Uaf / edl

[balaclava]

Everybody has an opinion and some feel strongly about some things but most of us watch the news, mutter some abuse and do nothing; the silent majority. Some might venture as far as a letter to a politician stating a view but few would take to the streets waving banners. Can the few who take to the streets waving banners be classified? And, if they can, is there a class of demonstrator who wants to demonstrate and goes looking for something to demonstrate about. I mean, I can understand someone feeling really strongly about an issue and taking to the streets with his/her banner but are there some people who like waving banners so much they will look for a cause to wave a banner? And, is the UAF such a group? We have established that there are no fascist so why is there a UAF? Is it simply the case that they enjoy the comradely meetings and thrill of the event and convince themselves that an enemy exists purely to give reason for their existence or am I missing something?

Why do I ask this? I’ve just been reading through the thread on the antifascist section on the EDL thing in Luton and from what I saw of the EDL on the news they didn’t look like career demonstrators (like the UAF) so I ask myself why are the EDL bussing themselves around the country at great expense? I can only conclude that it is because it is about some issue which they individually feel very strongly about i.e. if the issue was to go away tomorrow they would be gone as opposed to the UAF who (I allege) would just find another group to demonstrate against because that is their raison d'être. I then ask myself the question, if we can say that for every person taking to the streets there are 1000 members of the population who support their views but won’t take to the streets can we get an accurate reflection of public opinion/support? I then have to ask myself the question, can we say that it would be accurate to allocate them the same pro rata support i.e. would the career demonstrators have as many supporters as the single ‘popular’ cause demonstrators? Have any studies been done?

Of course I’d like to have asked the question on the antifascist section but being restricted I am not allowed to do that – why is that, are they frightened of probing questions?

[#FF0000]

they didn’t look like career demonstrators (like the UAF)The EDL look like racist thugs to us in America, to be totally honest.

As for the rest of your question, I'm not really sure what your point is.

[ComradeMan]

The so-called English Defence League make me sick. I also find it sickening that they use the flag of England/Britain and say they represent something positive etc when their own grandfathers and grandmothers, in good faith, sacrificed years of their lives and their lives fighting fascists and nazi pricks just like the ..... err..... ED....?

[bricolage]

Except the EDL aren't fascists or Nazis.
(and the English flag has never been anything positive)
Calling them nazis is not just lazy but actually results in poor political analysis of how such a group emerged.
It's actually quite a good tool of ruling parties to simply dismiss them as fascists or 'far right', it ignores the fact that they are just doing in the street the same thing that Blair, Cameron et all have been doing through parliament.

[balaclava]

The EDL look like racist thugs to us in America, to be totally honest.

As for the rest of your question, I'm not really sure what your point is.

Look like thugs – they’re football supporters what’d you expect them to look like :)?

My point – I was wondered whether there was some rules by which we could extrapolate public support (support of the ‘silent majority’) based upon the numbers of demonstrators for either group.

[balaclava]

The so-called English Defence League make me sick. I also find it sickening that they use the flag of England/Britain and say they represent something positive etc when their own grandfathers and grandmothers, in good faith, sacrificed years of their lives and their lives fighting fascists and nazi pricks just like the ..... err..... ED....?

Make you sick? What is that makes you sick? I have been on the EDL forum posing as a Muslim just to see what kind of response I’d get and the only thing I discovered that what they didn’t like Islam but weren’t quite sure why. Yes I got shouted down as a ‘troll’ but I get that here. Try as I did I couldn’t get anyone to cross the race / racist divide.

And the flag thing - what pisses me off is that I can't wave my countries flag because it was hijacked by the BNP!

[#FF0000]

My point – I was wondered whether there was some rules by which we could extrapolate public support (support of the ‘silent majority’) based upon the numbers of demonstrators for either group.

Not really sure, but to be honest again, it doesn't look like the EDL has much support at all. They are regularly outnumbered even when they bus people in to pad their numbers.

I don't know. I don't think there's any evidence of a "silent majority". It seems like most people don't share the EDL's view on Muslims.

[Che a chara]

Try as I did I couldn’t get anyone to cross the race / racist divide.

ooh it's there. i was on the forum a year back posed as an intrigued socialist. Support for 'white culture' , in the UDL section especially, was very apparent. Maybe they've realised this now and have had some new rules put in place on the forum regarding racist posts etc.. But even on their official facebook pages/chats, members engage in explosive racial differentiation and arguments . I've seen many a member saying that they are being used by Jewish elements. They've got it all, and Nazis would be a fair enough label IMO.

they've tried to hijack the anti-fascist, anti-homophobic banner (etc..), but they'll continue to show their true colours and split when these issues come to the fore. Wolves in sheep's clothing. if it's not Islamophobia, they'll be on to something else. That is for sure.

