The Ultra Zionists

[RGacky3]

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists/

Great documentary by a great documentary film maker.

I think this points out the inevitable, even though the best solution would be a one state, or no state solution, with equal rights for palestinians and a palestinian right of return. There is no way in hell its gonna happen, as that would mean the end of a Jewish state, whats gonna happen is continual state and military backed occupations, settlements and general oppression of palestinians, and here you have the ideological background.

You know the illigal settlements will STILL be defended by the Isreali state, because they have an ideology that all of palestine belongs to Jews and Jews only. This is something that needs a strategy, and juts saying "lets all get along" or "Call for a one or no state solution with equal rights" is not gonna cut it, you need resistance, you need pressure, you need in in palestine and in the United States.

The government of the US needs to be pressured to stop proping up this apartheid and terrorist government.

[Dean]

My brother has recommended this, but I've yet to get around to it. It does seem interesting.

What makes it most interesting to me is that it came about right before the reshuffling in the Middle East started. If the documentary follows what the blurbs have said, this could turn out to be one of the most penetrating glimpses into Israeli settler society directly before the deflation of regional Israeli meddling, and all the changes in media/Israeli culture that are/will take place.

[Bud Struggle]

Pretty depressing film.

As I was watching the video it really seemed you could in a lot of cases substituted Aryan for Jew and Jew for Palestinian and this could have been a movie about how the Jews needed to be removed from 1936 Germany.

Gack's right a one state solution is the best--but it ain't gunna happen with attitudes like these. What needs to happen is that the Palestinians gain financial parity with the Israelis and the American aid to stop.

I don't have a clue what would make US aid stop.

And in the end there's going to be a war because of these crazy bastards. Too many bombs and guns and too much hatred.

[RGacky3]

The palestinians won't gain financial parity, they can't the blockaids, the systematic confiscation of palestinian possessions, land, buildings (backed by the state), the Isreali subsidization of the occupations and Jewish interests, the US aid, there is no way the palestinians can gain any type of financial independance, much less parity.

Unfortunately the only thing that will make US aid stop is the American people, and it would take a hard fight, and this is barely a priority for Americans, remember not ONLY would the American pro-palestinians be fighting against the Isreali lobby, they would also be fighting against the ultra-powerful military-industrial complex, thats an almost impossible fight.

But it must be fought.

The whole thing sickens me, quite honestly. Honestly though those who come from the west to help palestinians are heros, unfortunately they don't get any press, and pretty much loose their priviledged and protected status as westerners when they side with the palestinians, but they definately have the right idea.

Stopping US aid is the main battle, and unfortunately, the most daunting.

[The Idler]

What group were the Christians helping labour on Israeli farms?

[Bud Struggle]

Yea and your right about the Military Industrial Complex. It has a perfect storm. The US gives money to Israel and Israel spends the money with the Complex buying weapons.

They are a formidable obsticle to overcome.

[ComradeMan]

The only solution would be a one state solution. A two state solution just creates "national" apartheid in that it creates two even more polarised and ethnically narrow states and also creates a lot of demographic problems for people on the wrong side of the borders- like Arab-Israelis in non-occupied territories.

What the OP calls for won't happen- and I can't see Israel being abandoned ever by the US. You may as well ask China to give up Tibet. What needs to be done is to bring people together at ground level otherwise anything else is doomed to fail.

[Magón]

The only solution would be a one state solution. A two state solution just creates "national" apartheid in that it creates two even more polarised and ethnically narrow states and also creates a lot of demographic problems for people on the wrong side of the borders- like Arab-Israelis in non-occupied territories.

What the OP calls for won't happen- and I can't see Israel being abandoned ever by the US. You may as well ask China to give up Tibet. What needs to be done is to bring people together at ground level otherwise anything else is doomed to fail.

You realize that before the world powers carved up Palestine into Israel, West Bank, and Gaza after WW2, the Jews and Arabs and Palestinians lived somewhat cohesively together, right?

[Tommy4ever]

What group were the Christians helping labour on Israeli farms?

Quite a few Christian groups have an ifinity towards Israel.

But those people were likely 'end timers'. This is an evangelical groups with major influence in America who believe in and are desperate to reach Amageddon as soon as possible (when they will be sucked up to heaven). They believe that if they allow Israel to achieve its Biblical borders then Amageddon will come closer to reality so they rabidly support any and all Jewish settlement. They are essentially batshit insane.

