drivers were independently supplying drugs/alcohol, rather than some concerted criminal master plan. the real issue is why work is inexistent in these communities, and that what is available is so casual and poorly-paid that dealing drugs to supplement your wages seems to be a rational choice for some.
I've heard as well that the taxi rank was putting some republican taxi ranks out of businesses too, from some people in NI. Dunno whether there's any weight to that.

[khad]

If I were a drug kingpin protected by the cops, I'd deny it too.

[the last donut of the night]

this thread really makes me wanna light up a very, very fat blunt

[The Grey Blur]

I've heard as well that the taxi rank was putting some republican taxi ranks out of businesses too, from some people in NI. Dunno whether there's any weight to that.
well the 'republican' taxis are the black taxis which run a set route like busses, this was a private firm. there's a certain crossover in their clientele but they're not really the same service so not really in competition with each other.


If I were a drug kingpin protected by the cops, I'd deny it too

"A young barber who uses a room in the businessman’s Oldpark premises was also warned to shut up shop...Ciaran Donnelly, who rents the space for his barbers off Mr Morgan, was only made aware of the threat against him through another party. The 21-year old had only been open for business three days. He also said he has no idea why his shop has been threatened."

do you reckon this nefarious character was part of the drugs ring too? :rolleyes: barbers and pizza-boys, enemies of the revolution.

[khad]

"A young barber who uses a room in the businessman’s Oldpark premises was also warned to shut up shop...Ciaran Donnelly, who rents the space for his barbers off Mr Morgan, was only made aware of the threat against him through another party. The 21-year old had only been open for business three days. He also said he has no idea why his shop has been threatened."
do you reckon this nefarious character was part of the drugs ring too? :rolleyes: barbers and pizza-boys, enemies of the revolution.When your landlord is a drug dealer, that's the way it goes


well the 'republican' taxis are the black taxis which run a set route like busses, this was a private firm. there's a certain crossover in their clientele but they're not really the same service so not really in competition with each other.
More on this from another forum:


the above 'taxi company' was only opened about 16 months, while the other depots have been well-established for years, some more than a decade. Therefore, why would the attack have anything to do with bad feeling?

I know the other depot owners very well and all of them wouldn't need to be 'involved' in something like this especially given that their own depots are fairly financially secure and have a very loyal clientele etc...

Obviously ONH wouldn't have took action without evidence......Regards getting rid of the scum - well, lets look at the facts here. ONH seem to be doing their upmost to make these thugs accountable and the local community are very happy about that chara.
Ardoyne is a hive for hoods now. I cant wait to sell my house and move as far away as possible. Its a dive for druggies and hood's and all the clubs are full of coke head's. Very sad indeed, when i was growing up , it was a great wee community to live in even thou we had our trouble with the brits and loyalist but we all felt together sadly its a shithole. Ive had drug dealers openly tell my son infront of me that the working man is a fool and that he shoul dcome and work for him. |Im really afraid that he will fall into that life and end up hanging himself when he get's in to deep and falls into debt with these thug's. Something has to be done about these bastards. I know cfad are doing a good job but to be honest a lot of these scum need shot dead, starting from the top.
I recently stood up to a gang of youths firing bottles about where kids play. And for my penance my sister had a smoke bomb put through her letter box. The cops as much as told me it was my fault for confronting them and none of the neighbor's backed me up at the time.
It's not drugs or drink that's the problem they've always been there and always will be. Its the acceptance of people using them that's changed.
You walk into any supermarket now for a family shop and there's bound to be aisle after aisle of alcohol seen where kids shop. You walk into any pub or party at the weekend I bet all of ya's could name at least one person who's taking hard drugs.

What business would or could survive if it had no customers?

The real way to get rid of these dealers once and for all is to prevent them from getting any custom. Change attitudes about drink and drugs, stop making them so socially acceptable in the home. It's not just hoods at this, its parents and family members too.
Did fat boy and his ugly wife not make there money from dealing death to kids in the district??

Do you think im zipped up the back... HE AND HIS WIFE ARE DRUG DEALERS. Thats why he has a body guard as a few posters on this forum know..
Joe Prole man on the street voices right there.

You don't really exist, not in real life.
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/oc_images/images/smilies/screwy.gif

[The Red Next Door]

yeah exactly. the people who attacked them just made their lives a lot harder. good fucken job

I don't give a fuck, about the victims like you?

[Communist Pear]

Surely this will help make sure that the horrible victims of these drug dealers get off their drugs instead of just finding new drug dealers and off course the taxi drivers operating from this depot will have no trouble at all finding a new job in a country with one of the worst economies in Europe. I don't see ANY way in which this is actual beneficial for anyone except those that want to prosecute revolutionaries.

Also, in after shitstorm.

[Fat Cat Killer]

this thread really makes me wanna light up a very, very fat blunt

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.

[gorillafuck]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.Woah.

dude.

I must have been reading that post for like 10 minutes.

then I looked at the clock.

it had been one minute.

woah.

[bcbm]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.

this is way out of line. people overdosing isn't a joke it isn't funny it isn't something you should wish on anyone. you want to talk about disgrace, take a look in the mirror you're wishing fucking death on people for disagreeing with your moralist and completely failed (seriously, where has prohibition worked? what communities are better because of armed vigilantes? i'd like to know) stance on drugs.

[StalinFanboy]

Have you guys ever asking working class people how they feel about this issue?

I am taking about in the ghetto, but i bet all of you are rich then, because let me tell you people like you dumb asses make our job harder.

There are a lot of working class people that are racist and sexist and homophobic as shit. Some loooooove capitalism.

Is all that fine now, because the Holy Working Class said so?

Fuck off

[StalinFanboy]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.

Can we please ban this dumbfuck?

[Robocommie]

I'd probably find it a lot easier to support Fat Cat Killer's views on the subject if he didn't come off as so unbearably holier-than-thou, ceaselessly belligerent, and seriously up himself. "Proud worker, proud father, proud husband" As if you're the only one with a job, kids and a wife? As if it in any way makes you more correct on anything?

I personally think heroin and cocaine are serious problems facing society and a scourge on the working class, but it's really hard to keep my lunch down in the face of someone who is so incredibly intent on shoving just how working class and hardcore he is up everyone else's ass.

[bcbm]

i've seen what heroin can do first hand and i don't think people should be getting shot, i think it should be subject to regulations and a lot more energy invested into helping people who are suffering addictions use it in a safe way and help them kick it if they want to

[Robocommie]

i've seen what heroin can do first hand and i don't think people should be getting shot, i think it should be subject to regulations and a lot more energy invested into helping people who are suffering addictions use it in a safe way and help them kick it if they want to

I've long been a believer in treatment and prevention as opposed to punishment, but that's on the side of drug abusers. Drug dealers, I'm not so sure of. Frankly, I always thought that one of the basic principles of Marxism was the understanding that simply punishing people harshly isn't going to solve social issues because social issues are structural. They aren't moral, it's not a question about people being good or bad, it's about people pursuing their interests. You're always going to get people who are willing to sell drugs no matter how much horror you pour out onto them because the truth is, the profit margin for illegal drugs is staggering.

I'm not saying this in sympathy to drug dealers but simply stating cold hard economics. The real answer I think, has to be to remove the reason that people seek out opiates, the soulless conditions, the sigh of the oppressed creature, and the market shrivels up. Everything else is just going to be fighting symptoms. The catch-22 of course, is that drug abuse in fact contributes markedly to those soulless conditions.

[bcbm]

I've long been a believer in treatment and prevention as opposed to punishment, but that's on the side of drug abusers. Drug dealers, I'm not so sure of. Frankly, I always thought that one of the basic principles of Marxism was the understanding that simply punishing people harshly isn't going to solve social issues because social issues are structural. They aren't moral, it's not a question about people being good or bad, it's about people pursuing their interests. You're always going to get people who are willing to sell drugs no matter how much horror you pour out onto them because the truth is, the profit margin for illegal drugs is staggering.

decriminalize them or hell, legalize the shit. i think most users would probably prefer to get heroin where they know where it comes from, what the strength is, etc than some crap sold to them by shady fuckers that could contain anything and be any strength. that would certainly do a good deal of damage to the illegal dealers. combine this with programs to ensure safe usage and provide lots of help to get people off of it and i think that would be on the road to a much more sensible drug policy.


The real answer I think, has to be to remove the reason that people seek out opiates, the soulless conditions, the sigh of the oppressed creature, and the market shrivels up. Everything else is just going to be fighting symptoms. The catch-22 of course, is that drug abuse in fact contributes markedly to those soulless conditions.i think people will always use drugs, even opiates, but there is no reason why the impact on the rest of society cannot be severely decreased. there are people now who are regular heroin users (usually in the process of weaning but not always) but are not "criminal junkies" or w/e the stereotype is, but just regular people going about their lives. this should be made possible for more users.