[Sasha]

Most edl don't even share the edls views on Muslims, they just hate "pakis" and want some agro with the plod. Just do an count of the people on their forum who post anything more than oneliners, ill doubt if ypull get past the hundred, maybe even 50.

[balaclava]

The police say there were 1,500 EDL supporters in the town, plus another 1,000 in the Unite Against Fascism counter-demonstration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12375175 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12375175)

These are small numbers but (without any empirical evidence) I will say (for the sake of argument) that for every one EDL demonstrator there is 100K public (silent majority) support and for every one UAF demonstrator there is 100 public (silent majority) support. Why – because the EDL (like it or not) is pursuing a ‘popular’ cause and the UAF are just career demonstrators. What say you comrades?

[Sasha]

That you are full of shite, the so called silent majority is always centrist and on key issues (slightly) to the left of the current political and media discours. Yes they might be worried about Islam, for all kinds of reasons, but they despise the edl extremism.

[Sasha]

Oh, and I'm not your comrade...

[balaclava]

In simple terms - if you walk down the street and ask people you pass - are you worried about fascism (I would argue) you would get a huge NO (because there are no fascists); if you asked are you worried about militant Islam you would get a huge YES (because Islamists exist and are a problem). But that doesn’t equate with the numbers of 1500 EDL and 1000 UAF. I would argue that the UAF can get 1000 on the streets is because the UAF are better organised as a group who ‘demonstrate’ because that is their raison d'etre (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/raison_d%27etre) and the EDL get 1500 because they have popluar support. So what – is the RevLeft about what the people want or about what the minority anti-establishment want?

[balaclava]

In simple terms - if you walk down the street and ask people you pass - are you worried about fascism (I would argue) you would get a huge NO (because there are no fascists); if you asked are you worried about militant Islam you would get a huge YES (because Islamists exist and are a problem). But that doesn’t equate with the numbers of 1500 EDL and 1000 UAF. I would argue that the UAF can get 1000 on the streets is because the UAF are better organised as a group who ‘demonstrate’ because that is their raison d'etre (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/raison_d%27etre) and the EDL get 1500 because they have popluar support. So what – is the RevLeft about what the people want or about what the minority anti-establishment want?

[#FF0000]

In simple terms - if you walk down the street and ask people you pass - are you worried about fascism (I would argue) you would get a huge NO (because there are no fascists); if you asked are you worried about militant Islam you would get a huge YES (because Islamists exist and are a problem)

I don't think most people are worried about militant islam. And sure, people might not be afraid of "fascism", but I think there's a better than even chance that they're leery of the xenophobic line folks like the BNP and EDL push.


. So what – is the RevLeft about what the people want or about what the minority anti-establishment want?

Man, you are very, very confused about how we think.

[ComradeMan]

Except the EDL aren't fascists or Nazis.
(and the English flag has never been anything positive)
.

Tell that to the people who were liberated from the Nazis and the facists or when the English navy attacked the slave ports and destroyed slavers or drove the slavers from Sudan. I'm not saying England doesn't have baggage but this constant if not blame it on America, well blame it on England is insulting to the memories of the good people. Whatever the motives of the higher powers, the ordinary people, men and women, during the Second World War, for example, fought against fascism and Nazism and for that I think the EDL and other nationalist groups are so insulting.

As for calling them nazis/fascists- well, people with suspect "racial" or "xenophic" politics and promote "national" values that they need to defend quite often fall into that category..... ;)

[Ele'ill]

minority anti-establishment want?

minority anti-establishment like Egypt



We're working class with ideas.

[Tommy4ever]

I don't think most people are worried about militant islam. And sure, people might not be afraid of "fascism", but I think there's a better than even chance that they're leery of the xenophobic line folks like the BNP and EDL push.

Your definately wrong about the Islam point. There are a lot of people who are worried about militant Islam whether we like it or not.

People aren't worried by fascism because in the UK there are no fascists (I hate the misuse of the term). However there is very little support for the far-right groups like the BNP and EDL. Most people tend to detest the blatant racists - even most racists like to try to convince themselves and others that they are not.


