Is the decline of U.S. socialism due in part to the pseudo-leftism of the Democrats?

[Le Socialiste]

The vast majority of people I know often mistake the Democratic Party as leftist. This belief is widespread, resulting in the decline of genuine leftist parties and organizations, as well as the idea that Democrats are "secret commies" (a common enough phrase from my father's side of the family). How can we, as socialists, counter these claims - aside from tackling one case at a time? Would love to hear some ideas.

[Jose Gracchus]

What evidence do you have it is the part-and-parcel 'existance' of the Democratic Party of the United States, that results in the sorry state of the left?

A meaningful answer to this question would involve a comparative historical study of the U.S. labor movement its analogues in other countries. In most other countries, even First World states, fully-fledged workers' parties became major figures in elective politics. Those Second International workers' parties spawned revolutionary parties and militant organizations, often quite large and influential themselves with electoral performance. Even while this was happening elsewhere, it failed in the United States. Even social democratic organizations remained marginal. The only large organizational building was the AFL business craft unionism and later (admittedly with substantial socialist and communist organizating) the CIO industrial union. However, these were subject to constant, and escalating repressions.

[MarxistMan]

I think that there is a big problem in the left of USA and of all over the world. And that problem is the reformist-left (progressives).

The progressives have kidnapped the socialism ideology, marxism, the symbols and logos of Marx for their Political Parties. We all know that progressives are social-democrat and capitalists (centrists). And not leftists.

But average joes out there think that progressives like Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Michael Parenti, Amy Goodman, Zapatero, Michelle Bachelet, Felipe Gonzalez, Naomi Klein and Alexander Cockburn are socialists.

But progressives are not socialists. Because to be a real socialist, a person has to be marxist, anarchist, leninist, trotskist, bakuninist, maoists and fans and followers of the founders of political socialism of the 1800s and early 1900s.

Thanks, i would like to see more comments here, on how progressives have destroyed the real-left in USA and in other countries

.




The vast majority of people I know often mistake the Democratic Party as leftist. This belief is widespread, resulting in the decline of genuine leftist parties and organizations, as well as the idea that Democrats are "secret commies" (a common enough phrase from my father's side of the family). How can we, as socialists, counter these claims - aside from tackling one case at a time? Would love to hear some ideas.

[Savage]

But average joes out there think that progressives like Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Michael Parenti, Amy Goodman, Zapatero, Michelle Bachelet, Felipe Gonzalez, Naomi Klein and Alexander Cockburn are socialists.
.
Isn't Michael Parenti a Stalinist? I doubt the 'average joe' would know who he is anyway...

[MarxistMan]

I think that one way or the other americans will turn to socialism and will become socialists. At least older americans will have to become socialists just for the security of their health and life.

What i mean is that many older americans with health problems one or way or ther other won't be able to be saved from health problems under the capitalist system of expensive health care costs. Health might become more expensive a lot more, because capitalist rulers like here in USA and Europe will be forced to do cuts to welfare and free medical services.

The problem of USA is that USA and most countries have lots of young people and many young people people who are under 30 in USA are not worried at all about their health, and they think that they will be healthy and young and strong forever, they are too existentialists, they dont have dental problems, they dont have diabetes, they have low cholesterol levels, and they don't have tumors or cancer.

But after 50 problems will rise, but in this damn privatized health system they won't be able to treat all their problems, because like i said the US government might be forced to cut many medicaid and medicare programs in the future so they will either die young or live a very unhappy life with bad dental health and bad health. So if socialist parties in USA tell the masses that they will have cheaper or free medical services under a socialist system in USA they might turn to socialism just to save their life

.



Isn't Michael Parenti a Stalinist? I doubt the 'average joe' would know who he is anyway...

[Property Is Robbery]

Isn't Michael Parenti a Stalinist? I doubt the 'average joe' would know who he is anyway...
He's definitely a Marxist

[Jimmie Higgins]

The vast majority of people I know often mistake the Democratic Party as leftist. This belief is widespread, resulting in the decline of genuine leftist parties and organizations, as well as the idea that Democrats are "secret commies" (a common enough phrase from my father's side of the family). How can we, as socialists, counter these claims - aside from tackling one case at a time? Would love to hear some ideas.

Through struggle. Liberal politicians will say nice things that appeal to workers, but when you go on strike or protest against the cuts or wars that your Democratic friend in Washington also says are regrettable but then that politician also supports a system that (or he directly) calls out the state guard or police on your fellow workers/protesters... well people tend to loose these illusions quick.

It happened with Eugene Debs. It happened with the Civil Rights movement and it happened with the anti-Vietnam-War movement.

[Robocommie]

But average joes out there think that progressives like Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Michael Parenti, Amy Goodman, Zapatero, Michelle Bachelet, Felipe Gonzalez, Naomi Klein and Alexander Cockburn are socialists.


Naomi Klein and Michael Parenti ARE socialists. And you should show some respect to Amy Goodman, Democracy Now! is one of the best no-bullshit media sources we have. Chris Hedges deserves respect too.