[RGacky3]

The only solution would be a one state solution. A two state solution just creates "national" apartheid in that it creates two even more polarised and ethnically narrow states and also creates a lot of demographic problems for people on the wrong side of the borders- like Arab-Israelis in non-occupied territories.


Except a one state solution will never happen unless Isreal is forced to, infact Isreal would actually RATHER have a 2 state solution because a 1 state solution would be the end of a "Jewish" state.

So you can say this is what it should be all you want, but you need to fight for palestinian liberation and rights and against Isreali oppression before thats even an option.


What the OP calls for won't happen- and I can't see Israel being abandoned ever by the US. You may as well ask China to give up Tibet. What needs to be done is to bring people together at ground level otherwise anything else is doomed to fail.

And Isreal will never agree to any solution without the US threatening (seriously) to cut funds.

Getting people together at a ground level is all good and dandy, but its the state and the ultra zionists that are the problem, you need to get people together, as well as use pressure.

Also what Nin said.

[Obzervi]

You can tell that some of the zionists have a real superiority complex.

[ComradeMan]

You realize that before the world powers carved up Palestine into Israel, West Bank, and Gaza after WW2, the Jews and Arabs and Palestinians lived somewhat cohesively together, right?

Over 60 years ago......

Why not declare a "Hispanic" state of New Mexico, Texas, California etc....


Except a one state solution will never happen unless Isreal is forced to, infact Isreal would actually RATHER have a 2 state solution because a 1 state solution would be the end of a "Jewish" state. So you can say this is what it should be all you want, but you need to fight for palestinian liberation and rights and against Isreali oppression before thats even an option..

So are you supporting what the ultra-zionists would want?



And Isreal will never agree to any solution without the US threatening (seriously) to cut funds.
Getting people together at a ground level is all good and dandy, but its the state and the ultra zionists that are the problem, you need to get people together, as well as use pressure.
Also what Nin said.

The US is not the ONLY player in this game either.

"Revolutions" are difficult enough with popular support- as has been seen in Egypt, however without ground-level support, i.e. the grass-roots- they just aren't likely to happen and/or succeed.

[RGacky3]

Over 60 years ago......

Why not declare a "Hispanic" state of New Mexico, Texas, California etc....


What he's trying to say is that Jews and Arabs somehow just not being able to "get along" is clearly not the problem, its the oppression, dispossesion and killing of palestinians.


"Revolutions" are difficult enough with popular support- as has been seen in Egypt, however without ground-level support, i.e. the grass-roots- they just aren't likely to happen and/or succeed.

I absolutely agree, which is why at the ground level, Palestinians need to organize to end Isreali oppression, dispossesion, occupations, blockades, settlements and so on, and isrealis need to also organize to fight to end those things done by the Isreali state, as do Americans need to fight to end US support of the Isreali state.


The US is not the ONLY player in this game either.

The are the only player that has the power to change the game (other than Isreal internally).


So are you supporting what the ultra-zionists would want?


How so? How is what I wrote at all supporting what the ultra-zionists would want?

What I'm saying is ANY solution, be it the one state solution, the no state solution, or a 2 state solution (all of which are valid) will never happen unless Isreal is FORCED to accept it.

I don't see why you would disagree with me at all?

[ComradeMan]

What I'm saying is ANY solution, be it the one state solution, the no state solution, or a 2 state solution (all of which are valid) will never happen unless Isreal is FORCED to accept it.

I don't see why you would disagree with me at all?

And how would you go about forcing Israel? The real task is to convince Israeli citizens (not all of whom support government policies) that this cannot go on. Even some top ranking Israeli politicians such as Moshe Arens are known to be proponents of the one state/binational solution- according to online sources at least. Nothing can be done until the Arab/Islamic world around Israel accepts and recognises the State of Israel in some form (seeing as I've heard they already do business with it anyway on the quiet ;)). Until this happens no progress can be made. The onus is on all sides, not just one. The trouble with the rhetoric and the violence is that it just further polarises the Israelis and the never ending cycle of tit-for-tat goes on and on. Treaty-rocket attack-retaliation-condemnation-talks etc etc etc.

I also disagree with your opinion that all the solutions are valid. How on earth can you justify a two-state solution from a leftist point of view? As for the no-state solution- well, that isn't really a solution more than just hot air.

[RGacky3]

And how would you go about forcing Israel?

Cutting funding, internal public pressure (i.e. Isreali citizens), palestinian resistance, and so on.


