Thought on "New Age" stuff?

[Palingenisis]

In general Im indifferent to mainstream religions in the west whether its mainline Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Islam and Judaism, also full on militant athieism annoys me (I personally find it pretty immature). I do however hate pro-USA, capitalism and Zionism "Born Agains" but for political reasons the same way that I have a strong dislike for Political Islam or third positionist Traditionalist Roman Catholicism.

However the more I think about it the more I dislike the whole "New Age" thing. It appears to me to be a dangerous mixture of decayed eastern fuedal ideas with the attitudes of decadent capitalism in the Imperialist nations that could potentially give birth to something very ugly.

What are other peoples views on "New Age" stuff?

[Ele'ill]

I really liked and own all of the Pure Moods albums. Isn't 'New Age' a little broad to accurately discuss like this? Maybe define it first?

[ComradeMan]

In general Im indifferent to mainstream religions in the west whether its mainline Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Islam and Judaism, also full on militant athieism annoys me (I personally find it pretty immature). I do however hate pro-USA, capitalism and Zionism "Born Agains" but for political reasons the same way that I have a strong dislike for Political Islam or third positionist Traditionalist Roman Catholicism.

However the more I think about it the more I dislike the whole "New Age" thing. It appears to me to be a dangerous mixture of decayed eastern fuedal ideas with the attitudes of decadent capitalism in the Imperialist nations that could potentially give birth to something very ugly.

What are other peoples views on "New Age" stuff?

As usual you make broad and sweeping generalisations.

"New Age" would also include things like European folk beliefs and earth/nature based systems that would be more in line with green anarchism than decadent capitalism. Whether you believe them or not, I don't see how "druids" are supporting systems of capitalism.

I'm not sure what you mean with "decayed eastern fuedal [sic] ideas" either.

So you're indifferent to mainstream religions, i.e. institutionalised religions and more specifically Abrahamic ones, but other belief systems are to be treated with fear and suspicion. You are beginning to sound like a "Stalinist" Torquemada.

[scarletghoul]

New Age spirituality stuff is awful, especialy the whole Pagan revival thing. There's nothing more frustrating, as someone who endorses human progress, than seeing a load of hippies talking to stones and shit like its some magical thing..

On a theological level, Zizek makes it clear in some of his work why we should completely reject this neopagan stuff. He views it as worse than christianity because it revolves around some magical otherness and nature as determining everything etc, whereas in Christianity, he claims, there is the idea of a collective self-emancipation for humanity and so on. He's an atheist, but its a good point.

The whole nature-as-god thing is fucking creepy imho

[Revolution starts with U]

I have this argument with my friends all the time. We all were anti-establishment, especially in religion. But they took a different route than me. I deny all religion and a-material analysese (how to pluralize analysis?), they are looking to Taroh cards and alchemy to fix the world.
The only religions I see as valid are human emancipation theology (or w/e they call it) and Luciferanism (which is just human liberation spirituality). But even they are bogus, imo.
Still, I'm on the opposite side of the fence than you Pali. I am indifferent to paganism, or new age mumbo jumbo. But I am radically against mainstream religions. At least paganism is, in many ways, a democratic religion. Judeo-christianity is placing a full on dictator in charge of the world.

[scarletghoul]

I have this argument with my friends all the time. We all were anti-establishment, especially in religion. But they took a different route than me. I deny all religion and a-material analysese (how to pluralize analysis?), they are looking to Taroh cards and alchemy to fix the world.
The only religions I see as valid are human emancipation theology (or w/e they call it) and Luciferanism (which is just human liberation spirituality). But even they are bogus, imo.
Still, I'm on the opposite side of the fence than you Pali. I am indifferent to paganism, or new age mumbo jumbo. But I am radically against mainstream religions. At least paganism is, in many ways, a democratic religion. Judeo-christianity is placing a full on dictator in charge of the world.
How is paganism democratic ?

[Palingenisis]

How is paganism democratic ?

A lot of neo-paganism is tied into outright racial nationalism and anti-semitism (going ons about how europeans shouldnt be worshiping a "desert God" of "another people"). Also the romanticization of nature can very easily slip into social darwinism. Also a lot of new age stuff says you are poor because you dont put out the right "energies", etc which ties into the belief that a lot of them have that you choose everything that happens to you in this life.

[Palingenisis]

I really liked and own all of the Pure Moods albums. Isn't 'New Age' a little broad to accurately discuss like this? Maybe define it first?

The whole area is kinda board and nebulous.

But this guy would be a perfect example of what I mean...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Spiritual_Laws_of_Success:_A_Practical_G uide_to_the_Fulfilment_of_Your_Dreams

[ComradeMan]

New Age spirituality stuff is awful, especialy the whole Pagan revival thing. There's nothing more frustrating, as someone who endorses human progress, than seeing a load of hippies talking to stones and shit like its some magical thing..

On a theological level, Zizek makes it clear in some of his work why we should completely reject this neopagan stuff. He views it as worse than christianity because it revolves around some magical otherness and nature as determining everything etc, whereas in Christianity, he claims, there is the idea of a collective self-emancipation for humanity and so on. He's an atheist, but its a good point.