[MarxistMan]

Hello indeed they are socialists. Sorry I didn't mean to throw them in the same group of bourgeoise-reformists centrists like Jesse Jackson. But you are right Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzales do attack The Democratic Party and Barack Obama. And Michael Parenti and Chris Hedges have written articles against progressive liberals. So like you said they are leftists socialists, not centrist-liberals.

My critisism of many of the leftist intellectuals of USA like Chris Hedges, Michael Parenti, Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman is really that they are not strong political activists. They do write real good leftist, socialist articles and critisism against US imperialism and against capitalism. However i think that where they fail miserabily is in their weak political activism and their distance from the US workers unions and the US workers parties. I think that many of the leftist intellectual writters should be a little bit more activist, and join Workers Parties, instead of just writting articles, and selling books.

.

.

.


Naomi Klein and Michael Parenti ARE socialists. And you should show some respect to Amy Goodman, Democracy Now! is one of the best no-bullshit media sources we have. Chris Hedges deserves respect too.

[Amphictyonis]

Hello indeed they are socialists. Sorry I didn't mean to throw them in the same group of bourgeoise-reformists centrists like Jesse Jackson. But you are right Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzales do attack The Democratic Party and Barack Obama.
I tuned out in 2008-9 when Amy Goodman was pimping Obama like a man beast with with ten vagina's in a sea port full of drunken sailors. Maybe the good people at KPFA/ Pacifica radio will learn from this Obama mess and not be the mouthpiece for the next stooge come election time. It almost seems as if the bourgeoisie played the race card and we all fell for it to a certian degree? Genius. Pure genius. Not sure what they have left in their grab bag to marginalize the left/maintain the facade of democracy. At the end of the day the problem is with the system, even if Obama was a flag waving communist her would get nothing done. It's not up to so politician to end capitalism it's up to us and we're dropping the ball.

[NGNM85]

The vast majority of people I know often mistake the Democratic Party as leftist. This belief is widespread, resulting in the decline of genuine leftist parties and organizations,

Technically, the Democratic Party is Left-Wing. They are Center-Left.


as well as the idea that Democrats are "secret commies" (a common enough phrase from my father's side of the family). How can we, as socialists, counter these claims - aside from tackling one case at a time? Would love to hear some ideas.

This is a textbook ploy. It reframes the spectrum of debate to a narrow range, and no further. If the Healthcare Bill is a radical socialist ploy, how could we possibly advocate anything more than that? That would just be lunacy. It's like I was saying on the other thread about 'Judicial activism', that only applies to the Left. When Antonin Scalia tries to overturn Roe v. Wade, that's not 'Judicial activism.' These are just rhetorical games, that, while exceedingly simple, are effective, if repeated often enough.

[#FF0000]

I'd chalk the "decline of US socialism" bit up to the fact that the working class has been beaten back relentlessly over the course of the entire 20th century.

How relevant we are is proportional to the "level" of class struggle taking place. The idea that we need a PR campaign or something is kind of missing the point.

[Salyut]

My critisism of many of the leftist intellectuals of USA like Chris Hedges, Michael Parenti, Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman is really that they are not strong political activists.

This isn't strong enough? (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/16/135-antiwar-protesters-arrested-white-house/)

[MarxistMan]

Hello, listen to this short interview in MP3 by leaders of the Revolutionary Communist Party of USA Michael Slate and Bob Avakian talking about how can we have a popular socialist revolution in the USA with so much capitalist marketing and advertising around.

How can this be a popular revolution when so much is lined up against it ... are you nuts?: 35 minutes / 23.9 meg (mp3):

http://bobavakian.net/sound/slate/popular_revolution_are_you_nuts.mp3 (http://bobavakian.net/sound/slate/popular_revolution_are_you_nuts.mp3)


.




.


The vast majority of people I know often mistake the Democratic Party as leftist. This belief is widespread, resulting in the decline of genuine leftist parties and organizations, as well as the idea that Democrats are "secret commies" (a common enough phrase from my father's side of the family). How can we, as socialists, counter these claims - aside from tackling one case at a time? Would love to hear some ideas.

[southernmissfan]

Technically, the Democratic Party is Left-Wing. They are Center-Left.



This is a textbook ploy. It reframes the spectrum of debate to a narrow range, and no further. If the Healthcare Bill is a radical socialist ploy, how could we possibly advocate anything more than that? That would just be lunacy. It's like I was saying on the other thread about 'Judicial activism', that only applies to the Left. When Antonin Scalia tries to overturn Roe v. Wade, that's not 'Judicial activism.' These are just rhetorical games, that, while exceedingly simple, are effective, if repeated often enough.

I agree with the second part of your post but even considering the Democratic Party "center-left" is a bit of a stretch. They would be to the right of most mainstream conservative parties in Western Europe. The political spectrum in the US is so far skewed to the right that the "left" most mainstream options are still right wing, just less so.

[Bokonon]

I agree with the second part of your post but even considering the Democratic Party "center-left" is a bit of a stretch. They would be to the right of most mainstream conservative parties in Western Europe. The political spectrum in the US is so far skewed to the right that the "left" most mainstream options are still right wing, just less so.

This is true. The Democratic party cannot be considered truly leftist as many of its politicians are only slightly different from Republicans and most of the two party's differences pertain to social matters rather than economic. Legitimate leftist parties have almost no influence in United States politics. Sad but true.