Reperations for slavery?

[Princess Luna]

looking in the index of frequently discussed topics i was surprised i didn't see any threads about this, do you believe financial reperations to the decendents of slaves would be justified?

[Queercommie Girl]

It will never happen under capitalism.

[Orange Juche]

I think if we're speaking of overthrowing and replacing an entire social system, such a concept becomes irrelevant. That would only be a band-aid approach in the capitalist model of correcting past injustices.

[Ocean Seal]

Agreed with scarlet.
Give a man reparations he'll eat for a day, give a man a revolution and he'll eat for a lifetime.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

We reject inheritance... so why would we accept reparations? It seems like to do so would be a contradiction. It's basically the same idea.

[gorillafuck]

We reject inheritance... so why would we accept reparations? It seems like to do so would be a contradiction. It's basically the same idea.Why the hell would black people reject free money? Seriously, would you legitimately say someone shouldn't take free money that the government is offering them as reparation for past misdeeds that still affect people today?

Yes I completely support reparations from the government for slavery (won't ever happen though, so it's a moot point). I also support anytime that working class people are given money because you see, money is quite handy to have. In fact, I would support the giving of money to every single working class person if it were proposed.

Honestly, it completely baffles me that someone says that black people should reject free money if the govt offers it. Like, why?

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Why the hell would black people reject free money? Seriously, would you legitimately say someone shouldn't take free money that the government is offering them as reparation for past misdeeds that still affect people today?

Yes I completely support reparations from the government for slavery (won't ever happen though, so it's a moot point). I also support anytime that working class people are given money because you see, money is quite handy to have. In fact, I would support the giving of money to every single working class person if it were proposed.

Honestly, it completely baffles me that someone says that black people should reject free money if the govt offers it. Like, why?

I'm not saying that black people should reject free money if it's given to them. Not at all. What I'm saying is that (discounting social class just temporarily) that money shouldn't be given in the first place. It's payment for past crimes, a debt that's been passed down by generation. THIS IS INHERITANCE. Don't socialists reject this sort of thing? Or am I strangely deluded in my interpretation of Marx?

[not your usual suspect]

I agree with previous posters that socialists don't support inheritance, and thus should also reject the notion of reparations. However, the vast majority of wrongs were (and continue to be) perpetrated upon the lower classes by the upper classes, and that the wealth generated still remains with the upper classes. So, yes, I do support reparations, take from the upper classes what was stolen! Revolution, is the way to bring that about, as it can't happen under capitalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

looking in the index of frequently discussed topics i was surprised i didn't see any threads about this, do you believe financial reperations to the decendents of slaves would be justified?Yes I would support a movement for this reform. I don't support reparations for individuals - Obama, Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice, for example, should not be given the same money as the black people that suffer from the system and policies actively supported by these politicians. But I do think that the US government should give reparations in the form of massive investment into poor communities, in education programs for black students and so on. The US government has been slashing these things since the 80s and so I think an argument can be made for why this reform could be a good rallying cry for a new class-conscious civil rights movement.

Probably the reason their aren't many threads about reparations is that it is not really an active reform that people are fighting for, so it's sort of abstract to talk about reforms that are currently not really being organized around by anyone.


I'm not saying that black people should reject free money if it's given to them. Not at all. What I'm saying is that (discounting social class just temporarily) that money shouldn't be given in the first place. It's payment for past crimes, a debt that's been passed down by generation. THIS IS INHERITANCE. Don't socialists reject this sort of thing? Or am I strangely deluded in my interpretation of Marx?

I don't remember much about what Marx said specifically about inheritance, but my guess is that the problem with it is not that money is given but that wealth created by society is held privately and then passed-down so that private control of wealth can continue.

So I think this is a strange way to think about reparations as an inheritance. If workers fight for back-wages are they fighting for an inheritance? Marx argued that investment capital is dead labor - by taking the means of production are workers collectively taking back their inheritance?

Concretely, reparations could only be won by a civil rights or labor movement with at least a partially class-conscious understanding of racial oppression IMO. So reparations wouldn't be an inheritance really, it would be a reform won from the capitalists.

[red cat]

I don't think any reasonable amount will be paid as reparation by the present system. However, the oppressed black people are justified in demanding reparation in the form of money, free health-care and education etc. and all leftists should support their demand if not for anything else then for escalating class contradictions at least.

