Is Immigration Really a Problem?

[Havet]

Well, according to this guy, yeah

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He shows data to somehow "prove" that the current system is not sustainable and we need "immigration policy"

But I just don't understand where all those people are coming from. He also suggests cutting immigration to replacement level (only letting those the same amount that went out the last year, or something similar)

Closing borders is only really a solution that benefits the few. On the other hand, just keeping them open can have its consequences. IMO, we should tackle the reason why apparently so many people want to move to the USA, precisely by improving the conditions in their current countries, main infrastructure, technological development, social development, so on.

And this is already happening slowly across Asia. East Asia (China, Korea, Hongkong, Taiwan) already have birth rate of 1.3 births per woman (sustainable level is 2.1). Soon they will join Russia and Japan with shrinking population.

And this isnt mentioning any potential territory expansions to the sea (seasteading) and space (international space stations, living in other planets, etc). If the guy goes as far as 2100, well, I can dream too can't I?

What do you think?

[Ocean Seal]

What these anti-immigration people always try to do, is scare people in believing that immigrants are some kind of scourge who will morph their country beyond belief. And they also like the American-way rhetoric, and that immigrants are going to change this without realizing that the American-way is substantially flawed, and that the reason that the immigrants are here is because of the American way. Why do Mexicans immigrate? Ask yourself this, are there narco-terrorist gangs with equal power to those in Mexico? Are the poverty levels equal? And how did it get to be this way? Was it not the United States which signed into effect treaties with the Mexican ruling class so that they could trade for resources at an unfair rate, to make a profit? Was it not the United States and other Imperial nations which attempted to keep Mexico from industrializing, by supporting backwards imperial puppet dictators?

[danyboy27]

no

[brigadista]

non

[Havet]

What these anti-immigration people always try to do, is scare people in believing that immigrants are some kind of scourge who will morph their country beyond belief.

Well, as I understood, the main argument of the guy in the video was that it would be extremely costly to finance the institutions and infrastructure to keep all those immigrants inside the country (schools, hospitals, roads, cars, food, etc), and that the easiest solution would be to just close the tap.

[BIG BROTHER]

We the workers are not a load on anybody, we create wealth down in Mexico and here in the US.

The one big thing the US could do to fix this issue would be that for once in its life it keeps hands off other countries and gets the fuck out really.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Numbers are objective. How people interpret, analyze, and present them are biased. That video is xenophobic bullshit for people that are too weak of mind, culture, and education to know any better.

P.S. The real immigration problem started in 1492.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Immigration is not an issue. Millions of undocumented workers is.

[Palingenisis]

Immigration is not an issue. Millions of undocumented workers is.

Why?

[Vanguard1917]

What we're seeing more and more is the language and logic of environmentalism ('sustainability', 'finite resources', 'limits to growth', etc.) being employed to attack immigrants. The old arguments against immigration -- centrally, overtly racist arguments -- have lost their much of their prestige, and what we're left with are a bunch of boffins and number crunchers who think they know what's best for society and immigrants because they've supposedly 'done the math'.

But they're no less narrow-minded than the traditional racists.

[Thug Lessons]

I'm not sure why, but I watched the whole video. I guess I have too much time on my hands. Apparently this speaker's strategy is to wow the crowd with oversized graphs demonstrating population growth as a result of immigration, which would roughly double the US population over the next century. This growth is judged to be unsustainable, both in environmental and quality of life terms. Now, he's got a point when it comes to the environment, but the claims about quality of life separate from that don't make any sense. As he himself admits, the population has nearly quadrupled over the previous century, which would make the growth rate in the next century about half of what it was previously. Quality of life did not decrease over the last century, and in fact increased dramatically. Aside from the environmental concerns, which is something the US should move seriously to address, this is nothing but nativist scare-mongering.

