Should other countries be helping the U.S. in Iraq

[kitty44]

So now Bush wants help in Iraq.....guess what???? No one wants to help him......as far as most of the world is concerned this is the U.S.'s problem. They went in under false pretenses stating that Saddam had WMD, which by the way, none have been found as yet. It was an illegal war.....and that fascist Bush knows it......a country can't just go into another country and start a war unless there is a direct threat to the homeland.......which there wasn't. He talks about human rights violations......maybe he needs to look in his own backyard before criticizing other countries. Well guess what Bush.....you started this war so you can clean up your own mess......don't forget to take care of your troops as they'll eventually die of cancer because of continued exposure to depleted uranium......but then again so will the Iraqi civilians that you said wouldn't be hurt. It's no wonder the Iraqi's are attacking and killing American soldiers. I am so glad that Canada decided to stay out of the war (one of the few good decisions the prime minister made) and think for themselves. Any president that makes the statement that if your not with us then you are against us is an asshole and shouldn't be president.

[革命者]

er.. hear, hear&#33; <_<

:)

Welcome to the forum, kitty&#33;

[Unrelenting Steve]

:D I like Kitty already, nice entrance

[Vinny Rafarino]

I won&#39;t disagree on the post however I wil point out that depleted uranium does not produce enough radioactivity to be considered a threat to the human body, even with depleted uranium fragments imbedded under the skin due to explosions. Simple "handling" of the metal will have absolutelu no affects whatsoever as the strongest radiation particle emmitted by depleted uranium are alpha particles, which the human skin blocks natuarally. The beta particles emmitted by depleted uranium can be blocked by simple clothing while DU&#39;s gamma particle emmision is so low that there is a better chance of radioactive over-exposure from our own sun.

[redstarshining]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 8 2003, 07:13 PM
I won&#39;t disagree on the post however I wil point out that depleted uranium does not produce enough radioactivity to be considered a threat to the human body, even with depleted uranium fragments imbedded under the skin due to explosions. Simple "handling" of the metal will have absolutelu no affects whatsoever as the strongest radiation particle emmitted by depleted uranium are alpha particles, which the human skin blocks natuarally. The beta particles emmitted by depleted uranium can be blocked by simple clothing while DU&#39;s gamma particle emmision is so low that there is a better chance of radioactive over-exposure from our own sun.

COMRADE RAF, where did you get that information? Do you have any sources ( websites )? I&#39;m not really educated enough in physics to judge it for myself, I&#39;m just curious, and generally mistrustful when it comes to controversial subjects like this one. Until very recently the german army claimed that radar waves were unable to penetrate the human skin, today we know that direct exposure to the transmitter causes cancer.

A couple of months ago I read somewhere ( I think it was Junge Welt daily newspaper - don&#39;t take my word for it though, I just quickly skimmed through that article ) that a team of independent scientists that travelled to Iraq found out that the gamma radiation emitted by DU fragments there was indeed about 10 times as high as claimed by the US army. Don&#39;t remember any details though.

any information would be appreciated,

thanks



argh... my english skills went on holiday, today

[EneME]

Seriously..I can&#39;t believe the US has the audacity (sp?) to ask for help from other nations when they totally ignored the UN when they were trying to justify this war to the UN. They went in with totally no disregard of the international community (and human life)...and NOW the US wants HELP? lol damn they have some nuts to ask after calling the rest of the world cowards for not backing them up....I think they should go through it on their own, let the conservatives feel the economic weight that it&#39;s costing us in the USA. Then maybe we can get on to REAL necessary impeachments...of Bush

[Inti]

would be nice to see Bush bite the sour apple for once.. :D Fuck him.. or not.. Ewwwwwwwwwwww, imagine that he actually got laid a couple of times.

[187]

It would be nice if the international community assisted for the general welfare of the Iraqi&#39;s.... They shouldn&#39;t have to continue to suffer because of international spite towards the US. <_<

[Inti]

I think Bush and Blair should pay for every single thing..

[redstarshining]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 10:04 PM
It would be nice if the international community assisted for the general welfare of the Iraqi&#39;s.... They shouldn&#39;t have to continue to suffer because of international spite towards the US. <_<
True, but that would -rightfully- be seen as a subsequent legitimization of the war by the general public. Also I&#39;m pretty sure that Iraq could sustain itself after initial help from the UN, it has plenty of resources after all.