Even some top ranking Israeli politicians such as Moshe Arens are known to be proponents of the one state/binational solution- according to online sources at least

Does this include full and equal rights for palestinians? Including the right of return? Maybe, let me know.


Nothing can be done until the Arab/Islamic world around Israel accepts and recognises the State of Israel in some form (seeing as I've heard they already do business with it anyway on the quiet ;)).

What is the "State of Israel," what does that mean? Is it the form of a "Jewish state?" If so no, they don't need to accept that, if they accept that there goes the one state solution.


The onus is on all sides, not just one. The trouble with the rhetoric and the violence is that it just further polarises the Israelis and the never ending cycle of tit-for-tat goes on and on. Treaty-rocket attack-retaliation-condemnation-talks etc etc etc.


You know what happens when Palestinians do not resist? Isreal takes more, Hamas stopped the violence, has the blockaide stopped? Nope, has Isreali violence stopped? Nope, sorry but thats juts a pie in the sky.


I also disagree with your opinion that all the solutions are valid. How on earth can you justify a two-state solution from a leftist point of view? As for the no-state solution- well, that isn't really a solution more than just hot air.

The no-state solution is about as feasable as the one state solution right now, the 2 state solution would be the best option if a one state solution (meaning not a "jewish" state) is impossible.

[ComradeMan]

Cutting funding, internal public pressure (i.e. Isreali citizens), palestinian resistance, and so on..

Well that hasn't worked up to now and you seem to forget that Israel does not depend only on the USA. China and the EU, especially Germany, are all big partners.



Does this include full and equal rights for palestinians? Including the right of return? Maybe, let me know...

Of course it does- and Arab-Israelis do have equal rights anway. There are of course issues around the marriage laws etc but with an increasingly secular, i.e. Jewish by tradition, Israeli population it will be interesting to see whether that situation may remain in the remotest sense possible. Yet again you fail to note the issue of compensation and a right of return/compensation for the 900,000 or so Jews that fled to Israel from Arab/Islamic countries- the two nakbas.


What is the "State of Israel," what does that mean? Is it the form of a "Jewish state?" If so no, they don't need to accept that, if they accept that there goes the one state solution....

This is another issue, a Jewish state or a state for Jews (and others). But the fundamental problem is this, until there is recognition of that State- whether you like it or not- no progress can ever be made.


You know what happens when Palestinians do not resist? Isreal takes more, Hamas stopped the violence, has the blockaide stopped? Nope, has Isreali violence stopped? Nope, sorry but thats juts a pie in the sky.....

What about the evacuation of Gaza? The whole problem is with people deciding that for some reason they can no longer live together. You also seem to forget some of the issues around Hamas- as usual. :rolleyes:


The no-state solution is about as feasable as the one state solution right now, the 2 state solution would be the best option if a one state solution (meaning not a "jewish" state) is impossible.

You keep talking about this "no-state solution" but you don't actually explain how it would ever work and why. The burden of proof is on you to defend/explain your assertion. The two state solution would be a disaster and more of a disaster for the Palestinians- take a look at a map of the territory and it's easy to see why, other than the fact that it would at the end of the accounts give the ultra-zionists exactly what they want. You also ignore the issues around non-OT Arab-Israelis, Druze, Bedouin etc too.

[RGacky3]

Well that hasn't worked up to now and you seem to forget that Israel does not depend only on the USA. China and the EU, especially Germany, are all big partners.


They are not the ones uncondionally funding Isreals military.

It has'nt worked yet, because in the US it has'nt been tried, in palestine and Isreal its an ongoing struggle.


Of course it does- and Arab-Israelis do have equal rights anway. There are of course issues around the marriage laws etc but with an increasingly secular, i.e. Jewish by tradition,

Do palestinians have a right of return? Nope, so most of the palestinians live in the west bank and gaza, which are under foreign occupation, they have no rights. You then have within the Isreali state segrigation and overt discrimination against arabs.

You have in the constitution that Isreal is a Jewish state.


This is another issue, a Jewish state or a state for Jews (and others). But the fundamental problem is this, until there is recognition of that State- whether you like it or not- no progress can ever be made.


Thats not another issue, its at the heart of the problem, accepting a state is one thing, but accpeting an explicitly Jewish state is another, that has to be addressed.

And what if everyone suddenly recognizes Isreal as a state, will the oppression stop? Will the settlements be dismantled? Will the blockaid stop?

NO because it has nothing to do with that, its a systematic dispossesion.