[Soldier of life]

I'm actually embarrassed by Irish 'republicans' on this website. At least they are not representative of socialist republicanism.

If you don't get a hard on reading these types of threads then you are a 'trendy wanker' :laugh:

[The Red Next Door]

There are a lot of working class people that are racist and sexist and homophobic as shit. Some loooooove capitalism.

Is all that fine now, because the Holy Working Class said so?

Fuck off

I have a dad, who is a religious conservative and he working class.

Been there and Know that, there a fucking right winger right across the street from my friend's house.

You fuck off.

[The Red Next Door]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.


He not such a bad guy, he alright.

[black magick hustla]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.

you think you are so strong huh,. one of my friends who was miserable almost succeeded in killing herselfwith pills and i've heard of another kid who is miserable and plans to do something similar. you are a disgrace not to class but to humanity and human decency you stalinist piece of shit

[the last donut of the night]

I hope you OD on something harder, your a disgrace to your class.

http://i27.tinypic.com/nm0phf.jpg

i think i'll just leave this here

[the last donut of the night]

i'd also like to let know everyone in this thread i repped fat cat killer for his glorious proletarian exposition on how i, a clear comprador bourgeois scum teenager, should die, so that on the ashes of my exploiter bones a most heroic socialist fatherland can rise up and rid the world of evil EVUL!!! drugs.

[khad]

^Your histrionics are just as bad as his.

[Crux]

Just a query, Fat Cat, I see you are as reactionary as ever, but apparently now you're an "independent communist republican"? The Worker's Party threw you out?

[the last donut of the night]

^Your histrionics are just as bad as his.

lol

[fionntan]

Im going to have to add to this as FCK has said the man in question is a drug dealer i live beside the place the community knew that poision was being sold to there children from the taxi company. Hence it getting burnt. I for one am glade its gone. And im also glade that the owner and his partner got 48 hours to leave Ireland or face community justice. As for Soldier Of Life butting in what would the INLA of done stuck him and his mates down man holes for 7 hours to think about what they done. Because that is what they do to young men in Ardoyne ..

[Salyut]

Would smoking a joint in a Republican area result in hot drill-on-kneecap action?

I'm actually legitimately curious about this.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Haha. FCK.

LOL

[The Red Next Door]

Im going to have to add to this as FCK has said the man in question is a drug dealer i live beside the place the community knew that poision was being sold to there children from the taxi company. Hence it getting burnt. I for one am glade its gone. And im also glade that the owner and his partner got 48 hours to leave Ireland or face community justice. As for Soldier Of Life butting in what would the INLA of done stuck him and his mates down man holes for 7 hours to think about what they done. Because that is what they do to young men in Ardoyne ..

We need the same action from people from the African American community.

[Jazzratt]

I for one am glade its gone. And im also glade that the owner and his partner got 48 hours to leave Ireland or face community justice. I'm morbidly curious as to what this type of "justice" consists of - is it something carried out by people with a level of accountability that have, at the very least, pretensions of due process and a fair hearing or is it, as I suspect it might be, an attack by thugs filling the role of a less fettered bourgeois state. It's the attitudes espoused by certain fuckwits in this thread that sees the homes of paediatricians burnt down, after all.

[Sam_b]

FCK you should have a word with these guys over this. Run out of ammo to shoot people's genetalia off? Nothing available to kneecap anyone? Christ, you guys are being soft. What will the class think of you?

[The Red Next Door]

exactly, it really doesnt.

coming from a heroin addicted college student who works about 20 hours a week, i can assure you that the only difficulty junkies face is the "war on drugs" that is in reality just an attack on the downtrodden of society. if it weren't for prohibition and all the problems associated with copping, i would have been leading a perfectly normal life. dickheads like the threadstarter just enforce the stigma and the problems we addicts face. in fact, most people who know me wouldnt believe that i was addicted to heroin just because of how well i have my shit together. the only real problem i have is the legality of it, the outrageous of money i pay for it, and the inability to tell the potency just cuz of the nature of street dope (3 problems that would be non-existent in a fair and just society). if you look at addicts who are lucky enough to be given pharmaceutical heroin by the state as a form of maintenance (also methadone and buprenorphine), trust me they are doing just fine

do us a favopr and instead of attacking those who are just by-products of the rotten system in the first place, work on the real issues that ordinary people face

the government has no right to tell me what i can and cannot put in my body so next time you tell me we addicts are rotten piece of shit lumpenproletariats just do us a favor and fuck off


Bullshit, i do not see how a junkie can be functional. You need to stop, I wonder what your fucking mother says, you do not know you kill her by fucking your self up like that.

[Jazzratt]

Bullshit, i do not see how a junkie can be functional. I don't know about "functional" but there are a large number of drug users and addicts that have proven themselves to be geniuses from Aldous Huxley and Hunter S Thompson to Oscar Wilde and Benjamin Franklin. If you can't imagine how a junkie can be functional it's probably because your circumstances have sheltered you from them and you only know about them from second hand sources.


You need to stop, I wonder what your fucking mother says, you do not know you kill her by fucking your self up like that. It's likely that stopping would prove an advantage to his long term health but it's not really your place to admonish him or make assumptions about his family.

[Crux]

I wonder if the republican war on drugs is as successful as the Republican War On Drugs.

[khad]

I wonder if the republican war on drugs is as successful as the Republican War On Drugs.
Depends where. Compared to Belfast, the republican stronghold of south armagh has a very small drugs problem. In Derry RAAD has been making concrete progress.

The success of republican anti-drugs action is directly proportional to the amount of power republican action groups have in the community, but that's common sense. From the sense I get, people on Ardoyne are quite scared of reprisals from dealers and their gangs. Otherwise they would be calling for an immediate settling of accounts. As others have noted, Fat Cat Killer, for all his brashness and impudence, represents for better or for worse a very pervasive community sentiment. What they experience every day is these black market capitalists rubbing the working class's faces in their misery, breaking up their families and plunging them into further poverty. Groups like CFAD with broad community membership do conduct raids on known drug houses and try to drive them out by naming and shaming, but by all accounts they are not able to directly target the big players for fear of retaliation. That's when the armed volunteers are called lin. Like it or not, these are honest community demands.

I do like how some on this forum extol the virtues of community, but the moment that these demands take on a "violent" character, they recoil in shock and horror and retreat to pontificating about a mythical working class that can never be so "barbaric" as to attack the black market capitalists they rightfully regard as enemies. It may not do much in the long run, and I don't have any illusions about the declining strength of republicans in Ardoyne, but in my book it's something more in touch with the community than all the self-righteous pontification various sectarian backbiters can muster.

Just because those of your sect have never participated in a successful social movement doesn't mean that you have to knock everyone else's.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't know about "functional" but there are a large number of drug users and addicts that have proven themselves to be geniuses from Aldous Huxley and Hunter S Thompson to Oscar Wilde and Benjamin Franklin. If you can't imagine how a junkie can be functional it's probably because your circumstances have sheltered you from them and you only know about them from second hand sources.

It's likely that stopping would prove an advantage to his long term health but it's not really your place to admonish him or make assumptions about his family.

Yeah, it not place to get him not to have himself lying a fucking caseket and his mother blowing her brains for not paying attention to his ass

fucking white people.

[Crux]

Just because those of your sect have never participated in a successful social movement doesn't mean that you have to knock everyone else's.
Spoken like a clueless tailer of nationalists. I could make you quite a long list of thing's but that would be giving your provocation more credibility than it deserves.

[Crux]

Yeah, it not place to get him not to have himself lying a fucking caseket and his mother blowing her brains for not paying attention to his ass

fucking white people.
Heroin is bad, your reasoning is worse. So, to pick up on a line of argument brought forward early in this thread, what is your stance on the prohibition of alcohol? Given your reasoning anything other than a strong pro-prohibition position would make you hypocrite. Or do you think alcohol does not kill?

[khad]

Spoken like a clueless tailer of nationalists. I could make you quite a long list of thing's but that would be giving your provocation more credibility than it deserves.
Making lists, writing papers, it's good to cater to one's strengths, no?

[~Spectre]

While drug abuse is a social phenomenon, the capitalists selling it are not.

The U.S. has long since eclipsed everyone else in jailing these people up in large quantities. It's not working.

There's no real limit to the drug dealers. If you're not convinced, take a glance at Mexico.

The rival Mexican drug cartels make the IRA vigilantes look like total hippie pacifists. There's still no end in sight to the drug dealers and thugs willing to take up the cause of the cartels.


what's a community to do?

Speaking of. I think phrasing the question this way isn't that useful. This isn't the community taking action. It's members of a community. Other members of the community (chemically addicted though they may be) apparently have a different opinion of the drug use.

More accurately then, what are certain members of a community supposed to do when other members of that community supply a demand for drugs?