[gorillafuck]

I'm not saying that black people should reject free money if it's given to them. Not at all. What I'm saying is that (discounting social class just temporarily) that money shouldn't be given in the first place."Discounting social class temporarily", umm, why? That's like talking about WWI, "but let's just disregard imperialism for a minute here".

Why should the government not give people that still suffer from past crimes today free money? How can you be a supporter of working class politics but not think that actions should be taken to improve the lives of working class black people? The optimal situation would obviously be giving everybody free money, but giving oppressed people free money would be a good start to that.


It's payment for past crimes, a debt that's been passed down by generation. THIS IS INHERITANCE. Don't socialists reject this sort of thing? Or am I strangely deluded in my interpretation of Marx?Past crimes that still affect people today. It's not remotely comparable to a rich father giving his children lots of inheritance. That's like saying that the government giving Native Americans back their land is giving them land based on some conservative idea inheritance. Which is absurd.

By the way, were a socialist revolution to happen, more resources would be allocated to certain places that have been previously neglected. That would have the same effect. So, ignoring theorizing about inheritance (even though you're trying to portray it as something it's clearly not), would you oppose allocating more funds to working class neighborhoods where minorities generally live? That's basically what it would be doing.

[TC]

Leftists oppose inheritance, but as long as we're living in countries whose property laws protect inheritable capitalist private property, property that can be recovered generations later like in the case of people whose ancestors lost property to the Nazis recovering it - it seems odd to refuse to explore the possibility of slavery reparations.

White communities continue to inherit wealth accumulated over multiple generations stretching back into the slave holding 19th century, and white people continue to enjoy the side benefits of this wealth like a more favorable demographic distribution, access to colleges, schools, and (mostly for white males) professional networks. Black communities have also been locked into a cycle of poverty and ghetoizatino that is historic in origin.

Racism is not something that can be analyzed only in terms of the current momentary slice in history - it is something that is path dependent on prior racial inequalities. Those inequalities originating in slavery continue to benefit and privilege white people today, and continue to systematically disadvantage black people (and most specifically, those black people who are descended from slaves - black people descended from more recent African immigrants who were not brought up in those communities are effected somewhat differently.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yes I would support a movement for this reform. I don't support reparations for individuals - Obama, Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice, for example, should not be given the same money as the black people that suffer from the system and policies actively supported by these politicians. But I do think that the US government should give reparations in the form of massive investment into poor communities, in education programs for black students and so on. The US government has been slashing these things since the 80s and so I think an argument can be made for why this reform could be a good rallying cry for a new class-conscious civil rights movement.

Probably the reason their aren't many threads about reparations is that it is not really an active reform that people are fighting for, so it's sort of abstract to talk about reforms that are currently not really being organized around by anyone.

I don't remember much about what Marx said specifically about inheritance, but my guess is that the problem with it is not that money is given but that wealth created by society is held privately and then passed-down so that private control of wealth can continue.

So I think this is a strange way to think about reparations as an inheritance. If workers fight for back-wages are they fighting for an inheritance? Marx argued that investment capital is dead labor - by taking the means of production are workers collectively taking back their inheritance?


I don't think any reasonable amount will be paid as reparation by the present system. However, the oppressed black people are justified in demanding reparation in the form of money, free health-care and education etc. and all leftists should support their demand if not for anything else then for escalating class contradictions at least.


By the way, were a socialist revolution to happen, more resources would be allocated to certain places that have been previously neglected. That would have the same effect. So, ignoring theorizing about inheritance (even though you're trying to portray it as something it's clearly not), would you oppose allocating more funds to working class neighborhoods where minorities generally live? That's basically what it would be doing.

I believe the legal term for this would be reparations in kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

The wiki above says that this could be extended to former colonies (i.e., invoking the spirit of anti-colonialism). I oppose cash reparations, and reparations in kind could take multiple forms:

- Infrastructure investment
- Education and social security programs
- Subsidized trade for the less developed states to import necessary products at below-market prices and export other products at above-market prices – on top of their own state monopolies on foreign trade, general protectionism, interventionism, and other domestic development measures (http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-democratization-international-t146259/index.html)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'd be fine with reparations, the only issue is that some Americans have only come and gained citizenship in much more recent times. Should they have to contribute to reparations for something they cannot be linked to? I say, get the money from direct decendents of gringo slave owners if we are to play this reparations thing.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Also, some of my ancestors enslaved some of my other ancestors hence I'm racially in the majority amongst Mexicans. Should I follow that example and pay reparations to myself.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

"Discounting social class temporarily", umm, why? That's like talking about WWI, "but let's just disregard imperialism for a minute here".