Now, that's not to say that I'm uncritical of the standard radical leftist view of immigration, i.e. that it's always a good thing. The current immigration policies in the US and Europe encourage the emigration of skilled and educated workers from poor countries, contributing to a 'brain drain' the further hinders development in these nations, while sharply restricting immigration from the third world working class. Open borders or unrestricted immigration isn't a solution here either, as it would only serve to promote the 'brain drain' and would ignite nativist sentiment in a way that would ultimately prove disastrous for the left. It's a short-sighted policy and people who advocate it have succumbed to the trap of accepting easy, simple solutions that are all but impossible to implement effectively, which puts them on the same intellectual, (though not moral), ground as right-wing blowhards who tell us that we need to deport all the illegal immigrants.

So, essentially, there are problems with immigration, but like most international issues they stem mostly from global inequality rather than anything intrinsic.

[danyboy27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZVOU5bfHrM

rock beat scisor.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Why?

A few million workers not having any legal rights is an issue.

[Magón]

What these anti-immigration people always try to do, is scare people in believing that immigrants are some kind of scourge who will morph their country beyond belief. And they also like the American-way rhetoric, and that immigrants are going to change this without realizing that the American-way is substantially flawed, and that the reason that the immigrants are here is because of the American way. Why do Mexicans immigrate? Ask yourself this, are there narco-terrorist gangs with equal power to those in Mexico? Are the poverty levels equal? And how did it get to be this way? Was it not the United States which signed into effect treaties with the Mexican ruling class so that they could trade for resources at an unfair rate, to make a profit? Was it not the United States and other Imperial nations which attempted to keep Mexico from industrializing, by supporting backwards imperial puppet dictators?

It's funny, because most "illegal" immigrants (Mexicans at least), don't even care about the "American Way" or the "American Dream". That's all just to keep them covered, and so it becomes the basic slogan. They, like everyone else in the world, really just want a job to pay for food, clothes, etc. and see the US as being the closest place to allow them that.

Oh, and this isn't meant to say that you meant "illegal" Mexicans are here for the "Dream" or way of life, I just wanted to point out that they're not for those things. Most of the time, these conversations don't really lead to that realization. ;)

[Amphictyonis]

"Free trade" agreements that impoverish South America are problems. Greedy capitalists who want "illegal" workers who can't unionize is a problem. Private property laws being introduced in South America is a problem. If you look at Marx's description of primitive accumulation the same thing is happening in Mexico and other South American nations today. The lands are being "enclosed" which forces people into the market economy BUT the market economy in much of South America cannot support all of the people so many have no choice but to come up north. At the end of the day it's all about profits over people. Both South Americans and US citizens.

[NGNM85]

I'll raise you one...

Aviva Chomsky on Immigration Myths Part 1 of 5

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[RGacky3]

THe thing is CAPITALISM is unsustainable, now eventually one day immigration COULD become a problem, but the other problems of Capitalism would cause a collapse way before immigration ever becomes a problem.

So its kind of like telling a 25 year old person with cancer that he has to work out more so he has a healthy heart when he's in his 70s.

[brigadista]

its big business..

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[Bud Struggle]

Immigration is really solving the problem posed by the Maoist Third Worldists to some extent. It is bringing the underprivledged people of the world into countries where they can get a better standard of living. Do it long enough and if enough people become involved--the inequalities of the world will begin to eaven out a bit.

[RGacky3]

Do it long enough and if enough people become involved--the inequalities of the world will begin to eaven out a bit.

NO Bud thats not what happens, the poor underpriviledged people that come to the US stay that way and are used for cheap labor, and when theres too much ... immigration raids. And the poor countries they come from don't get richer at all, it does'nt even out.

[Bud Struggle]

NO Bud thats not what happens, the poor underpriviledged people that come to the US stay that way and are used for cheap labor, and when theres too much ... immigration raids. And the poor countries they come from don't get richer at all, it does'nt even out.

Sure it does--they send money home to their native countries--I think Mexico's largest source of income is people sending money back to their families.


The Mexican citizens cross our border illegally. Some of them find work, and many of them send their earnings back to Mexico. Those earnings have added up to nearly $17 billion in the past year. Remittances, as they're called, are expected to become Mexico's primary source of income this year, surpassing the amount of money that Mexico makes on oil exports for the first time ever.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/21/ldt.01.html

It works out well for them. Hey, and don't forget you are talking to the son of immigrants. ;) Some people comming to America, the ones that are smart and work hard--they do quite well.