Tell that to the people who were liberated from the Nazis and the facists or when the English navy attacked the slave ports and destroyed slavers or drove the slavers from Sudan. I'm not saying England doesn't have baggage but this constant if not blame it on America, well blame it on England is insulting to the memories of the good people. Whatever the motives of the higher powers, the ordinary people, men and women, during the Second World War, for example, fought against fascism and Nazism and for that I think the EDL and other nationalist groups are so insulting.

As for calling them nazis/fascists- well, people with suspect "racial" or "xenophic" politics and promote "national" values that they need to defend quite often fall into that category..... ;)

All those things you mentioned seem to have been acts by Britain, under the British flag Comrade ... :rolleyes:

The English flag is most certainly seen as a far-right image. Outside of national sporting events it is largely associated with the likes of the EDL and BNP.

The British flag has a lot of bad connotations within the UK as well but it is not nearly as looked down upon as the English flag.

Scottish and Welsh flags on the other hands have few bad connotations around them as here we lack far-right nationalists.

England is slowly becoming the new Germany with a self loathing of its own flag due to its afinity with nationalists.

[Jazzratt]

But that doesn’t equate with the numbers of 1500 EDL and 1000 UAF. I would argue that the UAF can get 1000 on the streets is because the UAF are better organised as a group who ‘demonstrate’ because that is their raison d'etre (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/raison_d%27etre) and the EDL get 1500 because they have popluar support. This is total bollocks. The EDL are a protest group, they aren't just a random spontaneous gathering of reich minded people. Their reason for being is just as much about being an organised demonstration group as that of the UAF - who it should be noted are by far not the only group of people interested in keeping the EDL's brand of pernicious xenophobia off the streets: other groups include the local communities upon which these fuckhead thugs descend. The only evidence your bunch of subnormal racist wankhandles has popular support is you blindly asserting they do because when they bus in members from all around the country they can outnumber a trot front group or that if you were to conduct a survey (which you haven't conducted) and asked a bunch of "ordinary people" (in actuality this is more likely your imagination's conception of them so they are more likely to share your own prejudice) you would find that. Where is your concrete data, fuckhead?

[#FF0000]

Your definately wrong about the Islam point. There are a lot of people who are worried about militant Islam whether we like it or not.

I really, sincerely doubt this, because I think people are smart enough to realize that there is literally no chance of England, or America, or wherever, suddenly becoming some wannabe Saudi Arabia when the "radical Islamists" who would want such a thing are a tiny minority of an already tiny minority.

[Che a chara]

of course the main issue with groups like the EDL and the BNP is xenophobia, Islamophobia and racism. these brutes needs challenged and exposed but at the same time, IMO, more time and money does need invested in assimilation and integration programmes. this is a truth that many may deny, but is the truth nonetheless. i'd love to see the left and mainstream pro-immigrant groups be more assertive on this instead of burying their heads in the sand and ducking and diving. it just causes more division and alienation in communities.

[ComradeMan]

All those things you mentioned seem to have been acts by Britain, under the British flag Comrade ... :rolleyes:

The English flag is most certainly seen as a far-right image. Outside of national sporting events it is largely associated with the likes of the EDL and BNP..

Oh well, I do often forget that Britain and England are not the same- my mistake, I should have said the British flag. But perhaps the left should take it back and use it to promote good things!!!

As a matter of curiosity for the EDL- the English flag is actually "Italian" in origin, they bought the "copyright" from the Genoese....;)

[Tommy4ever]

I really, sincerely doubt this, because I think people are smart enough to realize that there is literally no chance of England, or America, or wherever, suddenly becoming some wannabe Saudi Arabia when the "radical Islamists" who would want such a thing are a tiny minority of an already tiny minority.

I didn't mean that. :p

But I've met plently of people who are terrified of radical Islam due to terrorism and vague ''threats to our way of life''.

No one but morons think there is any chance of Britain becoming the new Iran.

[Thug Lessons]

I really, sincerely doubt this, because I think people are smart enough to realize that there is literally no chance of England, or America, or wherever, suddenly becoming some wannabe Saudi Arabia when the "radical Islamists" who would want such a thing are a tiny minority of an already tiny minority.

Isn't that exactly what bigotry is though? Irrational, baseless prejudices? It's really a minor point but I don't see a need to draw a sharp distinction between 'pure' bigotry and white supremacist blubbering over the supposedly terrible consequences of miscegenation/immigration/multiculturalism/whatever.