I don't see how any Marxist answer to that can involve this type of vigilantism.

[~Spectre]

Depends where. Compared to Belfast, the republican stronghold of south armagh has a very small drugs problem. In Derry RAAD has been making concrete progress.

The success of republican anti-drugs action is directly proportional to the amount of power republican action groups have in the community, but that's common sense.

Even assuming that's true, that wouldn't nearly tell the whole story.

You'd need actual data on these communities. If there's any increased anti-drug efficacy in these republican communities, it may very well be that the same conditions that make a community sympathetic to republican groups, tends to make the average individual less likely to fall to drug addiction.

The data we do have globally, seems to indicate that the most effective way to counter addiction and consumption of drugs, is education and rehabilitation. Everything else is usually a far distant second.

[khad]

The U.S. has long since eclipsed everyone else in jailing these people up in large quantities. It's not working.
And it also supplied drugs to ravage black communities, and incarceration was used as a tool in this campaign. The black panthers had a rightfully tough stance on this. Community self-policing is something completely different, as it does not involve state corrections and attempts to pull a community together against threats.


Speaking of. I think phrasing the question this way isn't that useful. This isn't the community taking action. It's members of a community. Other members of the community (chemically addicted though they may be) apparently have a different opinion of the drug use.

More accurately then, what are certain members of a community supposed to do when other members of that community supply a demand for drugs?Believe me, users of hard drugs in a place as overrun as Ardonye are still not in the majority. But the black market and the trade does enough damage as it is. Given the bleak options, and an official police that would sooner blame the community for trying to stand up to dealers, I would not be so liberal as to prioritize the wants of that demographic over the needs of the community. This is especially true as PSNI lets the drug trade run amok as a way to impoverish and control republican communities.

I don't see how any Marxist answer to that can involve this type of vigilantism.Marx would have answered in a dialectical way. For instance, he supported the Indian War of Independence, despite all the violence it entailed and despite the fact that it was technically a Mughal restorationist movement. He could see that it could lead to something greater. Searching for the perfect "marxist" solutions to every problem would have Marx rising from the grave to smack you in the head.

[Jazzratt]

Yeah, it not place to get him not to have himself lying a fucking caseket and his mother blowing her brains for not paying attention to his ass

fucking white people. You're not even trying to create a reasonable argument. I could say that your views on drugs are outmoded anti-science but that would be an insult to fucking phrenologists.

[khad]

The data we do have globally, seems to indicate that the most effective way to counter addiction and consumption of drugs, is education and rehabilitation. Everything else is usually a far distant second.
You visit Ardoyne and tell the man who was threatened by drug gangs with bombs in his mailbox that the solution is "education and rehabilitation."

Of course the long-term solution is education and rehabilitation, but do you honestly think that is feasible given how little resources working class republicans have with the threats that they're facing on a day-to-day basis?

I've always had the position that given the resources you can do both - immediate justice as well as long-term rehabilitation. Treat the symptoms and the disease. Treat just the symptoms, and your patient might die eventually. Treat just the disease, and your patient might just die of fever before he makes it to recovery.

[~Spectre]

And it also supplied drugs to ravage black communities, and incarceration was used as a tool in this campaign. The black panthers had a rightfully tough stance on this. Community self-policing is something completely different, as it does not involve state corrections and attempts to pull a community together against threats.


The U.S. drug war is certainly a war against the poor. Put the point with that example is that drug dealers are still rounded up at jaw dropping rates, but they keep popping out.

But even if we say that you're right about that dinstinction, then fine. What about the Mexico example? No matter how organized these communities are, they won't have the same man power as these billion dollar per year Mexican cartels. Cartels that are entirely cutthroat, and have access to enforcers with special forces training. The violence unleashed on other drug dealers dwarfs anything done in either the U.S. or Ireland, but Mexico still has a flood of drug dealers and people who work in the industry.

I do agree with you however that pulling the community together against drug addiction is very important. I just don't see why that isn't better done with education programs and rehabilitation. That seems to be more effective, and deals with causes rather than symptoms.



Believe me, users of hard drugs in a place as overrun as Ardonye are still not in the majority. But the black market and the trade does enough damage as it is. Given the bleak options, and an official police that would sooner blame the community for trying to stand up to dealers, I would not be so liberal as to prioritize the wants of that demographic over the needs of the community. This is especially true as PSNI lets the drug trade run amok as a way to impoverish and control republican communities.

Certainly it can be very damaging. But certain measures can make things worse. If a community will continue to produce that demographic, I think we have good evidence that the suppliers will still come. Sometimes you have to minimize damage, through programs like clean needle swaps, etc, while fighting underlying causes. Armed conflict might lead to escalation, which will severely impoverish these communities.

Industries dry up when demand dries up. That's what I suggest, attack demand. What this is attempting to attack is supply. I would not be so conservative as to employ supply-side economics to solve the problems of the working class.



Marx would have answered in a dialectical way. For instance, he supported the Indian War of Independence, despite all the violence it entailed and despite the fact that it was technically a Mughal restorationist movement. He could see that it could lead to something greater. Searching for the perfect "marxist" solutions to every problem would have Marx rising from the grave to smack you in the head.

I think Rosa would disagree violently about his dialectical answer. The point though isn't what Marx himself literally would've said (who knows). But rather, what a materialist, class based analysis of these problems would bring us too. That's not making the perfect the enemy of the good. That's simply trying to be somewhat consistent. This solution seems to be in total clash with Marxist analysis.

[Crux]

You visit Ardoyne and tell the man who was threatened by drug gangs with bombs in his mailbox that the solution is "education and rehabilitation."

Of course the long-term solution is education and rehabilitation, but do you honestly think that is feasible given how little resources working class republicans have with the threats that they're facing on a day-to-day basis?

Of course it's not feasible, because ONH offers no way out and no way forward.

[khad]

Certainly it can be very damaging. But certain measures can make things worse. If a community will continue to produce that demographic, I think we have good evidence that the suppliers will still come. Sometimes you have to minimize damage, through programs like clean needle swaps, etc, while fighting underlying causes. Armed conflict might lead to escalation, which will severely impoverish these communities.

Industries dry up when demand dries up. That's what I suggest, attack demand. What this is attempting to attack is supply. I would not be so conservative as to employ supply-side economics to solve the problems of the working class.
What are you talking about? Do you even know what reagan did? He turned the CIA into the world's biggest drug trafficker and packed the prisons with petty addicts.

I'd say it's progressive to target the capitalists who are producing. And don't think that republicans don't educate the community against drugs. There are broad community groups like CFAD, but there are limits to what they can do. No capitalist industry has ever been hobbled by a boycott, just to let you know.

There really isn't any point to debate this when you can't even define the terms of the "conservatism" you are supposedly arguing against.

I think Rosa would disagree violently about his dialectical answer.So? I think many of us would be rather insulted to be placed at Rosa's level.


Of course it's not feasible, because ONH offers no way out and no way forward.

less of a way forward than this?

Militant International Review (CWI) No22, June 1982 wrote (reprinted April 2007):
The labour movement should be mobilised to force a general election to open the way for the return of a Labour government to implement socialist policies at home and abroad. Victory of a socialist government in Britain would immediately transform the situation in relation to the Falklands. The junta would no longer be able to claim to be fighting British imperialism ... A Labour government could not just abandon the Falklanders and let Galtieri get on with it. But it would continue the war on socialist lines.

[~Spectre]

You visit Ardoyne and tell the man who was threatened by drug gangs with bombs in his mailbox that the solution is "education and rehabilitation."

Of course the long-term solution is education and rehabilitation, but do you honestly think that is feasible given how little resources working class republicans have with the threats that they're facing on a day-to-day basis?

I've always had the position that given the resources you can do both - immediate justice as well as long-term rehabilitation. Treat the symptoms and the disease. Treat just the symptoms, and your patient might die eventually. Treat just the disease, and your patient might just die of fever before he makes it to recovery.

Like any strong medication, it's possible to overdose. Obviously there are self defense scenarios that could justify vigilantism. If those occur, and appropriately tailored actions are carried out, then fine.

I see that as a tactic of self defense, and I think it's dangerous for these communities if they adopt that as a strategy for combating drug use.

The lack of working class resources is a serious problem, that much we can all agree. All the more reason I think to choose to apply them wisely. Putting aside all other considerations for a moment, I think these operations are extremely high risk with very low upside.

And that's assuming that drugs should be banned from these communities in the first place. If that assumption is challenged (which it easily can be) then this whole thing just seems very misguided.

[khad]

Like any strong medication, it's possible to overdose. Obviously there are self defense scenarios that could justify vigilantism. If those occur, and appropriately tailored actions are carried out, then fine.
It was the case that hard drugs were coming out of that depot. I've heard numerous comments that attest to that, including one in this forum from a guy who lives in the vicinity of that depot.