Your "solution" is not a solution to anything.


What about the evacuation of Gaza? The whole problem is with people deciding that for some reason they can no longer live together. You also seem to forget some of the issues around Hamas- as usual.

The evacuation of Gaza was the dismantling of ILLIGAL SETTLEMENTS, i.e. it was ending dispossesion.

Hamas is not the ones controlling the situation, they arn't occupying anyones land, they arn't setting up settlements in isreali territory and so on.

In my opinion your not wanting to support any resistance and only want to support hating palestinian gorups comes from your Islamophobia.

We can talk about Hamas, but take away Hamas and gaza is still under blockaid, nothing has been solved.


You keep talking about this "no-state solution" but you don't actually explain how it would ever work and why. The burden of proof is on you to defend/explain your assertion. The two state solution would be a disaster and more of a disaster for the Palestinians- take a look at a map of the territory and it's easy to see why, other than the fact that it would at the end of the accounts give the ultra-zionists exactly what they want.

THe no state solution would be how it was before the British took control of the middle east.

As far as the one or two stae solutions, thats all fine, hell I'll take your one state solution, but you have no way of getting there, you propose nothing that actually helps palestinians.

Your solutoin is for palestians to unilaterally disarm, end their resistance, as if Isreal would suddenly just stop their systematic dispossesion, thats not gonna bring palestinian liberation, thats what I'm interestedi in.

Tell me how Isreal is gonna be forced to end the occupation, the settlements, the blockaid and so on? .... Or is that not really a problem for you?

[ComradeMan]

They are not the ones uncondionally funding Isreals military.It has'nt worked yet, because in the US it has'nt been tried, in palestine and Isreal its an ongoing struggle.?

The US did not really support Israel so stongly until the 1970s. But military funding is not the only issue.


Do palestinians have a right of return? Nope, so most of the palestinians live in the west bank and gaza, which are under foreign occupation, they have no rights. You then have within the Isreali state segrigation and overt discrimination against arabs.

We were talking about the one-state/binational solution to the current problem- not the current situation. Secondly, the Arab-Israelis, although they do have problems, do not live as non-whites did in apartheid South Africa and have equal rights.


You have in the constitution that Isreal is a Jewish state..

That's the issue and only time will tell, yet again you are not talking about the solutions- only the current issues/problems.


And what if everyone suddenly recognizes Isreal as a state, will the oppression stop? Will the settlements be dismantled? Will the blockaid stop?

Not necessarily, but until that recognition comes then they definitely WON'T stop and no progress will ever be made.


NO because it has nothing to do with that, its a systematic dispossesion.


Your "solution" is not a solution to anything.

You have no solution whatsoever and seem to be poorly informed on many of the issues or you refuse outright to acknowledge them.


The evacuation of Gaza was the dismantling of ILLIGAL SETTLEMENTS, i.e. it was ending dispossesion. .

And....? You see- even under the current situation it is possible that the Israeli government will do something about illegal settlements.


Hamas is not the ones controlling the situation, they arn't occupying anyones land, they arn't setting up settlements in isreali territory and so on..

Who set up Hamas in the first place? :lol:

BTW- since when does land "naturally" belong to anyone? That sounds like a hardcore zionist argument.


In my opinion your not wanting to support any resistance and only want to support hating palestinian gorups comes from your Islamophobia.

When in doubt accuse people of Islamophobia? Since when was this supposed to be an "Islamic" struggle- because if you turn it into an Islamic struggle (viz. Hamas style rhetoric etc) then you have big problems. It's also hilarious how you use "zionist" tactics too. You have no argument, no solution and a fucking limited knowledge on the situation and yet anyone who disagrees with you is accused of Islamophobia. It's a bit like accusing anti-zionists of anti-semitism.... :thumbup1:

Hadash are a leftist pan-Israeli-Palestinian group, they don't target innocent civilians or train children to be suicide bombers nor do they deliberately provoke an Israeli retaliation whilst hiding behind human shields in order to win propaganda victories either. ;) Stop being so naive.


We can talk about Hamas, but take away Hamas and gaza is still under blockaid, nothing has been solved..

I think the blockade is wrong. I never have defended that. Strawman.


THe no state solution would be how it was before the British took control of the middle east...

So it would be under the absolutely wonderful regime of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE THEN WOULDN'T IT---- :thumbup1:. What do you think Palestine was before the British, some kind of anarchist commune? Clueless is not the word at times...


