If you were the leader of the vanguard party, what would you do?

[Fulanito de Tal]

This is for those that believe the way to communism requires a vanguard party.

In order to increase discussions of possible methods to enact a Marxist-Leninist type revolution, I designed the following exercise.

Let's say that during and after a popular uprising, your leadership resulted in your party being the dominant force in the state that you are in. Your state is vulnerable, but you know the US or any other county will not start a full out war as they are too preoccupied with other matters. However, you know they may use the CIA or similar type agencies to ruin your revolution. For example, other countries may fund or instigate a civil war (like Russia), or refugees from your state may find support from a neighboring county to conduct a layperson's invasion (Playa Giron [Pay of Pigs]) and carry out terrorist attacks.

Every other variable of the setting can be manipulated by you, but keep in mind that making them too beneficial or fantastic will hinder the applicability of your methods.

Now that you are in charge of the vanguard party, answer the following questions.

What would be your short-term goals (1-5 years)? Medium-term (5-15 years)? Long term (15+years)?

What policies would you attempt to enact in order to meet these goals?

What would be your plan to enact your policies?

Things to consider: government structure, constitution, code of ethics, economical structure, etc.

Answer as many questions as you wish.

[Widerstand]

Short Term Goal: Tell the masses they need us.
Medium Term Goal: Impose Social Democracy, extent state repression.
Long Term Goal: Open up for rampant neoliberalism and anti-worker policies, don't give a shit cos I be cruisin:

http://img.nauticexpo.fr/images_ne/photo-g/bateau-a-moteur-motor-yacht-a-fly-63020.jpg

[Kalifornia]

This is for those that believe the way to communism requires a vanguard party.

In order to increase discussions of possible methods to enact a Marxist-Leninist type revolution, I designed the following exercise.

Let's say that during and after a popular uprising, your leadership resulted in your party being the dominant force in the state that you are in. Your state is vulnerable, but you know the US or any other county will not start a full out war as they are too preoccupied with other matters. However, you know they may use the CIA or similar type agencies to ruin your revolution. For example, other countries may fund or instigate a civil war (like Russia), or refugees from your state may find support from a neighboring county to conduct a layperson's invasion (Playa Giron [Pay of Pigs]) and carry out terrorist attacks.

Every other variable of the setting can be manipulated by you, but keep in mind that making them too beneficial or fantastic will hinder the applicability of your methods.

Now that you are in charge of the vanguard party, answer the following questions.

What would be your short-term goals (1-5 years)? Medium-term (5-15 years)? Long term (15+years)?

What policies would you attempt to enact in order to meet these goals?

What would be your plan to enact your policies?

Things to consider: government structure, constitution, code of ethics, economical structure, etc.

Answer as many questions as you wish.

I would make sure I used my term to increase the power of the people in society, and lower the states, I would do my best to solve any contradictions and would not abuse my power.

I would promote anti patriachy campaigns and promote proletarian culture like the arts.

I would live in a normal house on a normal street and probably also go to college and university, I would want to become a teacher when I get voted out.

My longterm plan would be to make sure beauracracy never reared its ugly head.

I would suport the councils decisions that would be made by the workers, and subserviate the government to their demands.

I would hopefully then leave government, and get work as a teacher or maybe youth worker.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Move to the south of france.

[Kalifornia]

Move to the south of france.

Avakian it up HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

ITS ALL PLAYED OUT!!

[theblackmask]

Abolish the vanguard party.

[Toppler]

1. Nationalize and restore agriculture and the key industries,
2. Popularize not-dumbed-down culture.
3. Institute worker self-management.
4. Abolish discriminatory laws.
5. Support sustainable development and slowly reduce the role of state in affairs.

[Rusty Shackleford]

honest answer though.