My position has always been that addicts should be rehabilitated, but for the capitalists who own this trade, whatever retribution from the community they
face will be fair play.


I think these operations are extremely high risk with very low upside.
The sad fact is that however high a risk they carry, it's less than the risk carried by the community if it decides to name and shame top dealers. As I said before, these operations are carried out by groups like the OnH precisely because the community cannot stand up without fear of reprisals.

[~Spectre]

What are you talking about? Do you even know what reagan did? He turned the CIA into the world's biggest drug trafficker and packed the prisons with petty addicts.

The drug war started before Reagan, and continued after him. Unless you're asserting that drug distribution/sales, today in the U.S. is all a CIA front, then my point stands. U.S. prisons are at their highest capacity ever, and drugs dealers are still being synthesized.

Can you please answer the Mexico example? Why will vigilantes succeed in scaring off drug dealers when Los Zetas have failed?


I'd say it's progressive to target the capitalists who are producing. And don't think that republicans don't educate the community against drugs. There are broad community groups like CFAD, but there are limits to what they can do. No capitalist industry has ever been hobbled by a boycott, just to let you know.Tobacco use in the United States got slashed when the anti-tobacco movement engaged in these sorts of tactics. It's social acceptance used to be off the charts. They won that battle by attacking the demand, not by carrying out vigilante attacks against the supply side.


There really isn't any point to debate this when you can't even define the terms of the "conservatism" you are supposedly arguing againstIt's a reference to Reagan since you both brought him up and called me a liberal. The idea that the proper way to combat something is through attacking supply, rather than demand, is entirely Reaganesque. That's the phrase that was used. Supply-side.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Can you please answer the Mexico example?

Well, the paramilitaries in Ireland do have the advantage in this comparison simply due to the fact that they're not next to the largest drug bazaar on planet Earth.

[~Spectre]

The sad fact is that however high a risk they carry, it's less than the risk carried by the community if it decides to name and shame top dealers. As I said before, these operations are carried out by groups like the OnH precisely because the community cannot stand up without fear of reprisals.

What has the reaction been from the drug gangs? (Serious question, not a rebuttal)

It seems like they'd simply double down on protection and weaponry for these sites, no?

[khad]

It's a reference to Reagan since you both brought him up and called me a liberal. The idea that the proper way to combat something is through attacking supply, rather than demand, is entirely Reaganesque. That's the phrase that was used. Supply-side.
You are using an entirely specious analogy. Supply side for reagan, apart from that bit you learned in high school economics, was an economic development paradigm that favored the stimulation of big capital through the squeezing of the working class.

This meant in drug war terms making the CIA the biggest trafficker on the planet while filling the prisons with petty addicts that got hooked buying CIA crack cocaine. Similarly the PSNI lets drugs run amok in republican communities to demoralize and control them.

This has been the neoliberal pattern of development for the past 3 decades. Entire economies are structured around these inequities, and attacking power players in these structures does not constitute being a reaganite.

Leftists love to blame banks for the mortgage crisis and the ensuing financial panic. Does that mean that they're reaganites as well? Do you aim to solve this whole thing through educating the working class and not doing a damn thing about the banks? (This question is rhetorical, at least I hope so)

There's a fundamental problem you're having here with logic. It's a problem that seems fairly endemic to revleft and one that makes debating on it one of the least productive activities one can possibly do.

[~Spectre]

You are using an entirely specious analogy. Supply side for reagan, apart from that bit you learned in high school economics, was an economic development paradigm that favored the stimulation of big capital through the squeezing of the working class.

This meant in drug war terms making the CIA the biggest trafficker on the planet while filling the prisons with petty addicts that got hooked buying CIA crack cocaine. Similarly the PSNI lets drugs run amok in republican communities to demoralize and control them.

This has been the neoliberal pattern of development for the past 3 decades. Entire economies are structured around these inequities, and attacking it does not constitute being a reaganite.

Leftists love to blame banks for the mortgage crisis and the ensuing financial panic. Does that mean that they're reaganites as well?

There's a fundamental problem you're having here with logic.

The fundamental problem is that you misread (intentionally or otherwise) one part of my post and ignored the rest of it.

[khad]

The fundamental problem is that you misread (intentionally or otherwise) one part of my post and ignored the rest of it.
So it's also reaganite to blame banks for the mortgage crisis, then? :rolleyes:

[~Spectre]

So it's also reaganite to blame banks for the mortgage crisis, then? :rolleyes:

Is that what you're claiming? Interesting but I'm not sure what such a question has to do with the topic or anything I've posted within it.

[khad]

Is that what you're claiming? Interesting but I'm not sure what such a question has to do with the topic or anything I've posted within it.
You defined any attack on a producer in a capitalist system as reaganism.

Removing a drug lord is reaganism because it affects supply.

By the same logic, criticizing banks is reaganism, since banks are suppliers in a financial system.

Your logic makes no sense. There's a very basic reason why it makes no sense, and I've already explained it to you at length. Identifying the power players in capitalist economies and acting against them does not make you a capitalist.

[~Spectre]

You defined any attack on a producer in a capitalist system as reaganism.

No I haven't. Not any more than you defined taking into accounts the preferences of x minority demographic in a given territory as "liberalism".

My remark was that, you're the one echoing his talking points. It was meant more colloquially, and I suspect you knew that. You latched on to this as a mechanism to avoid answering anything else.

Now, your bank example, while flawed, is more liberal than Reaganite. It does draw up a good parallel though. Adequate campaigns against finance and capitalism shouldn't be based around bankers, they should be based around capitalism. Like wise, at the very least a campaign against drug used, shouldn't be based around drug dealers.

Just like vigilantism against a bank creates more problems than it solves...

Just like vigilantism against the tobacco industry creates more problems than it solves...

vigilantism against drug dealers creates more problems than it solves.

_____

Now, meaningless debate over what I meant when I said "supply-side" to you aside:

"
What are you talking about? Do you even know what reagan did? He turned the CIA into the world's biggest drug trafficker and packed the prisons with petty addicts.

The drug war started before Reagan, and continued after him. Unless you're asserting that drug distribution/sales, today in the U.S. is all a CIA front, then my point stands. U.S. prisons are at their highest capacity ever, and drugs dealers are still being synthesized.

Can you please answer the Mexico example? Why will vigilantes succeed in scaring off drug dealers when Los Zetas have failed?


I'd say it's progressive to target the capitalists who are producing. And don't think that republicans don't educate the community against drugs. There are broad community groups like CFAD, but there are limits to what they can do. No capitalist industry has ever been hobbled by a boycott, just to let you know.Tobacco use in the United States got slashed when the anti-tobacco movement engaged in these sorts of tactics. It's social acceptance used to be off the charts. They won that battle by attacking the demand, not by carrying out vigilante attacks against the supply."

&


What has the reaction been from the drug gangs? (Serious question, not a rebuttal)

It seems like they'd simply double down on protection and weaponry for these sites, no?

[khad]

No I haven't. Not any more than you defined taking into accounts the preferences of x minority demographic in a given territory as "liberalism".

My remark was that, you're the one echoing his talking points. It was meant more colloquially, and I suspect you knew that. You latched on to this as a mechanism to avoid answering anything else.

Now, your bank example, while flawed, is more liberal than Reaganite. It does draw up a good parallel though. Adequate campaigns against finance and capitalism shouldn't be based around the banks, they should be based around capitalism. Like wise, at the very least a campaign against drug used, shouldn't be based around drug dealers.

Again, more inconsistent drivel.

Banks ⊂ Capitalist Institutions, whereas the only real institutions in the illicit drug market are the suppliers broadly defined.

It just seems to me that you're writing a roundabout way of penalizing the working class for things which are done to them.


Now, meaningless debate over what I meant when I said "supply-side" to you aside:As you've amply demonstrated, you have as little command of logic as you did when you started this. When you are able to define analogous sets, maybe your position might be worth a damn. Probably not, though.


The drug war started before Reagan, and continued after him. Unless you're asserting that drug distribution/sales, today in the U.S. is all a CIA front, then my point stands. U.S. prisons are at their highest capacity ever, and drugs dealers are still being synthesized. The American government is still actively involved in the drug trade. Ever hear of the opium lord Wali Karzai, the brother of Afghan President Hamid Karzai? Capitalist wars on drugs are inevitably doomed to failure because what ends up happening on the macro scale is that the states and officials supposedly in charge of dealing with the problem are actively involved in raking in the profits from a very lucrative capitalist enterprise. In the case of Northern Ireland, the British state (the original narcotics empire) ignores and even promotes the drug trade as a way to destroy republican communities and weaken their will to resist.