Why should the government not give people that still suffer from past crimes today free money? How can you be a supporter of working class politics but not think that actions should be taken to improve the lives of working class black people? The optimal situation would obviously be giving everybody free money, but giving oppressed people free money would be a good start to that.

Past crimes that still affect people today. It's not remotely comparable to a rich father giving his children lots of inheritance. That's like saying that the government giving Native Americans back their land is giving them land based on some conservative idea inheritance. Which is absurd.

By the way, were a socialist revolution to happen, more resources would be allocated to certain places that have been previously neglected. That would have the same effect. So, ignoring theorizing about inheritance (even though you're trying to portray it as something it's clearly not), would you oppose allocating more funds to working class neighborhoods where minorities generally live? That's basically what it would be doing.

You're right, I wasn't thinking it through clearly. Thank you.

[Queercommie Girl]

Also, some of my ancestors enslaved some of my other ancestors hence I'm racially in the majority amongst Mexicans. Should I follow that example and pay reparations to myself.

Your ancestors were more enslaved than being slavers. Don't forget your Basque heritage!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Your ancestors were more enslaved than being slavers. Don't forget your Basque heritage!
The Basques are more so just occupied and oppressed and denied self determination.

[Queercommie Girl]

The Basques are more so just occupied and oppressed and denied self determination.

Yes, but thousands of years ago, the Basque were conquered and enslaved by the Indo-European-speaking Romans and other nomadic Indo-European groups.

Basque-like languages were once dominant throughout much of Europe, before the Indo-Europeans migrated into the region from West Asia.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

(1) How reparations is being presented here presupposes monetary value and wage labour. In a real Socialist or Communist revolution, reparations would no longer be necessary

(2) Just throwing money at people for historical crimes doesn't work. Some will be old and mature enough to invest it wisely, others will waste it away, and honestly there are a near infinite number of historical crimes for which we could give reparations, at which point you will have some who wisely used reparations to negate the crimes of the past, and others who are in the same class position that they were before the "reparations" but with nicer clothes and a faster car.

(3) Giving people property to make up for historical crimes can cause severe social and political problems with other groups (IE, conflict between Israelis and Palestinians) when what we need is solidarity that crosses racial and ethnic barriers.

(4) As Xochitl indicates, the story of people's heritage is far more complex than "This man descended from this victimized group, and this man didn't"

I like the idea of directly investing in communities with high levels of social, political or economic inequality in general, whether or not its causes are racial, sexist or religious.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think anyone is arguing for post-revolution reparations - it doesn't make sense. Also reparations to me are not:

1. Something that would be useful politically if say, the UN forced the US to pay reparations (as if that would even be a possibility). In other words, I am not interested in reparations as some money tossed to a passive population (although I wouldn't tell poor or working class people not to take it if, by some strange set of circumstances, the US suddenly decided to give reparations for some reason).

2. A punishment or repayment for some distant crime against a group of people. Sorry Irish, you were mistreated by the US but you are not currently oppressed for being Irish in the US and so I don't think Irish descendants should get reparations. Politically, I am more in support of reparations as a way to help build or support a movement against racism in the US that has a class-perspective. For the last 30 years the US ruling class has been pulling money out of services for poor and working class people - especially for oppressed groups and most sharply for black people. A civil rights movement that has reparations as a demand could help expose that and demonstrate that black poverty is not due to inferior culture (as argued by the right-wing) or bad study habits (as argued by Obama) but due to a concerted effort by the ruling class to roll-back previous reforms won from past struggles and push neoliberalism on the working class.

[gorillafuck]

You're right, I wasn't thinking it through clearly. Thank you.That's really respectable, man.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I don't think anyone is arguing for post-revolution reparations - it doesn't make sense.

Why wouldn't it? You are clearly referring to the "political revolution" here and not the social revolution.