I doubt that there will be anything like a general welfare plan for Iraqis, the US will rebuild the infrastructure, that&#39;s it. Anything else they spend will probably be direct investments into US owned or controlled corporations. Participation by the UN after initial economic stabilization would probably mean the same thing, only on a larger scale, since each country would follow it&#39;s own economic interests.

Bush and Blair should pay reparation, then the US should pull out of Iraq. Peacekeepers should only be provided by independent countries, not by the aggressors themselves and only with active iraqi participation. All foreign investments ( I&#39;m not talking about humanitarian aid or investments into infrastructure here&#33; ) should be blocked, until the country is economically stable. I know, this is very unrealistic, just the way I&#39;d like to see things go.

[elijahcraig]

I agree with most of what has been said in this thread.

[truthaddict11]

Also I&#39;m pretty sure that Iraq could sustain itself after initial help from the UN, it has plenty of resources after all.
The UN is just a lackey to US imperialism. The UN, US and all occupiers need to leave the Iraq now.

[kitty44]

Comrade RAF where do you get your information????? Have you seen what has happened to the Iraqi babies born to the women exposed to this depleted uranium????? Birth defects.....open your eyes RAF......I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve heard of the gulf war syndrome......if you haven&#39;t better do your research. The american soldiers were told not to expose themselves to depleted uranium because it causes cancer. Guess what??? The Iraqi&#39;s are suffering the same fate and will continue to do so for many years to come.
As far as I&#39;m concerned the U.S. and Britain should foot the bill for the restoration of Iraq.....more so America as it was Bush who pushed for the war (Britain is just a bunch of sheep.....what one does the rest follow meekly). Blair will pay for his part.....he&#39;s on the hot seat in his own country. Both Bush and Blair should both be put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity (after all they would do that to Bin Laden if they can ever catch the guy) or at the very least be impeached. Just remember Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq......let the americans and british fix it after all they thought we were cowards when most of the world refused to support his war......and they did all of the damage&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Blibblob]

I think the UN should do it. UN and the Red Cross. However, since the UN gets to pay for it(&#39;cause Bush is not going to get that 90 Billion dollars he wants from Congress, I don&#39;t think each American wants to pay 300 bucks), the UN should order the US out, every single company should be ordered out, from McDonalds to Shell. The US started the mess, and wont be able to finish it, they should leave. It would destroy the US&#39; reputation and get those imperialist bastards out of another country.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Do my research eh. How about 4 years of graduate school kitty. I&#39;m sorry but Uranium 238 (depleted uranium) simply does not have the capacity to cause these diseases that are being claimed. This is bullshit, plain and simple.

These same "sources" citing the big U-238 "scare" are the same that advise the Government "secretely" places "natural" uranium in place of U-238. Morons.

Number one "natural uranium" (called "enriched Uranium" by educated people) is 99.275% U-238. U-235 is only a small amount of the uranium ore is fissionable and is useless for any application beyond nuclear power and the creation of nuclear warheads. The density of mass required by an object to give it "armour piercing properties" at very high velocities is a trait of U-238 alone.

In other words, it&#39;s bullshit. Perhaps it is you who should come down off the high-horse kitty and actually do a bit of research before spouting this bollocks, or better yet, go to school.

Remember kids, our side is heavy into propaganda too. And guess what? Almost ANYTHING can cause cancer if the doseage or exposure level is high enough. Shoot yourself a vein full of lead-214 and see how you feel in the morning kiddo.


Uranium-238 (Depleted Uranium or Uranium I)

Atomic Mass: 238.0507826 +- 0.0000021 amu
Excess Mass: 47303.664 +- 1.980 keV
Binding Energy: 1801694.651 +- 2.006 keV
Beta Decay Energy: B- -147.065 +- 1.145 keV

Spin: 0+
Half life: 4.468E+9 Y ( 0.0671 % )
Mode of decay: SF
Branch ratio: 0.5E-4
Mode of decay: Alpha to Th-234
Decay energy: 4.270 MeV
( 1.1236 % )
Mode of decay: SF
Branch ratio: 0.015


