Ah, sectarian conflict

[Summerspeaker]

This morning the ANSWER Coalition folks talked shit about anarchism while I cooked for Food Not Bombs across the hall. I was tempted to get into an argument with them but refrained. To all y'all bashing other tendencies, I recommend a little a more tact. :lol:

[Os Cangaceiros]

You should have screamed a garbled "ANNNAAARRRRKKKAAAAYYYY!!!", while simultaneously dousing them with a bucket of water.

[HEAD ICE]

Next time you hear some goon talking shit about anarchism kinck their fuckin ass

[Summerspeaker]

Yeah, following these suggestions will clearly enhance the movement's image. I appreciate the input.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Improve the movement's image for the ANSWER crowd? Why would/should anarchists care what they think?

[Stand Your Ground]

I wouldn't recommend violence, it's people like them that we can easily open some eyes, change some minds and hopefully gain some more support.

[bcbm]

nobodies fighting nobodies

[¿Que?]

I think you throw some ISO guys in there, and you got yourself an old fashioned bar brawl...

(I'll be the guy playing the piano)

[Magón]

I think you throw some ISO guys in there, and you got yourself an old fashioned bar brawl...

(I'll be the guy playing the piano)

The end made me think of this. :o

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y1YD32DWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Rusty Shackleford]

everyone has had their tactless moments. and im guilty of them...


ive made ISO jokes, anarchy jokes, and left-com jokes(i thought sectarian dickery was funny). id still rather work with those tendencies and stop thinking im funny though.

[bcbm]

while the people fight power the leftists fight each other

[StalinFanboy]

while the people fight power the leftists fight each other

Are you surprised?

[Jimmie Higgins]

while the people fight power the leftists fight each otherWhere are people fighting the power in the US?

IMO it's the low-level of struggle that stokes the sectarian tendencies of the left. In upsurges, the left might compete, but at least they can test out their different ideas in practice rather than just squabble amongst themselves.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Where are people fighting the power in the US?

IMO it's the low-level of struggle that stokes the sectarian tendencies of the left. In upsurges, the left might compete, but at least they can test out their different ideas in practice rather than just squabble amongst themselves.
pretty much.

the left is frustrated and bored.

[bcbm]

Are you surprised?

no


Where are people fighting the power in the US?

lots of places it hasn't generalized yet though


IMO it's the low-level of struggle that stokes the sectarian tendencies of the left. In upsurges, the left might compete, but at least they can test out their different ideas in practice rather than just squabble amongst themselves.

no in the upsurge they try harder to fight each other because the winner gets the honor of bureaucratizing struggle and negotiating with the bosses for crap

[Chambered Word]

You should have screamed a garbled "ANNNAAARRRRKKKAAAAYYYY!!!", while simultaneously dousing them with a bucket of water.

I probably would have done the same, even though I'm a Trot.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know how to say this without sounding like a flaky hippy, but I'd like to promote the idea of: "competitive, not sectarian". Sometimes it's important to make political distinctions and sometimes we should compete over promoting certain ideas and tactics because by testing these different ideas in practice we can potentially learn and move the struggle forward. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of useless sectarian baggage that people have adopted because of a long period of oppressed and working classes being on the defensive. It turns people off to the left and creates a closed atmosphere where people are afraid to speak up because someone might attack you politically. It also creates doubt in the trustworthyness of grassroots activists and labor activists and radicals. We already have the ruling class telling the people that we have our own agenda and that we want dictatorship or violent chaos, so when the left attacks other leftists for being deceitful, authoritarian, secretly liberals, trust-funders, hippy or punk kinds, then the left is doing the work of the ruling class in creating mistrust of grassroots politics that are not sanctioned by some spokesperson of the establishment.

Anyway, I basically wish we could have the attitude that we are a competing band of brothers/sisters. We compete over ideas about what's best for the working class movement, but we would also know when to close ranks against the real liberal opportunists and real cops and real class enemies when necessary. To a large extent I guess we do - the solidarity with FRSO members were raided by the government is a good example of solidarity - but I guess the daily petty sectarianism is what kind of wears on us sometimes.

[Rusty Shackleford]

also, theres a lot of new people coming into the left right now. and im one of them, im still not as tactful or respectful as i could be.

thankfully i have not seen any sectarianism that is even remotely as bad as the spanish civil war. (and NO ONE in the US has)

[Summerspeaker]

I still have a working relationship with ANSWER here. I'm desperate enough that I don't even care if all the stories I've heard about the PSL are true.

[Fietsketting]

everyone has had their tactless moments. and im guilty of them...


ive made ISO jokes, anarchy jokes, and left-com jokes(i thought sectarian dickery was funny). id still rather work with those tendencies and stop thinking im funny though.