The whole nature-as-god thing is fucking creepy imho



So Native American spiritualities are reactionary?

To each their own.

If a hippy wants to talk to a stone that is no different to forms of meditation that stress non-duality and oneness.

[Revolution starts with U]

How is paganism democratic ?
It's not. But it is more democratic than Judeo-christian theology. It's "democratic" in the sense that the heirarchy is broken down (you can worship Zeus, or Dionysis) and it is more open to individual interpretation (hence, there really is no "pagan bible."). It's still crap, which I made clear in my post that I felt that way. But at least it's not like "everyone must obey the dictator."


A lot of neo-paganism is tied into outright racial nationalism and anti-semitism (going ons about how europeans shouldnt be worshiping a "desert God" of "another people"). Also the romanticization of nature can very easily slip into social darwinism. Also a lot of new age stuff says you are poor because you dont put out the right "energies", etc which ties into the belief that a lot of them have that you choose everything that happens to you in this life.

All of those apply to abrahmic religions just as much as they do paganism. The only difference (and why I am more indifferent to paganism) is that most pagans won't be like "Thor is real, and you must worship him or you are inhuman."

[ComradeMan]

The religions in themselves are abstract concepts, it's people who cause the problem!

[Revolution starts with U]

But you must admit, Comrade, that some ideologies (whether religous or political, or whatever) attract and reinforce some people's reactionary attitudes.

[ComradeMan]

But you must admit, Comrade, that some ideologies (whether religous or political, or whatever) attract and reinforce some people's reactionary attitudes.

Well "communism" turned Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge into nationalist-primitivist committers of genocide/democide....

The problem is that the ideologies or philosophies of just about anyone can be used to justify just about anything.... the Devil uses scripture for his own ends... Darwin's theories could be seen as laying some foundation to Nazi eugenics and so on.

The problem is that people are at worst selfish, dishonest and shitty.

[Palingenisis]

Well "communism" turned Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge into nationalist-primitivist committers of genocide/democide....



That is flaming if I dont know what is.

[ComradeMan]

That is flaming if I dont know what is.

Flaming? Not one curse or attack. If you can deal with discussion and examples within a discussion, stay off a discussion foruim. The point being that as the writers of the "Black Book of Communism" so "convincingly" point out that communism is evil and cite Pol Pot etc as evidence; the truth of the matter is that "communism" fundamentally remains an abstract theory and socio-economic "philosophy"- what is done with it by people is another matter, as can be said for most ideologies and philosophies.

[Palingenisis]

All of those apply to abrahmic religions just as much as they do paganism. The only difference (and why I am more indifferent to paganism) is that most pagans won't be like "Thor is real, and you must worship him or you are inhuman."

No I dont think that Islam, Judaism and Christianity teach that if you are poor or bad stuff happens to you that you choose it with your "negative energies" or whatever the way that New Agers do. They also all put forward that there is an objective reality that can be understand at least partially by reason which is a big point in their favour in my book, while as a lot of new age stuff makes everything completely subjective and relative. For their time I believe that the Abrahmic religions were incredibly progressive (for instance Christianity introduced the idea of the dignity of manual labour which was completely lacking in the classical world) and the Hebrew prophets stressed things like social justice and the dignity of ordinary people and the rulers duties to them in a way that was pretty unique at the time.

But yeah all religions or religious ideas have their psycho side.

[Palingenisis]

On a theological level, Zizek makes it clear in some of his work why we should completely reject this neopagan stuff. He views it as worse than christianity because it revolves around some magical otherness and nature as determining everything etc, whereas in Christianity, he claims, there is the idea of a collective self-emancipation for humanity and so on. He's an atheist, but its a good point.


Very interesting...Where does he write about this?

[ComradeMan]

No I dont think that Islam, Judaism and Christianity teach that if you are poor or bad stuff happens to you that you choose it with your "negative energies" or whatever the way that New Agers do. They also all put forward that there is an objective reality that can be understand at least partially by reason which is a big point in their favour in my book, while as a lot of new age stuff makes everything completely subjective and relative. For their time I believe that the Abrahmic religions were incredibly progressive (for instance Christianity introduced the idea of the dignity of manual labour which was completely lacking in the classical world) and the Hebrew prophets stressed things like social justice and the dignity of ordinary people and the rulers duties to them in a way that was pretty unique at the time.

But yeah all religions or religious ideas have their psycho side.

How many New Agers do you know? What do they all believe?
If you think that "karma" is somehow absent from the Abrahamic religions then you are gravely mistaken or badly informed- it's just described in a different way "the sins of the fathers will be carried unto the sons"....etc.

I know quite a few "New Agers" and to be honest they are more authentically "Christian" than a lot of Christians I know. It depends on the individual.

Until someone starts forcing me to believe something against my own will, or prohibiting me to believe something I want to- as long as does not infringe on someone else's rights- then quite frankly I am not too concerned.