[RGacky3]

I think Mexico's largest source of income is people sending money back to their families.


Your gonna have to source that because thats freaking rediculous.


Sure it does--they send money home to their native countries

Does'nt even begin to match the money lost through neo-liberalism, not even close.


Some people comming to America, the ones that are smart and work hard--they do quite well.

ANd you call me delusional.

[Bud Struggle]

Your gonna have to source that because thats freaking rediculous. I DID! Right under my remark. :) Your homies are doing pretty good because of America. :D


Does'nt even begin to match the money lost through neo-liberalism, not even close. That's your theory.


ANd you call me delusional. Sigh, maybe it isn't American exceptionalism. Maybe it's just Bud Struggle exceptionalism that I'm talking about. Would that be easier for you to take? :D

[RGacky3]

I DID! Right under my remark. :) Your homies are doing pretty good because of America. :D


Oil is Mexicos biggest source of revenue, money from immigrants is second (http://www.sify.com/news/remittances-to-mexico-down-12-percent-news-international-ke3labhebha.html), so your right it is of major significants. But imagen how much better the economy would be doing if they dropped neo liberalism, and favored their own industry.


That's your theory.


Well, it can be tracked financially, look at the countries in south America that dropped neoliberalism, they are doing much better.


Sigh, maybe it isn't American exceptionalism. Maybe it's just Bud Struggle exceptionalism that I'm talking about. Would that be easier for you to take? :D

Yup, there is not such thing as American exceptionalism.

Most immigrants, even the majority of them that work hard, even the smart ones, don't make it, and never have that chance.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Does'nt even begin to match the money lost through neo-liberalism, not even close.

I'm sorry Gack, but you just called out Bud for not sourcing a claim you saw as ridiculous and he saw as common knowledge. To amke a claim like you did would require a source as well.

I'm not calling you out or that I disagree with you, just saying that it seems to happen a lot on this site where one site of the argument is repeatedly denounced for lack of factual information, while the flip side of the argument is seen as common sense.

[brigadista]

see the vid i posted ^^^:):)

[RGacky3]

well, thats why you gotta back them up if its called out, I honestly did not believe that money from immigrants going back to mexico was mexicos biggest source of income.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yeah I thought he was bullshitting as well, I always thought oil was by far #1.

[Obzervi]

No. Human beings have the right to live wherever they want. This is revenge for hundreds of years of imperialism.

[Havet]

No. Human beings have the right to live wherever they want. This is revenge for hundreds of years of imperialism.

What if someone claims the right to live in the room you now occupy, and there is not enough room for both? Do notice i'm not defending the guy from the video, or imperialism.

[Dean]

I'm sorry Gack, but you just called out Bud for not sourcing a claim you saw as ridiculous and he saw as common knowledge. To amke a claim like you did would require a source as well.

That's assuming that its a contested point. I tend to assume that people are familiar with a lot of the transfer of wealth and otherwise unequal positions of leverage across major national lines. Mexico is absolutely a source for cheap labor, and that means that not much buying power is transferred there regionally. Is this point honestly contested?

[Dean]

What if someone claims the right to live in the room you now occupy, and there is not enough room for both? Do notice i'm not defending the guy from the video, or imperialism.

This is one of the problems in the Israeli-Palestinian debate. While it should be uncontested that Palestinians deserve the right of return, and that the unequal distribution of resources and land needs to be reconciled, the fact is that growing up and spending your entire life there - as many Israelis have - ought to mean something. Its utterly foolish to think that the scales can be
"tilted" just one way or the other and everything will be fine. But maintaining the current dispensation of land is untenable, as well.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Roy Beck and Numbers USA are extremely biased and xenophobic.

[Havet]

This is one of the problems in the Israeli-Palestinian debate. While it should be uncontested that Palestinians deserve the right of return, and that the unequal distribution of resources and land needs to be reconciled, the fact is that growing up and spending your entire life there - as many Israelis have - ought to mean something. Its utterly foolish to think that the scales can be
"tilted" just one way or the other and everything will be fine. But maintaining the current dispensation of land is untenable, as well.