As far as the one or two stae solutions, thats all fine, hell I'll take your one state solution, but you have no way of getting there, you propose nothing that actually helps palestinians....

Why doesn't the one state solution benefit Palestinians? It's probably the one that benefits them the most in material terms. Instead of constantly repeating the same old "slogans" and ill-thought out nonsense time and time again- why don't you explain what you think the pros and cons of the various solutions are and explain why you support them from a leftist point of view.


Your solutoin is for palestians to unilaterally disarm, end their resistance, as if Isreal would suddenly just stop their systematic dispossesion, thats not gonna bring palestinian liberation, thats what I'm interestedi in.Tell me how Isreal is gonna be forced to end the occupation, the settlements, the blockaid and so on? .... Or is that not really a problem for you?

In a one state solution there would be no more issues of occupation by anyone would there?
:thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

But military funding is not the only issue.


Its the main one that allows isreal to act with inpunity.


We were talking about the one-state/binational solution to the current problem- not the current situation. Secondly, the Arab-Israelis, although they do have problems, do not live as non-whites did in apartheid South Africa and have equal rights.


We are talking about the current situation, which IS the current problem.

Arab Isrealis do not have equal rights, they do not have right of return, they cannot travel freely if they have relatives in the occupied territories.

And the palestinians in the occupied territories ARE in a situation worse than apartheid.


That's the issue and only time will tell, yet again you are not talking about the solutions- only the current issues/problems.


The solution needs to address the current issues and problems and the solution needs a way it can be implimented.

First we need Isreal to HAVE to have a solution, right now they don't want one, because they are the ones oppressing and dispossesing.


NO because it has nothing to do with that, its a systematic dispossesion.


So then why the hell does it matter if Isreal is recognized?


You have no solution whatsoever and seem to be poorly informed on many of the issues or you refuse outright to acknowledge them.


I've given solutions, stop their US funding, which is just as likely as a one state solution.


And....? You see- even under the current situation it is possible that the Israeli government will do something about illegal settlements.


And that was due to threats from foreign powers, internal pressure and resistance from palestinians, i.e. my strategy.

It did'nt happen by palestinian unilateral disarment.


BTW- since when does land "naturally" belong to anyone? That sounds like a hardcore zionist argument.


I never said land naturally belongs to anyone, but when a military bulldozer plows down a palestinian mans farm to build an Isreali settlement, guess who's side I am on?

Thats a bullshit argument and you know it, just because we don't believe in capitalist property rights does'nt mean we are ok with imperialist dispossesion.


When in doubt accuse people of Islamophobia? Since when was this supposed to be an "Islamic" struggle- because if you turn it into an Islamic struggle (viz. Hamas style rhetoric etc) then you have big problems.

Its not an Islamic struggle, but you seam to have a problem with muslims ...


You have no argument, no solution and a fucking limited knowledge on the situation and yet anyone who disagrees with you is accused of Islamophobia. It's a bit like accusing anti-zionists of anti-semitism.... :thumbup1:

Hadash are a leftist pan-Israeli-Palestinian group, they don't target innocent civilians or train children to be suicide bombers nor do they deliberately provoke an Israeli retaliation whilst hiding behind human shields in order to win propaganda victories either. ;) Stop being so naive

Thats awesome, and I support them as an internal resistance, thats great, but I also support palestinian resistance in the occupied territories.

I totally support them. But thats just one piece of the puzzle, I also support American groups that fight against the Isreali lobby.


I think the blockade is wrong. I never have defended that. Strawman.


thats not a strawman, I'm pointing out that Hamas is not the problem, even if you get rid of them the blockaid continues, the Isreali apartheid state is the problem.


So it would be under the absolutely wonderful regime of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE THEN WOULDN'T IT---- :thumbup1:. What do you think Palestine was before the British, some kind of anarchist commune? Clueless is not the word at times...


In the sense that there were no nation states, and people moved back and forth freely.


Why doesn't the one state solution benefit Palestinians? It's probably the one that benefits them the most in material terms. Instead of constantly repeating the same old "slogans" and ill-thought out nonsense time and time again- why don't you explain what you think the pros and cons of the various solutions are and explain why you support them from a leftist point of view.


I never said it does'nt benefit the Palestinians. But how are you gonna make it happen?

Tell me how the one state solution is gonna be forced on the Isrealis? (it has to start with an end to the occupatoin and blockaide and dismanteling the settlements).