Possible parent nuclides:
Beta from Pa-238
Alpha from Pu-242

Total Cross Section

at 0.0253 eV = 12.09 b
Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 11.77 b
at 14 MeV = 5.805 b
Fission spectrum avg. = 7.786 b
g-factor = 1.0994
Elastic Scattering Cross Section

at 0.0253 eV = 9.360 b
Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 9.356 b
at 14 MeV = 2.704 b
Fission spectrum avg. = 4.804 b
g-factor = 1.1279
Total Inelastic Cross Section

at 14 MeV = 698.3 mb
Fission spectrum avg. = 2.595 b
(n,2n) Cross Section

at 14 MeV = 910.0 mb
Fission spectrum avg. = 12.07 mb
(n,3n) Cross Section

at 14 MeV = 350.0 mb
Fission spectrum avg. = 61.90 micro barn
Total Fission Cross Section

at 0.0253 eV = 11.77 micro barn
Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 10.45 micro barn
Resonance integral = 2.020 b
at 14 MeV = 1.136 b
Fission spectrum avg. = 308.4 mb
g-factor = 1.0015
Radiative Capture Cross Section

at 0.0253 eV = 2.717 b
Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 2.414 b
Resonance integral = 278.1 b
at 14 MeV = 1.943 mb
Fission spectrum avg. = 66.40 mb
g-factor = 1.0024

[kitty44]

RAF I did go to school.....spent six years in post secondary school and I work in the health care profession. If it didn&#39;t cause cancer why was the U.S. so worried about it??? It&#39;s bullshit if you think almost anything causes cancer......overexposure to certain toxins/chemicals cause cancer......just like overexposure to the sun causes cancer. The country I live in isn&#39;t pumping out propaganda about DU......that&#39;s the U.S. and Britain and who in their right mind would listen to a fascist like Bush???? You and I both know that birth defects can happen but not with the frequency that they have been happening in Iraq since Gulf War I. So get off your high horse and come back to earth.....these things are happening and the U.S. is denying it. All they&#39;re interested in protecting in Iraq is the oil......they don&#39;t give a damn about the people.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I never said it does not cause cancer What I said was it is not responsible for what the media is saying. Sure, If you had a gramme of it implanted under your skin, you would probably develop a tumor.

I would reckon the yanks worry more about the media coverage of this crap more than actual cases of cancer that are absolutely proven to vbe caused by "exposure" to U-238.

My feet are firmly planted on the soil friend, you on the other hand, I&#39;m not to sure about.



Pssssst&#33;&#33;&#33;

I bet you think Marijuana makes you go insane too eh?

[kitty44]

You seem to forget that babies in the womb don&#39;t have the immune system that adults have and exposure to chemicals before they are born is damaging. And with your education you should know that.
I could care less what the american media has to say.....their information is a bunch of bullshit based on very little facts.
From what I can see your feet aren&#39;t planted firmly on the soil......you don&#39;t seem to like it if people disagree with you.....which I&#39;m entitled to do. If you don&#39;t like it.....oh well.....that&#39;s your problem.
And no, I don&#39;t believe that marijuana makes you go mad....I&#39;m a strong supporter for the legalization of marijuana for both medical and recreational use.....as long as it&#39;s used responsibly.......as in don&#39;t smoke and drive. :ph34r:

[(*]

Honestly, the only reason the US wants international troops is to keep the number of dead US soldiers from escalating.

I do however think that the international community should step in. Perhaps they could provide the Iraqi&#39;s with better security from both other Iraqi&#39;s and trigger-happy US soldiers.

[kitty44]

Originally posted by (*&#33;@Sep 9 2003, 01:03 AM
Honestly, the only reason the US wants international troops is to keep the number of dead US soldiers from escalating.

I do however think that the international community should step in. Perhaps they could provide the Iraqi&#39;s with better security from both other Iraqi&#39;s and trigger-happy US soldiers.
Malcolm you are totally right about what you are saying.....the U.S. doesn&#39;t want to lose anymore soldiers but the yanks aren&#39;t going to get much sympathy from the rest of the world.....
On the one hand I agree that the international community should get involved to protect the Iraqi&#39;s but on the other hand why should the international community foot the bill for cleaning up the mess the yanks, brits and anyone else who attacked Iraq caused??? If anything, those responsible for this war.......the yanks, brits etc should clean it up under the scrutiny of the rest of the world.......or let the peace keepers come in and give the bill to Bush and Blair. And when they&#39;re done cleaning Iraq up charge all involved with war crimes and crimes against humanity. :ph34r:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Number one, uranium is not a chemical, it is an element.

Second, the exposure we are worried about here is the exposure of human tissue to alpha, gamma, a beta radiation particles. These partlicles are also not chemicals.

