Conscription

[Vampire Lobster]

Even though most of the posters here are from countries with no conscript army, it's still pretty much the standard in most countries in the world and even couple of Western countries, like Greece, Switzerland and Finland, for example. However, while this is not the case in many less democratic developing world nations, in the West conscription always has an alternative - either working as free labour force for some time (usually seems to be 2x the minimum military service length) or becoming a conscientious objector which can mean either just not serving or working for a better Motherland in a local jail, which is what we Finns do for ours.

Anyways, considering this kind of alternatives exist, what's your stance on participation in Western conscription armies? I'm a Finn and starting my military service this July and quite many of my leftist friends seem to be very surprised over this fact, as it's not apparently something a ~proper communist~ would do. I usually just reply with a) Finnish army isn't involved abroad nor is it likely to be anytime soon b) I get out sooner this way c) I'm not interested in having fun joy time in jail and d) I aim to go into medical training there, which is a skill I believe will come handy after I'm a civilian again. Of course, even after this, people remain flabbergasted and don't think a revolutionary leftist should be involved in the capitalist state's monopoly of violence.

But, this is not a "hey revleft help me live the true communist lifestyle" thread, my mind is made. That kind of attitude just made me wonder what are the stances of rest of you guys towards declining to take any of the alternative for conscription available. It's what the overwhelming majority of even working class people do nowadays in countries with conscription and unfortunately, even though civilian service is getting more socially acceptable, many go to the army just because their families would disapprove strongly of any other decision. And we all give our support to the capitalist order in some way or another anyways in order to cope here, and it's not like sitting in the reserve as a medic is the most blatant form of oppressing the working man. Of course, it still is the most powerful violent arm of the state and precisely the army is the one making uppity proles behave again if shit goes down here.

Still, is it just my silly anarchist friends or do you guys agree with the point that no matter what, a leftist shouldn't be involved in an army if there are alternatives available?

[S.Artesian]

I think your friends are wrong. Conscription is important for maintaining the permeability of the armed forces to class struggle between the officers and the ranks.

[khad]

Let me put it this way. Having the bulk of the army as conscripts is a lot better than having a bunch of lifer mercenaries who express nothing but contempt for civilians. Professional armies have always been the intractable enemies of the left.

[gorillafuck]

Anyways, considering this kind of alternatives exist, what's your stance on participation in Western conscription armies?Depends on the army. If you're in the Finnish army as a conscript, then whatever. You won't be going anywhere, you might learn some things that could help you out at some point. But if you're an IDF soldier being conscripted to serve in Palestine, or a Russian being conscripted to go serve in Chechnya, definitely don't go.

[blake 3:17]

I'd do it. You will learn a lot!


Still, is it just my silly anarchist friends or do you guys agree with the point that no matter what, a leftist shouldn't be involved in an army if there are alternatives available?

Unless you are taking part in an aggressive imperial/colonial project, do it. And if things go crazy, then you report your officers, or put stuff online or....?

You'll have more to contribute to the Left after conscription.

[Vampire Lobster]

I'd do it. You will learn a lot!

Unless you are taking part in an aggressive imperial/colonial project, do it. And if things go crazy, then you report your officers, or put stuff online or....?

You'll have more to contribute to the Left after conscription.

Yeah, I am doing it, the point of this thread was not that, but I got that reaction from so many I thought I'd ask anyways out of curiosity. Really hoping to get into medical training myself, which would seriously be useful in civilian life when compared to just making a statement and working as cheap labour in a library or something like that. Not trying to downplay the value of the kind of job those doing the civilian service are doing or anything, but it probably won't benefit me in the long run.

Also Finland is in Afghanistan but it's mainly about peacekeepers and volunteering specialists helping with setting up the Afghan police and helping the Afghan state to get its shit together. Finland would never actually send conscripts abroad, it would be a politically impossible decision here. If there was an actual risk of me being sent abroad, I'd never join.

[Queercommie Girl]

Yeah, I am doing it, the point of this thread was not that, but I got that reaction from so many I thought I'd ask anyways out of curiosity. Really hoping to get into medical training myself, which would seriously be useful in civilian life when compared to just making a statement and working as cheap labour in a library or something like that. Not trying to downplay the value of the kind of job those doing the civilian service are doing or anything, but it probably won't benefit me in the long run.

Also Finland is in Afghanistan but it's mainly about peacekeepers and volunteering specialists helping with setting up the Afghan police and helping the Afghan state to get its shit together. Finland would never actually send conscripts abroad, it would be a politically impossible decision here. If there was an actual risk of me being sent abroad, I'd never join.

The flip side of the coin is that if your personal career becomes really successful, you probably won't stay a communist anymore. Base determines superstructure.

The bulk of the communist support base has always been relatively poor workers. A professional MD is technically also a worker, because she does not control the means of production, but much fewer people from the relatively more elitist layers of the working class are actually committed communists, except those who are really selfless, intelligent and insightful.