Can you please answer the Mexico example? Why will vigilantes succeed in scaring off drug dealers when Los Zetas have failed?"Vigilantes" (I hate how you are using these loaded terms because these so-called "vigilantes" act in coordination with other, more public community groups) are the community's last desperate defense in an impossible situation. As I have described before The problem with Mexico is that there's no ascendant revolutionary movement like there was in China which solved the opium plague with a combination of education and severe punishment. And Mexico's current problems pale to what China faced, where the opium market received full state support under the nationalist government and grew to monstrous proportions. What you call "vigilante" actions such as destroying entire fields of opium and executing opium lords would just be "legitimized" under the guise of law and disciplinary procedure when you have a movement capable of exercising such power. That level political power also enabled a broad program of education regarding this issue, a program which did not vilify the common addict but did make suppliers enemies of the people. It's merely a difference of degree that gives an illusion of a difference of form.


Tobacco use in the United States got slashed when the anti-tobacco movement engaged in these sorts of tactics. It's social acceptance used to be off the charts. They won that battle by attacking the demand, not by carrying out vigilante attacks against the supply."How quaint. When was tobacco used to demoralize and terrorize communities on a daily basis?

[Andropov]

and i have an inkeling that if it indeed is so that "republican comunitees are overun by drugs" one of the main reasons would be the dire social climate, the lack of possibilities
Spot on.

the rotten defeatist self-victimisation
Im not sure what you mean by this?

and siege mentallity that by now is furthered way more by the poisinous violent sectarian influence of the vigilante groups than the british "imperialists",
So the siege mentality is furthered more by the vigilante groups than by the direct invovlement of British Imperialism?
You really have not an iota of a clue what the situation is like do you?
All these groups spring out of a reaction to the context, they did not create this context they are products of it. Sectarianism is an imperial import and the likes of OnH are products of that.
If indeed the context has changed and imperialism is indeed dead and over then these groups would have simply faded into history with the local communitys pushing them out, but that is not the case.
There is very much still a siege mentality that working class people have to live through on a daily basis, its a day to day concern of where not to walk at a certain time of day, what not to wear in a certain part of town, what name to give yourself in certain pubs.
I would sincerely love it, love it if you had to live in the Short Strand for a few weeks with your wife and kids while it is under its "self victimised self imposed siege mentality".
5ykhPLwAmR4
These communities under attack by the collected forces of British Imperialism reach a zenit around the 12th every single year and so it will continue because like every credible marxist who has studied the context has realised that sectarianism is a product of british "imperialism" (as you put, in your nice condescending comma's).
These communities have lived through pogroms so forgive them their "self victimisation".

its not that criminal behavior, arms dealing,
Criminal behaviour?
By whose standards?
Surely your not judging it by the Bourgeois estbalishments standards?
Nice to see such a clearly admirable and hard working leftist plugging Maggie Thatchers criminalisation policy.

yes even drugdealing is something your admired volunteers never dabled in.
Yet more regurgitating of Bourgeois slander, how quaint.
Yes there have been Volunteers who have been involved in drug dealing.
But these have been isolated cases, these have been sanctioned for such behaviour, harshly.
The only Republican group to ever condone it was IPLO, but they were wiped out for their degenerate behaviour.
With Republicans coming from deprived working class areas where drug abuse is a problem and to think that every single Republican should be immune to their respective contexts is pure and utter fantasy but im sure that sits well with your politics.
It is as futile an excercise as it is for the Bourgeois to list every individual leftist who was ever involved with drugs.
Now I should probably make this clear, I in no way endorse OnH or their tactics, I criticise it, im sick of me shite of these groups with their empty populist tactics.
But I could not read such utter tripe from yourself psycho and not tackle it.
If indeed you do oppose these tactics throwing out inane horseshit like valed accusations of drug dealing and criminality and belittleing working class communities problems is in no way productive to the likes of OnH reverting their policies or communities changing their perspectives on these social problems.
Whether you like it or not OnH is respected to one extent or the other in these working class communities, infantile mud slinging only discredits yourself in their eyes.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't know about "functional" but there are a large number of drug users and addicts that have proven themselves to be geniuses from Aldous Huxley and Hunter S Thompson to Oscar Wilde and Benjamin Franklin. If you can't imagine how a junkie can be functional it's probably because your circumstances have sheltered you from them and you only know about them from second hand sources.

It's likely that stopping would prove an advantage to his long term health but it's not really your place to admonish him or make assumptions about his family.

There actual is such a thing, I am sorry. I take back what i said.

[Salyut]

Angry posts aside; I'm actually learning stuff from this thread.

I'm seriously torn on what side to back tho'.

[JrR]

Aren't the drug users also part of the community though? I don't see how this is any different to the bourgoise approach of covering up 'undesirables'.

[Salyut]

Aren't the drug users also part of the community though? I don't see how this is any different to the bourgoise approach of covering up 'undesirables'.

I'm pretty sure they target the organized crime groups that distribute as opposed to the users.

[The Grey Blur]

@khad: noone is denying the worth of working-class self-policing, but the ONH are hardly a model of that. at least the provos for all their faults could correctly lay claim to some sort of mandate for their actions, as well as a degree of accountability. you mention DAAD in derry as making 'concrete progress' - this is the same DAAD which burned out a head shop? again, do you think these paramilitaries should target clubs and off-licenses also? or is it only drugs which are outlawed by the bourgeois state that you object to?

if you accept that drug-dealing and abuse are results of social phenomena then the correct approach is to tackle them as such, by leading a social struggle which would eliminate the underlying causes of both. considering there is a resurgence in left-wing republicanism and swathes of republican socialists openly active in their communities engaged in constructive social & political efforts, your decision to glorify the actions of such an irrelevant anti-worker group strikes me as bizarre. pizza-boys and self-employed barbers are not enemies of the revolution.

[JrR]

I'm pretty sure they target the organized crime groups that distribute as opposed to the users.

but the ways that are being used to describe the users on here certainly certainly look like that.

[The Grey Blur]

When your landlord is a drug dealer, that's the way it goes


More on this from another forum:


Joe Prole man on the street voices right there.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/oc_images/images/smilies/screwy.gif

well first of all they're hardly 'joe prole', they're the sort of headcases who post on ir.net, that place wets itself every time a punishment attack is carried out. secondly i already addressed how these pro-punishment attitudes are prevalent in working-class nationalist areas, and why. that doesn't necessarily mean they're correct in their rationale, nor that because certain members of a community support (or certain members of a class) support an action that communists should slavishly follow their lead.

[Robocommie]

Treat the symptoms and the disease. Treat just the symptoms, and your patient might die eventually. Treat just the disease, and your patient might just die of fever before he makes it to recovery.

I think it's funny you phrased it this way, since your avatar is a medical doctor. :D

[Salyut]

but the ways that are being used to describe the users on here certainly certainly look like that.

Yeah.

Have supervised injection sites ever been proposed in NI?

[Crux]

From his negrep of me:
taking out on drug lord is worth more than selling a thousand papers
Which is why I didn't feel like giving you a list of what I and the comrades have actually done. You are a waste of time. But for the benefit of others reading:
http://www.socialistpartyaustralia.org/archives/2752
http://www.socialistpartyaustralia.org/archives/1247

[fionntan]

@khad: noone is denying the worth of working-class self-policing, but the ONH are hardly a model of that. at least the provos for all their faults could correctly lay claim to some sort of mandate for their actions, as well as a degree of accountability. you mention DAAD in derry as making 'concrete progress' - this is the same DAAD which burned out a head shop? again, do you think these paramilitaries should target clubs and off-licenses also? or is it only drugs which are outlawed by the bourgeois state that you object to?

if you accept that drug-dealing and abuse are results of social phenomena then the correct approach is to tackle them as such, by leading a social struggle which would eliminate the underlying causes of both. considering there is a resurgence in left-wing republicanism and swathes of republican socialists openly active in their communities engaged in constructive social & political efforts, your decision to glorify the actions of such an irrelevant anti-worker group strikes me as bizarre. pizza-boys and self-employed barbers are not enemies of the revolution.


I realy dont were to start with that barage of tripe but for one Irish republicans do not need a mandate. Two it was the IRA who shoot the owner of the head shop in Derry another was burnt in dublin by the IRA to.Three enter any offsales in Belfast or Derry and you see posters inside saying no drink to be sold to under 18s from 32CSM. And the pizza boys you refer to were warned as are any collabaraters.

[The Grey Blur]

I realy dont were to start with that barage of tripe but for one Irish republicans do not need a mandate.
a good healthy contempt for the opinions of working people, nice.


Two it was the IRA who shoot the owner of the head shop in Derry another was burnt in dublin by the IRA to.
this is just semantics as it's well known DAAD are made up of current and ex-republican volunteers. the issue being debated is whether or not you think attacking head shops is a serious political activity or the actions of hysterical righteous catholic-fascist-tinged crusader-nutcases.