Short term goals: restructuring of agriculture and infrastructure to better meet the needs of the masses. abolishing self-killing seeds, changing the types of crops to restore soil(im actually worried about the situation of soil in the US) and also work on economic logistics. especially electronic communication and control of the economy. information is power. the obvious demands of socialized health care, collevtive bargaining rights, workers direct control of factories, creation of macro-economy management systems, guaranteed housing, free education. the whole lot of it.

if basic needs are not met within that period, people will become disillusioned, disheartened, and dismayed at the chaos that ensued due to an incompetent leadership. beginning of reorganization of military, destruction of entire nuclear, chemical and biological stockpiles(if there is no major imperialist power in the world to challenge socialism.

5-15 years?

creating a more self-sustaining economy. pump up agricultural and energy research.
water management research, desalination plants on the coasts, rennovating infrastructure, especially information infrastructure like cables and so on. wilderness conservation efforts. reduction of military size, creation of regional military councils for defense, national defense coordination. ultimately the abolition of the national standing army in favor of a part-time national guard type system. (if favorable conditions exist)

research into various major illnesses like cancer, Alzheimers, HIV AIDS,and so on.

long term?

Revamped space program. the future of humanity lies in space :lol: we shall meet the star child and evolve to the next level for our species!

seriously though, space. shits exciting. also, deep terrestrial and submarine research as well

ultimately, more workers control/self sustaining economy. abolition of coercive forces and so on..

i dunno.

[Wanted Man]

What does this entire thread have to do with "Marxist-Leninist type revolution" anyway? The thread seems to stem from a complete misunderstanding of, err, every subject that it's supposed to discuss.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not trying to be a judgemental prick here, but then at least try to learn a bit about the subjects instead of designing pointless exercises.

There's also nothing wrong with people trying to answer seriously, but the entire exercise is based on misunderstandings. There aren't many people here who think that an individual should have the kind of absolute power that's described here. If I had that power, I would probably make a complete mess of everything. Most people are only talented at a few things, never mind having expertise in them. We all have our own uses, and anyone who thinks he can make a comprehensive blueprint is fooling himself.

That's the most realistic answer that I can give to all the questions from the OP. Apart from the usual smartass, "I'd give all power to teh workerz and everything would be ok!"

[Kalifornia]

What does this entire thread have to do with "Marxist-Leninist type revolution" anyway? The thread seems to stem from a complete misunderstanding of, err, every subject that it's supposed to discuss.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not trying to be a judgemental prick here, but then at least try to learn a bit about the subjects instead of designing pointless exercises.

There's also nothing wrong with people trying to answer seriously, but the entire exercise is based on misunderstandings. There aren't many people here who think that an individual should have the kind of absolute power that's described here. If I had that power, I would probably make a complete mess of everything. Most people are only talented at a few things, never mind having expertise in them. We all have our own uses, and anyone who thinks he can make a comprehensive blueprint is fooling himself.

That's the most realistic answer that I can give to all the questions from the OP. Apart from the usual smartass, "I'd give all power to teh workerz and everything would be ok!"

wutt?

[Wanted Man]

wutt?

http://www.guitarsandaudio.com/extras/shite/Kyles_Mom.gif

What? :confused:

[Kalifornia]

http://www.guitarsandaudio.com/extras/shite/Kyles_Mom.gif

What? :confused:


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwLT0JXmBIHTy2Fks3ZCmN8skQ28rj9 XY4lYdR7IZW9y9Zj7k_
Seriously why have you had a go at the OP

[Fulanito de Tal]

There aren't many people here who think that an individual should have the kind of absolute power that's described here. If I had that power, I would probably make a complete mess of everything. Most people are only talented at a few things, never mind having expertise in them. We all have our own uses, and anyone who thinks he can make a comprehensive blueprint is fooling himself.

By Marxist-Leninist type revolution, I meant the establishment of a vanguard party to lead the proletariats in class consciousness and revolution. The background to this is that proletariats in many states are too occupied with tasks to gain class consciousness and learn the material needed to effectively perform a communist revolution.

I did not mention absolute power. In the exercise, you are the leader. Being the leader does not necessarily provide you with absolute power.

I stated that the variables of the setting can be manipulated, but doing so in an incredible manner may hinder your outlined methods applicability.

An assumption of the exercise is that as a leader, you should have goals set out. The meet these goals, a leader should have policies and plan.