[Tommy4ever]

Oh well, I do often forget that Britain and England are not the same- my mistake, I should have said the British flag. But perhaps the left should take it back and use it to promote good things!!!

As a matter of curiosity for the EDL- the English flag is actually "Italian" in origin, they bought the "copyright" from the Genoese....;)


Why would the Left want to promite nationalism? We don't like that ... remember?

[#FF0000]

Isn't that exactly what bigotry is though? Irrational, baseless prejudices? It's really a minor point but I don't see a need to draw a sharp distinction between 'real' bigotry and white supremacist blubbering over the supposedly terrible consequences of miscegenation/immigration/multiculturalism/whatever.

Yeah I agree with you. And that's the exact term I would use, too, because bigots always take issue with words like "racist" (MUSLIM ISN'T A RACE HURRRR).

[#FF0000]

Why would the Left want to promite nationalism? We don't like that ... remember?

Except in the context of anti-imperial struggles, which I think is a mistake.

[ComradeMan]

Why would the Left want to promite nationalism? We don't like that ... remember?

The Italian communists use the Italian flag without promoting nationalism. If the left would take back "folk symbols" it might stop rightwing jerks hijacking them all the time and creating the powerful propaganda that they represent the "people". The people are English, the flag is English, the English left should use the English flag... that's the way I am thinking.

Whether you like it or not, flags and symbols are powerful on a subliminal level.

[Che a chara]

Flying a national flag on its own might be seen as a bit nationalistic, but flying it along with a red flag, a starry plough or a rainbow/pride flag etc.. would symbol much more all inclusiveness.

[Manic Impressive]

The police say there were 1,500 EDL supporters in the town, plus another 1,000 in the Unite Against Fascism counter-demonstration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12375175 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12375175)

These are small numbers but (without any empirical evidence) I will say (for the sake of argument) that for every one EDL demonstrator there is 100K public (silent majority) support and for every one UAF demonstrator there is 100 public (silent majority) support. Why – because the EDL (like it or not) is pursuing a ‘popular’ cause and the UAF are just career demonstrators. What say you comrades?
Whut 100,000 per EDL demonstrator, are you high? that would make a 150,000,000 silent majority perhaps 100 people per EDL demonstrator so around 150,000 supporters or people who are unconnected but share their views would be more realistic.

[Jazzratt]

Whut 100,000 per EDL demonstrator, are you high? that would make a 150,000,000 silent majority perhaps 100 people per EDL demonstrator so around 150,000 supporters or people who are unconnected but share their views would be more realistic. He's pulling the numbers out of his arse, I don't really think he's going to be concerned about maintaining any sort of realism or logical consistency.

[bricolage]

I have no interest in reclaiming any kind of flags, especially not the one that was flown on the ships of British colonialism, that waves above Buckingham Palace, that parades down the streets of Belfast and is stained with the blood of countless atrocities. This is the same stuff Billy Bragg has been pushing since whenever and it is as bankrupt now as it was then. The idea that we should do this because it might make emancipation more 'appealing' to people is drowned in its self-defeat. The communist project is appealing in so far as we live under the jack boot of exploitation every day that we sell ourselves for survival, and will emerge from collective struggle that we do not and cannot control. It is not some kind of PR exercise, much less one that panders to a history of brutality and oppression. Those that would have us co-opt the Union flag are those that cannot envisage a real human community.

[ComradeMan]

I have no interest in reclaiming any kind of flags, especially not the one that was flown on the ships of British colonialism, that waves above Buckingham Palace, that parades down the streets of Belfast and is stained with the blood of countless atrocities. This is the same stuff Billy Bragg has been pushing since whenever and it is as bankrupt now as it was then. The idea that we should do this because it might make emancipation more 'appealing' to people is drowned in its self-defeat. The communist project is appealing in so far as we live under the jack boot of exploitation every day that we sell ourselves for survival, and will emerge from collective struggle that we do not and cannot control. It is not some kind of PR exercise, much less one that panders to a history of brutality and oppression. Those that would have us co-opt the Union flag are those that cannot envisage a real human community.


Well then you're going to find it hard to capture hearts and minds....

[#FF0000]

Well then you're going to find it hard to capture hearts and minds....

Revolutions don't happen because parties of so-called revolutionaries have captured hearts and minds, though. They happen because of local conditions, conflict, and class struggle.

[ComradeMan]

Revolutions don't happen because parties of so-called revolutionaries have captured hearts and minds, though. They happen because of local conditions, conflict, and class struggle.