Three enter any offsales in Belfast or Derry and you see posters inside saying no drink to be sold to under 18s from 32CSM.
i've never seen these posters though i'm sure they exist. it doesn't address the fact that drinking (whether over or under-age) is just as much a drug and catalyst for violence and anti-social behaviour in working-class areas as proscribed narcotics. that you even buy into the bourgeois morality of 'over' and 'under' age drinking says a lot.


And the pizza boys you refer to were warned as are any collabaraters.
lol, you character. i think this shite adequately sums up your politics.

[fionntan]

I do like your useage of words pizza "boys" they were men..
Healthy contempt
Catholic facists

nice try but im sure the readers of the site will see through your anti republican agenda.

[crazyirish93]

ive read a few comments saying that this is wrong. i say if the people want it done or if it benefits the community then who the fuck are u to say anything against it :mad:

[Lord Testicles]

ive read a few comments saying that this is wrong. i say if the people want it done or if it benefits the community then who the fuck are u to say anything against it :mad:

I've read a few comments saying that immigration laws are wrong. I say if the people want immigrants out because they think it benefits the community then who the fuck are you to say anything against it. :mad:

This is why arguments ad populum are stupid.

[fionntan]

I've read a few comments saying that immigration laws are wrong. I say if the people want immigrants out because they think it benefits the community then who the fuck are you to say anything against it. :mad:

This is why arguments ad populum are stupid.


Ye clueless bastard...

[crazyirish93]

I've read a few comments saying that immigration laws are wrong. I say if the people want immigrants out because they think it benefits the community then who the fuck are you to say anything against it. :mad:

This is why arguments ad populum are stupid.

do not take what i said out of context to suit your own counter argument u should know better :mad:

[khad]

Republicans are generally known to be more sympathetic towards immigrants whereas loyalists would just as soon join their BNP buddies in curb stomping them. It's an absurd analogy.

Polish immigrants actually gave prods a terrorism scare when they unfurled an eirigi green star at that one football match, haha.

[Lord Testicles]

Ye clueless bastard...


do not take what i said out of context to suit your own counter argument u should know better :mad:


Republicans are generally known to be more sympathetic towards immigrants whereas loyalists would just as soon join their BNP buddies in curb stomping them. It's an absurd analogy.

Polish immigrants actually gave prods a terrorism scare when they unfurled an eirigi green star at that one football match, haha.

I think you should all read what I said again, but this time more carefully.

[fionntan]

Republicans are generally known to be more sympathetic towards immigrants whereas loyalists would just as soon join their BNP buddies in curb stomping them. It's an absurd analogy.

Polish immigrants actually gave prods a terrorism scare when they unfurled an eirigi green star at that one football match, haha.

Any republicans i know are marxist so there fore its self explainatary..

[Salyut]

Any republicans i know are marxist so there fore its self explainatary..

Wasn't the marxist phase of the PIRA limited to the 1980's?

[Jazzratt]

By the by khad is hwat we in the normal working class call a "total fuckhead" if anyone things they can argue with armchair, panty-pad his anti-science kneecapping horsecock then they're mistaken. It's like telling a coppper that he's a class traitor - true but unlikely to change anything.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Drug dealers are like weeds; short of scorching the fucking earth so that nothing can live there, you will never get rid of them permanently, because whacking dealers does nothing to address the demand for drugs, it merely opens up a gap in the market for someone else to fill (in the case of small-time dealers) or simply levels the playing field if a major kingpin is toppled.

But don't let's get simple facts get in the way of opportunities to gleefully torture and murder one of "the enemy"; after all, it's sanctioned by the community, so it's alright.

Does anyone else but me think that is a borderline medieval attitude?

[Jazzratt]

Does anyone else but me think that is a borderline medieval attitude? Try explaining that to the pricks.

The hilarious (i.e fucking tragic) is that the republican army are now basically filling the role of the cops in peace time so that in any geniunely revolutionary setting the filth are at full strength.

[The Red Next Door]

I do not know, if you guys know this or not. But when you are buying drugs, you could be buying it from someone who is connected with the fucking CIA or M16. You are funding reaction by buying drugs, and what good it going to do to legalize them in a capitalists state. If it is a socialist state, then your plan for legalization would be okay, but have you ever thought that being herion and drugs. You are funding death squads in Colombia or someother fuck up reactionary country?

[Crux]

I do not know, if you guys know this or not. But when you are buying drugs, you could be buying it from someone who is connected with the fucking CIA or M16. You are funding reaction by buying drugs, and what good it going to do to legalize them in a capitalists state. If it is a socialist state, then your plan for legalization would be okay, but have you ever thought that being herion and drugs. You are funding death squads in Colombia or someother fuck up reactionary country?
I am funding reaction with the sneakers I wear and the cigarettes I smoke. Child-labour is a horrible thing, yet don't you agree it would be a dumfuck move to start bombing your local clothing store chain? I am not for legalization, I am for decriminalization and treating substance abuse as a medical condition, as well as addressing the underlying social causes. Some here argue that knee-capping dealers is a better way to go about it. Nevermind the evidently reactionary attitudes to crime and punishment presented quite clearly by this thread's starter Fat Cat, nevermind the problem with an unaccountable secterian force like ONH acting as a representative of the community, don't you think it's better to attack the actual causes than cheerlead vigilantism by the ONH?

[StalinFanboy]

I do not know, if you guys know this or not. But when you are buying drugs, you could be buying it from someone who is connected with the fucking CIA or M16. You are funding reaction by buying drugs, and what good it going to do to legalize them in a capitalists state. If it is a socialist state, then your plan for legalization would be okay, but have you ever thought that being herion and drugs. You are funding death squads in Colombia or someother fuck up reactionary country?
Yeah basically all money spent ever goes to some fucked up reactionary organization, whether it is colombian death squads or microsoft.


sort of just the reality of capitalism.

[The Red Next Door]

I am funding reaction with the sneakers I wear and the cigarettes I smoke. Child-labour is a horrible thing, yet don't you agree it would be a dumfuck move to start bombing your local clothing store chain? I am not for legalization, I am for decriminalization and treating substance abuse as a medical condition, as well as addressing the underlying social causes. Some here argue that knee-capping dealers is a better way to go about it. Nevermind the evidently reactionary attitudes to crime and punishment presented quite clearly by this thread's starter Fat Cat, nevermind the problem with an unaccountable secterian force like ONH acting as a representative of the community, don't you think it's better to attack the actual causes than cheerlead vigilantism by the ONH?

Okay, you seem to think. We are calling for the death of the victims of drug use. Why do you care to whine over a drug dealer with a fucking 2011 benz, than the victims and the lives. These mothefuckers destroy.

This coming from a anti irish racist white Swedish, who do not live in Black America or Occupied Ireland.

I wonder behind that computer screen, if you are calling me a stupid nigger, since you seem to insult the irish people and the board.

You probably be sitting there, calling me a stupid stalinist nigger huh?

am i a stupid stalinist nigger?

[Crux]

Okay, you seem to think. We are calling for the death of the victims of drug use. Why do you care to whine over a drug dealer with a fucking 2011 benz, than the victims and the lives. These mothefuckers destroy.

This coming from a anti irish racist white Swedish, who do not live in Black America or Occupied Ireland.

I wonder behind that computer screen, if you are calling me a stupid nigger, since you seem to insult the irish people and the board.

You probably be sitting there, calling me a stupid stalinist nigger huh?

am i a stupid stalinist nigger?
Let me guess, grey blur is an "anti-irish" racist too? :laugh:
So what exactly is it you have a problem wrapping your brain around? The fact that punishment shootings is a dead end strategy?
I am not calling you anything, stop being such a narcissist. And yeah nice flame baiting.

Let's try again:
I am funding reaction with the sneakers I wear and the cigarettes I smoke. Child-labour is a horrible thing, yet don't you agree it would be a dumfuck move to start bombing your local clothing store chain? I am not for legalization, I am for decriminalization and treating substance abuse as a medical condition, as well as addressing the underlying social causes. Some here argue that knee-capping dealers is a better way to go about it. Nevermind the evidently reactionary attitudes to crime and punishment presented quite clearly by this thread's starter Fat Cat, nevermind the problem with an unaccountable secterian force like ONH acting as a representative of the community, don't you think it's better to attack the actual causes than cheerlead vigilantism by the ONH?

And just a note of clarification, even if bombing your local clothing chain would not kill anyone, it would still be a dumbfuck move for exactly the same reasons. I think that's where you got confused.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I do not know, if you guys know this or not. But when you are buying drugs, you could be buying it from someone who is connected with the fucking CIA or M16. You are funding reaction by buying drugs, and what good it going to do to legalize them in a capitalists state. If it is a socialist state, then your plan for legalization would be okay, but have you ever thought that being herion and drugs. You are funding death squads in Colombia or someother fuck up reactionary country?