Third, radiation is not a virus or bug and therefore the immune system has very limited relevance if any at all. Birth defect related to radiation exposure are genetic as severe doses of radiation can also alter specific DNA gene sequences. Again, nothing to do with the immune system.

Back to U-238 exposure,

To give you a real life assessment of uranium-238 and 235, here are the dose coefficients, a description of dose levels and an individual dose calculator. As you can clearly see by this information, some serious spin-jobs have been used by the press (not shocking)

U-238 and U-235 dose coefficients (http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rdfi60.html)

Uranium Toxicity (http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/utox.html)

Radiation Exposure from Depleted Uranium ( U-238) Weapons (http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/ruxd.html)

Uranium Radiation Individual Dose Calculator (http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rdcu.html)

[kitty44]

RAF I know that uranium is an element......I was using chemicals/viruses as an example. When a woman/man is exposed to enough radiation it damages the eggs/sperm therefore causing birth defects and increased cases of cancer. I truly believe that you&#39;ve been listening to to much propaganda......you&#39;re in the right country for it.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Wrong. I have facts to support my statement versus your simple rhetoric, half which is utterly useless. For examply bringing up the "immune system".


And what country do you think I&#39;m currently in kiddo?

Better yet, Why don&#39;t you tell me what country I was born in, what county I grew up in, what country I lived in in during my adolescent years, what country I moved to after that, what country I lived in in 1993 AND where I went in 1994. Which of course is where I currently spend half of my time.

C&#39;mon miss Cleo, do your best.



P.S.

You don&#39;t know dick all about alpha, bata and gamma radiation exposure on human tissue at the genetic level do you? Radiation "damages" sperm and eggs?....Good grief

What "medical" field did you say you were in?

[kitty44]

1/ I didn&#39;t say what part of the medical field I was in
2/ You&#39;re clueless if you really think that DU doesn&#39;t cause damage to the sperm...a study in Mississippi showed that 67% of children born to Gulf War Veterens were born with birth defects.
3/ DU causes lymphoma, neuropsychotic disorders and short term memory damage and ruins the immune system
4/ There has been an astronomical increase in the varieties of cancers suffered by Iraqi children
5/ It&#39;s highly toxic, radioactive and pollutes for 4500 million years.
So what facts do you have to back up your statement??
Personally I don&#39;t care what country you were born in, lived in or live in now......judging from the way you speak it could be anywhere but I&#39;m not even going to bother guessing......as long as I don&#39;t live in the same country you live in it&#39;ll suit me fine.

[(*]

BTW

The US and Brits aren&#39;t going to "foot" any bill &#33;
Same way nobody paid to supply the Iraqi&#39;s food during sanctions.
Remember the "Oil for Food" program?

The Iraqi Oil will pay for everything.

[kitty44]

I do agree with you Malcolm.....the yanks and brits won&#39;t foot the bill......and yes I do remember the oil for food program. And america wonders why it is the most hated country in the world......everything they touch they poison. :ph34r:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 03:12 AM
1/ I didn&#39;t say what part of the medical field I was in
2/ You&#39;re clueless if you really think that DU doesn&#39;t cause damage to the sperm...a study in Mississippi showed that 67% of children born to Gulf War Veterens were born with birth defects.
3/ DU causes lymphoma, neuropsychotic disorders and short term memory damage and ruins the immune system
4/ There has been an astronomical increase in the varieties of cancers suffered by Iraqi children
5/ It&#39;s highly toxic, radioactive and pollutes for 4500 million years.
So what facts do you have to back up your statement??
Personally I don&#39;t care what country you were born in, lived in or live in now......judging from the way you speak it could be anywhere but I&#39;m not even going to bother guessing......as long as I don&#39;t live in the same country you live in it&#39;ll suit me fine.
:lol:



You already have the links...Try clicking them.

AGAIN, no one ever said U-238 was not not harmful, what I told you is that the doses 99% of the people aroung U-238 used as ordnance are way too small to cause any diseases. Did you ever consider something called statistics? It&#39;s a simple little rule that says under a per-capita condition people are going to come down with cancer RAGARDLESS if they are exposed to radiation or not.

There are no statistical numbers that prove any cancer related diseases are out of the ordinary per capita.


Your numbers are all pulled out of your arse by the way;



2/ You&#39;re clueless if you really think that DU doesn&#39;t cause damage to the sperm...a study in Mississippi showed that 67% of children born to Gulf War Veterens were born with birth defects.
3/ DU causes lymphoma, neuropsychotic disorders and short term memory damage and ruins the immune system
4/ There has been an astronomical increase in the varieties of cancers suffered by Iraqi children
5/ It&#39;s highly toxic, radioactive and pollutes for 4500 million years.