[Fawkes]

I'd use my position as the head of the state to aid in the withering away of the state.




...wait :confused:

[Os Cangaceiros]

great thread

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

The party would do the usual "power to the workers" stuff, but by the end of my term I'd make sure that it would completely disappear and shift power to workers democracy.

[BIG BROTHER]

This is for those that believe the way to communism requires a vanguard party.

In order to increase discussions of possible methods to enact a Marxist-Leninist type revolution, I designed the following exercise.

Let's say that during and after a popular uprising, your leadership resulted in your party being the dominant force in the state that you are in. Your state is vulnerable, but you know the US or any other county will not start a full out war as they are too preoccupied with other matters. However, you know they may use the CIA or similar type agencies to ruin your revolution. For example, other countries may fund or instigate a civil war (like Russia), or refugees from your state may find support from a neighboring county to conduct a layperson's invasion (Playa Giron [Pay of Pigs]) and carry out terrorist attacks.

Every other variable of the setting can be manipulated by you, but keep in mind that making them too beneficial or fantastic will hinder the applicability of your methods.

Now that you are in charge of the vanguard party, answer the following questions.



A revolution is not defined by Tendency, but by the social classes that lead it.

Anyways to answer your questions.

What would be your short-term goals (1-5 years)? Medium-term (5-15 years)? Long term (15+years)?

Spread the Revolution internationally and fight the reaction. Promote education of the proletariat as a means of equipping them with all the knowledge necessary to run society.

I would also argue that the production and distribution food, clothes, education and shelter should be prioritized in the Worker's state as the Revolution is spreading.

This should be of course done in the context of a workers state were my party would have no other privilege than the organic legitimacy and influence that comes with "leading" a successful Revolution.

What policies would you attempt to enact in order to meet these goals?

Push for the mass creation of schools, coordinating peasants how own small plots of land, with collective farms in order to mass produce food, while also compensating with peasants by meeting their needs.

Eliminate unemployment by putting all the unemployed in factories meant to distribute clothing for all those who need it and construction crews to solve housing problems.

Coordinate with other Revolutionary parties and mass organizations internationally and provide them resources.

What would be your plan to enact your policies?

Things to consider: government structure, constitution, code of ethics, economical structure, etc.

No specific government structure, but it would be some sort of bottom up society were the major industries and land was managed by those who work it, and the political decisions would be made by workers collectives.

Food is already mass produced in many countries and in many others agriculture is not developed because farmers can't compete against corporate giants from foreign countries, so the food issue would be just a matter of ensuring those who toil the land finally get their needs met, get the tools they need and then just have an institution to democratically organize the re-distribution of food.

For the clothing and the shelter, another mass institution perhaps ran by the unemployed themselves would be in charge of collecting the people to create such projects and it would be accountable to the workers collectives(councils, soviets, etc whatever you wanna call them)

For the spread of the revolution I would make the case to the rest of the workers that devoting resources and energy to spreading the revolution would not only benefit other workers but would be the only way we can achieve socialism anywhere including our own state.

Answer as many questions as you wish.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'd use my position as the head of the state to aid in the withering away of the state.




...wait :confused:
ultimately yes.

that should be the long term goal of all leninists/state-socialists.

first though, revolutions must be secured, socialism built, and imperialism defeated.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Dismiss/abolish parliament and such power holding institutions (see: White House/Presidency/Prime Minister/etc.) and hand power down to the Socialist Industrial Unions.

Oh snap, in for the win with the DeLeonist strategy. BOOMSHAKALAKA.


If I had to deal with this vanguard party situation, I would like to have a lot of decentralized and organic movements happening, but of course having the state assist with anything necessary. Workers centers, free healthcare clinics and hospitals, easy access to higher education; the whole shabang. Of course, creating a new work environment where the workers have a voice and true democracy.
I don't really have much to say because it's probably the same as you, right?