If you're buying heroin in Europe, you're far more likely to be supporting the glorious anti-imperialist struggle in Afghanistan, actually.

[gorillafuck]

This coming from a anti irish racist white Swedish, who do not live in Black America or Occupied Ireland.

I wonder behind that computer screen, if you are calling me a stupid nigger, since you seem to insult the irish people and the board.

You probably be sitting there, calling me a stupid stalinist nigger huh?

am i a stupid stalinist nigger?You need to back up everything I quoted.

Also, you have this bizarre idea that minorities are all hardass anti-drug people and white middle class people are all drug supporters. Which is so, so far from reality.

And yeah, when you buy drugs (not that I'm in favor of buying hard drugs, I'm opposed to hard drugs, and so are most people here which you ignore) you could be supporting a death squad or a druglord. You could also be supporting the Taliban, or buying drugs that were taxed by FARC-EP.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

To all the people crying about how "this won't end the demand for drugs", while it is true that only socialism will end the drug trade, in the meantime though are the working class of the six counties supposed to just put up with these scumbags turning their areas into living hells lest they offend the delicate sensibilities of some trendies? I know I'd definitely rather live in a neighbourhood where drug dealers knew they ran the real risk of getting shot, than one where they knew they could act with impunity.

[The Grey Blur]

it won't end the demand for drugs and thus it won't end drug dealers. all criminals run the risk of bodily harm, it doesn't make me feel any safer to know ONH are going around dealing out random attacks.

you realise i'm from west belfast, right? every single day i hang around andytown, the falls, or the city centre. every single day you get some petty hassle, every other week someone gets stabbed or shot. so i'd appreciate less of this trendy stuff, cheers.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

To all the people crying about how "this won't end the demand for drugs", while it is true that only socialism will end the drug trade, in the meantime though are the working class of the six counties supposed to just put up with these scumbags turning their areas into living hells lest they offend the delicate sensibilities of some trendies? I know I'd definitely rather live in a neighbourhood where drug dealers knew they ran the real risk of getting shot, than one where they knew they could act with impunity.

So you admit that you like the idea of living in a community where torture and murder are dished out on a regular basis?

Another thing to consider is what exactly makes an area a "living hell" - is it the community death squads roaming the place kneecapping and shooting people? Apparently not. Is it the lack of any real opportunities for the younger generation? Nobody's mentioned that, so it must not be the case, even though the ruling classes don't like spending any more than they absolutely have to on their colonies. Is it the divisive rhetoric and violence that has been going on for generations now? Of course not! Don't you know it's always the other side who are completely wrong? It doesn't matter which as long as you pick a side!

All those things "obviously" cannot be the reason, so it must be the drug dealers. Yeah. If it weren't for them, Northern Ireland would be a workers' paradise! So if you find anyone selling some weed to supplement their meagre income, you know what to do: fucking kneecap them. Nothing like a bit of violence to improve a community and make everyone feel safer!

[Sasha]

Okay, you seem to think. We are calling for the death of the victims of drug use. Why do you care to whine over a drug dealer with a fucking 2011 benz, than the victims and the lives. These mothefuckers destroy.

This coming from a anti irish racist white Swedish, who do not live in Black America or Occupied Ireland.

I wonder behind that computer screen, if you are calling me a stupid nigger, since you seem to insult the irish people and the board.

You probably be sitting there, calling me a stupid stalinist nigger huh?

am i a stupid stalinist nigger?
Have an infraction for flaming, that's well out of order.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Also, I wonder why the community death squads don't target corner shops, off-licences, tobacconists, and anyone else legally selling tobacco products or alcohol? Because the tax revenue from such sales are used to fund an imperialist state.

[Soldier of life]

Any republicans i know are marxist so there fore its self explainatary..

You mustn't know many. You should meet the 32csm, their cumann in the capital of Ireland in their own 'unique' 'marxist' way seem to enjoy condemning union leaders in the interests of multi-nationals that exploit Irish workers. Read this, it's a laugh:

Dublin 32 CSM tell David Begg General Secretary ICTU: "When you have nothing good to say then please be silent."

At the recent Irish Taxation Institute debate chaired by journalist Olivia O’Leary in Kildare St, Dublin, economics professor Karl Whelan said “I don’t think anyone believes” Ireland is going to reach a target of a 3 per cent deficit by 2014.

Also addressing the meeting were Mr David Begg General Secretary ICTU, Prof Whelan, William Slattery of State Street Ireland, and Feargal O’Rourke of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Mr O’Rourke and Prof Whelan said they agreed with the European Commissioner Olli Rehn that Ireland’s days as a low tax economy were gone. Mr Slattery said he thought there was an agenda in Europe to push Ireland towards higher taxes but the Government must retain the 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate.

Mr David Begg accepted that Ireland was “under taxed” when compared with other countries. Many years ago he had wanted Ireland to adopt a Nordic model of high taxes and high quality public services; now Ireland was going to get high taxes for all the wrong reasons.

The above comment from Mr. Begg shows just how out of touch he is with the working class and with what is needed to keep jobs in Ireland or to attract much needed inward investment.

Recently, the EU Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn sparked controversy when he answered a question about Ireland's low corporation tax rate by saying it was "a fact of life" that Ireland would no longer be a low-tax economy over the next 10 years.

On the 18th October, 2010 when asked about the importance of the 12.5pc corporation tax rate in Hollister's decision to locate the new jobs in Ballina, management at the US multinational healthcare company said the 12.5pc rate on offer here was the key factor in deciding to expand its plant in Co Mayo.

Mr. Crowe said: "It's very, very important. The tax rate allows us to re-invest in our facilities. If it weren't there, it would really open us up to looking globally at new sites to manufacture our products. Locations in Eastern Europe, India and the US also pitched for the new plant, but lost out to Ireland's tax incentive”.

Our question to Mr. Begg is how he proposes to attract inward investment from such multi-national companies without the retention of Ireland's low corporation tax rate 12.5pc?

The silence of our union leaders has to date being deafening but having said that maybe it is just as well if the way out of our current economic woes is people like David Begg supporting making a case for Ireland being under taxed.

Silence is golden in this case.


Yes, how marxist:rolleyes:

[Soldier of life]

Wasn't the marxist phase of the PIRA limited to the 1980's?

PIRA were never marxist. In fact SF leader Gerry Adams explicitly stated in that decade he knew of no marxist in SF and not even of a person who was influenced by marx. It is from this fine lineage that RSF and the 32csm come. The former in 1986, the latter splitting just over a decade later.

[Soldier of life]

Im going to have to add to this as FCK has said the man in question is a drug dealer i live beside the place the community knew that poision was being sold to there children from the taxi company. Hence it getting burnt. I for one am glade its gone. And im also glade that the owner and his partner got 48 hours to leave Ireland or face community justice. As for Soldier Of Life butting in what would the INLA of done stuck him and his mates down man holes for 7 hours to think about what they done. Because that is what they do to young men in Ardoyne ..

I don't support conspiratorial and unaccountable armies kneecapping small time dealers, be it the INLA or anyone else. It's reactionary nonsense.

Socialist republicans should have a mature enough marxist reasoning to know that these problems are societal and will not be solved by armed actions by a conspiratorial army. Longterm, the problem lies with socio-economic conditions and systemic flaws within capitalism.

Short-term, rather than blowing off the kneecaps of the odd small time drug dealer or indeed putting them down a manhole for punishment, communities must be organised and empowered to deal with the problem. This will not only be democratic and accountable, it will, through the empowering of people outside the organs of the capitalist state, lay down the framework for working towards socialism and the real politik of socialism in action.

[RedSquare]

PIRA were never marxist. In fact SF leader Gerry Adams explicitly stated in that decade he knew of no marxist in SF and not even of a person who was influenced by marx. It is from this fine lineage that RSF and the 32csm come. The former in 1986, the latter splitting just over a decade later.
Well I think time has shown Gerry Adams to be a bit of an eejit, to put it lightly. It would be insane to state that some of those who joined the republican struggle throughout that phase weren't influenced by Marx.

I certainly have talked to many who explored and liked the theories of Mao, Connolly, and Marx. In fact, I would say it's impossible to have a movement for social or political change that hasn't come into contact with Marx and/or theories derived from Marx.

Obviously given the Provisional's early history, they would not publicly admit to having anything to do with Marxism, given their animosity towards the Stickies, who then went onto become one of the most reactionary elements on the Left until they purged themselves of the scum who are mainly now in Labour.

[Soldier of life]

Well I think time has shown Gerry Adams to be a bit of an eejit, to put it lightly. It would be insane to state that some of those who joined the republican struggle throughout that phase weren't influenced by Marx.