2/ Silly girl/boy. Radiation (IN EXTREME DOSAGE) affects THE GENE SEQUENCES OF DNA not the actual sperm.

3/ Here&#39;s a little bit of info for you; SO DO A MILLION OTHER THINGS SILLY&#33;&#33;&#33;
AGAIN in HIGHLY EXTREME DOSAGES uranium-238 could indeed cause these problems, however U-238 used as weaponry will not provide the amount of dosage plus exposure time that is required for it to be an issue. There may be some cases here and there where fighting was very heavy, however I would put those situations to about 1 per 10,000 firefights.
4/ Show me the proof. Support your rhetoric.

5/And? So is mercury, lead and u-235, u-234 and a dozen of other elements. Did you know you dring U-238 in you tapwater everyday? Bet ya didn&#39;t kiddo. U-238 has been around longer that the first single cell organism developed on this rock, it ain&#39;t going anywhere, nor is it really detreimental to anyone...unless you&#39;re uneducated. At that point only ignorance can be blamed.


Once again you have come up short.

[redstarshining]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 11:10 PM

Also I&#39;m pretty sure that Iraq could sustain itself after initial help from the UN, it has plenty of resources after all.
The UN is just a lackey to US imperialism. The UN, US and all occupiers need to leave the Iraq now.
Yes, I know that. I was just talking hypothetically about financial support, but of course the UN wouldn&#39;t act out of altruism. Every cent they spend on Iraq would be an investment.
I agree, the occupiers must leave.

[Loknar]

I am disappointed at President Bush, we started this thing we and need to finish it. Screw asking for help, it is a severe sign of weakness.

The UN is so useless, I can not see why nations keep placing their faith in it.

[kitty44]

Reading your reply tells me how ignorant you are.....it you knew anything about radiation (which from the sounds of it you don&#39;t) then you would know that exposure to smaller doses over a long period of time will do the damage to the sex cells (sperm) as well as somatic damage.....why do you think the reproductive organs are covered during xrays???

[caliban]

I&#39;ve said it once and l will say it again, l am here to learn from all of you(yes RAF even you) so l will just put these facts out there and see what is said. One of the worlds most wanted terrorists was found shot in the head in Bagdad(Abu Nidal). Abu Nidal has been accused by some as being a Mossad agent(not once carried out action or ops against Israel); why? France had constructed a level 5 Bio-containment facility in Iraq, prior to the first Gulf war. Considering the highest level in the world is 4; why? Chimera virus? Iraq was caught, twice by the way, trying to smuggle in guidence systems from Russia, the second time between the gulf wars; why, for the scuds or for the new rockets they were developing? Just a piece of advice but we should be using our collective differences to figure out how large a piece of shit the US government and its lackies are trying to feed us instead of banging our heads against the wall argueing about trivial shit. Thost that are different are not your enemy.....they are your teacher. Come on RAF, l KNOW you will have something good to say.....but l am not a sadistic facist hunter(hehehehehe)&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Desert Fox]

They should, since america can&#39;t do all the work, since if they would continue to do that they would exhauste their means and money. And that would result in a loss of power and Europe would lose one of his strong allies. But do I want to my country helps them, no. Those dumbasses that blow themselves up would see then my country as a enemy and would attack my country. And I don&#39;t want to bring the bloodshed in my country ...

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 10 2003, 10:39 AM
They should, since america can&#39;t do all the work, since if they would continue to do that they would exhauste their means and money. And that would result in a loss of power and Europe would lose one of his strong allies. But do I want to my country helps them, no. Those dumbasses that blow themselves up would see then my country as a enemy and would attack my country. And I don&#39;t want to bring the bloodshed in my country ...
I hope English is not your first language chief.

[mEds]

NO- take our troops back to our own country and abolish capital, give supplies and create a monarchiacal communistic platonic government&#33;

[mEds]

and to LevTrotsky. UHH first language? Why do people always assume online becaiuse someone DOES NOT WASTE TIME TYPING SLOWLY that they can&#39;t speak english or spell.

[Nobody]

Dr. D, if I can not understand what you&#39;re trying to say, I can&#39;t respond with anything (but an insult).

Flawless typed in just under 20 seconds.