Oh, and find me my own Trotsky to help with the guaranteed Kronsdapt 2.0 :laugh:

[Leninade]

I'm going to plant the White House lawn with tomatoes and corn, I'm going to put solar panels on it, and I'm gonna walk around barefoot with a tie-dye t-shirt and old bluejeans. You will address me as hippie in chief and my motto will be grow your own. I'd double my salary and give 2/3s of it to charity to try to set an example.

I will declare it a democratic socialist state, rewrite the laws, serve two terms in office normally, and then wait for things to come to fruition.

The zeroeth order of business will be removing laws I feel are distasteful. Marijuana should be legal and so should prostitution. That would be a nice boost to our economy, legal pot means the drug lords suffer, legal prostitution means they now have unions and worker's rights.

First order of business would be changing how campaign finance works so the government is allowed to do something other than whatever business leaders want. To run for office, you'd get a fixed amount from a public tax-funded pool and who winds up in office will be decided mostly through debates. If the lobbyists whine about their first amendment right to indirectly run everybody's lives I'll remember I'm dictator for the day and banish those who doth protest too much to northern Montana.

Second, I think I'd mandate that a percentage of the budget goes to R&D spending in the constitution and declare an education to be a right. Why? Because I have a crafty plan to make Marx's dream work flawlessly, and if it doesn't work my country will at least be on the top of the economic dogpile. Areas of interest and special funding will be energy, materials science, small-scale fab labs for developing countries and nanotechnology.

Third, while I'm in office I will promote green energy and organic farming. Anything that can be decentralized will be decentralized. Not decentralized in the sense of private corporations fighting to control your food and electricity; that's worse. Freedom is not having to give a damn about private companies because you've got your own electricity. I try to really get my message out there so people imitate me. You would not live in isolation; if your crops fail or your solar panels break your neighbors would support you for a time.

Now I retire and wait. What am I waiting for? For technology to catch up. I want some sort of individually-usable nanotechnology that will eat scrap metal, rocks and toxic waste and spit out medicine and tractor parts. It should also be semi-Von Neumann and clone itself with a little bit of human help. If no one ever absolutely has to buy something and everyone is capable of producing as much as they need or more then greed and desperation are obsolete.

This is probably heresy, but the goal is not to just overthrow the very top of the social pyramid. That's easy, albeit usually temporary. The goal is to fundamentally change things in such a way that the mechanics that produce social pyramids are no longer there. Something like pure communism will evolve naturally once greed is unlinked from survival, and in time the democratic socialist state I created will begin to shrink. Realistically it will never completely disappear because a few people will continue to invent new reasons to be selfish and petty indefinitely and someone will need to fight back when they do, but it can safely shrink to the bare bones now that there's a whole lot less to regulate.

[The Vegan Marxist]

No offense, but I find the OP's question to be a bit too idealist for me to really give a legitimate answer to. Yes, I believe in a vanguard party, but a vanguard party acts upon the present conditions surrounding said party. That's the sole point of materialism and its contradiction to that of idealism.

For example, North Korea's conditions are a lot different from that of Cuba's conditions. Hence why they're both acting upon different ways and matters in order to handle themselves.

I mean, if we lived in a predominantly socialist globe, I'm sure the OP's question of what to do under a vanguard party would be a lot more flexible than that of what today's reality tells us. But again, that's the sole difference between materialism and idealism. So I can't really logically give an answer without knowing the conditions that are in surrounding first.

[StalinFanboy]

Move to the south of france.

And make sweet, sweet Glorious love to all lovely new lady recruits.

[Kalifornia]

and make sweet, sweet glorious love to all lovely new lady recruits.

horizontal recruitment ftw!

[Chambered Word]

I was going to agree with TVM except for the crap about North Korea/Cuba. The idea of a 'Marxist-Leninist' revolution in itself is utterly idealist. Workers' consciousness isn't something you can just mould to fit your interpretation of Stalin's writings.

[hatzel]

Something tells me that this whole thread will soon be, as the old adage goes, 'closed and trashed'. Not least because it's in neither learning nor chit-chat, so it's in the wrong place.