Good point. What would you propose as a viable solution to that scenario?

[Revolution starts with U]

Complete and total repeal of all anti-immigration laws

[RGacky3]

What if someone claims the right to live in the room you now occupy, and there is not enough room for both? Do notice i'm not defending the guy from the video, or imperialism.

Thast a moot point, because thats not the situation at all, no one would immigrate unless it was econmically or physically neccessary.

Neo-Liberalism creates an enviroment that destroys certain economies, if capital can travel freely, than so should labor.

Neo-liberalism has caused WAY more poblems than immigration every will.


Mexico is absolutely a source for cheap labor, and that means that not much buying power is transferred there regionally. Is this point honestly contested?

Thats exactly the point, money goes back to Mexico, but thats only after buisinesses have been dismantled and the profit from Mexican companies ends up over seas and not reinvested in Mexico.

So the situation in Mexico is not a natural one, as if without neoliberalism immigration would still be nessesary, there is a direct corrolation.

[Dean]

Good point. What would you propose as a viable solution to that scenario?

As I've said before, an extensive dialogue needs to be opened. It would really have to be between them, and preferably with none of the extant power structures exerting their control.

Two of the biggest threats to this is the character of the settler movement, which defines a lot of the psychology among them, and the Israeli corporate-government sector, which has a major stake in the perpetuation and expansion of the settlements - one one hand, as "facts on the ground" which expand the value of any future border agreement, and on the other, the large value that the exploitation of natural resources, cheap land and cheap labor engender.

Clearly, these interests will have to be excised if concerned parties are going to engage in negotiations on a level playing field.

[Amphictyonis]

I'll raise you one...

Aviva Chomsky on Immigration Myths Part 1 of 5

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I'm starting to think you're a tad obsessed with Chomsky. I guess it's better than being fixated on William Buckley.

[Rafiq]

Borders and Countries are the problem. Not immagration. The earth belongs to us humans.

We do not cross the border.

The border crosses us.

[Viet Minh]

Without Capitalism, or more specifically Capitalist-induced inequality (to put it mildly) there would be very little immigration or emigration.

[Jazzratt]

Anyone who geniunely thinks immigration is a problem can execute a spit-roasted robert kilroy dicklemon.

[Pierre L'amour]

"Migration refers to any movement of humans (or animals) from one area to another. Immigration refers to such movements by humans when they involve crossing established state boundaries and are regulated by the governments of the territories they involve. So immigration really exists only under the modern state system" - Aviva Chomsky

There are no "American" jobs. The economy of today is so globally integrated, jobs really have no national identity. Corporations need a workforce to exploit. In first world countries it is difficult for corporations to exploit the local workers without bad press (even when they control the media) so they must either outsource their work to third world countries run by dictators that hardly care about working conditions... Or, they can dehumanize a specific group of people within the first world country they are based in. Before, this was slaves, then it was eastern European migrant workers, women, and now it's Latino migrant workers. There is little to no correlation to to the influx of migrant workers and the amount of jobs available.
"The relationship between population size and the number of jobs available is not quite as simple as it might seem. In fact the number of jobs is not finite, it is elastic, and affected by many factors. Population growth creates jobs at the same time that it provides more people to fill jobs, and population decline decreases the number of jobs at the same time as it provides fewer people to work at them." - Aviva Chomsky
Much of the current unemployment rates in the united states can be traced back to Ronald Reagan and his successors, major sections of the economy were deregulated, and cutbacks in in federal and social spending. Deindustrialization occurred, manufacturing jobs were sent over seas, and the new jobs were all low paying service work.
Noncitizens pay taxes, live in communities, use services. Yet they are denied political participation. Borders are a sham! We are all citizens of the planet!
"Everyone has the right is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status." Article two, The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And article six states "Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law"

[black magick hustla]

i feel so strongly about immigration. i dont know how to go about it. my whole family is made up of ex pats. i piss on the border and on maps to honor my dead and rotting ancestors and as someone who has experiences two entirely different worlds