[syndicat]

Also, some of my ancestors enslaved some of my other ancestors hence I'm racially in the majority amongst Mexicans. Should I follow that example and pay reparations to myself.


actually this is common among African-Americans as well. given the rampant practice of rape and sexual abuse of black women under slavery, many African-Americans are descended from both slaves and slave-owners.

but the issue should really be understood in terms of under-development of black people in the USA in the sense of starting from complete deprivation and being forced to do unskilled agricultural labor, there weren't efforts to provide systematic enhancement to education and skill development, and schools in black areas for generations are (and still are) worse than in other areas. the great majority of African-Americans are working class and face this situation with lesser preparation, and this is not just in schooling, but also in terms of the things that affect cognitive development between the ages of 2 and 4, where things like the education and work experience and skills of the parents have an effect on the early development of skills and knowledge among their children.

for example, in the '30s about 40 percent of African-Americans were still employed in agriculture in the south. in the '40s the planter elilte made a conscious decision to force many to leave, by mechanization. they were afraid that eventually blacks would win the right to vote and would take over government in black majority areas. but when they lost their jobs, no job retraining was provided. millions then migrated to cities in the north and west, but had no skills for an urban job market. the result was chronic high unemployment in black ghettos...structural unemployment. this is an example of systemic disinvestment in the black population.

it isn't just a question of reparations for slavery but also for the debt slavery and disenfranchisement and Jim Crow oppression that continued for a century after the Civil War. so things like free quality pre-schools for in poor neighborhoods, funds for community development such as money for worker cooperatives so that the jobs would be owned by that community thru the employees, and in general ways of increasing availability of remunerative jobs.

so the idea should not be thought of in terms of giving money to individuals but of investment in the people in a community. this is to make up for many generations of disinvestment.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think anyone is arguing for post-revolution reparations - it doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't it?Well, you're definitely right, as far as sending resources to areas and social groups that have been left to rot or repressed by capitalism, yes I definitely support doing that after a revolution. I guess I was sort of conceiving of "reparations" as something that need to be fought for and taken from a government when I wrote that.

[Invader Zim]

Why should the government not give people that still suffer from past crimes today free money? How can you be a supporter of working class politics but not think that actions should be taken to improve the lives of working class black people? The optimal situation would obviously be giving everybody free money, but giving oppressed people free money would be a good start to that.

The stumbling block here is that you are addressing the position with the current government in mind. However, the way the current government works is not to force those most guilty of maintaining racial oppression to cease or even pay for the system they have maintained. If such a payment were to be made, it would be done collectively through taxation, thus sparing those guilty of the worst of the oppression the bulk of payments and the disenfranchised working classes, regardless of ancestry or role in maintaining racial (indeed many forced to pay will also be victims of racism) oppression, will be expected to pick up the tab. Hardly an ideal solution.

[BlackMarx]

looking in the index of frequently discussed topics i was surprised i didn't see any threads about this, do you believe financial reperations to the decendents of slaves would be justified?
In the abstract and moral sense, yes. However, I think if Reparations were ever instituted, it would serve the purpose of legitamizing the Capitalist system to black Americans.

Me and my BCF (Best Comrade forever lmao), were discussing this awhile back. We came to the conclusion that if we ever led a radical/democratic revolutionary movement, that reparations would be the best method for the American ruling class to co-opt the movement. Because reparations (with required classes on fiscal responsibility and speculation) would try to legitimize the American Capitalist ideals to a disenfranchised people. I think electorally, the Democrats would push it (maybe even the Republicans), and the opposition would probably oppose it for the sake of political points with white Americans, a growing minority.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

actually this is common among African-Americans as well. given the rampant practice of rape and sexual abuse of black women under slavery, many African-Americans are descended from both slaves and slave-owners.
The difference is that amongst the Mexican population those of us who are of mixed blood are in the majority. People of either pure indigenous or pure euro-spaniard blood are a very small minority.

An off topic side note that popped into my mind: My hair texture looks very Moorish. I can thank another conquering and forced ethnic, religious, racial and cultural dominance for that one, right?

[BankHeist]

Absolutely.

And people who claim that the abolition of capitalism, will magically heal the wounds of racist American colonization are either clueless white folks, or complete idiots.