You need the people behind the revolution, i.e. you need the hearts and minds, if you do not it is no more than a palace coup or a failed revolution that runs the risk of becoming as tyrannical as that which preceded it.

[#FF0000]

The conditions that drive conflict and struggle are what win the "hearts and minds", though. Not flags.

[Revolution starts with U]

In some ways I agree with you Comrade (propaganda is important). But let me ask you this;
Should socialists be spouting that we should go socialist because it will be easier to keep the blacks in line, to placate the racist "hearts and minds?"

(I'm not saying socialism is racist, I'm asking should we capture the hearts and minds of racists using racism, to promote socialism)

[ComradeMan]

The conditions that drive conflict and struggle are what win the "hearts and minds", though. Not flags.

Flags are symbols and powerful ones at that. To be honest I don't want to get into a whole debate on flags and flag loathing etc, but note that Cuba kept it's flag so to speak....

What are the conditions that drive conflict and struggle? ;)

[Revolution starts with U]

Speaking of flags, I would say this "philosopher" has a good take on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8

[#FF0000]

What are the conditions that drive conflict and struggle? ;)

Oh, you know. Conflicting class interests. Issues unique to any particular area where these conflicting interests are apparent (Food prices in Tunisia, for example).

And that's fine, flags are powerful things, but symbols, flags, and imagery aren't enough to cause a revolution on their own.

[ComradeMan]

In some ways I agree with you Comrade (propaganda is important). But let me ask you this;
Should socialists be spouting that we should go socialist because it will be easier to keep the blacks in line, to placate the racist "hearts and minds?"

(I'm not saying socialism is racist, I'm asking should we capture the hearts and minds of racists using racism, to promote socialism)

No, but the problem is not with socialists, the problem is with the racist hearts and minds- they are the people who need to be shown the error of their ways- a doctor does not heal the healthy rather than cure the sick! ;)

[Viet Minh]

Make you sick? What is that makes you sick? I have been on the EDL forum posing as a Muslim just to see what kind of response I’d get and the only thing I discovered that what they didn’t like Islam but weren’t quite sure why. Yes I got shouted down as a ‘troll’ but I get that here. Try as I did I couldn’t get anyone to cross the race / racist divide.

And the flag thing - what pisses me off is that I can't wave my countries flag because it was hijacked by the BNP!

All the more reason you SHOULD fly that flag my friend! I had a British Ensign with an antifascist symbol made up, and waved it to the great annoyance of the nazis. Unfortunately my muslim convert friend borrowed it and hasn't given me it back yet! :mad:

The EDL are a bunch of reactionaries, fueled into a state of outrage by the daily mail etc. Its like the morons who read news of the world and were ready to lynch some poor guy who happened to have the same surname as a convicted pedophile, and defaced the property of a local paediatrician. Srsly :D

I have made the challenge to the EDL numerous times, on their site and in e-mails etc, if they are not fascist then why do they not attack BNP meetings? The BNP share many things in common with the Shariah law (as they see it) plus the BNP actually have a hope of getting into parliament. For instance the death penalty for sex offenders, I believe the BNP agree with that sentiment, supression of womens rights, and of course homophobia and anti-semitism.

[balaclava]

Amongst other things, I allege that the UAF are a group of angry idealists looking for a reason to exist and the author of the below article (written in a Marxist journal) appears to agree

EDL: a wet dream for purposeless lefties

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10208/

“Are we witnessing the rise of twenty-first-century blackshirts? In a word, no. The EDL is not fascist; it doesn’t subscribe to a fascist ideology or, indeed, any ideology at all.”

[#FF0000]

Amongst other things, I allege that the UAF are a group of angry idealists looking for a reason to exist and the author of the below article (written in a Marxist journal) appears to agreeAnti-Fascists since the 50's have pretty much just been anti-racists because Fascism doesn't really exist at this point. So, the UAF probably doesn't really need to struggle for any reason to exist. Racism exists.

Of course I don't know much about UAF. I do sort of get the idea that anti-fascists around here aren't fans of them, though.

That article, btw, says what a lot of people around here say. The EDL aren't fascists. They're just dumb xenophobes.

EDIT: lol it's also spiked which is one of the weirdest "Marxist" publications around.

[Thug Lessons]

The BNP and EDL are 'not rreal fascists' to a roughly equal extent that anarchists/Leninists/Trotskyists/[insert communist tendency you disapprove of here] are 'not real communists'. It's much more a question of definition than substance.