[ZeroNowhere]

"The thing to be done at any definite given moment of the future, the thing immediately to be done, depends of course entirely on the given historical conditions in which one has to act. But this question is in the clouds and therefore is really the statement of a phantom problem to which the only answer can be--the criticism of the question itself. No equation can be solved unless the elements of its solution are involved in its terms. [...] The general demands of the French bourgeoisie laid down before 1789 were roughly just the same, mutatis mutandis as the first immediate demands of the proletariat are pretty uniformly to-day in all countries with capitalist production. But had any eighteenth-century Frenchman the faintest idea a priori beforehand of the way in which the demands of the French bourgeoisie would be accomplished? The doctrinaire and necessarily fantastic anticipations of the programme of action for a revolution of the future only divert us from the struggle of the present. The dream that the end of the world was at hand inspired the early Christians in their struggle with the Roman Empire and gave them confidence in victory. Scientific insight into the inevitable disintegration of the dominant order of society continually proceeding before our eyes, and the ever-growing passion into which the masses are scourged by the old ghosts of government--while at the same time the positive development of the means of production advances with gigantic strides--all this is a sufficient guarantee that with the moment of the outbreak of a real proletarian revolution there will also be given the conditions (though these are certain not to be idyllic) of its next immediate modus operandi."

In any case, I think that one of the first things that the proletariat shall be forced to learn on taking political action is that their movement cannot have 'leaders', but only functionaries. The vanguard of the proletariat will probably not be largely communist initially, either way.


No offense, but I find the OP's question to be a bit too idealist for me to really give a legitimate answer to. Yes, I believe in a vanguard party, but a vanguard party acts upon the present conditions surrounding said party. That's the sole point of materialism and its contradiction to that of idealism.No, it isn't. I agree that the question is problematic, I don't agree that we should chuck around the word 'idealism' whenever it sounds nice.

[Kalifornia]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQF85IFqa5MxOSV8HdIDZa0mn8RCb9xQ jhvdxAUA7f2uA1T77C4Jg

DO this in crowded areas.:tt1:

then when I retire write a book about it

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSJ_Lv5DSdFlmCLA9mb8KK2cmhPVoCz HBqaQ3Up49HjHl1IPa7

[Widerstand]

I'd use my position as the head of the state to aid in the withering away of the state.




...wait :confused:

Surely if there's one thing leftists don't need help on, it's how to reduce themselves to irrelevance. We've done a great job at that for a few decades now.

Just like the vanguard communists in the USSR worked wonders to reduce themselves to irrelevance and capitalism.

(*ducks and runs*)

[Magón]

Short Term Goal: Tell the masses they need us.
Medium Term Goal: Impose Social Democracy, extent state repression.
Long Term Goal: Open up for rampant neoliberalism and anti-worker policies, don't give a shit cos I be cruisin:

http://img.nauticexpo.fr/images_ne/photo-g/bateau-a-moteur-motor-yacht-a-fly-63020.jpg

That's my yacht, but we can cruise together. :cool:

[Crux]

I would move this thread to chit-chat.
Also: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=green_desert

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Whatever North Korea did, cause I wanna be remembered as a God by masses of delusional people.

[robbo203]

By Marxist-Leninist type revolution, I meant the establishment of a vanguard party to lead the proletariats in class consciousness and revolution. The background to this is that proletariats in many states are too occupied with tasks to gain class consciousness and learn the material needed to effectively perform a communist revolution


That being the case - that the working class are not communist minded - there is only one thing the so called vanguard party can do. That is continue administering existing society - namely capitalism.

What will happen then? Since capitalism can only be run in the interests of capital and therfore against the interests of wage labour, what that means is that over time, even if the vanguard was motivated by the very best of intentions, it would become more and more anti-working class in its outlook and practice. An example of how the way to hell is paved with good intentions is the early British Labour Party. It claimed amongst other things to want to distribute wealth to ordinary working people but under several Labour administrations the rich got even richer. Ask yourself why.

The lesson? Vanguardism of any kind is to be completely rejected. It can only ever result in the reinforcement of existing capitalist society

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm not a Marxist-Leninist, so maybe my answer is gonna be slightly different.