I certainly have talked to many who explored and liked the theories of Mao, Connolly, and Marx. In fact, I would say it's impossible to have a movement for social or political change that hasn't come into contact with Marx and/or theories derived from Marx.

Obviously given the Provisional's early history, they would not publicly admit to having anything to do with Marxism, given their animosity towards the Stickies, who then went onto become one of the most reactionary elements on the Left until they purged themselves of the scum who are mainly now in Labour.

You are correct here, my argument was in response to a suggestion that the PIRA ever had a marxist phase. Adams' comment actually shows the absurdity of branding them wholly 'marxist' at any stage, while of course some were influence by Marx. For proof of this we need only look at the formation of the League of Communist Republicans.

[The Grey Blur]

or éirigí, or the reading lists of most volunteers in prison. adams himself wrote the foreword to desmond greaves' (one of the greatest irish marxist historians) biography of liam mellows.

what's the source of the quote btw?

[The Red Next Door]

Have an infraction for flaming, that's well out of order.

for calling him on being a white racist pig.

[Salyut]

Obviously given the Provisional's early history, they would not publicly admit to having anything to do with Marxism, given their animosity towards the Stickies, who then went onto become one of the most reactionary elements on the Left until they purged themselves of the scum who are mainly now in Labour.

Did the OIRA ever...do anything? In my readings on the subject I never encountered anything aside from a) they existed b) they fought with INLA.

[Andropov]

Did the OIRA ever...do anything? In my readings on the subject I never encountered anything aside from a) they existed
Read "The Lost Revolution", its blatantly biased towards the Officials but still gives a good account of the sticks.

b) they fought with INLA.
They tried to wipe out the IRSM on its foundation, they didnt want to see the IRSM grow like the Provisional movement before them.

[Crux]

for calling him on being a white racist pig.
Yes, stalintroll. This debate obviously landed above your level. Now enough about you, please explain how punishment shootings is more beneficial than tactics who target the actual causes?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Read "The Lost Revolution", its blatantly biased towards the Officials but still gives a good account of the sticks.
I would question your suggestion of bias - Brian Hanley was a member of the SWP when they were in their 'support the provos' phase and is a decent historian.


They tried to wipe out the IRSM on its foundation, they didnt want to see the IRSM grow like the Provisional movement before them.
The nature of all paramilitary splits - a bloody feud.

[Soldier of life]

or éirigí, or the reading lists of most volunteers in prison. adams himself wrote the foreword to desmond greaves' (one of the greatest irish marxist historians) biography of liam mellows.

what's the source of the quote btw?

Sorry I don't have the text. I believe it was in the 1980s and recently an eirigi representative quoted it in a public debate in Queens University.

[727Goon]

for calling him on being a white racist pig.

Damn nigga, Taylor Gang or keep playing yourself into the white man's stereotype....flawness

[Soldier of life]

I would question your suggestion of bias - Brian Hanley was a member of the SWP when they were in their 'support the provos' phase and is a decent historian.

I wouldn't call it biased myself, the only criticism I would have is that it relies on hearsay at points, yes from some primary sources, but with the vast and often bitter divisions within republicanism the limitations of these kinds of sources must be acknowledged.

Excellent book though and well written.



The nature of all paramilitary splits - a bloody feud.

Untrue. The 1969 split was not bloody. The 1986 split was not bloody. The 1997 split was not bloody.

In fact I think the sticks simply 'learned' from the PIRA split and wanted to nip Costello's organisation in the bud from the start as whole cumainn around the country were crossing over from the sticks.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Untrue. The 1969 split was not bloody.
If I am not mistaken there was more than handbags between the two groups in the early 1970's


The 1986 split was not bloody.
The CIRA really were/are hardly the most active of republican paramilitaries - and there was some handbag incidents with the Provos - although they seem to have reserved more of their ire for feuding among themselves.


The 1997 split was not bloody.
There has been more than one or two incidents - the murder of Joe O'Connor comes to mind. The reason it didn't flare up like others was 1. the fact that the RIRA knew that the Provos could easily wipe them out at the time and tried to avoid provoking them and 2. Adams and his 'peace process' journey and the IRA couldn't afford any extensive feud.



In fact I think the sticks simply 'learned' from the PIRA split and wanted to nip Costello's organisation in the bud from the start as whole cumainn around the country were crossing over from the sticks.
Don't know enough about the internal mechanics of republican paramilitaries to comment.

[Blackscare]

exactly, it really doesnt.

coming from a heroin addicted college student who works about 20 hours a week, i can assure you that the only difficulty junkies face is the "war on drugs" that is in reality just an attack on the downtrodden of society. if it weren't for prohibition and all the problems associated with copping, i would have been leading a perfectly normal life. dickheads like the threadstarter just enforce the stigma and the problems we addicts face. in fact, most people who know me wouldnt believe that i was addicted to heroin just because of how well i have my shit together. the only real problem i have is the legality of it, the outrageous of money i pay for it, and the inability to tell the potency just cuz of the nature of street dope (3 problems that would be non-existent in a fair and just society). if you look at addicts who are lucky enough to be given pharmaceutical heroin by the state as a form of maintenance (also methadone and buprenorphine), trust me they are doing just fine

do us a favopr and instead of attacking those who are just by-products of the rotten system in the first place, work on the real issues that ordinary people face

the government has no right to tell me what i can and cannot put in my body so next time you tell me we addicts are rotten piece of shit lumpenproletariats just do us a favor and fuck off


As a fellow heroin/opiate addict (got away from it, though :cool:), I commend you for your honesty. People who don't know what they're talking about find it real easy to get on a high horse and spout stupid bullshit, but when it's their kid that winds up an addict magically a lot of them sing a different tune.

FCK, you just don't get it, do you? Take your macho ape-man posturing somewhere else.

[Blackscare]

Well then you very obviously don't know much about the drug-using subculture. I'm not speaking for all junkies, but I for one have it pretty good together, simply because I am smart about my using and I have a job that helps me support my habit. And I know many junkies who have been using for years, even decades, and yes you would not be able to tell because they have a nice, house, a family, and a well-paying job. Granted I am in no way endorsing heroin, nor would I recommend it to ANYONE. It it a very dangerous drug, something that I would not be able to say for LSD, weed, or mushrooms (which by the way are extremely safe substances). There are many factors involved in how it negatively affects your life. Yes you can die, but if you take some very simple steps you can reduce your chance to almost zero. In about 90 % of OD cases, people either OD when they go back to using after a long period of abstinence, or they mix it with other downers. So lets say some long-term addict is using about 10 times what a dose for a non-tolerant person would be, when they quit their body adjusts so they would only a third as much to get high, so when they get back they do the same and they OD. Or sometimes an extremely potent batch comes out (almost all the times these are not heroin but "china white", a synthetic lab-produced opioid called alpha-methyl-fentanyl, a substance that is more than 80 times the strength of morphine). Despite all these risks, an easy way to not OD (something I do all the time) is start out with a tester shot to gauge the potency, which unfortunately not many people do.

Speaking from experience, most of the people who do not have it together are people who cant afford it because they dont have a job, and people who are misinformed about safe using (something that's really not hard to pick up if you take the time to look it up).


Sorry to quote the same person in two consecutive posts, but I have to say how much I agree here. It's really hard to hot shot if you're smart about it. Again, NOT that anyone should be doing heroin in the first place, but people need to realize the drug culture is much more sophisticated than it once was.

Good luck to you man, and good luck should you ever decide that you're not down with the diesel anymore.


[That said, I did OD once but we had Narcone)

[Tomhet]

I'm a year and a half off methadone now tbh... :)

[Sasha]

for calling him on being a white racist pig.

and that's infraction number two, keep it up and you will be suspended[/B]]

[Sasha]

As a fellow heroin/opiate addict (got away from it, though :cool:), I commend you for your honesty. People who don't know what they're talking about find it real easy to get on a high horse and spout stupid bullshit, but when it's their kid that winds up an addict magically a lot of them sing a different tune.

FCK, you just don't get it, do you? Take your macho ape-man posturing somewhere else.

Not to make fun of your plight but may I say that I find your choice of words "high horse" the best freudian slip imaginable in this context? :lol:

[Andropov]

I would question your suggestion of bias - Brian Hanley was a member of the SWP when they were in their 'support the provos' phase and is a decent historian.
He is indeed a decent historian but alot of the sources supplied and pivitol people behind it such as Johnston were and are very sypathetic to the Official movement.
I dont want to come across as slating the book because it is very insightfull and overall well written and above all gives a perspective that isnt so blatantly Provisional biased but it does have some of its own prejudices in my opinion.

The nature of all paramilitary splits - a bloody feud.
Look JRG we can just copy and paste the debates we have had countless times here about the nature of paramilitary groups and what not.
We have both made our opinions clear on this topic, I see no benefit in regurgitating the countless debates since neither of us agree with each others perspective.