I have to stop making fun of the International Socialist here in the Netherlands, I know i am wrong but.. they make it so easy with there newspaper sales, silly demo's and sucking up to anything that even vaguely be intrested in there politics... :blushing:

[Nuvem]

In 1920 , you and I would have shot each other dead in the steppes of Ukraine over our differences. Currently we make pointed jabs on the internet and debate in person.

Don't feel bad about bringing up points when people question your ideas or creating respectful discussion. After all, 90 years ago, you and I would have shot each other.

[Rusty Shackleford]

maybe the best way to resolve the issue is to have a cup of coffee or tea and talk it out. dont be a dick about it though(and i hope they dont, also im assuming you arent an ass but just dont go up saying " yo motherfuckers, quit saying shit about anarchism").

people are people, just because they are a member of an organization doesnt make them mindless emotionless robots.

i think me spending time here actually made me think sectarianism is funny. i still make bob avakian jokes though. (which i should stop)

[Red Commissar]

I saw a "sectarian" fight in the Young Republicans club on my campus once. A group of them split off to make "Young Conservatives".

Oh well I got some free pizza out of it.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

i think me spending time here actually made me think sectarianism is funny. i still make bob avakian jokes though. (which i should stop)
Who would be offended besides Bob Avakien and the actors he pays to play the act of cultists?

[The Douche]

First world problems.

[Rusty Shackleford]

First world problems.
CPN(Marxist Leninist)

UCPN(Maoist)

[Ele'ill]

This is one of the first threads in chit chat that hasn't had a hint of sectarian fighting and it's titled 'Sectarian Conflict'.

[Rusty Shackleford]

are you disappointed?

[Ele'ill]

are you disappointed?

No, but I did just wipe snot under my roommate's chair.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I like your avatar.

[Fawkes]

I've had "Shine" by Collective Soul stuck in my head all day. My art teacher is really hot.

[Ele'ill]

I like your avatar.

I have ten of them I borrowed from a stock photo site. They're all in different poses.

[Amphictyonis]

I probably would have done the same, even though I'm a Trot.

Trader rebel scum.

[The Douche]

CPN(Marxist Leninist)

UCPN(Maoist)

Actually we're talking about ANSWER and FNB.:thumbup1:

So some college/yuppie liberal types were talking shit about some punk/hippie liberal types?









http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRU7dCSX65m15X_smeDp1q5j5TDPdCDp Pt27MpfynfFiva7EuyY&t=1

[Summerspeaker]

The ANSWER folks were talking shit about anarchists in general, not Food Not Bombs. Specifically anarchists who cause trouble at demonstrations. One kept on saying that the government loves anarchists. I have to say, their critique had merit.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The ANSWER folks were talking shit about anarchists in general, not Food Not Bombs. Specifically anarchists who cause trouble at demonstrations. One kept on saying that the government loves anarchists. I have to say, their critique had merit.
Oh. well, i have to agree to an extent with them then. I too dont like it when a demonstration unnecessarily devolves into clashes. does it mean i am against direct action? no. its all about picking your battles. Anarchists are far better to work with than liberals. i actually like some anarchists.

On May 1st in San Francisco, thousands upon thousands of people were out at the city plaza. the tea party was out in force too.

had a riot ensued, peaceful demonstrators(who were primarily immigrants from latin america coming out to voice objection to SB 1070) would possibly have been gassed or arrested. here were some peripheral arrests, some national anarchists and real anarchists got in a fight. that im ok with though.

i think this is more of an issue of strategy and tactics. a thread about this appears ever once in a while for an epic sectarian fight in politics or learning.

[The Douche]

I saw the black bloc loot ANSWER donation buckets once when ANSWER asked us to donate money. I loled.

[Ele'ill]

Specifically anarchists who cause trouble at demonstrations. One kept on saying that the government loves anarchists. I have to say, their critique had merit.

I assume you're joking- The government doesn't like the violent activity- the government is afraid of its potential. It's the failure of those individuals involved to use such tactics successfully and to build movement outside of the current spectacle.

[Os Cangaceiros]

LOL I love these bullshit sentiments of "oh, these anarchists are giving us leftists a bad name, hurf durf!" Communism/socialism already has a terrible name in the United States, and you're not going to change that by engaging in your silly demos about such-and-such issue you're trying to co-opt, or by handing out leaflets, or by otherwise preaching to the masses about how the party shepherd needs to lead them towards the light of socialism. :rolleyes:

BTW, the first time that I had ever even heard of anarchism was during the WTO protests in Seattle.

[Rusty Shackleford]

oh come on. i wasnt claiming they were giving the left a bad name.

you know what i mean ES.

[Os Cangaceiros]

oh come on. i wasnt claiming they were giving the left a bad name.

you know what i mean ES.