I would abolish my own position and create an equal leadership committee, with a rotating chair(small 'c' chair, not Chairman Mao 'chairman'). I would probably then use my position on the committee to push for revolution in a similar way to many other Marxists, though i'd certainly aim for a more Menshevik-type party. Not quite a mass party, but one that extends beyond the professional revolutionary cadres and has representation from all non-ruling sections of society.

[Hexen]

That being the case - that the working class are not communist minded - there is only one thing the so called vanguard party can do. That is continue administering existing society - namely capitalism.

What will happen then? Since capitalism can only be run in the interests of capital and therfore against the interests of wage labour, what that means is that over time, even if the vanguard was motivated by the very best of intentions, it would become more and more anti-working class in its outlook and practice. An example of how the way to hell is paved with good intentions is the early British Labour Party. It claimed amongst other things to want to distribute wealth to ordinary working people but under several Labour administrations the rich got even richer. Ask yourself why.

The lesson? Vanguardism of any kind is to be completely rejected. It can only ever result in the reinforcement of existing capitalist society

Then what do you suggest then as a alternative?

[robbo203]

Then what do you suggest then as a alternative?


Recognise the possibility of creating an alternative to capitalism is strictly determined by the extent to which workers consciously want and understand such an alternative. So never try to overstep these limits by rashly and foolishy seeking to rush ahead and grab power in advance of the majority becoming socialist minded. Because if you do will have no alternative but to administer capitalism and hence inevitably "betray" the very people you claimed to represent - the workers

The only realistic alternative is thus to expand the scope and extent of communist consciousness within the working class (and as part of the working class not separate from it) to the point at which socialist-minded workers are the clear majorityy. Nothing short of this can ever succeed in bringing about an alternative to capitalism

[Chambered Word]

Whatever North Korea did, cause I wanna be remembered as a God by masses of delusional people.

I find the idea that the workers are all delusional to be totally reactionary and your repeating it is really not helping the case against the DPRK's imagined socialism and only feeds the trolls.

[chegitz guevara]

I'd overthrow the government.

[Kalifornia]

I would immediately turn over power to the workers, let them decide what to do, because isn't that the whole purpose of the revolution?. Then, I would solidify our network so that we could have confidence in the fact that we could re-overthrow the government if it turns against the people again. See, revolutionaries for all their merits probably aren't very good at running countries, they are good at overthrowing bad governments though, so that's what we would do, build up our strength as we work and await the counterrevolutions.

How would you relinquish power to the workers, then make sure of anything, seeing as you would no longer have power:confused:

[Blackscare]

How would you relinquish power to the workers, then make sure of anything, seeing as you would no longer have power:confused:

The same way they overthrew the government in the first place?

[Tomhet]

I'd probably get myself nice things, don't any of you lie and you fucking know you would to.

[S.Artesian]

Smuggle myself and all my comrades into Egypt.

[human strike]

I'd change the colour of the flag and then I'd vanguard the fuck out of that shit.

[Red Bayonet]

Short term: Kick out everyone not of working class background
Establish a security service, to pinpoint and kick out US Army/police fusion cell operatives.
Begin immediate organizing among the homeless, the poor, and the unemployed.
Long term: I take-a da fifth ammendment! Capisce?

[Rss]

I'd get some tanks into the streets and children's playgrounds. You know, obsolete models to serve as hang-around places for youth and jungle gyms for little kids. Having some tanks around is always welcome.

[the last donut of the night]

this is definitely going in the greatest threads on revleft thread in chit-chat.

also, leftists with delusions of power, how surprising

[Widerstand]

also, leftists with delusions of power, how surprising

Oh you anti-authoritarians with your authoritarian anti-ness :rolleyes:

[Red Bayonet]

Ida makem an offer dey cant refuse!

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwLT0JXmBIHTy2Fks3ZCmN8skQ28rj9 XY4lYdR7IZW9y9Zj7k_
Seriously why have you had a go at the OP
because its a stupid thread.