Another question is that should we still have the practice of conscription in a socialist or communist society?

[Vampire Lobster]

I'm actually going to study IR and Chinese, not Medicine. Not planning on becoming a doctor, and army medical training is pretty much just the basic stuff you'll need to know to fix someone up as well as possible with some basic tools. I meant that kind of skills are more likely for me to be useful - especially I've been seriously considered doing volunteer work abroad - than the menial and frankly kind of pointless tasks you often have to do in civilian service. Of course, this is not always the case but most of the jobs don't seem to be too useful there.

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm actually going to study IR and Chinese, not Medicine. Not planning on becoming a doctor, and army medical training is pretty much just the basic stuff you'll need to know to fix someone up as well as possible with some basic tools. I meant that kind of skills are more likely for me to be useful - especially I've been seriously considered doing volunteer work abroad - than the menial and frankly kind of pointless tasks you often have to do in civilian service. Of course, this is not always the case but most of the jobs don't seem to be too useful there.

All right.

Well good luck to you, but I'm just a bit concerned about your dismissal of "menial jobs" as "pointless tasks", because it seems to me that that's what the bulk of the working class around the world seem to be doing every single day.

[Vampire Lobster]

I think I already did say that I don't mean to downplay the meaning of those jobs, just that I'd prefer to use six months of training for practical skills than doing them, when I have the choice. And my comment on them being pointless and menial really has to do with what I've actually heard from some civilians, that they're often not really treated as real workforce in many places and end up really doing nothing at all. Of course, some people have had time of their life in civilian service, learned plenty of useful skills there and maybe have actually eventually made a career through it. It really does vary a lot.

[Luisrah]

Let me put it this way. Having the bulk of the army as conscripts is a lot better than having a bunch of lifer mercenaries who express nothing but contempt for civilians. Professional armies have always been the intractable enemies of the left.

Exactly. An army of conscripts means everyone is there on obligation, and this means that if there is an unfair war, it's much easier for the army to back away, than having a mercenary army denying going to war.

The revolution in Portugal in 74 was only possible because the army was of conscripts. No one wanted to go to the colonial war, everyone was there on obligation, until they decided they could just kick their bosses out.

A mercernary will probably kill a civillian if a superior orders him, a conscript probably won't.

[Widerstand]

Let me put it this way. Having the bulk of the army as conscripts is a lot better than having a bunch of lifer mercenaries who express nothing but contempt for civilians. Professional armies have always been the intractable enemies of the left.

I don't know about other countries with conscription (ignoring Israel which's army consists of primarily conscripts afaik), but Germany had a dual system of professional soldiers and conscripts. Conscripts were never used in combat (maybe if Germany was attacked they would've been, idk, but surely not abroad). They basically just got training and then spent their time either doing nothing or really shitty work, often basic paper work. But now German is without conscription (my age group was the last), as decided by our current right wing/neoliberal government.

And of course the German left cheered for it, because, you know, peace & flowers and shit (some of them seriously need to read Rosa Luxemburg's "Military or Militias?").

Personally I didn't conscript because I managed to get a medical check which got me out of it without consequences. I'd definitely conscript in Switzerland though, from what I know of their army a lot of the training conscripts get is basically on guerrilla warfare.

[Geiseric]

Just want to say thanks to Khad for his comment on professional army vs. Conscript, i'm wondering if a professional army would turn to the working class in a revolution kike what happened in egypt. For example, would U.S. Army side with workers or government is what i'm wondering.

[Widerstand]

Just want to say thanks to Khad for his comment on professional army vs. Conscript, i'm wondering if a professional army would turn to the working class in a revolution kike what happened in egypt. For example, would U.S. Army side with workers or government is what i'm wondering.

The Egypt Army didn't "turn to the working class".

[khad]

Just want to say thanks to Khad for his comment on professional army vs. Conscript, i'm wondering if a professional army would turn to the working class in a revolution kike what happened in egypt. For example, would U.S. Army side with workers or government is what i'm wondering.
The Egyptian army is primarily conscripted and kept to its word about not firing on protesters. It's a lot harder to do this with professional troops since they have more institutional investment in the military itself. The issue is not so much about conscription as the kind of institutional culture (or perhaps lack thereof) conscription helps sustain.

A conscript is looking at 1-2 years of service, getting out, and re-integrating into civilian work. He doesn't have to do anything military-wise for the rest of his life.

A professional soldier is looking at 5 years minimum with another few years of ready reserve. And during all that he is dependent on the military paying him, helping him with home and car insurance, providing him lifetime medical benefits (that civilian society won't give him, like in the US), and pension money. Anything that he does, any act of rebellion that tarnishes his record can screw him out of that, so there is a lot more reluctance on his part to stick his neck out. When you join a professional army like the US Army, you are basically planning your entire future.