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking in regards to the OP saying that the critique of anarchists as hooligans who give the left a bad name has merit.

[bcbm]

the left gives the left a bad name

[Ravachol]

People who think social revolution is made through one's 'image' or 'reputation' should go into marketing or whatever. It's hilarious.

[Rusty Shackleford]

nihilism gives nihilists a bad name :D

[Blackscare]

From what I've read, it seems that at things like the G8 they really do love the anarchists, seeing as there always seems to be an emptyish alley with a police car or two parked, with black bloc'rs basically turned loose (I can imagine them saying "LOL DEEZ GUIZ SO STUPID THEY JUST LEFT THIS CAR HERE, HOORAY ANARKYISMN!") while the majority of riot police focus on beating the peaceful protesters. Helps them prove their point to the media.



That's not really against anarchists per se, but really any supposed revolutionary who does the work of the cops through their own stupidity.

[Ravachol]

From what I've read, it seems that at things like the G8 they really do love the anarchists, seeing as there always seems to be an emptyish alley with a police car or two parked, with black bloc'rs basically turned loose (I can imagine them saying "LOL DEEZ GUIZ SO STUPID THEY JUST LEFT THIS CAR HERE, HOORAY ANARKYISMN!") while the majority of riot police focus on beating the peaceful protesters. Helps them prove their point to the media.



That's not really against anarchists per se, but really any supposed revolutionary who does the work of the cops through their own stupidity.

Oh yes, because all those 'peaceful protesters' really get 'the message across' or whatever. If you think 'the rev' is made through marketing, media imagery and other idealist drivel you should consider abandoning Marxism.

[Ele'ill]

From what I've read, it seems that at things like the G8 they really do love the anarchists, seeing as there always seems to be an emptyish alley with a police car or two parked, with black bloc'rs basically turned loose (I can imagine them saying "LOL DEEZ GUIZ SO STUPID THEY JUST LEFT THIS CAR HERE, HOORAY ANARKYISMN!") while the majority of riot police focus on beating the peaceful protesters. Helps them prove their point to the media.



That's not really against anarchists per se, but really any supposed revolutionary who does the work of the cops through their own stupidity.

I don't believe that's the specific case. I don't buy the hype surrounding the 'bait cars' (plural and in reference to the g20 in toronto). What it did was highlight how the act of sitting in a fenced in area wasting hours of your day blowing bubbles at police will still get you beaten and arrested- and how successful it was to exercise a right that was given to you by your enemy and still get clobbered because you're an easy target- still a dissident although for the moment impotent- and ultimately because the other folks in black hit back and are not an easy target.

I can criticize the specifics of the property destruction but I won't for obvious reasons.

[Quail]

IMO it's the low-level of struggle that stokes the sectarian tendencies of the left. In upsurges, the left might compete, but at least they can test out their different ideas in practice rather than just squabble amongst themselves.
I'm not sure whether that's true. Most of my annoyance at trots comes from actually having to work with them, especially with the student stuff before the holidays.

[synthesis]

I'm not sure whether that's true. Most of my annoyance at trots comes from actually having to work with them, especially with the student stuff before the holidays.

It's probably the whole "actually having to work with them" that is being referred to by "the low level of struggle." I hope that made at least a dribble of sense.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not sure whether that's true. Most of my annoyance at trots comes from actually having to work with them, especially with the student stuff before the holidays.So it's personal, not political for you then? I've offered one possible material reason for sectarianism, I don't understand what your alternative suggestion is. I've met asshole trots and nice stalinists, but I can't base my political views on that - I've also been in coalitions that were purposely derailed by a couple of "anarchists" because they lost a democratic vote and decided the coalition was a barrier to progress and the vote was all a plot against them. But I don't base my view of anarchists and anarchism on that - in fact I've also had great anarchist allies in other things I've done.

First the sectarianism I'm talking about is the more recent post-60s history. I think the Spanish Civil war and sectarian conflicts before and after the Russian Revolution are a little different. The main reason being - in my view anyway - is that there were the national interests of the rulers of Russia or various "socialist" countries that impacted the political conflicts - so often groups were not fighting over how best to help workers achieve revolution and socialism, but what was the best interests for Russian foreign policy.

But for us, and the sectarianism we usually deal with, I think decades of radicals not being able to actually reach a mass working class audience, decades of decline in both trade-union and radical unions in the US, disorientation for groups that looked to Russia and China as "socialism" has had the unhealthy effect of making groups look inwards and become generally more defensive. For some on the left this has meant that since ideas can't be tested in practice, that having the right political line on this or that is more important than the actual praxis. For others this has caused groups or induviduals to blame other groups (or tendencies) for the larger failures of the left and a general decline/defensiveness of worker movements IMO.