"In my Father's house there are many mansions.."..;)

[Twin City Lines]

For the most part I respect New Agers. I only have three beefs with them for the most part:

1) Most (not all) New Agers are classist, snobby people. As a poor person interested in metaphysics, I felt very uncomfortable with the superiority vibe I got off people in churches like Unity.

2) The typical New Age take that everything in your life is your choice, even your reincarnations. No way will I believe I was ever crazy enough to choose to be born into an abusive family. I have a little respect for the traditional Hindu/Buddhist take that a bad reincarnation is a punishment for bad behaviour in a past life. Who knows, maybe I was Adolf Hitler two lives ago....

3) The extreme to which positive thinking is taken. "Be glad you have cancer" pissed Barbara Ehrenreich off enough that she wrote a book about it. I agree with her 100 percent. (Moderate positive thinking I don't object to.)

[Palingenisis]

How many New Agers do you know? What do they all believe?
If you think that "karma" is somehow absent from the Abrahamic religions then you are gravely mistaken or badly informed- it's just described in a different way "the sins of the fathers will be carried unto the sons"....etc.


Ive come across plenty....;)

The thing is that their ideas of "karma" are different from traditional ones (which were also a way of justifying caste/class division)...Bad things happen to you because you wish them to happen because you arent positive.

[Revolution starts with U]

There is no religion I find more dangerous than things like "The Secret."
OMFG I hate that book/movie.

[Ele'ill]

Hey, gang. Keep the conversation on topic without antagonizing each other intentionally- no, i'm not THAT stupid- knock it off.

[Palingenisis]

There is no religion I find more dangerous than things like "The Secret."
OMFG I hate that book/movie.

Never came across it...Why do you hate it?

[ComradeMan]

Ive come across plenty....;)

The thing is that their ideas of "karma" are different from traditional ones (which were also a way of justifying caste/class division)...Bad things happen to you because you wish them to happen because you arent positive.

The problems with this are many.

Firstly, some concept of "karma" and reincarnation has been found in many religions/philosophies throughout history- including Gnosticism and Pythagoreans as well as, I believe, the ancient druids. To find it in the Vedic religions is thus no surprise.

Without wishing to justify the "caste" system, that not all schools of Hinduism accept or in the same way, you have to ask yourself- was the belief created to justify the system or was the system "explained" by the belief that existed beforehand?


For the most part I respect New Agers. I only have three beefs with them for the most part:

1) Most (not all) New Agers are classist, snobby people. As a poor person interested in metaphysics, I felt very uncomfortable with the superiority vibe I got off people in churches like Unity.

A lot of atheists I have come across were racists, classists and capitalists with vague notions of social-darwinism. Is that because of their atheism? You have to ask yourself is it because of what they believe or how they believe based on where and how they grew up. There are an infinite number of variables.


2) The typical New Age take that everything in your life is your choice, even your reincarnations. No way will I believe I was ever crazy enough to choose to be born into an abusive family. I have a little respect for the traditional Hindu/Buddhist take that a bad reincarnation is a punishment for bad behaviour in a past life. Who knows, maybe I was Adolf Hitler two lives ago.....

What is typical New Age? You then go on to mention non-New Age, rather "old-age" Vedic religions- or do you mean the versions of these religions in the post-Hippy era West?


2)3) The extreme to which positive thinking is taken. "Be glad you have cancer" pissed Barbara Ehrenreich off enough that she wrote a book about it. I agree with her 100 percent. (Moderate positive thinking I don't object to.)

That sounds a bit crazy and also sounds like typical Western misunderstanding what was meant. I don't know about this case, but I fear the concept of accepting something and dealing with it in order to alleviate or eliminate suffering has been misconstrued as being "glad" about it.

[Revolution starts with U]

The Secret is a happy little story about how you can "wish" the universe to do your bidding... or rather that you actually do, all the time.
It creates a convenient ideology for people to believe the poor are poor because they want to be, or fat people fat, or dumb people dumb. If that kid with cerebral palsy wants to be normal, he can just wish it. :thumbup1:

[Palingenisis]

The Secret is a happy little story about how you can "wish" the universe to do your bidding... or rather that you actually do, all the time.
It creates a convenient ideology for people to believe the poor are poor because they want to be, or fat people fat, or dumb people dumb. If that kid with cerebral palsy wants to be normal, he can just wish it. :thumbup1:

Its that shit that I find so reactionary about the new age. Its fits in perfectly with late capitalist idealogy in the USA. Mind you the "born agains" can come very close to that with the whole idea of the "Prosperity Gospel".

[The Red Next Door]

Its that shit that I find so reactionary about the new age. Its fits in perfectly with late capitalist idealogy in the USA. Mind you the "born agains" can come very close to that with the whole idea of the "Prosperity Gospel".


My dad side of the family are those mothefuckers. They are very reaction fabulous.

[Palingenisis]

http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2010/09/adorno-theses-on-occultism.html

Worth having a look at it. Adorno while not a Marxist-Leninist was a very interesting critic of capitalist disintergration of culture.