In a one state solution there would be no more issues of occupation by anyone would there?
:thumbup1:

Well tell me how we get there.

[Baseball]

Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, has already said in an independent Palestine, Jews would not be able to reside- all the settlements go.

Its sort of ridiculous to talk about the threats posed by a comparatively few amongst the Jews of Israel of what they say about the Arabs, when the elected officials amongst the Palestinians declare the same objective with respect to the Jews.

This would seem to pose all sorts of problems for the the Revlefter. I mean, once Palestine is declared and accepted (there is not going to be single state unless the Arab states invade and conquer(and would revlefters SUPPORT such an happening?)), then the Jews will be the minority, the powerless in Palestine. Will the threads on this board become the dangers posed by the driving of Jews from their homes (defense of the powerless) and how the revleft has to defend the towns and settlements on the land formerly known as the west Bank? ? Or would nobody care?

[Magón]

Over 60 years ago......

Why not declare a "Hispanic" state of New Mexico, Texas, California etc....

If you ever visit those states, you'll see they already are a "Hispanic State". :lol:

[RGacky3]

Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, has already said in an independent Palestine, Jews would not be able to reside- all the settlements go.


Yeah, all the settlements would go, automatically, because they would no longer be protected by the Isreali military and they would be subject to palestinian Law.

As far as jews residing there, if there was literally a ban (which I seriously doubt there would be) then that would be something we as leftists would be opposed too. Just as we are opposed to the Saudi Autocratid state and the Iranian state.

However thats does not justify an occupation and Isreali oppression, and we (those of use who are Westerners and Americans) are much much more responsible for what Isreal does because we fund their oppression.


Will the threads on this board become the dangers posed by the driving of Jews from their homes (defense of the powerless) and how the revleft has to defend the towns and settlements on the land formerly known as the west Bank? ? Or would nobody care?

I'm sure people would care, and the most definately would care if the US or Europe or the UK was funding an autocratic and oppressive palestinian regeim (the Americans, Europeans and Brits on the board).

Ok Comrademan, HERE is the solution I'm gonna lay it out for you step by step just to be clear (I've stated this many times before but you ignore it).

STEP 1: ISREAL, STOP THE SETTLEMENTS AND END THE BLOCKAID
STEP 2: Dismantle the existing settlements and recompensate any palestians who were dispossesed.
Step 3: work toward a one state/no state or two state solution depending on which one jews and palestinians could live with.

If it was a one state solution, as I would definately support, Isreal (or palestine) would cese being an explicitly Jewish state and palestinians would have the same right of return and citizenship as Jews do now.

step 1 comrademan is the most important right now, thats the step we need to be fighting for immediately.

You can condemn hamas all you want, the fact is thats not gonna get us any closer to step one, you can call for a one state solution all you want but thats not gonna get use closer to step one.

[ComradeMan]

^^^^^^^^^^^

So basically you've come up with the one-state/binational solution.
:lol:

What have I been saying for an eternity?

[Che a chara]

Nothing can be done until the Arab/Islamic world around Israel accepts and recognises the State of Israel in some form (seeing as I've heard they already do business with it anyway on the quiet ;)). Until this happens no progress can be made. The onus is on all sides, not just one. The trouble with the rhetoric and the violence is that it just further polarises the Israelis and the never ending cycle of tit-for-tat goes on and on. Treaty-rocket attack-retaliation-condemnation-talks etc etc etc.

dude, the recognition of an Israeli state has absolutely no bearing on the solution of the Israeli/Palestine conflict. It's just an excuse for zionist expansion and oppression, because if this was the scenario, then why isn't Israel occupying or attacking other surrounding countries that don't recognise it's existence ? Israel is basically picking on and bullying a weaker neighbour, which has no air force, navy or national army. How the hell are they a threat to Israel's 'national security' (which we hear so many times being overplayed), but not vice versa ?? rocket attacks are also a smokescreen. how many land in derelict land ? how many, especially as of the last year, are the cause of deaths of Israeli citizens ? despite all this, Israel throws obstacles in the way of a settlement and continues air strikes and ground attacks.... with the above, there can be no justification for the brutal Israeli oppression, while at the same time decrying resistance... This is what I don't get.

[RGacky3]

^^^^^^^^^^^

So basically you've come up with the one-state/binational solution.
:lol:

What have I been saying for an eternity?


Iæm not arguing with your end solution, I'm arguing with your concentrating on issues that are not the proble.

STEP 1 and step 2 are the main problems. The Isreali State is the main problem